Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement

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Important notes:

For a request to succeed, either

(i) the clear and substantial consensus of (a) uninvolved administrators at AE or (b) uninvolved editors at AN or

(ii) a passing motion of arbitrators at ARCA

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Southasianhistorian8

Latest comment: 9 days ago15 comments4 people in discussion

No action. Everyone should keep in mind that within contentious topics, you must edit carefully and constructively, refrain from disrupting the encyclopedia, and: adhere to the purposes of Wikipedia, comply with all applicable policies and guidelines, and follow editorial and behavioural best practice. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:25, 7 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Southasianhistorian8

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: GhostOfDanGurney (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 03:11, 26 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

User against whom enforcement is requested: Southasianhistorian8 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: WP:ARBIPA

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

00:22, 2024 October 26 Raises temperature of an existing talk page discussion discussion with multiple personal attacks, accuses me of "preemptive[ly] poisoning the well", of "nearing WP:BULLYING conduct" and "trying to muffle Indian viewpoints and opinions".
00:38, 2024 October 26 Ignores WP:ONUS to restore content that was removed without first getting consensus to restore the content. Continues the "muzzle" PA against me in the edit summary.
01:39, 2024 October 26 Second revert in an hour, reverts my attempt at a compromise with further personal attacks/WP:ABF in the edit summary about my motives ("and intentionally caricutrarizing [sic] his quote".
01:41, 2024 October 26 Gives me a level-4 (!) template further accusing my attempt at compromise as "WP:POINTy" (aka disruptive editing).

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

20:47, 2022 May 30 Indeff'd for abusing multiple accounts in the area of conflict as per Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Suthasianhistorian8/Archive. Unblocked in December 2022 following a standard offer.
19:06, 2021 November 11 48hrs for edit warring in the area of conflict.

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 16:31, 2021 November 27 (see the system log linked to above).

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

SAH appears to have little to no good faith towards me, making PAs and airing old dirty laundry in an article talk page discussion which prior to their arrival had remained focused on content(Permlink to version of talk page prior SAH posting). They take issue with my use of the phrases "sour grapes" and "cherry picked" when referring to content in my edit summaries, but then turn around and make PAs and aspersions in theirs. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 03:11, 26 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Frankly, I'm here because I don't know how else to respond to "repeated-PAs-on-CTOP-article-talkpage-into-level-4-template" and if the statement in defense of evidence of PAs being made is to exceed their wordcount entirely on the other party, then that is pretty clear WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality that is not conductive to editing on this project. SAH's ignores their own behaviour entirely, bringing up misassumptions about stale behaviour, either twisting my words or outright fabricating them.

but you omit that you copied content ~~that I had written~~ in that article into Khalistan movement without attribution,[1] so I don't know why you're all of a sudden questioning my sincerity in there? - I restored content rather than adding it for the first time which I believed I had.[2]

"Ghost, in his own words..." not only is this stale, this is an outright lie. For it to be "in my words" I'd have to have actually said the alleged statement, which I did not nor did I even attempt to infer.

Reporting an unsolicited apology is a low blow, doubly so that it's stale.

SAH also accuses others of POV-pushing[3], so mentioning here about my general comment on how "pro-India skewing" should be a PA doesn't seem fair. They also call out others for not heeding WP:ONUS [4] so their failure to do so themself tonight is also dubious. These two diffs also happen to have both occurred at Khalsa, where SAH was trying to restore content critical of that Sikh community.

I believe, given the above information that a topic ban from Sikhism, the Khalistan movement and related topics, broadly construed for SAH be considered. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 06:07, 26 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

@ScottishFinnishRadish: Thanks for your time. My main issue that led me here is that yes, this was 100% a content dispute prior to SAH entering the dispute with diff #1 in which SAH wants me to discuss content, but with an entire first paragraph dedicated to a character assassination/repeated PAs towards me, then giving me a level 4 template on my talk page in diff #4 threatening to have me blocked for attempting a compromise on some of the content.

The Canada-India row relates to the murder of a Sikh man in Canada who advocated for an independent Sikh state in India. Canada has accused India of involvement in the murder. Pages related to the row have been attacked by IP- and low-edit-count-users, often adding content which pushes the POV of the Indian government

SAH's contributions show that they are a SPA with a focus on Sikh topics. They are heavily involved in removing content that they see as pro-Sikh,[5] and adding content that they see as anti-Sikh.[6], including content directly related to the Canada-India row.[7]

As an SPA (who has also taken the Standard Offer, which includes point 3), SAH should take care to not turn content disputes in their chosen topic area (which they are aware has CTOP status) personal by accusing those they disagree with of poisoning the well/bullying/etc in a post in which they are asking that person to engage on content. Rather, this can be seen as trying to intimidate another editor (me) out of the topic area, and I hope that isn't the case. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 17:23, 4 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

1) What I should have done differently was explain to the editor (which, as you point out, only had four edits) how I felt that the content that they added amounted to "pro-India sour grapes", and with time to look back, acknowledge that I should have done this without using the phrase in question. However, SAH accusing me of "poisoning the well" on the article talk page in response to this is much worse because it is a direct PA directed at another editor at a venue which should be 100% focused on content. If SAH had an issue with my conduct, a message (NOT a template) on my talk page laying it out would have been much more appreciated.

2) Your "diff 2" is identical to your "diff 1" so I assume you're talking about this in response to this? The comments I added were said in this source which I mistakenly forgot to add and had been reverted and templated before I realized that error. Adding quotes verbatim is a common practice in Canadian politics articles (I point to Pierre Poilievre as an example), especially when content is disputed, so if it's against policy, fine, but again, a level-4 template is unjustified as a first warning. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 19:40, 4 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[8]

Discussion concerning Southasianhistorian8

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Southasianhistorian8

This is a completely unnecessary escalation, which I believe to be an extension of Ghost's firm convictions that Wikipedia ought to amplify pro-Canadian narratives and vitiate Canada's opponents. The bizarre thing about this conflict is that I'm a Canadian citizen myself, and have been living in Canada for over 95% of my life. My stance is that Wikipedia should not overtly amplify/muzzle pro-Canadian or pro-Indian narratives respectively, but neutrally explain both sides' arguments.

Inflammatory edit summaries on 2022 Conservative Party leadership election-it's really something when Brian Lilley of all people is calling you out on your conspiracy BS, rmv garbage, Baber's another one who's gone down the conspiracy rabbit hole, using a juvenile nickname for a political candidate.

Posted ridiculous, inflammatory content on his user page ("NEVER VOTE CONSERVATIVE FUCK THE CONVOY Resisting the Christo-fascist takeover of North America") and incited unnecessary arguments on the 2022 leadership election t/p-[9], yet has the audacity to scold others for affronting his biases and convictions.

One the page Air India Flight 182, Ghost, was removing hard facts from the article on the basis that the edits affronted his pro-Canadian sensibilites-[10], contravening Wikipedia's policies on NOTCENSORED. He then extensively edit-warred with numerous editors, yet dishes out the same accusations against others-[11]

He then basically admitted to following a user whom he was engaged in a dispute with, and left him a message on Twitter-[12]. It's fair to infer that the message he left was likely antagonistic in nature, given the heated edit war that preceded and his need to give an apology.

On the page Hardeep Singh Nijjar, Ghost was tacitly vitiating a Globe and Mail report, which included some fairly unsavoury details about the subject at hand. Notable examples include this edit in which he removed details which were clearly written in the article. Here he added a disingenuous descriptor that would make it appear as though the relationship between Dhaliwal, an arrested associate of Nijjar's, and some mutual associates who admitted that Nijjar was involved in clandestine activities, was based on hearsay, contrary to the report's tone. Here, he disingenuously attributed the descriptor "un-credible" to testimonies from people in India's custody to the Globe report, even though the Globe report itself attributed this claim to a Canadian-Sikh organization

Remarkably, while Ghost admitted to having a pro-Canadian bias, he regularly scolds others for "pro- India skewing", which should be regarded as a personal attack. While I did agree with some of Ghost's edits, his edit summaries, in which he was unnecessarily interjecting his disdain for "Indian narratives" left a grating impression on me. This is in addition to Ghost's slow edit warring on the page (yet ironically he accuses me of the same thing).

Here he removed an edit of mine in which I added a relevant view of a prominent Indian diplomat, accusing me of cherry-picking and adding a claim without evidence (a personal attack which instigated this whole conflict), even though the claim was attributed and the Wikipedia page itself contains numerous claims from Canadian officials, whom as of yet have not yet publicly disclosed pertinent evidence.

[13]- Here, he replaced my sentence which was neutrally worded and attributed, and replaced it with an obvious caricature of Verma's quote in a not so thinly veiled attempt to undermine India's position. He used this article, despite not citing it correctly, in which an interview transcript was provided below. It should be noted first and foremost that an interview transcript is a primary source, and the quote "I also know that some of these Khalistani extremists and terrorists are deep assets of CSIS. So I'm giving that accusation again; I'm not giving you an evidence.", or a summary or analysis of the quote was not provided beyond the transcript, hence rendering it unusable for inclusion in Wikipedia as per WP:PRIMARY. Secondly, if you read beyond that quote, it's clear that Verma was making the point that Canadian officials had not provided evidence implicating India's involvement in the murder, and he was basically using the same logic against them. It was an undeniable and objective violation of WP:NPOV, and it justified a harsh warning.

I also suspect that the last diff was GhostofDanGurney trying to bait me into reverting what was an obviously bad edit, so he could entrap me and report me. The diffs above are the tip of the iceberg, but I believe it is demonstrably obvious that GhostofDanGurney is far, far too aggressive and juvenile for Wikipedia.

Ghost has once again levied a false allegation against me, claiming that I copied content written by him on Hardeep Singh Nijjar to the Khalistan movement-This is an outright and outrageous lie. The paragraph starting with "According to a Globe and Mail report published one year after Nijjar's death," was my own summary of the Globe report, it was not written by Ghost. I was the one who originally added the following content to the Nijjar page right after the Globe came out-"The report further claims that some Canadian security experts did not believe India's claims about him, remarking that there was inadequate evidence to arrest Nijjar and that India had a "reputation for torqueing evidence to fit with political objective". This was done well before GhostofDanGurney's modifications.

Ghost is basically trying to kick me off a topic area where I've helped counter vandalism and POV pushing for the past 2 years, all because I disagreed with him and objected to his persistent personal attacks and rude edit summaries. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 06:26, 26 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Admins, I apologize if I went over the word limit as I have zero experience in A/E, but I strongly request you to take action against Ghost's allegation that I plagiarized his work. For Christ's sake, June comes before July, no? Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 06:57, 26 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

@ScottishFinnishRadish:, thank you for your response.

With regards to GhostofDanGurney labelling me a SPA, it is important to note that I did make mistakes during my early time here on Wikipedia, no denying that, but I think context is crucial. Literally a week or so into my joining Wikipedia in 2021, another SPA called HaughtonBrit through his account MehmoodS began hounding me to an extreme degree, provoking me into frivolous content disputes, essentially just trying to make my time on Wikipedia as hellish as possible so he could perpetuate his relentless Sikh nationalist views. The harassment from that sockmaster only just recently abated after numerous SPAs were blocked from 2023-late 2024. How would any other editor feel if they were being stalked and harassed for 3 years straight?

This topic area, because it's unfamiliar to a lot of people, has a major, major problem with POV pushing, including fabricating claims to make it appear as if the Sikh religion militarily dominated other groups; the POV spans articles about battles in the 1600s up to the recent Insurgency in Punjab.It also includes the pushing of Hinduphobia and Islamophobia, particularly pushing anti-Afghan views and articles (whom the Sikhs fought for a period of time), and basically publishing hagiographies of certain religious figures through poor sourcing or other unsavoury methods.

I'm not claiming that I'm perfect but I do tend to carefully analyze sources and their reliability and only include content into pages once I'm confident that the source is high quality and is somewhat DUE. The diff in which GoDG claims I added content critical of the Sikh community-[14] is sourced through a prominent university press and the CBC, so I don't see a problem there, though I'm willing to engage on the t/p.

Regarding the C-I diplomatic row article, I do acknowledge that my initial response on the t/p and level 4 warning (the latter was unintentional as I have a hard time navigating the Twinkle box for warnings) probably wasn't the right way to go about things, but I was upset that Ghost made personal attacks against me in his edit summary, claiming I was cherry-picking, and I believe Ghost was using unnecessary edit summaries beforehand as well. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 18:08, 4 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

As I stated in my ending bullet point above, the quote GhostofDanGurney used I'm not giving you any evidence of that was found in the CTV's article interview transcript, not in the main body of the article. Including a conclusion/implication from a selective quote in an interview transcript constitutes WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH, because we have to rely on a reputable, secondary source to aggregate the information from the interview and concisely present the relevant information that hopefully does not misrepresent what was said and analyzes any statements through fact-checking. If the quote was in the main body of the article, it would've been a different story. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 11:31, 5 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

I striked some of my commentary on the t/p as it wasn't the right way to go about things. Also striked the level 4 warning on Ghost's t/p. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 12:41, 7 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by Srijanx22

Canada–India diplomatic row has been created just today and needs improvement. The highlighted disputes should be handled on the talk page without either of the users commenting on each other. It would be better if they can get along. I don't see any need for sanctions as of yet. Srijanx22 (talk) 09:46, 26 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Southasianhistorian8

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I'm looking into this now, but there's a lot to dig into. I'm not a fan of the level 4 warning, or a lot of the language used, but much of this seems to be a content dispute. This edit linked in the original report is interpretation of a primary source, but you're transgressing beyond reason isn't the right response. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:07, 28 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
A lot of this looks to be a content dispute, albeit a heated one with some less than ideal behavior. Maybe it is because of some of my unfamiliarity with the topic, but I'm not seeing any obvious POV pushing from the editor reported, or GoDG. I'm not a fan of pro-India sour grapes, but that was also a revert of what looks to me like POV pushing (even with bold text to show what you should be mad about) from an editor with four edits. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:34, 4 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

GhostOfDanGurney, diff 1 contains some pointed (more so than I'd like) commentary, but that was after your characterization of other edits as pro-India sour grapes. Is your use of that phrasing any better or worse than I want to point out that it is unacceptable to cast aspersions in edit summaries, in what appears to be a preemptive poisoning the well tactic to dissuade others from adding content which you personally deem unacceptable.?

Diff 2 was in response to this, where you added After Verma's expulsion, he alleged in an interview on CTV News that "some of these Khalistani extremists and terrorists are deep assets of CSIS", but explicitly told the interviewer, Vassy Kapelos, "I'm not giving you any evidence on that". with this source. That source doesn't mention that quote, so it does appear that you engaged in interpretation of a primary source, and the wording but explicitly told the interviewer is heavily loaded with implication not found in the source cited. Was that worth a level 4? Probably not, but I don't think it's severe enough an issue to sanction at AE. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:57, 4 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Nableezy

Latest comment: 9 days ago84 comments16 people in discussion

Rough consensus among uninvolved administrators that the Arbitraiton Comittee is better able to determine what, if anything, the problems are and any appropriate sanction. Will be referring it to them at WP:ARCA (Further discussion can be found here). Barkeep49 (talk) 19:07, 7 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Nableezy

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Andrevan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 21:25, 28 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

User against whom enforcement is requested: Nableezy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: WP:PIA4

I'm asking for civility. An RFC remaining at the status quo is not gaming the system. That is standard procedure. Accusing me of tendentious and disruptive editing is not appropriate. I am simply making normal edits and am not alone. It's an open dispute and I followed the advice of SFR in opening an RFC. That Snowstormfigorion happened to revert beforehand is not gaming the system, it's a classic "wrong version," and wiki veterans should know better. I don't see that I should simply put up with being accused falsely and aspersions cast in bad faith. See the discussion at the 1948 war talk page. See the history of the 1948 war article. The material was removed by several editors and restored by several editors. There's currently no consensus on what to do. It was suggested by SFR that I start an RFC which I did so. Nableezy accuses me of tendentious editing, gaming the system, and disruptive editing. I left a message on his talk page and on SFR's talk page and he did not clarify or modify his aspersions. Andre🚐 21:25, 28 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Responding to Nableezy below, no. Starting a new RFC on a different article, as SFR suggested and confirmed [15], is not improper. WP:CCC, but in this case it's long-standing content that was in the article for years and the RFC being referred to was on a different article. It is not mentioned at all in the policy or guidelines on disruptive editing or tendentious editing, or gaming at all. I made a total of 12 reverts to that article [edited Andre🚐 22:40, 28 October 2024 (UTC)], started an RFC and had discussion. Please explain how any of this is described by any behavioral guideline. It's incivil accusations and doubling down on it. Andre🚐 21:45, 28 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Responding to Barkeep's message, I agree with the point - a child article could have something DUE that isn't DUE at the parent. I would argue it does in this case. I would also argue that it's not terribly relevant to the civility of accusations of tendentious editing and disruptive editing, though. How could I be guilty of those charges with the record of editing to that article? I restored the material ~~once~~twice separated by 7 days [edited Andre🚐 22:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)], and then I started the RFC at SFR's prompting. Even if Nableezy were right on the merits, which he isn't, an uninvolved admin said I should start the RFC so I did. How can this be gaming the system? Andre🚐 21:55, 28 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

WRT Huldra's message, the 2nd revert by Nableezy was his revert of me removing my post. Since he removed my reply and then I removed my entire post but he reverted that restoring my post. And yes I guess the diffs are slightly out of order but that shouldn't really matter since they are timestamped. That was not intentional, I suppose I can correct the order, shouldn't be too difficult. Andre🚐 22:02, 28 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Huldra, I believe I fixed the diff order. Nableezy, if you agree that starting the RFC wasn't disruptive or tendentious or gaming, then nothing I did was gaming. The standard procedure is that when an RFC runs, you don't edit the part under RFC. Isn't it? Or has that changed? Things change all the time but last I checked, that is officially how things work. Andre🚐 22:07, 28 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Huldra, one of your diffs is not a "new post" but a removal of the post. I did not post after being told repeatedly not to. The only reason why I posted at nableezy's page at all was to seek to resolve the dispute and clarify it before bringing it here. "Kindly take your leave" is not the same as "don't you post any more posts here." It is suggested to attempt to resolve disputes with users before escalating them which I have attempted in good faith to do. Andre🚐 22:28, 28 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Vanamonde, how am I selectively reading SFR's message? If there's no consensus the status quo remains, per NOCON. I do not have more than one revert. I had 1 revert to Nableezy's talk, removing my whole post. I didn't revert to restore. Please look again. Andre🚐 22:36, 28 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Oh, yes, I had two total reverts to 1948 separated by 7 days [16] [17], that's my mistake. Andre🚐 22:40, 28 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Huldra, I posted one more clarifying question since Nableezy referred to SFR's message and I sought clarification. Nableezy reverted it so I posted it to SFR's talk page. Contrary to your assertion, I did not post again to Nableezy's page. Nableezy did though respond to the thread on SFR's page. That all seems a bit silly. I didn't disrespect Nableezy's subsequent directive to stay off his talk page. And Vandamonde, I didn't selectively interpret SFR's post. SFR said to start an RFC. I said "No" to nableezy's repeated assertion that this was gaming the system. I didn't dispute SFR's statement that there is no consensus. If there's no consensus we retain the status quo for the RFC. I didn't edit war. I made 2 reverts separate by 7 days and I was not alone in doing so. Andre🚐 22:46, 28 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Barkeep, I don't see how I was supposed interpret "kindly take your leave" as "do not post any clarifying further questions" nor was Nableezy's subsequent post to my talk page "necessary" as it came after I removed my post, not added a new post. Andre🚐 22:49, 28 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Barkeep, I interpreted that as Nableezy wasn't interested in apologizing or modifying his accusations, not a blanket talk page ban. I don't see that I should interpret that so strictly as you seem to. It became clearer afterwards, but I wasn't intentionally flouting that. It seemed more sensible to continue the conversation with the followup question to SFR in-context. After it was made clear by Nableezy reverting that I did not post to his talk page again. My next post was to remove the whole thread. Andre🚐 22:53, 28 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Further regarding the issue of edit warring, it's clear that a number of editors tried to remove the material and a number of editors restored it. But I'm here about Nableezy's claims of tendentious, disruptive, and gaming. I didn't engage in those. I restored the content twice over the course of 7 days. Then I started the RFC at prompting from SFR. I did not engage in any disruptive behaviors. If some editors try to remove material and other editors are restoring material, are you trying to say that the correct action is to simply let the editors removing it leave it out? That's not how things have ever been done here that I know of. If an RFC is merited as an uninvolved admin suggested, and if the article scopes are different as an uninvolved admin suggested, then the RFC would have the status quo during the duration. That's always been the case in my experience. I'm rather disappointed that this is now about whether I violated nableezy's talk page or whether I edit warred. Even if you believe my 2 reverts are edit warring, pblock me from that page then. But how about Nableezy's sanctionable incivility? Andre🚐 22:58, 28 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

@ManyAreasExpert, thanks, but, I think there is a policy somewhere that permits such talkpagebans, although judging from Nableezy's last message and the one from BilledMammal (thanks, also) this should no longer be an issue. Also, the topic ban is from 9 months ago so it is expired. Andre🚐 23:58, 28 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
The policy @ManyAreasExpert, I found it, it's WP:USERTALKSTOP. Andre🚐 00:07, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
@ManyAreasExpert, I suppose that may be the case then that Nableezy violated their topicban in March of this year, though I'm not sure if there is some kind of statute of limitations on litigating old stuff here, and but I see no problem with someone looking into that. However, I wouldn't be surprised if that would be considered too old or a case of laches in common Wikipedia precedent, since all of Wikipedia's remedies are at least in theory based on preventing possible harm and not punishing technical violations (which, should also apply to the question of any edit war, since it hasn't been one since the RFC has been opened, as is customary). Andre🚐 00:28, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
I'll add two more things. One, about edit warring. I do not think my bias for WP:PRESERVE is tendentious, or my 2 reverts defending the status quo slow-mo edit warring. When editors remove something without a valid rationale, it's not a violation to restore content that's been there since 2020 especially if more than one person is doing it, and when an uninvolved admin has agreed there is no consensus and a RFC is needed. Under Wikipedia norms, consensus, and PAG, that content is status quo, always has been unless someone can explain how that doesn't apply. It doesn't become a violation because I restored it twice. If it is considered edit warring though simply because I did so twice and not once, it's not necessarily tendentious, gaming, or disruptive. Those have policy definitions that aren't met by the simple act of restoring content which, if it's edit warring to restore it, it was editors edit warring to remove the content. It's a content dispute and there's nothing to show or say that my particular participation was disruptive or tendentious. And the second thing about the talk page guidelines. I was not hounding or harassing nableezy. I believe it is encouraged to try to defuse disputes. The alternative was simply to allow the incivility to stand. I don't see how that is justifiable. If nableezy had a problem with my behavior, the proper forum and venue is this one. Instead, nableezy persisted in making unfounded and incivil accusations. That remain unsubstantiated. I therefore really had no other choice, except dropping it, than pursuing it on nableezy's talk page. WP:SOMTP was the response. That itself may be problematic. Even if you agree that my 2 reverts were edit warring, I don't see how that changes the issue here. Aspersions require detailed diffs and evidence. Once SFR had confirmed there was no consensus and we needed an RFC, at that time nableezy should have agreed I was not being tendentious or disruptive. Andre🚐 00:18, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Responding again to Barkeep, as I said, I thought that since Nableezy referred to the statement by SFR I would ask SFR to clarify. That seemed simple enough and didn't seem like it would offend since Nableezy was the one who pinged SFR on the article talk to begin with. At any rate, if the subsequent message after the "kindly take leave" was unwelcomed, I apologize for that. Andre🚐 01:01, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Once again Nableezy invokes "the wrong version." But I didn't revert it back to that immediately before the RFC. Another user did that. I started the RFC. But either way, once SFR confirmed that an RFC was proper, the argument fell apart, yet you still fail to acknowledge or admit that. I was simply following the advice of SFR and not at all gaming anything. However, even if it hadn't been reverted by Snowstorm, it is the case that for 30 days (or however long the RFC runs) it is normal for the status quo to remain, even when it has no consensus, that's completely normal wiki procedure and not disruptive, tendentious, or gaming. Andre🚐 01:14, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

TarnishedPath, I wasn't sure about that so asked about it on Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability#ONUS_a_blank_check? and there was no consensus there, nor has there ever been in the past, that in general ONUS supercedes WP:PRESERVE, WP:NOCON, and WP:RFC. The standard has always been during RFCs not to edit the page. Andre🚐 01:30, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

If the others aren't edit warring and I am because I had 2 reverts, I think a 1RR-7day restriction or a 1RR-14day restriction would be easier to comply with than a 0RR. I also don't think a 0RR is a fair sanction. Andre🚐 18:49, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

The important diffs

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

[18]
others in AE archives

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Nableezy is aware of CTOPs restrictions having been previously sanctioned.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[19]

Discussion concerning Nableezy

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Nableezy

It *is* tendentious to make editors go through the same argument over and over again. We had a recent RFC on the exact same topic on the parent article. Anybody is justified in discussing and attempting to find a new consensus, but when we have already had that argument and there was a consensus established at the parent article demanding that the material be retained for 30 days because an RFC was opened *is* tendentious and it *is* gaming. That isnt an aspersion. If there is something about my reverting Andre on my own talk page or responding to his admin-shopped complaint at another talk page I need to respond to here lmk. But citing evidence for an accusation is the opposite of "casting aspersions". nableezy - 21:39, 28 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Barkeep49, yes, something can be relevant in a child article where it is less important in the parent article, but that isnt the issue here. The issue is whether or not the topics are even related, with the established consensus being that the wars of 1947-1948 not being related to the mass emigration of Jews to Israel over the next decade. If it is not related to the wider war, it is likewise not related to something with an even smaller scope. The discussion at the parent article found a consensus that this was at most an indirect result of the entire conflict, it makes no sense that it would then be a direct, and major, consequence of the smaller scoped article. Ill also point to this comment by another editor saying the same thing. nableezy - 21:50, 28 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Andre, starting the RFC is not the issue. Starting it and demanding the material that does not have consensus for inclusion and that past RFC consensus against the very same arguments being offered for inclusion here *is* what I am saying is tendentious and gaming. nableezy - 21:58, 28 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

@BilledMammal it means that discussion has concluded and Id like the person to no longer continue it. When Andre ignored that I then asked that he no longer edit my talk page at all. I dont think his final two edits to my talk page are really an issue worth discussing. At this point though, yes I have asked him to no longer edit my talk page except when required. nableezy - 23:25, 28 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Manyareasexpert I decline to engage with anything else you’ve written as I see literally no point, but please read through the end of the section of the link to my talk page that you posted to see that ban was reduced on appeal to 30 days. nableezy - 00:40, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Andre, stay off my talk page was not the response, that came after you went from discussing with me to badgering me. Pinging an admin to my talk page after me asking you to end the discussion, removing the entire discussion on my talk page without my permission, that was what led me to ask you to stay off my talk page. Not your initial message, or your next message for that matter. You can say my comments were unsubstantiated, but I did substantiate them, I provided the reasons why I say those actions were gaming and disruptive. Aspersions are unsupported claims, not claims you disagree with. I do think you both edit warred and transparently attempted to game inclusion of what does not have consensus for inclusion and in a very closely related discussion has consensus against. I’ve given the reasons why I say that. Why didn’t I come to AE? Because every time I try to deal with any behavioral thing at AE it becomes an ungodly clusterfuck and I just don’t have that energy to give right now. But yes I think you are gaming and yes I think that is sanctionable. If the admins have any questions for me I’m happy to answer them but other than that idk what else there is for me to say here. nableezy - 00:58, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

BilledMammal, that is neither true nor related. Both the status quo and the consensus of that discussion was to include in the lead. You yourself removed it from the lead and then attempted to claim that to be the status quo. I’m pretty tired of this throw whatever you can against the wall to see what sticks method of seeking sanctions, so unless an admin tells me I need to respond to something else here I am going to ignore it as noise. nableezy - 02:51, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Uh, no. You removed it on August 19, when it had been in the lead unchallenged since April. nableezy - 03:23, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

SFR, there is zero cause for any interaction ban at all. Disagreeing with somebody doesn’t make it so there is no constructive communication. The idea that if people consistently disagree with each other the correct course of action is to limit any discussion between them is, to be blunt, childish. We are not children to be put in time out. We don’t have to agree, but others may find our points persuasive and from that a wider consensus may develop. How many people cited either of our views at the RFC on Hamas-run as a qualifier for the health ministry? Consensus development is not about the two of us agreeing or persuading one another, it is about us persuading other users, and by limiting any interaction you stifle that. nableezy - 12:33, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

And as far as who cares, due to another users repeated reverts, the articles lead now includes an outright false statement, not just an irrelevant one. You may not care about that, but I do. nableezy - 12:34, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

As far as 0RR, I have made a grand total of one revert, and I did so on the basis of a highly related RFC consensus. If you are defining participant in an edit war as anybody who made a single revert and justified it then I think you and I are operating with different dictionaries. nableezy - 13:27, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

You may not care about that, but I do is now being offered as harsh language by me lol? You literally said But, really, who cares if that sentence is there or not for the duration of the RFC. That is just ridiculous. I answered who cares about including factually incorrect, and there is no dispute on that part, material in the lead of an encyclopedia article. I do. nableezy - 15:53, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

I dont believe I participated in a multi-party edit war, I made the edit I made, and explained it, without even looking at the history of the article. I saw the discussion, and recalled the prior RFC, and saw people making the same exact argument that was rejected by consensus in that RFC. So I made a single revert. When it was restored I complained about a factual inaccuracy. Somebody else modified that, that was reverted to restore the inaccuracy, and Zero removed that because with the inaccuracy it was even less related to the topic. I do not think either of us "participated in a multi-party edit war", and I think if you are going to define edit-warring to include a single revert made with a justification on a talk page that needs to be made considerably more explicit. My past sanctions, a decade ago, were because I did indeed edit war. It is something I have not done for over a decade intentionally. Ive given others the same advice, eg here, where I advised a user if you make it a rule to instead of reverting an edit of yours that was reverted to go to the talk page and essentially convince others to revert it by consensus you will save yourself most of the administrative headaches in this area. I had no intention to edit-war, and would not have made any additional reverts. And as such I do not think it reasonable to portray my actions at that page as edit-warring. nableezy - 16:20, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Barkeep49 I think it certainly turned into that, but I don't really think it was when I removed the sentence. But also, I think the RFC from the prior article clearly applies to this same issue. It is the same issue with the same sources, mostly offered by the same users. To me this was a simple issue of math. If the set of consequences of A is the sum of the set of consequences of B and of C, than if something is not in set A it is in neither sets B or C. I think it is plainly obvious, if you review both discussions, that we already have a consensus on this topic. And so I removed a sentence once. When it became a prolonged back and forth yes it was a multi-party edit war, but I don't think it was when I reverted. nableezy - 22:46, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

@the admins, if you're going to be looking at the entire history, Snowstormfigorion is even reverting tags about a false statement in the article. That is their now third revert, two of them inserting false statements that fail verification. nableezy - 15:20, 30 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by ManyAreasExpert

Special:GoToComment/c-Nableezy-20240311163900-Coretheapple-20240311163900 Thanks for demonstrating your inability to respond to math.

Edit: Special:PermanentLink/1204764975#Notice that you are now subject to an arbitration enforcement sanction so the editor was still under the topicban at that time? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:40, 28 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

I'm actually surprised this uncivility (and topicban violation, if I'm correct) complaint is down to how to interpret some requests to not to edit a user talkpage. A talkpage is a legitimate method to communicate between the editors. Including posting warnings if one assumes some Wikipedia rules are broken. Actually, one is encouraged to post legitimate warnings to user talkpage by the rules. This is how editors encourage others to adhere to the rules, and this is how we maintain the health of the community.

And nowhere in the rules I saw an option to "ban" somebody when I don't like their warnings. Actually, I would expect administrators to be wary about the repeated behavior of "banning" those giving warnings, as the editor did also for me User talk:Manyareasexpert#my talk page . If I understand the rules correctly, one simply cannot "ban" you from a talk page, it's contrary to the rules!

I would also expect administrators to be wary of the (repeated?) behavior of undoing the warnings without archiving them [20] with "lol".

Behaviors like these go against the collaborative spirit editors are supposed to work within the community. Somebody may even consider them offending. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 23:54, 28 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Andrevan, I'm not aware of the policy to restrict others from my talkpage, if there is such, please disregard the message above (and enlighten me with the policy, thanks). ManyAreasExpert (talk) 00:01, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

So, given the editor has "banned" at least 2 other editors, and me, an uninvolved editor, who was not a target of their personal attack, we may have a WP:SOMTP case here: Except in specific and clear cases of WP:WIKIHOUNDING, such "banning" is highly problematic and an indication that the banning editor is having serious problems cooperating with others. How many other editors were "banned"?

The topicban was ending at the end of March 2024 and the editor participated in discussion on March 11.

Correction: as pointed out, the TB was appealed and shortened to the end of Jan 2024. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 00:18, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by Huldra

A' list for diffs are not chronological:

8) is 19:59, 28 October 2024 to N's talk page where N tells A. to "Kindly take your leave from this page. Thank you."
6) is 20:17, 28 October 2024 to N's talk page where N revert a new post by A
7) is 20:27, 28 October 2024 to N's talk page where N revert yet another post by A

Possible boomerang for keep posting on a user-page after you have been told not to? Huldra (talk) 21:58, 28 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

User:Andrevan yes, please get the diffs in a correct order, thank you, Huldra (talk) 22:04, 28 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

All the following diffs are to N's talk-page:

19:59, 28 October 2024 N to A: "Kindly take your leave from this page. Thank you."
20:02, 28 October 2024 new post by A.
20:17, 28 October 2024 N reverted A's post with the edit-line: "you can ask your question somewhere besides my talk page"
20:23, 28 October 2024 new post A to N's talk-page (removal of stuff)
20:27, 28 October 2024 new revert by N, with edit-line "Please dont edit my talk page again"

Is it ok to post on a talk-page after been repeatedly asked not to? Huldra (talk) 22:23, 28 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

User:Andrevan wrote: "Kindly take your leave" is not the same as "don't you post any more posts here." Actually, that is how I would have interpreted it. At least, you shouldn't be surprised about curt language if you insists on posting again, Huldra (talk) 22:43, 28 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by BilledMammal

Just noting that Nableezy doesn't interpret "So kindly take your leave from this page" as a ban from the talk page; instead, they appear to interpret it merely a request. See this clarification that they made when they used the phrase previously.

As note on the dispute itself, this discussion appears to contain a related issue.

Nableezy and a couple of other editors wish to include "In its investigation on 20 October 2023, Forensic Architecture concluded the blast was the result of a munition fired from Israel". The status quo is to not include, but based on their WP:INVOLVED reading of that informal discussion, they argue that there is a consensus to include it, and have repeatedly done so.

Nableezy, it was WP:BOLDLY added on September 11 and disputed immediately, and has continued to be contentious. It isn't the status quo.

That isn't the content currently being disputed, or the content I am saying is not the status quo. That content is the sentence "In its investigation on 20 October 2023, Forensic Architecture concluded the blast was the result of a munition fired from Israel", which is not in the diff you provided, and was added on September 11.

Perhaps this is a misunderstanding; now that this has been clarified, do you withdraw your objection that the inclusion of this content is the status quo? 03:29, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

@Valereee: Unfortunately, your proposed method of restoring the status quo while an RFC is proceeding does not appear workable; see this test of it. BilledMammal (talk) 00:29, 30 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Valereee: I'll add that I previously tried something similar with WP:RMTR; an editor was repeatedly making bold moves, and rather than get into a move war I would go to RMTR to request that an uninvolved editor restore the status quo title. It almost never happened, with the uninvolved editor instead converting the technical request into a requested move proposing moving the article back to the status quo title.

Given the issues we've seen with the experiment here, as well as the issues I've seen with previous similar requests, I don't think this is a workable solution. BilledMammal (talk) 02:07, 3 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

0RR probably isn't the best solution to this common problem. A better solution is to treat reverts away from the status quo as different from reverts back to the status quo - treat the former as more disruptive than the latter, because they are more disruptive.

This would function as "consensus required", requiring editors to get consensus if their disputed bold edit is reverted, as well as providing a clear path to get the content back to the status quo. BilledMammal (talk) 10:01, 31 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Zero, if there is consensus then that is the new status quo, and reverting away from that will be the disruptive behaviour. BilledMammal (talk) 15:20, 31 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by TarnishedPath

WP:ONUS would suggest that once material is removed from an article and while discussion is occurring on the article's talk page that the content stay removed until such time as there is consensus unless there is some other policy reason for the material to be re-inserted. Per the policy, "[t]he responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content". TarnishedPath^talk 01:28, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by arkon

Clearly the important thing here is a nebulous personal talk page ban that was or wasn't. Should have already been a case via ARCA, but I'm apparently in the minority. Arkon (talk) 01:38, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by Selfstudier

The disputed sentence covers two separate issues 1) The total number of Jews that immigrated to Israel in the three years following the war and 2) Included within that, those Jews immigrating from the Arab world. The currently running RFC addresses only the second issue so the QUO argument should only be about that part, nevertheless, despite it being made absolutely clear on the article talk page that the material covered in 1) fails verification, Snowstormfigorion has again made another revert restoring this material claiming that it is subject of the RFC, which it isn't. Selfstudier (talk) 13:07, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

The phrase du jour is "multi-editor edit war" (by experienced editors), I suppose that might be an "improvement" over "tag-team edit warring" (by regulars) per the potential ARCA. I deliberately decided not to revert the changes being made, although I thought that they should be reverted, for fear of this dismal accusation being made once again and there it is. If we want this "behavior" (which I regard as being arguments over content) to stop, then the need is to define this "offence" clearly so that it is simply not an option anymore. How does it come about? There is a removal (usually, it could be an addition)), then it is reverted and off we go with the supposed regulars, typically supplemented by some irregulars, back and forth. OK, the first removal must not give simply ONUS as reason, there must be some substantive real reason for removal. If there is, then any revert requires an equally substantive, real reason. If that's so, then the only recourse is discussion starting on the talk page. That's a particular case of WP:BRD turned into a rule instead of an optional thing (not saying this "rule" doesn't need workshopping and tidying up). Selfstudier (talk) 13:27, 30 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by Alaexis

Considering that we've learned recently about what appears to be a large-scale and well-organised effort to influence the Wikipedia coverage of the conflict (link, please see the part about the Discord channel used to coordinate Wikipedia editing), I think that it might be worthwhile to review the decisions taken recently in this topic area, including the closures of RfCs like this one. Alaexis_¿question? 22:26, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

@ScottishFinnishRadish, for sure, my point was that opening an RfC in this situation wasn't disruptive. Alaexis_¿question? 23:07, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by Zero0000

I have edited that article only twice in more than two years. Any suggestion that I edit-war there is false. Moreover, I'm happy to justify either of those edits.

Only a fraction of reverts are to-and-fro between regular editors. A large number are reverts of new or fly-by-night editors who don't know the subject and come along to insert bad text in violation of NPOV or RS or the facts. This type of revert is a good edit and without it keeping the article in an acceptable state would be impossible. An inevitable result of hitting the most experienced editors with 0RR would be deterioration of article quality. Zero^talk 00:18, 30 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Valereee: You ask a fair question, and if you study my record you'll see that I do that sort of thing hardly ever. If I'd thought for more than a few seconds, I would have decided against it. As far as I remember, my motive at that moment was that there was a recent RfC about exactly the same question and there was no talk page consensus to overturn it. So I felt there was already a consensus until someone established a different consensus, which is what I wrote in my edit summary. I also knew that the sentence I removed is factually incorrect, as Nableezy had pointed out on the talk page and I had checked. Zero^talk 14:00, 30 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

If there is a consensus to change the status quo, and especially if there is an RfC to change the status quo, then reverting back to the status quo is obviously more disruptive than implementing the consensus. It negates the very purpose of consensus. So BilledMammal's latest idea doesn't pass scrutiny. Zero^talk 14:58, 31 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by ABHammad

I'd like to point out that the editors mentioned in this complaint each have their own record, which could suggest the need for tailored sanctions. For instance, only three months ago, User:Makeandtoss, who took part in this edit war, was given their 'final warning' "for behavior that falls below the required level required when editing in contentious topics", with Seraphimblade writing that it should be given "with very clear understanding that any more problems will almost certainly lead to a topic ban". To me, it's obvious now that just giving more warnings won't make a difference. ABHammad (talk) 15:42, 30 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by Makeandtoss

@Valereee: Thank you for the ping, I had been seriously ill. As well-articulated by @Vanamonde93:, there are different aspects to this dispute. Removing material that had no consensus for its inclusion or keeping conforms with WP:ONUS, while constantly re-adding that contested material is in direct violation of it. WP:DON'T PRESERVE is actually the relevant guideline, rather than WP:PRESERVE, since the former's scope includes contentious material such as this one. WP:STATUSQUO is an essay. RFCs are a way of reaching broader consensus so they cannot be considered to have a freeze effect on contentious material that has no consensus, and this RFC was anyway belatedly opened at the end after the removals. Having avoided making further reverts myself and engaged extensively in the talk page and encouraged those re-adding the contentious material to seek proper dispute resolution, conformity with all the relevant guidelines and policies was maintained. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:57, 31 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Also regarding the IBANs for the other editors I think it might not be helpful, since, during disputes, we need more communication, not less of it; disputes are often the result of a lack of communication. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:59, 31 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Nableezy

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

@Nableezy: - I have little patience for people who don't respect RfC consensuses. And I could understand the idea of saying "This was rejected as UNDUE at the child article, so it definitely wouldn't be appropriate at the parent article." But I would expect things to be appropriate to include at a child article, with a smaller focus, that would be wrong to include at a parent article with a larger focus. So, for instance, when I split YouTube and privacy from YouTube I covered stuff in the LEAD that I wouldn't think appropriate for the lead at YouTube. Can you explain what that wouldn't be true in this circumstance? Thanks, Barkeep49 (talk) 21:47, 28 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
I find Nableezy's explanation reasonable for why the situation here is different than what I suggested above. I am also not impressed with Andrevan continuing to post on Nableezy's talkpage (other than required notifications) after being asked not to - Nableezy shouldn't have had to go to Andrevan's user talk to make that request, requesting it on Nableezy's user talk should have been more than sufficient. I hope to be able to look into the edit-warring piece soon. Barkeep49 (talk) 22:46, 28 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Andrevan how did you interpret Kindly take your leave from this page. Thank you. then? Barkeep49 (talk) 22:51, 28 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Andrevan: The context BM provided matters in that it clearly has some wiggle room but I think the idea that Kindly take your leave from this page. Thank you. meant something for Nableezy and not you is just a really poor reading of things. Taking it as a cue to continue the discussion only seems likely to inflame tensions - as it did here with a more formal and complete request for you to absent yourself from his user talk. Barkeep49 (talk) 00:57, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
When a given piece of content is in dispute, the appropriate thing to do is to discuss it substantively. Edit-warring over what version of the content remains in place while said discussion occurs is battleground conduct - why did there need to be seven reverts after this initial removal? And while Nableezy's language on the talk page is harsh, I will note that Andrevan is the only one to have made more than one revert in that sequence. Andre is also selectively reading SFR's message in this post, and Nableezy's response is understandable at the very least. Vanamonde93 (talk) 22:33, 28 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
For ease of others the chronology is:
- 01:54, October 21, 2024 IOHANNVSVERVS removes
- 02:00, October 21, 2024 Andrevan restores
- 02:12, 21 October 2024 IOHANNVSVERVS opens talk page discussion
- 13:48, October 26, 2024 Nableezy removes
- 14:18, October 26, 2024 Alaexis restores
- 03:45, October 27, 2024 Zero0000 removes
- 04:19, October 27, 2024 Andrevan restores
- 12:23, October 27, 2024 Makeandtoss removes
- 21:17, October 27, 2024 Snowstormfigorion restores
- 21:40, 27 October 2024 Andrean opens RFC
Barkeep49 (talk) 01:12, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
So here we have yet another situation where there is no firm consensus on content which led to an edit war among multiple parties and the commensurate escalation of hostility. The RFC against inclusion is for a related article, but not the same article and arguments about DUE aren't addressed by an RFC on another article with a different scope. In descending order, the biggest issues I see in this situation is the edit warring, the user talk page behavior exhibited by Andrevan, and the lack of using established dispute resolution to just open an RFC and wait a month. If we're looking for the status quo while the RFC runs then it would include the sentence about Jewish migration, as that was the long term status quo. That is wasn't in the article around the time the RFC was opened is a function of a multi-party edit war. But, really, who cares if that sentence is there or not for the duration of the RFC? Was it really worth edit warring over for either side? Nableezy, as they often do, used needlessly aggressive language, but that's pretty common for the topic.
Now, on to things we can do.
- 0RR for anyone involved in this edit war that was also involved in another edit war discussed at AE in the past year. These multi-party edit wars instead of just following DR are far too common in the topic area and make an appearance at most AE reports
- Iban Andrevan and Nableezy, which I should have done when I sanctioned them both a year ago
- Iban BilledMammal and Nableezy, because as we can see in this report, they're not capable of constructive communication or collaboration (this isn't really related to the situation being reported, but it is evident from their behavior in this report)
- Restore the article to the pre-edit war status quo ante and apply consensus required and everyone just waits out the RFC, which is what should have happened six reverts ago
- Sternly wag our finger at Andrevan for their shenanigans on Nableezy's talk page
- Yet again wag our finger at Nableezy's use of harsh language
The Ibans should have a blanket exclusion for anything directly before Arbcom, e.g. a case request, a clarification/amendment request, or a case itself, and should also have a carve out to allow them to respond to an RFC created by the other editor, though only addressing the RFC question. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:23, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
I'd hate to see either of these ibans; all three editors would have a very difficult time trying to avoid one another. I almost feel like it's asking them to game the system. I'd support 0RR for the edit war participants. These round-robin wars by experienced editors who appear to be gaming the system are disruptive, and I think we should actively discourage it. Support restoring pre-edit war version until RfC is completed. Fine with stern finger-wagging. Valereee (talk) 13:11, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
It obviously is fair for administrators to question the utility of warnings, but I think continuing to refer to formal warnings as "finger wagging" serves to undermine any utility they have. SFR, what you derisively call finger wagging just caused me to escalate something from a warning into a sanction in this topic area - to no small amount of pushback. I find what Andrevan did on Nableezy's usertalk wrong, lacking in collegiality, and failing to follow editorial and behavioural best practice. I would hope you do as well and would wish it to stop and if this is so, I would hope we could all act accordingly in the message we send to people about it. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:32, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
You're right, I should treat the warnings with a bit more respect, despite my feelings about their overall utility. In this situation, Andrevan has been sanctioned in the topic area, and in my view that is a level above a final warning. I would support a formal warning, stern even, for Andrevan. I would support further sanctions, as well, up to an indefinite topic ban since I believe that misbehavior after a sanction demonstrates that the sanction wasn't effective. As for Nableezy, we're yet again at AE for what Vanamonde called harsh language, which they have been consistently warned about ~~and they're yet again dropping You may not care about that, but I do. at AE which they were warned about~~, so I would also support a formal warning or further sanctions. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:22, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
As the person being linked to there for a warning there I see a large difference in the decorum Nableezy showed there (and in fairness to them struck when asked, which is in-line with the revert when asked ethos you've promoted in this topic area) and what they did here. I see them explaining their actions to an uninvolved administrator. The explanation may be insufficient for participating in a multiparty edit war, but I don't find anything about the explanation itself to have crossed lines. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:08, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
I'm willing to accept that my reading of that may have been more harsh than was intended. Nableezy, my apologies. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:22, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Nableezy so if we're not calling this a multiparty edit war, what should we call it? I called it that because it was the first phrase that came to mind but am very open to describing the sequence in a different way - it was definitely not the focus of my message. And from your perspective is there any issue with the history I captured above? From my perspective it is a problem. I'm wondering if you agree and if not why (so perhaps I can reconsider). Barkeep49 (talk) 17:07, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Sorry, you're right, we shouldn't be flip. Valereee (talk) 16:07, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Zero0000, you say you didn't edit war and you're happy to justify your edits. This is the edit I'm concerned about: you were part of a multi-editor edit war by experienced editors who know how to avoid individual sanctions. Why did you participate in an ongoing edit war? Valereee (talk) 12:55, 30 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

I personally find Andrevan's actions here - as the only person to appear twice on the timeline for removal/restoration - and for the actions on Nableezy's talk to be qualitatively different than anyone else we're talking about. It also seems to me that 0RR here would have resulted in an outcome that enshrines the "wrong version" (the analysis of which I agree with SFR) for the duration of any discussion and RFC and as such I'm not sure is the right response to what happened on that page. And if we're seriously discussing sanctions on anyone other than Andrevan and Nableezy, I think we need to formally notify them. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:39, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
The difference in outcome with 0RR in place is there wouldn't have been seven reverts, and hopefully the issue would have followed dispute resolution earlier and with less acrimony. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:23, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
For me the 0RR is to discourage this kind of ECR round-robin edit war where everyone takes a turn so nobody gets sanctioned. And I don't see it as necessarily enshrining a wrong version. Open an RfC and at the same time make an edit request asking for the edit to be reverted by an uninvolved editor while the RfC is running. That would turn it into IO removes, A opens an RfC and an edit request asking for an uninvolved reversion. Valereee (talk) 16:06, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
I'm not sold on this being the right response yet, but want to think more about it since I hear what you two are saying. Since it's being seriously discussed I have notified the other 5 people about this thread and possible sanction. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:22, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Alaexis that's so far into Arbcom territory it's reviewing checkuser applications. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:35, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
When examining this sort of slow edit-warring, a key question for me is whether editors are engaging substantively with the content, or making reflexive reverts. Having made reverts, Nableezy, Alaexis, Makeandtoss, and Zero have all participated substantively, and avoided making further reverts. Andrevan also participated substantially, but made two reverts, and there was the user talk fracas. Snowstormfigorion has edited the talk page, but their participation there leaves something to be desired - they clearly had not read the discussion before making a revert, and have not engaged since. As such the conduct of Andre and Snowstormfigorion is qualitately different from the others for me; I would not support 0RR on anyone else based on this evidence, though I'm willing to consider who else may have a history of edit-warring per SFR above. I would support a warning, but no more, for Nableezy for combative language. I don't believe successive warnings make them pointless. There is a spectrum of bad behavior, and the response needs to be proportionate - the examples discussed here merit warning, and I don't think a history of warnings changes that for me. I also don't think IBANs are a good idea. On the merits, I don't think the problem is that these editors bring out the worst in each other, it's the topic that does. On the practicality, for editors whose primary focus is PIA articles, with a contribution history as long as Andre, Nableezy, and BM have, an IBAN would lead to considerably more drama than it would avoid. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:59, 29 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Makeandtoss, you haven't made a statement. You've been mentioned in Nableezy's statement, ABHammad's statement, and Vanamonde's comment. Would you like to make a statement?

Snowstormfigorion, ditto. Valereee (talk) 15:53, 30 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Noting that I have TBANned Snowstormfigorion for six months, given that they continued to revert - including reverting in content with verification concerns that had been acknowledged by others, and then reverting the addition a tag on the same, without any talk page participation. This does not change my assessment of the rest of the dispute. Vanamonde93 (talk) 16:16, 31 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Bohemian Baltimore

Latest comment: 1 day ago89 comments19 people in discussion

Bohemian Baltimore is topic banned from the self-identification or citizenship of living or recently deceased people, broadly construed. They are further warned against making accusations or casting aspersions without evidence. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:20, 15 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Bohemian Baltimore

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Morbidthoughts (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 05:50, 30 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

User against whom enforcement is requested: Bohemian Baltimore (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Editing of Biographies of Living Persons

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

19:52, 25 October 2024 Adding self-identification category to Grant Fuhr without direct support from article and its cited sources. Reverted by me.
18:35, 25 October 2024 Replacing Taino descent category with self-identification category. Was reverted by User:Lewisguile noting same issue.
18:34, 25 October 2024 Replacing Taino descent category with self-identification category. Reverted by Lewisguile noting same issue.
16:43, 22 October 2024 Replacing Navajo People category with self-identification Indigenous Mexican category. Reverted by me because neither article text nor its cited sources verify self-identification.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 07:49, 30 May 2024 (see the system log linked to above).

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I first learned about Bohemian Baltimore's disputed edits that introduce a self-identification qualifier to biographies of living people without explicit support from RSes on a May BLP Noticeboard discussion about Patricia Norby.[21] Consensus was against these edits. As far as I can tell, Bohemian Baltimore has made hundreds of this type of edits since 2023, mostly by use of categories.[22] The categories are very contentious themselves based on a prior CfD discussion.[23] I have reverted many of these edits and previously warned Bohemian Baltimore in August about this.[24][25][26]

I believe Bohemian Baltimore should be barred from BLPs involving Native/Indigenous topics.

Despite YuchiTown's attempt to rationalise the self-identification label, I'd like the reviewing administrators to consider what also happened when the categories were linked to the individual biographies as raised in the CfD discussion. It is not just the word self-identify that is added. When people click on the category page, they can see variations of the following summary about the listed people: "This category page lists notable citizens of the United States who claim to have _____ ancestry but who have no proof of this heritage. In some cases they make the claim despite having been proven to have no ______ heritage at all." with a later Pretendian link. BB created these categories and their corresponding summaries[27][28][29][30] and then linked people to these non-neutral contentions without direct unchained support from RSes. Think of the impact these unsourced gatekeeping assertions have on people. Morbidthoughts (talk) 00:16, 2 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Barkeep49,@Seraphimblade, @ScottishFinnishRadish Similar to Hemiauchenia's example, I thought it was weird that BB brought up a lack of literacy and racism[31] in a discussion about whether a third-party report of a DNA test supported a self-identification of descent category. BB questioned another user's reading comprehension[32] in the Norby talk page discussion when that person objected about self-identification on OR grounds. Morbidthoughts (talk) 17:17, 7 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[33]

Discussion concerning Bohemian Baltimore

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Bohemian Baltimore

I do not appreciate this transparent attempt to harass me and censor my contributions to Wikipedia. Each of these individuals was either adopted or self-identifies as Taíno. None of these people have tribal citizenship; the source of their Indigenous identity is very literally through their own self-identification rather than through any tribal citizenship. As for the ArbCom discussion, where is this "consensus"? Where is this stated and by whom? What binding precedent was set or rules established for editing? Please, enlighten me. What exactly am I missing here? It is very disappointing and alarming that this user is deploying strong-arm tactics to permanently suppress the contributions of Native and allied editors. This is not the first time this editor has defamed or harassed me, based on his own idiosyncratic and self-declared definition of self-identification. There are many ways to handle disputes. Trying to get me banned from editing is outrageous and controlling and it undermines Wikipedia's diversity. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 10:02, 31 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Raladic Please stick to the topic. I regard dragging these long dead and irrelevant debates into this conversation as a smear. I made an attempt to improve visibility for gay, lesbian, transgender, and bisexual people; to address erasure and invisibility of LGBT people, as a proud member of the LGBT community. I will not apologize for being queer. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 09:38, 31 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

@ScottishFinnishRadish What knowledge do you have of tribal citizenship? Is this a topic you have attempted to research and educate yourself on before declaring that I should be banned? Tribal citizenship is very much verifiable and defining. The fact that the Taino have no tribal citizenship is not "original research". It's simply a fact. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 17:07, 31 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Valereee American Indian tribes under law are sovereign nations with citizens. There are neo-Taíno revivalist organizations that promote Taíno identity and who promote reviving a distinct Taíno culture, which was assimilated into the Spanish-speaking Puerto Rican culture centuries ago. However, these non-profit organizations are not tribes. Typically, they are registered as 501c3s. They have no citizens. They have no sovereignty. The basis of their identity is purely through their own self-identification, rather than any legal status. Whether or not a group should be recognized as a tribe is an opinion. Not that my opinion really matters, but I know of several groups of American Indian descendants who have no recognition as a tribe, but who I think should be recognized. The Taíno revivalists lack of any sovereign nation is a fact, not an opinion. A Puerto Rican who self-identifies as Taíno is simply a US citizen. Whereas, for example, an enrolled Cherokee Nation member is both a citizen of the US and a citizen of the Cherokee Nation. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 05:08, 1 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Newyorkbrad In the United States, American Indian tribes are defined as "domestic dependent, sovereign nations" under law with government-to-government relationships with the US government. Members of tribes are citizens of sovereign nations. Being Native American is a matter of citizenship and sovereignty, not merely a question of race, color, ethnicity, or ancestry. There are no Taíno tribes in the United States. Due to genocide, disease, assimilation and other factors, the Taíno assimilated into the larger Puerto Rican population. The Taíno language is extinct. The Taíno as a culturally distinct people have not existed for centuries. In recent years, some Puerto Ricans have begun to self-identify as Taíno based on their DNA heritage. These neo-Taínos self-identify as Indigenous due to centuries old Indigenous ancestry. No Taíno group is recognized as a sovereign nation. That is to say, neo-Taíno identity is inherently a question of self-identification rather than citizenship in a sovereign nation. Puerto Ricans who self-identify as neo-Taíno are US citizens and they have no additional tribal citizenship. The term "self-identification", while wrongly perceived by some uninformed white editors as a pejorative term, is actually widely used by Indigenous peoples. The term is used by the Department of the Interior, the United Nations, the Organization of American States, and many other bodies. The fact that neo-Taíno revivalists have no recognition as sovereign nations is just that, a fact. The question of whether a neo-Taíno group should be recognized is a separate matter. That's an opinion. Their lack of sovereignty is not an opinion. It is a fact. Right now, historical Taíno people of Puerto Rico who lived during colonial and pre-colonial times are in the category Category:Taíno people from Puerto Rico. Whereas, neo-Taíno revivalists were listed under Category:Puerto Rican people who self-identify as being of Taíno descent. That category was emptied and nominated for deletion. The people who were in the category are now under Category:Puerto Rican people of Taíno descent. The historic Taíno people are clearly distinct from neo-Taíno revivalists who invoke DNA heritage, and for navigational purposes there should be separate categories for these separate groups of people. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 04:55, 1 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Raladic I really despise having to re-hash ancient and irrelevant drama, but some of the categories I created were actually kept. So actually, it was a useful and productive conversation about the visibility of queer people within the ace community, and about the definition of bisexuality (and the "two or more genders" definition I used is actually widespread and normative, despite Wikipedia's fossilized conservatism on these matters). I do not like homophobia. I do not like being subject to homophobic attacks. These old conversations have been irrelevantly thrown in my face, on-Wiki and off-Wiki, by multiple people. Your intent doesn't really make a difference. To assume good faith, I am sure you and Mason think of yourselves as harmlessly correcting mistakes. Whereas, I view it as objectively homophobic as it creates a hostile environment for queer editors. I do not feel welcomed or respected as a queer person on Wikipedia. I feel defamed and excluded. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 05:18, 1 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Theleekycauldron Unbelievable. Name one time there has been a "behavioral problem" in regards to Jewish topics. I'm a queer Jew and I have contributed greatly to queer, Jewish, and queer Jewish topics on Wikipedia. This discussion has clearly gotten out of hand. The proposal was to topic ban me from Indigenous self-identification. Now, I am being told I should basically be banned from almost every topic I focus on. This is just censorship, at this point. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 01:05, 13 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Seraphimblade I discuss the atmosphere of racism and homophobia on Wikipedia, problems I consider structural rather than individual. This is something Wikipedia acknowledges is a problem, for example, in these articles: Racial bias on Wikipedia, Gender bias on Wikipedia. I do not say that a person is a racist or a homophobe in any of the cited examples. My concern here is whether this amounts to tone policing or not, and I worry that clamping down on editors for discussing problems of perceived or actual racial bias or any other kind of bias will create a chilling climate that discourages diverse voices from participating. Particularly when what is widely considered acceptable evidence or an acceptable argument often falls in the favor of the majority group. I think it is also important to remember that perceptions of who is "aggressive" and who is merely assertive or blunt is often colored by biases of various kinds; whether they be sexual, racial, ethnic, religious, or economic. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 02:30, 13 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Theleekycauldron I would appreciate factual statements, rather than false statements. Name one time I called anyone an idiot on Wikipedia. Where have I stated that someone was acting in bad faith? I talk about Racial bias on Wikipedia, and indeed there's a whole article about the problem, because Wikipedia acknowledges that it is a problem. Discussing the problem of racism is not maligning people. And if we are supposed to be quiet and hush about the racial bias on Wikipedia, then that silences the ability of diverse voices to participate and it hold Wikipedia back. Saying that I should be topic banned from basically everything I edit because I'm apparently not nice enough or pleasing enough is addressing my personality, not the substance of what I write. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 01:20, 13 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
@ScottishFinnishRadish As I mentioned and linked above, there's been a whisper campaign on Tumblr to "stop" me and other editors (including @User:Doug Weller, for some inexplicable reason). Pingnova and at least one other Wikipedia editor (prismatic-bell, Wiki username unknown) have participated in this discussion, that we know of. There could be others. The Tumblr user Moniquill (Monique "Blackgoose" Poirier of the Seaconke Wampanoag Tribe) and her followers have insinuated that because they disagree with my Indigenous-related editing, that I'm automatically suspicious on any Jewish or LGBTQ matter. My Jewish editing has never been contested. My LGBTQ editing of many, many years was questioned on one occasion based on a differing opinion on who is LGBTQ (the question was whether asexuals who identify as straight are queer, believe it or not), and some of the categories I created were actually kept in those discussions. So, the idea that I am some "controversial" person is a manufactured idea being promoted by individuals who have a vested interest in a particular Indigenous viewpoint, and vested interests in me being quiet. I think that's wrong and that I'm being unfairly maligned. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 02:03, 13 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Vanamonde93 It's also a long-dead dispute that was decided upon and the decisions of which I respected, and it has not been an issue since. Furthermore, some of the categories I created were actually kept, so not all of the edits I made were contested let alone deleted. I'm concerned that my personality is under scrutiny here when we should be focusing on the subject of Indigenous self-identification. I'm also alarmed that some Wikipedia editors have spoken negatively about me on Tumblr, which makes me fear that canvassing in happening. This thread in particular on Tumblr attacks me and insinuates that I might be anti-Jewish or anti-LGBTQ (I'm a queer Jew), simply because they objected to my Native-related edits. So I find it suspicious that all of the issues in that Tumblr thread are being dredged up here, when the issue was narrowly about Indigenous self-identification. The Tumblr user prismatic-bell, who also mentions being a Wikipedia editor, wrote: "Would it be worth it to see if there’s overlap between these malicious editors, and if so, make that an additional angle of approach? I feel like the more groups we can prove are being harmed, the more likely Wikipedia will be to remedy the issue", as well as later writing "And what do we do to stop them, re: the rest?", suggesting they are advocating that something be done against me and other editors. The editor Doug Weller is also singled out for scrutiny. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 01:42, 13 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Barkeep49 If "aspersions and accusations are important to note", then I would argue that the above mentioned off-wiki whisper campaign to "stop" me and other editors, involving at least two Wikipedia editors (one of whom is right here in this discussion) is also something to be noted. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 01:49, 13 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Seraphimblade Notifying you of this whisper campaign as well. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 02:15, 13 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

I would like to request that @User:Pingnova edit the comment about me to "they". I am not a "he". Thank you. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 02:57, 13 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Yuchitown I think now that we see people expanding the question, and saying that I should be banned from all Indigenous topics and all Jewish topics and all LGBTQ topics, and perhaps even banned from all topics related to any "marginalized peoples", that this is no longer a question of policy. It's a question of personality. Effectively, a number of people are chiming in to advocate that I simply be banned from editing almost every topic I focus on. That's censorship targeting an individual. It's harmful to me, but beyond that, it harms Wikipedia and reduces the diversity of voices here. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 01:10, 13 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@ScottishFinnishRadish When I wrote, "I hope these are mistakes on your part", that is explicitly NOT claiming that the person is racist. And that person agreed that it was a mistake, so I was correct. Furthermore, I never accused the person above of being homophobic themselves. In fact, I explicitly stated that I did not think that person was acting in bad faith. I am surprised that my words are being characterized as overly harsh, when on both occasions I went out of my way to acknowledge that the other person was likely simply mistaken. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 02:47, 13 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@ScottishFinnishRadish I would like to reiterate that you and other admins are aware that there is a canvassing and harassment campaign against me and the issue was never addressed. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 03:13, 15 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@ScottishFinnishRadish I would also like to know why I would be banned from editing on Jewish-related topics. My Jewish-related editing has never been disputed, nor has anyone here given a reason any example of problematic editing around Jews/Judaism. Not examples, let alone a pattern. This is overkill. It's extreme and it makes zero sense. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 03:17, 15 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
@ScottishFinnishRadish Furthermore, what does "self-identification or citizenship of living or recently deceased people" even mean? That's so broad it could mean almost anything. Am I going to be slapped with a warning, for example, if I categorize someone as an "American writer", because that's a reference to citizenship? Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 03:22, 15 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by Raladic

A similar issue around identities also occurred a few months ago in the LGBTQ space when @BB created a series of erroneous categories and tried to shift categories into sub-categories that would mis-categorize people with different LGBTQ identities. Refer to User talk:Bohemian Baltimore#Aromanticism and Asexuality are the A of LGBTQIA+ and Intersex is the I and is inherently an LGBTQIA+ identity and this one User talk:Bohemian Baltimore#Pansexuality is not the same as bisexuality by @Mason for context. And the resulting cleanup that had to be made afterwards per Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 April 7#Category:LGBT asexual people these wrong categorizations. So it does appear that the user may have a pattern of, while good-faith, wrong categorizations of BLPs, which are problematic, so a warning to be more careful of working on categorization of BLPs may be appropriate. Raladic (talk) 03:48, 31 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

No smear is intended, I merely pointed out that as I said above, that while I fully believe you made the changes in good faith, they were clerically incorrect as was pointed out in the subsequent discussions. I also fully appreciate you trying to increase visibility for LGBTQ people, as that is where I spend a lot of my time on Wikipedia as well as a queer person myself. Raladic (talk) 14:12, 31 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

I am concerned that it appears that BB is doubling down with their latest series of replies today and have still not struck/retracted their accusation here, despite having been asked by @Vanamonde93 several days ago here. It looks like they are not able to see their own baseless accusations when all the other editors did point out an erroneous categorization on their part and by the looks of this here, they still disagree despite multiple editors having explained their misunderstanding. Raladic (talk) 02:56, 13 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by Valereee

I had similar interactions at Talk:Indigenous_cuisine_of_the_Americas#Content/context_removal? regarding removal of identification of individuals as native American in Wikivoice over the tribe not being recognized by federal/state governments, at that article and at Louis Trevino and Vincent Medina. BB wanted to insert 'self-identify as'. They did drop it after I pointed out the NYT was calling them Ohlone and another editor reverted them, but BB does seem to be pretty focussed on the concept of self-identification (vs. identifying in WV) of BLPs if they don't agree a group officially exists or how it's defined? Valereee (talk) 12:22, 31 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

NYB, I'd like to hear that explanation w/re: identification of members of any tribe that isn't officially recognized by a government body. Valereee (talk) 15:19, 31 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Bohemian Baltimore, so you are saying that if a tribe isn't officially recognized by a government body, Wikipedia should be referring to folks as "self-identified", even if RS are referring to them as tribal members, because no one can actually be a member of a such a tribe? Valereee (talk) 17:23, 31 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

This category page lists notable citizens of the United States who claim to have Shoshone ancestry but who have no proof of this heritage. In some cases they make the claim despite having been proven to have no Shoshone heritage at all is pointy, RGW, and a BLP vio. I'm sympathetic to the fact there are many people out there making such false claims, but I feel like this is basically categorizing people as liars. Valereee (talk) 12:54, 2 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by Yuchitown

Bohemian Baltimore should not be banned from Native American topics. None of their edits to topics relating to Indian Country have been controversial or contested. Instead, MorbidThoughts has followed Bohemian Baltimore around and decided unilaterally that “self-identified” must be censored with certain individuals from Wikipedia. I was part of the Norby noticeboard discussion; the consensus was that New York Post was not an WP:RS and WP:CLAIM precludes the use of the word “claim” in BLPs. Native American identity is controversial and contested; it is a unique political identity in the United States.[34] In published literature about Native American identity, variations of “self-identified” are used freely (examples here). Self-identified does not mean “fraud”; it means exactly what the dictionary states: “To identify or describe oneself as belonging to a particular category or group of people; to assign a particular characteristic or categorization to oneself.”[35] A unique phenomenon has evolved in the US of tens of thousands of people believing and stating they have Native American ancestry without substantiating that belief (discussion and citations can be found at Cherokee descent). Making a statement of Native American descent is self-identification. I’ve yet to see anyone produce a published citation saying that the term “self-identification” is an unacceptable term in regard to statements of Native American descent. If MorbidThoughts would like to propose the censorship of this term as Wikipedia policy, they need to go through that process, as opposed to unilaterally deciding it is Wikipedia policy and attempting to get Bohemian Baltimore topic-banned based on their unsourced, personal feelings. Yuchitown (talk) 14:49, 1 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

For those suggesting a topic ban, I'd just like reiterate that Bohemian Baltimore's edits to topics related to Indian Country and to federally recognized tribes have not be remotely controversial and have been extremely helpful. The contested gray area of unrecognized organizations and individuals have been the topic areas where other editors have made pushbacks. It would be a loss to the encyclopedia to lose this editor's contributions to Indian Country topics. These two topic areas are not the same. Yuchitown (talk) 19:18, 10 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by Aquillion

My concern reading this, conductwise, is WP:FAIT - it is clear from eg. the CFD discussion (where Baltimore participated) that the categories Bohemian Baltimore created are highly contentious. Numerous other discussions and objections since have made that even more clear. Yet they seem to have taken the no-consensus outcome as a green light to go around making hundreds of replacements, effectively trying to ram through the template's usage via FAIT without ever going through the discussion necessary to do so. Obviously that discussion is now necessary, but since they've shown that they're not going to wait on it, my suggestion is that Bohemian Baltimore be barred from implying that any aspect of someone's identity is self-identified, or creating, using, applying, or reapplying any categories of that nature until / unless a clear affirmative consensus is reached to do so or under what circumstances to do so. I don't think that this is just a content dispute - that would be true if this was just on one or two articles; WP:BOLD protects a few individual edits. But making the sorts of systematic changes that Bohemian Baltimore has been doing after editors have objected is trying to force your opinions through by FAIT and is inappropriate. --Aquillion (talk) 15:24, 1 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by Clayoquot

Courtesy ping to HouseBlaster who closed the relevant CFD discussion as "no consensus, therefore keep". Some of the statements being made here could be read as challenging that closure. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 16:19, 1 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Barkeep49 I agree that there's a difference between whether or not a category should exist and how particular editors use it. In practice though, since it's rare for RS to say that a given individual self-identifies as X, requiring RS to use a category is almost the same thing as deleting the category. I like your thinking that a community noticeboard discussion on how to use "self-identify" in BLPs could be fruitful. Many participants in the CfD discussion tried to discuss that issue but it probably wasn't the right venue. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 16:54, 1 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

A core issue seems to be whether "self-identifies as..." is contentious material. In the CfD and on this page I see arguments both ways - to some it seems obviously contentious, and others put forth academically-sourced arguments that it's not contentious at all. A community consensus on whether it is or is not contentious would be helpful. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 20:44, 1 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

I agree that Bohemian Baltimore's wording in the category pages was a BLP violation. I fixed one just now and noticed that nobody else had tried to do it.[36] For the other non-deleted category pages named in this enforcement request, there has also been no effort made to edit the page to remove BLP problems.[37][38] (I will go fix them after I publish this comment). Re-editing a page is the first part of community-based dispute resolution and in some cases it has not been done, which suggests that very little community-based dispute resolution has been tried. Things seem to be headed in the direction of "If the community hasn't decided whether something is a BLP violation, file a complaint and the admins at AE will decide." Is that how Wikipedia is supposed to work? Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 19:34, 2 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by Nil Einne

In response to Yuchitown, the BLPN discussion established the obvious. You cannot claim someone "self-identifies" as something unless supported by sources. Whether you want to call it pejorative, it doesn't matter much. BLP policy establishes that we shouldn't be adding unsourced content to articles point blank which includes saying someone self-identifies when it isn't what the sources say is. If sources said something like "according to subject A, they are Navajo" or "subject A has informed us they are of Navajo descent" then perhaps we could count that as self identification. But when the source says [39] "Only when he was contacted by his birth mother decades later (a Fed-Ex package with photos and a letter) did he learn that his biological father was a Mexican Navajo Indian."; this isn't the same thing. We assume that sources have done what they feel is necessary to verify claims they present, and this source has said "his biological father was a Mexican Navajo Indian" not "his biological father self-identified" or "the person he believes is his biological father". Therefore we take this claim at face value as being true and don't add our own interpretations. From what I've seen, most of the time, there's no reliable secondary sources on whether the subject has tribal citizenship. So commentary on the lack of tribal citizenship isoften WP:OR based on primary sources (i.e. looking into records or worse asking the tribe themselves) or based on non RS (e.g. blogs). That said if RSS do mention lack of tribal citizenship we should present this in our article, and can consider how to handle this in categories. But it's unlikely via a self-identification one. Nil Einne (talk) 07:40, 3 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Another example of Bohemian Baltimore's problematic editing [40]. Removing the indigenous Mexican category is fine, was nothing in our article supporting it. But they not only added a self-identification category but added text to present the claim. The source they used [41] only says "Her maternal grandmother was of Spanish and Shoshone Native American ancestry". Nothing suggests this self-identification. The Walk of Fame probably doesn't have a reputation for fact checking so we IMO shouldn't present the claim of Shoshone ancestry as true. But we have no idea whether this was from Swank, a publicist or whatever else nor what evidence there is. With no source demonstrating this is a wider concern there's no reason to mention this at all. [42] Nil Einne (talk) 08:00, 3 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by Hemiauchenia

Although this is not related to the conduct at hand, I was concerned by the baseless personal attacks Bohemian Baltimore made in Talk:African-American_Jews#Merge_Proposal a few weeks ago, where he without foundation accuses editors in the discussion of displaying overt anti-Black racism [43] for having the audacity of... proposing that an article BB wrote be merged? Making baseless racism accusations is really unacceptable, especially for an editor with as many edits and as long a tenure as BB. Hemiauchenia (talk) 15:50, 7 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by Pingnova

@Barkeep49 Here are a couple instances when Bohemian Baltimore has been incivil or disruptive when discussing this topic outside mainspace: Talk:Guainía_Taíno_Tribe and Talk:History_of_Georgetown_University#White_supremacy.
Pushing OR: Talk:Bessie_Coleman#Not_Native and Talk:Bessie_Coleman#Native_American_claim. This is only one page, but is a theme with them.
They also pushe the WP:FRINGE theory that Native Americans are not a race or ethnic category: Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_October_15#Category:American_people_who_self-identify_as_being_of_Native_American_descent.
Bohemian Baltimore seems preoccupied with editing unsupported claims of race fraud into BLPs (and other pages) and has made such edits to hundreds of pages. Their OR frequently includes looking up 100 year old family census records, as with the Bessie Coleman article. These edits are not based on RS. Their editing is extremely disruptive to the topic area. Tracking down and fixing all of them will take some time. The Native American topic area has only a few regular editors. Additionally I think we should take extra caution in this case because they are targeting marginalized people, especially living marginalized people, and are pushing race WP:FRINGE. Pingnova (talk) 03:44, 9 November 2024 (UTC) Moved comment to own section. Please comment only in this section. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 05:45, 9 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by Andrevan

I'd like to offer Talk:African-American_Jews#Merge_Proposal from last month, Bohemian Baltimore accused other editors of anti-Black racism[44] because they proposed merging Black Jews in New York City and had extensively edited that article to remove the Black Hebrew Israelite content, based on a discussion at Fringe noticeboard. Whether or not you disagree with the idea that Black Hebrew Israelites and Black Jews shouldn't be mixed together or whether or not you agree that there is not enough material to have a separate article about Black Jews in New York City versus being part of African-American Jews, I don't think it's really appropriate to accuse editors of racism simply for those editorial content decisions.Andre🚐 03:05, 13 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Sorry, I see this was already mentioned, I missed it. Andre🚐 03:09, 13 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by theleekycauldron

Here's a list of things Bohemian Baltimore has said, all of which are in violation of WP:AGF, WP:NPA, and/or WP:ASPERSION:

They questioned CaroleHenson on whether or not they had a "reading comprehension issue".
They said everyone in this thread was "erasing Black Jews" because they wanted to merge Black Jews in New York City to African-American Jews. (Which, as Warrenmck tried to explain to them, doesn't erase Black Jews, but they didn't hear that.)
They also said in the same thread that Warrenmck was "turn[ing] this into an anti-Black witch hunt" for trying to remove Black Hebrew Israelites content from Black Jews in New York City.
They said in an edit summary that Warrenmck's removal of content about a Black Orthodox Jew in the midst of the same removal was "smearing" before they had a chance to say, as they did an hour later, that it was a mistake. Never apologized or retracted it. (I believe it was them who said that claiming that editors are disingenuous in intention is tantamount to calling them liars.)
They referred to this AE filing as a transparent attempt to harass me and censor my contributions to Wikipedia, which I see no evidence of.
They said the thread filer is deploying strong-arm tactics to permanently suppress the contributions of Native and allied editors, which they did not provide evidence for.
They implied in this thread that Raladic wants them to apologize for being queer, when they haven't come close to saying any such thing.
They insisted that merging Category:LGBT asexual women to Category:Asexual women was erasure of asexual and intersex people who are gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender and not a recognition that asexual women are broadly accepted as part of the LGBT community.

theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 08:10, 14 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Bohemian Baltimore

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I'm interested in hearing Bohemian Baltimore's response while I go through the background. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:27, 30 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Each of these individuals was either adopted or self-identifies as Taíno. None of these people have tribal citizenship; the source of their Indigenous identity is very literally through their own self-identification rather than through any tribal citizenship. None of this is covered in the articles, and appears to be WP:OR. WP:CATDEFINE says A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently refer to in describing the topic, such as the nationality of a person or the geographic location of a place. These edits clearly fail that bar for categorization. I'm thinking a topic ban from the identification and citizenship of indigenous people. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:34, 31 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
The diffs above are not about tribal citizenship, but about descent. What you say above, some Puerto Ricans have begun to self-identify as Taíno based on their DNA heritage, is about being of Taino descent. Everything else you've said about this falls firmly under WP:OR as it applies to specific living people. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:32, 1 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Clayoquot, if there is this much disagreement about it then it is fairly plainly contentious. WP:BLP says Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—must be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion. Users who persistently or egregiously violate this policy may be blocked from editing. Even if the self-identified label is neutral or even positive there is clearly contention about its use. In this situation no sources have been provided using the label, so it is unsourced, and arguments made here about its inclusion amount to WP:OR. Content policies, with OR specifically called out, must be strictly followed when dealing with BLPs.

I agree that there should be a broad community discussion about this, but as it stands applying the label without consensus and sourcing is a violation of our BLP policy. These violations have been persistent, and I would say after the amount of discussion on the topic clearly demonstrating a lack of consensus for inclusion, egregious. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:01, 1 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Bohemian Baltimore: Before I evaluate this, can you please clarify what you mean by "tribal citizenship" as a member of the Taino people? I am certainly not an expert, but my understanding is that the Taino people are not a legally organized tribe, and that the ongoing efforts to create a registry of Taino citizens are unofficial and are themselves based on self-identification and voluntary registration. What criteria are you using to separate people whom you feel belong in Category:Puerto Rican people who self-identify as being of Taíno descent as opposed to Category:Puerto Rican people of Taíno descent? Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:14, 31 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
The idea, as Valereee writes, that we can only identify a characteristic of a person if it is government recognized regardless of what RS says (meaning, for instance, we could possibly have to label someone born in Ontario as "self-identified male/female/non-binary" because their birth certificates do not require any gender/sex field[45]) strikes me as an extreme position. But I feel we're in content decision territory here rather than BLP contentious topic violations and so this would either need to go to a community noticeboard - where there are more options for an uneasy mixing of the two - or have a content decision on this that Bohemian Baltimore is then violating in order for us to sanction them here. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:08, 1 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Although there is not firmly established consensus, with BLP that defaults to exclude contentious labeling. Bohemian Baltimore is obviously aware of the contentious nature of these edits, and continues to make them without consensus or sourcing. To me that falls far enough on the wrong side of WP:BLP that a narrow topic ban on the identification of indigenous peoples, even if limited to such a time as consensus supports their position, is called for. Trying to force through contentious labels on BLPs without consensus is disruptive. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:37, 1 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
That's a really good point and you've convinced me that we can address the issue here. Per the other feedback, I'm definitely not ready to topic ban them from indigenous people and I wonder if even your narrow topic ban could impact positive work mentioned by some others above. So what if instead we issue a consensus required to change the identification of indigenous people restriction? Obviously we normally apply CR to articles not editors, but in this case I think them needing to get consensus before changing would address the issue at hand while still allowing them to do the other work. And per your comment - should there be a topic wide consensus formed (through an appropriate RfC held at a place like a Village pump) that these kinds of changes are appropriate the restriction effectively goes away. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:10, 1 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Clayoquot there's a difference between whether or not a category should exist and how particular editors use it. The fact that there is not even consensus about its existence - I read that CfD at the time - does actually say to me that a higher degree of care is needed by those who do use it. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:22, 1 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Bohemian Baltimore needs to recognize that whatever their beliefs may be about the logical categorization of people of Taino heritage vs other indigenous groups, Wikipedia cannot apply labels unsupported by reliable sources. Absent such recognition I think the TBAN SFR proposes is necessary. Vanamonde93 (talk) 16:05, 1 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Bohemian Baltimore If an editor were engaging in homophobic behavior toward you, they would be sanctioned for it. For that very reason, it's a serious accusation that needs to be backed up by evidence. I'm not seeing anything in this discussion that constitutes a homophobic attack. Please provide evidence, or retract that claim. Vanamonde93 (talk) 15:35, 2 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
I think it should be clear just from reading the discussions over this matter that this is clearly a contentious thing to say about someone. So, we don't need to get into great intricacy of what a rather obscure part of the MOS says, or anything like that. WP:BLP is very clear on the point: Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—must be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion. Saying "self-identifies" is in this case clearly contentious. If the sources don't unambiguously support that, it must be removed immediately and may not be restored without clear and unambiguous consensus, and anyone who does unilaterally restore it is engaged in sanctionable misconduct. I would also reiterate that there is a difference between the question of a category's existence, and its appropriateness of use. Category:Drug dealers exists, and should, but its use on a given article could still most certainly be a violation of BLP unless reliable sources unequivocally back up that it belongs there. Similarly, it seems the issue is not the existence of these categories, but their use in a lot of particular instances where the sources do not seem to back that. As to the instant case, I have no objection to a topic ban for Bohemian Baltimore since they obviously have no plans to stop doing this without such a sanction, but I'm afraid that in itself, that will not solve the BLP issues here, which seem by now to have become quite widespread. I think we might need to consider wider-scale action to address that, but I'm not yet sure what that looks like. I see above that a "consensus required" provision was mentioned, and there is in principle no reason that a "consensus required" sanction could not be added to a category, so perhaps a first step could be a "consensus required" restriction to add (or re-add) these categories to any article? If we did that, topic bans on individuals may not be necessary, provided that they will in fact abide by that restriction. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 13:40, 4 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
I think I could support such a sanction, but surely the first step is simply enforcing WP:NOR; categories may not be used without supporting sources that are in the article, and doing so is already grounds for sanction. Vanamonde93 (talk) 05:05, 5 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
I'm pretty sure we can make that type of sanction at AE with a rough consensus, but I'm with Vanamonde that we should start by enforcing policy around BLPs normally. I would hope that if editors see that we're taking action on this they'll be less likely to engage in the same type of editing. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:17, 5 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Well, let's give that a try first then. Hopefully it will suffice, if not we can always look at it again later. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 20:28, 5 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
What is the "this" (that) which e're giving a first try? Barkeep49 (talk) 20:30, 5 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
A topic ban from the identification and citizenship of indigenous people is what I proposed above. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:32, 5 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Do we have evidence of disruption with discussion? Because if not I'd still prefer we allow them that. Barkeep49 (talk) 22:04, 5 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
I don't think we've been given evidence of that. I'm fine with a article space topic ban, unless evidence of disruption in discussions is provided. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:53, 5 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

The link to the discussion provided by Hemiauchenia does show poor behavior, and there was a second inappropriate comment. This does (somewhat) fall under the BLP CTOP, but is different than the issue we're discussing here. Combined with the aspersions above of homophobic attacks, I think along with the topic ban we should issue a warning about aspersions and accusations. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:00, 7 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Barkeep49, would you see the above as evidence of disruption with discussion? I know I certainly do, so I would be more in favor of an overall topic ban, discussion included, than an article-only one. Throwing around baseless accusations like that is quite disruptive to a discussion, and between here and the above article merge discussion, it seems to indicate that's a pattern of behavior, not a one-time mistake. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 16:30, 7 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Yes. That is evidence of disruption during discussions for me. It also is outside of the scope of the proposed topic ban. My bigger thinking is that I think Bohemian Baltimore is doing work the encyclopedia benefits from and so if there are ways we can have them focus on that work I'd like to try it. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:39, 7 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
I do not think a topic-ban is needed at this time, unless there is evidence of additional problems after this discussion. I perceive the challenged edits as based on a good-faith understanding of the underlying issue, and as being quite defensible as within policy (since any living person's identification as of Taino descent may have a subjective component). Of course there are other arguments against changing the category (because the "self-identified" wording has an unjustified accusatory overtone), and consensus seems to be against doing so, but is there evidence that BB is now disregarding that consensus? If not, a reminder to be circumspect and to maintain civility on these sensitive and difficult topics hopefully should, in my view, be sufficient at this time. Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:31, 8 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
I am surprised you find his answer to your Taino question sufficient @Newyorkbrad as that answer helped push me towards sanction. Ialso find the evidence presented by Nil Einne, Pingnova, and Valeree of problems sufficient for a topic ban. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:25, 10 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Barkeep49: The consensus here seems to favor your view. Newyorkbrad (talk) 09:46, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Bohemian Baltimore's behavior is incredibly aggressive and disruptive. Reading through the diffs in this thread and the thread itself, I can't imagine how people are supposed to collaborate with them when they malign their detractors as idiots, bigots, and bad-faith actors without anything approaching evidence. (Look at Hemiauchenia's thread, the filer diffs, Raladic's thread, and literally this page.) I think the best solution here would be a topic ban from self-identification with marginalized groups, broadly construed, but since that's not a CTOP, i support topic ban per ScottishFinnishRadish. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 18:31, 10 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
I think the self-identification falls under BLP which is a CT and thus something we could do. Barkeep49 (talk) 18:59, 10 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
a BLP self-identification with marginalized groups TBAN works for me :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 19:09, 10 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

oh, Self-trout, I assumed SFR was proposing a topic ban from indigenous groups (which, as it turns out, isn't a CTOP either!), but they've actually proposed one around identification of BLPs with indigenous groups. I would extend it beyond indigenous groups, since they have the same behavioral problems in the Jewish and LGBTQ topic areas, but yes, support that suggestion too. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 19:12, 10 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Bohemian Baltimore: I never said you used the word "idiot", just like I never said you used the words "bad-faith actor". I am going to list what you did say in a separate statement above, because the list is frankly too long to put here. Would recommend that other admins read it.

But, no, you're not just "discussing the problem of racism", and no one is saying that you should be "quiet and hush about the racial bias on Wikipedia", and I'm not pearl-clutching ("feigning an overreaction with a typically bad-faith invocation of WP:CIVIL"). You have a pattern of accusing people of intentionally suppressing you and/or marginalized groups simply because they hold views that aren't yours, and that's not acceptable behavior. The reason I think your topic ban shouldn't be limited to Indigenous people is that your accusations and aspersions aren't, either. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 08:08, 14 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Though it borders on blasphemy to disagree with Newyorkbrad about arbitration matters, I do disagree. Very basically BB is not showing a willingness to stick to what sources say. That's a problem anywhere, and particularly a problem in this fraught topic. I still support a TBAN with the scope suggested above. I recognize that there have been problems with categories on biographies of queer folk, but I'm leery of a TBAN there simply because it seems to me a recipe for wikilawyering, given that the dispute they were involved in was with respect to the boundaries of "LGBT". Vanamonde93 (talk) 00:50, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Vanamonde93: Please don't worry about disagreeing with me. I probably cast more solo dissenting votes while I was on the Committee than everyone else put together, so why should it stop now? Obviously there is a consensus here that agrees with you. Newyorkbrad (talk) 09:46, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
We just need a bit of clarification of where support lies, and we can wrap this up. We have on the table currently:
1. A topic ban on the identification and citizenship of indigenous people, broadly construed
2. A topic ban on the identification and citizenship of indigenous people, mainspace only, broadly construed
3. A topic ban on self-identification of marginalized groups, broadly construed
4. A warning for casting aspersions and accusations
I think marginalized groups is too blurry to make an effective topic ban. I believe there has been enough demonstration of issues with their discussions to go for the full topic ban on identification and citizenship of indigenous people without the allowance for talk discussion, but I'm not so opposed to allowing discussion that I would hold things up over it, although it looks like the rough consensus here covers talk pages as well. At the risk of adding another thing to consider this late into the process there's a topic ban on the self-identification or citizenship of living or recently deceased people (we'll call this 5), which covers marginalized groups without any blurry edges. If we think there is enough concern to be talking about specific tbans covering marginalized groups, LGBT people, and Jewish people then I think self-identification and citizenship of BLPs is tight enough to allow their editing to continue, but broad enough to stop disruption. Call me in support of 1, 4, and 5. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:24, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
I support the bolded topic ban proposal (which I see as inclusive of discussion). Barkeep49 (talk) 16:57, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

I would support 1 and 5, and 4 in addition to but not instead of one of those. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 20:33, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
For me we're going beyond the warning with the topic ban we're choosing to enact. But yes the aspersions and accusations are important to note. Barkeep49 (talk) 21:23, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Support 4 and 5 simultaneously, oppose 1 and 2 as too narrow (although support 1 if 2, 3, and 5 don't gain consensus). theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 10:44, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Barkeep49, are you opposed to the warning, or just ambivalent? Right now I would say we're on the edge of a consensus about the warning, with a solid consensus for the topic ban on the self-identification of living or recently deceased people. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:59, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
What is the warning doing here that the topic ban is not? We're not warning them for the other misbehavior they've displayed here - we're topic banning them. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:02, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
I do not like homophobia. I do not like being subject to homophobic attacks. These old conversations have been irrelevantly thrown in my face, on-Wiki and off-Wiki, by multiple people. is an example from this AE report. This and this are tangentially related. I see the topic ban as addressing the BLPvio, and the warning relating to communication style in general. I support the warning, but I also see that the reason for the warning is why you supported the broader topic ban that covers Talk: as well. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:14, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
For me, 1 or 5 (I'm fine with either) addresses the issue of trying to force what has proven to be highly contentious material into BLPs, so that's the misconduct leading to a topic ban (and TBs normally also cover talk page participation, so we're not taking any highly unusual step including that). 4 addresses the issue that, in addition to that, Bohemian Baltimore seems to have gotten into a habit of casting aspersions (and some pretty serious ones; most people would certainly not like to be called racist, homophobic, or the like) in discussions, and will need to drop that habit, not just in this topic area but in any discussions they may participate in going forward. If, going forward, they are going to bring such an accusation against any editor, they will need rock-solid evidence for it, not just to throw it out there. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 21:48, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Bohemian Baltimore, I have just had to move several comments from the admin discussion section to yours. Please comment only in your own section going forward. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 02:41, 13 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
I haven't looked at BB's wider edits, but it seems to me that the narrow issue of categories could be satisfactorily resolved with an RfC. It could just be an RfC about categories related to indigenous peoples of North America. Then BB and everyone else will be required to conform to it. I'm dubious of Theleekycauldron's suggestion about a wider RfC as there would be more argument about the scope than about the result. Zero^talk 03:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Bohemian Baltimore: You've alluded to an off-wiki canvassing campaign against you taking place on Tumblr in your comments above. I see that you have provided some links, though I am aware that it can be a bit hard to fully share all of that information on Wikipedia. If there is relevant information you cannot share on-wiki, I do hope that you collect evidence of the off-wiki coordination and send it to the Arbitration Committee, which is competent to review that sort of stuff and to take actions based on off-wiki evidence. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 03:20, 13 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
I'm seeing a rough consensus for a topic ban on the self-identification or citizenship of living or recently deceased people and a warning for casting aspersions and making accusations. Barring any administrator objection I'll close with that result soon. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:00, 14 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Shahray

Latest comment: 10 days ago12 comments8 people in discussion

Appeal declined. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:39, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user: Shahray (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Shahray (talk) 10:49, 3 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Sanction being appealed: ban for three months from editing anything related to the history of Ukraine and/or the Rus', see this thread [46]

Administrator imposing the sanction: Asilvering (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator: [47]

Statement by Shahray

I was topic banned by another editor for three months from editing "anything related to history of Ukraine or Rus', broadly interpreted". I was accused in "edit warring" in this topic. I acknowledge the fact that I was banned previously for edit warring, and understood the issue. But regarding this case, I believe I was wrongly banned, because of the following reasons:

1. This ban was initially appealed by Mellk. After a few responses on the talk page where I tried to discuss with them proposed changes in the article, they dropped out of discussion [48], refused to answer afterwards and headed to Asilvering's talk page instead, where they stated:"I still find it impossible to discuss with Shahray" [49]. Asilvering supported their behavior and even suggested to go to Notice Board, basing it solely on the fact that I was banned two times previously (one time by Asilvering). Mellk themself made some unconstractive reverts and edits with barely any explanation given [50] [51] [52], and even could respond to me from other editor perspective [53] without their approval first. I didn't have any such problem with other editors and followed the suggestions they've given to me [54].

2. I usually followed one revert rule everywhere and didn't continue to revert Mellk and tried to discuss instead.

3. Asilvering might unconstractively target me. Besides the support they gave to Mellk's behavior mentioned above, on their talk page, they ignored my comment and concerns about Mellk [55], and told them instead to "use it as evidence". Their block doesn't appears to be constructive either. I recently made RFC in Second Bulgarian Empire article about "Russian" anachronisms, but they removed it [56]even though there was not a single word about "Ukraine" or "Rus'".

I genuinely apologize where I could have made a few more reverts and didn't initially discussed. I won't revert (restore my changes) entirely if that helps. I will only revert changes done by other editors without reaching consensus. At least I am requesting to allow me to edit talk pages to broadly request comment from community for my changes like I did in Second Bulgarian Empire article.

@Vanamonde93, what have you considered as evidence? What Mellk quoted in first sentence is my comment regarding this block [57], with time I looked back at my behaviour there and and understood that I was a bit too pushing with my edits. But it's not appropriate to take this as evidence for the current case, I tried to follow 1 revert rule everywhere and discuss, and I addressed this to Mellk [58], which they didn't apperently denied. Shahray (talk) 08:41, 4 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@ScottishFinnishRadish, no it's not reasonable. You haven't provided any arguments for it to be reasonable and ignored what I said or apologizes I provided. Please judge fairly and reconsider your decision. Shahray (talk) 14:19, 4 November 2024 (UTC) Comment moved to own section. Please comment only in this section. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 14:23, 4 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Seraphimblade, I don't need to wait for 3 months, instead we can solve the problem quickly here and I won't do any disruptions again. I won't revert (restore my changes) at all if that helps, or revert only the changes other editors make which they haven't reached consensus for. My apologies for possible disruptions I have caused, but I promise I won't restore my content anymore without carefully reaching consensus. I hope for your understanding as well. Shahray (talk) 14:32, 4 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by Asilvering

Nothing much further to say, but happy to answer any questions. Please also see User talk:Asilvering#topic ban? -- asilvering (talk) 14:46, 3 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by (involved editor 1)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Shahray

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Ymblanter

Since the user does not seem to have understood why they were topic-banned, it might be a good idea to make the topic ban of indefinite duration, appealable in 3 months.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:58, 3 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by (uninvolved editor 2)

Result of the appeal by Shahray

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Shahray was sanctioned in response to this ANI discussion. The evidence there shows they are unable or unwilling to understand that they have not appropriately discussed contentious edits they have made, and bad conduct by other editors does not excuse that. I would decline this appeal. Vanamonde93 (talk) 22:21, 3 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Decline. This was a perfectly reasonable enforcement action. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:52, 4 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Shahray seems to be under the impression that "xRR" is an entitlement. Since this is a somewhat common misconception, I'll clear that up in hopes that in three months time things can go better. "xRR" means that "If you revert more than x times in 24 hours, you are almost certainly edit warring." It does not mean "If you revert fewer than x times in 24 hours, you are not edit warring." Repeated reverts, even if they technically stay under the xRR limit, can still be disruptive and cause for sanction. I don't see this as an unreasonable sanction, and would decline this appeal. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 14:22, 4 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Shahray's persistent inability to understand where to place their responses in an AE discussion does not inspire confidence that they suddenly understand the finer points of CTOPs editing. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 14:37, 4 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Decline. This is a singularly unpersuasive appeal, and is clear that the editor does not understand the reason for the sanction. Cullen328 (talk) 22:48, 4 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Request for 1RR at Fascism

Latest comment: 2 days ago11 comments5 people in discussion

This article had 1RR imposed indefinitely in 2009, by KrakatoaKatie, as an individual admin action. Judging based on comments so far, there's uncertainty about whether the restriction is enforceable. The options are to leave the restriction in limbo, remove the restriction, or have an admin adopt the restriction explicitly under CT, potentially AmPol. Are any admins willing to do so? There has been recent, AmPol-adjacent disruption of the article. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:47, 4 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

I think there's a serious issue with an article restriction stuck in limbo like this. Some admins and editors think it's in place and enforceable, and others think it's misplace and unenforceable. We should move in one direction or the other. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 16:16, 7 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

That is a bit of a pickle, since the content being edit warred over isn't really AP2, persay, so placing 1RR as a CTOP action is a bit squirrely. I don't think anyone would object to using AmPol in this way, but if someone did they would have a point that it is a borderline use of CTOP sanctions. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:26, 7 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

To make the connection a bit more explicit:

The main person recently edit warring to remove "far-right" as a descriptor of fascism is Johnny Spasm. I'll drop a formal notice at their talk page, but to be clear, I'm not advocating for enforcement action against him. Diffs of removal: 1, 2, 3, 4.
JS contextualized this repeated removal as an American-politics-related action in comments at the talk page:
1. dismissing the view of another editor and making assertions about their politics because they "live in Seattle, Washington" (diff)
2. identifying as an "American with far right beliefs" and arguing that "it is the far left in America that displays more fascist values than the far right", calling Biden out specifically (diff)
3. Criticizes the descriptor's inclusion while "both candidates in the US Presidential election are throwing around the word fascism" ([59])

If that's not enough of a connection, it's unlikely that enforcement of the 1RR could be reasonably connected to any other CT, and the restriction should be removed. Admins here, with experience judging which articles are covered by which CTs, are best placed to make the call to either adopt the restriction or remove it. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 18:22, 7 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Before assuming this as a CTOP action, has there been much edit warring other than the recent edit warring that resulted in a block? For an indefinite 1RR there should be a substantial history of edit warring. That 1RR looked like it was a response to an edit war almost 15 years ago, so absent more disruption I'd say let it lapse. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:53, 8 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

It's pretty actively edited, with multiple reversions in the past week. I have no objection to allowing it to lapse, though, replacing it if needed. KKatie hasn't edited in a week, maybe suspense for a few days as not urgent? Valereee (talk) 16:43, 9 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

There has not been any other recent major edit warring. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:13, 9 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

There was a minor edit war over the same left v. right issue on 10 November. Three editors involved, and one reverted twice. That editor has a brief enough edit history that it's easily gleaned that they are American or have a predominant interest in American topics. Only edit to a political bio is an American political bio.

Again, I wouldn't object to someone determining that this is not enough disruption and removing the restriction. Either side of this knife's edge would be good. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:25, 13 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

I agree that we should have a decision one way or another, but unless it's pressing I'm willing to wait a bit longer for KrakatoaKatie to weigh in. At this point I'm coming down on the side of removing 1RR. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:22, 13 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Gosh, I missed this discussion somehow. Sorry, everybody. :-( If there's no need, by all means let's lift it. I remember placing this, which is a minor miracle considering I don't remember to rinse the conditioner from my hair sometimes, and it was a barn burner of an edit war back then. I'm all for lifting stuff that's no longer necessary. Katie^talk 14:41, 13 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

It looks like lifting the restriction is agreed but I checked a couple of recent edits that asserted fascism is a far-left ideology (one editor went on to make the same claim regarding Nazism), and it is crystal-clear that it is an AP issue. I know we're supposed to be nice but edits like that warrant a NOTHERE or CIR indef, IMHO. While we have to welcome new editors, we also have a duty to support established editors who get worn down by the grinding river of ignorance. Johnuniq (talk) 01:11, 15 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Snowstormfigorion

Latest comment: 9 days ago7 comments4 people in discussion

Appeal declined. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:25, 7 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user : Snowstormfigorion (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Snowstormfigorion (talk) 21:28, 4 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Sanction being appealed: 6 month topic-ban from the Arab-Isreal conflict, broadly construed

Administrator imposing the sanction: Vanamonde93 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator: Diff

Statement by Snowstormfigorion

The ban concerns two edits (first and second), as well as what the imposing-admin states to be re-inserting of content where verifiability is in dispute without engaging in discussion in the talk page; see here.

As I have explained to the admin, I did not participate much in the discussion as I truly had no strong preference for either of the options listed. And regarding the verification concerns, I was genuinely under the belief that the verification issue was a matter of debate between the two sides, rather than an established fact; had I known the latter, I would not have made the two edits restoring the original phrasing and removing the verification tags. The admin also mentions that I responded to being told I was inserting misinformation and that the tags were not removed by an editor, Andrevan, making the same reverts as I was. As with the former, I truthfully believed that the issue was a topic of discussion, and thus, that what I was told was a side of that discussion and that Andre was misled in this case; clearly, I was.

I understand the significance of administrators' role in ensuring a healthy environment for all users, and I very much respect your decisions. I have been on Wikipedia for just over a year, and have certainly made my share of mistakes, as shown on my talk page. I have only really started editing contentious topic articles this September, with all the regulations and protocols that apply to them being newfound to me and frankly somewhat intimidating. It was, wholeheartedly, never my intention to create conflict or undermine the efforts of others, I was simply trying to contribute to the topic based on my understanding at the time.

To that end, I have already taken the initiative to familiarize myself with the relevant policies and guidelines and best practices to avoid similar issues in the future, and, in the event that I do not adhere to the former, will be ready to accept any measure administrators deem necessary. I genuinely value the opportunity to participate, improve, and constructively contribute to the site, therefore, I ask for a last and final chance to demonstrate that I can be a positive member of the community.

@Valereee: As mentioned above, this is all new to me. I had never encountered this page before being pinged, and it all seemed, overwhelming. And as I was, falsely, under the impression that the two reverts I made did not violate any procedures, I did not comment nor make a statement. In hindsight, I realize I should have. Snowstormfigorion (talk) 00:34, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by Vanamonde93

I stand by this sanction. Snowstormfigorion was told "you are inserting false information", and responded to that claim, yet chose to both revert in the content where verifiability was in dispute and subsequently reverted even a failed verification tag. All of this was on a page they'd previously been blocked from for edit-warring, so this was a second offence. Vanamonde93 (talk) 04:33, 5 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by (involved editor 1)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Snowstormfigorion

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by (uninvolved editor 1)

Statement by (uninvolved editor 2)

Result of the appeal by Snowstormfigorion

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Continuing an edit war that is under active discussion at AE while also not engaging in the talk page discussion is disruptive. I would have probably gone with 90 days to start, but 6 months easily falls within discretion. I'm a decline on this. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 02:11, 5 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Barring any objections I will be closing this as declined. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:40, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Snowstormfigorion, you were pinged to ask for a statement, and you didn't show up? Valereee (talk)

Snowstormfigorion, a topic ban from a single CTOP, even one this broad, is still an opportunity to show that you can be a positive contributor. Stay far, far away from Arab/Israel conflict and go edit in other places. I'd recommend -- for anyone -- that you just avoid all CTOPs in general until you understand the policy surrounding them better, as CTOPs are a terrible place to learn on the job.

It's unfortunate that the general area seems to be your primary area of interest, but I see that you've edited in/around regional food and music; many culture articles are not anywhere near the conflict; that's something you could discuss with Vanamonde on your talk page (and nowhere else, and with no one other than an admin). You can also edit on Simple English Wikipedia, which would ensure you didn't inadvertently violate the tban by getting too close to it and would show you can edit near the area without being disruptive.

I'm a decline, but no objection to another appeal after three months of active non-problematic editing. Valereee (talk) 13:52, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Iskandar323

Latest comment: 4 days ago34 comments11 people in discussion

No action, broader case currently before Arbcom. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:01, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Iskandar323

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: BilledMammal (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 04:29, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

User against whom enforcement is requested: Iskandar323 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 4#ARBPIA General Sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Iskandar has engaged in POV pushing, in the process systematically manipulating content to favour specific interpretations of facts or points of view in violation of the UCoC.

Requested Moves

Iskandar takes differing positions on whether to refer to an event as a massacre depending on who the victims are; they consistently support using the word when the victims are Palestinian, and oppose its use when they are Israeli.

The double standard can be seen in their justifications for these moves; at Engineer's Building airstrike they argue that "massacre" should be used as a descriptive title - in other words, using independent reasoning. At Attack on Holit, however, they argue that the title should reflect the sources, and that independent reasoning should not be used to support "massacre".

While individually these !votes can be justified, collectively they demonstrate a systematic effort to manipulate content to advance a specific POV.

Language in articles

Iskandar uses different words to refer to the Palestinian POV than the Israeli POV. This can be demonstrated by reviewing under which circumstances they add or remove the word "claim"; they consistently remove it when used in relation to the Palestinian POV, and frequently add it in relation to the Israeli POV.

The double standard is very evident in some of these edits. For example, at Anti-Palestinianism during the Israel–Hamas war they corrected a MOS:CLAIM issue in relation to a Palestinian POV, explaining statement is already attributed: it doesn't need to be double-couched with a "claimed" - also per MOS:CLAIM.

Three weeks later, at Al-Shifa ambulance airstrike, they took a statement by the IDF which was already attributed with "said" and "double-couched with a 'claimed'"; the only explanation here was ce.

In isolation, some, but not all, of these edits can be justified - but collectively, the pattern demonstrates a systematic effort to manipulate content to advance a specific POV.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

25 September 2021 - Topic banned for one year

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Previously blocked as a discretionary sanction or contentious topic restriction for conduct in the area of conflict, see the block log linked to above.
Previously given a discretionary sanction or contentious topic restriction or warned for conduct in the area of conflict

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

@Ealdgyth: The scope of that case request is limited to activities including an off-wiki component, which is why I didn’t include these originally - and unless ArbCom decides on a different scope, these probably don’t fit in there. BilledMammal (talk) 21:27, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Vanamonde93: The massacre data is before ArbCom; the word use analysis is not. To respond to your request about whether the disparity in language use exists in the sources, it does not. Reviewing some of the examples, I find the following where Iskandar deviates from sources. They include presenting positions aligned with a pro-Palestinian POV as statements when sources present them as claims, and presenting positions aligned with a pro-Israeli POV as claims when sources present them as a statements or even facts:

7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel
Says that it is a "claim" that victims were burned alive with their hands bound. The source presents it as a statement.
Al-Shifa Hospital siege
Says that it is a "claim" that tunnels exist beneath Al-Shifa. The source presents it as a fact.
Martyrdom in Palestinian society
Says An image claimed by the IDF to be a martyr poster found in Jenin. The source is the IDF themselves; attributing in line with MOS:CLAIM would be the appropriate response here.
Use of human shields by Hamas
Says IDF press release materials that it claimed showed rockets hidden under a girl's bed in Gaza. The same issue as the above.
Al-Shifa Hospital siege
Says the IDF "claimed" to have recovered a body. The source presents the recovery as as fact.
Al-Shifa Hospital siege
Changes attribution of position that the IDF targeted ambulances from "claim" to "said". The source attributes it as "claim".
7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel
Says that Israeli first responders "claimed" to have recovered documents regarding Hamas intents. Sources present it either as statement with a high likelihood of being factual, or as a fact.

BilledMammal (talk) 01:09, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Vanamonde93: The issue I'm trying to highlight here is that Iskandar uses "claim" when sources use "said", and "said" when sources use "claim", but only when doing so advances their POV. In my view, this is not an equivalent language disparity in the sources, and thus Iskandar is engaging in POV pushing.

For example, in the first they present the doctors quote as a statement (which is what I meant by "statement"), but Iskandar presents it as a claim. For the second, third, and fourth, if we take MOS:CLAIM as a the baseline, to be deviated from only when justified by sources, then Iskandar should have used "said".

For the fifth, it does present it as "says" in the headline, but WP:HEADLINE applies, and even if it didn't it doesn't justify the use of "claim".

It's not that they're not edits a pro-Israeli editor would make; it's that they're not edits that a neutral editor would make - and if we tolerate such edits, particularly at the scale that editors like Iskandar contributes on, then we allow our articles to be distorted away from neutrality and towards a partisan perspective. BilledMammal (talk) 02:12, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Zero0000: It's about the deportation of Jews from what is now Israel/Palestine. Given that there is considerable debate about who the "real" native people of the region is, I think it is appropriately classified. As for attribution of IDF/Israeli statements - yes, it was appropriate to attribute them. The issue is that Iskandar chose to do so against MOS:CLAIM and use claim - and if such edits are neutral, why are there so few instances of them attributing Hamas/Palestinian statements with "claim"? BilledMammal (talk) 03:11, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Zero0000: We're getting off topic, but whether the Jews voluntarily left or were forced to leave is relevant to perceptions of the Jewish Right of Return, as well as to perceptions of other historical events such as the Nakba, which is why downplaying that deportation is relevant to the topic area. It is also relevant that the sources describe the deportation as a fact, not a claim, meaning that Iskandar has once again misrepresented sources. BilledMammal (talk) 02:26, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Vanamonde93: Given your comment about the CAE report, was what you needed evidence like this?:
1. Robert Jenrick - 19:29, 4 September 2024
  Added that a students visa was revoked after she made a speech defending the Palestinian right to resistance. The source doesn't say "right to resistance", and instead describes her defending the October 7 attacks, saying "We are really, really full of joy of what happened". Also described the revocation as "arbitrary" in Wikivoice, when the source attributes it.

BilledMammal (talk) 02:21, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Vanamonde93: I see that as summarizing the words, because her visa wasn't revoked for speaking at the event - it was revoked for the words she used. Regardless, there are many more examples, but I'm already well over the word limit so I will only present a couple of them:

Falafel - 09:22, 10 August 2024
Adds The adoption of the Palestinian chickpea version of the falafel into Israeli cuisine and its identification as Israeli is contentious, and has led to accusations of cultural appropriation. The source does not support this claim in any way; it doesn't say who created the falafel, and the closest is saying that Israeli food is mostly Mizrahi Jewish, North African, Balkan, Arab, Turkish and Palestinian food.
Anti-Defamation League 15:14, 4 August 2024
Added Domestically and internationally, the ADL engages in advocacy for Israel by working to counter messaging critical of the illegal Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories. The source describes it as an "occupation", not an "illegal occupation".
Israeli Air Force - 13:58, 24 August 2024
Adds In August 2024, a commander of the 200th brigade, which operates the IAF's fleet of drones, told +972 magazine that his unit had killed 6,000 people since the start of the war without distinguishing between armed combatants and unarmed individuals. The source doesn't support the claim "without distinguishing"; the closest it comes is when, the commander explained that for a specific airstrike they distinguished between civilians and militants by assuming that those who didn't flee when the fighting started were militants - problematic in itself, but not what Iskandar claimed.

BilledMammal (talk) 07:11, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

04:31, 6 November 2024

Discussion concerning Iskandar323

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Iskandar323

Statement by xDanielx

@Ealdgyth: could you explain what you mean by isn't actually against policy? BM linked to the relevant UCoC policy. I'm not aware of any cases where this board has sanctioned POV pushing, but I thought it was theoretically possible; Red-tailed hawk also seemed to agree. Are you saying that there isn't enough evidence of a violation?

I'm not commenting on the merits of this particular case, but the general approach of demonstrating a pattern of inconsistencies seems sound. There will never be incontrovertible proof of POV pushing, at least of the more covert type that experienced editors might engage in. Isolated instances of source misrepresentation could also be simple mistakes. I think the question is whether there's sufficient evidence of a pattern. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 16:33, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by Zero0000

BilledMammal put his "massacre" statistics before ArbCom more than two months ago and they are still there. Why is it permitted to introduce them again here?

As to their value, in this RM about a massacre of Israelis Iskandar323 actually proposed two alternative titles which both have "massacre" in them. This isn't in BilledMammal's table, but when I suggested that it would make his table more balanced, BilledMammal refused with an excuse that I consider tendentious. More generally, the table says nothing about what the sources say, and nothing about the occasions when editors declined to intervene in an RM on talk pages they were already active on. BilledMammal in particular has not refuted the claim that changing the titles of several articles on killings of Palestinians was required to correct a glaring NPOV imbalance. Zero^talk 11:58, 7 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

I couldn't help noticing that BilledMammal lists this diff about an Assyrian ruler circa 720 BCE as "Advances the Palestinian POV". This is simply ridiculous. I also notice that about 1/3 of the "claim" examples are addition of attribution to assertions made by the Israeli military or government that had been added as facts in wikivoice. Zero^talk 03:05, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@BilledMammal: Thanks for confirming that it wasn't an accident. I'll leave aside the fact that "claim" is entirely appropriate for the boasts of ancient rulers. The relevant point here is that Iskandar323 did not make the connection you claim, not even the slightest hint of it. The connection is only being made by you, according to your own POV. It doesn't even make sense; if Sargon didn't deport the Jews it means they remained in Samaria, which hardly supports the Palestinian POV. Zero^talk 10:40, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@BilledMammal: "downplaying that deportation is relevant to the topic area"—sorry but there is only so much nonsense that I want to reply to. Zero^talk 03:37, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

To editor ScottishFinnishRadish: Are you going to propose that all ARBPIA reports should go to ArbCom? That's the way it is heading. This is a report about one person and I don't see the slightest reason that AE can't deal with it. Zero^talk 14:30, 11 November 2024 (UTC) To editor ScottishFinnishRadish: No administrator has given an opinion that there is even prima facie evidence of a case to answer. A "nebulous case" isn't a case at all. Vanamonde93 wrote "I looked at your first five links, and they don't hold up to scrutiny". He is right. The closest is that Ealdgyth prefers that BilledMammal add it to an existing case. BilledMammal is on a drive to get his POV-opposites banned and will continue for as long as his nebulous cases are taken seriously. Another point is that Iskandar323 has not edited since several weeks before this case was opened and might not even be aware it exists. Zero^talk 15:09, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by ABHammad

Following this filing I decided to take a look at Iskandar323's recent edits from September (as far back as I had time to check). I clearly see that Iskandar323 is doing edits that can be described as POV pushing.

Iskandar323 has removed content from sources (including notable scholars) they decided on their own that are 'unreliable': [60],[61] while I found the user adding content based on sources listed as unreliable by WP:RSN [62], [63] (By the way the citations added by Iskandar323 for some reason mention only the article title but not their source - quite unusual for such a veteran editor).
Iskandar323 is repeatedly removing content from articles related to controversial issues leaving them more partisan [64], [65],[66].
Iskandar323 added the category "Propaganda in Israel"[67] to the film Bearing Witness (2023 film), about atrocities conducted by Hamas during the October 7 attacks.
I've seen examples of massive removals in Jews or Jewish history related articles, some info was sourced, although it is still very extreme to remove so much content especially when the sentences weren't tagged before. Here's one recent example: [68]. This seems to be a practice continued by Iskandar323 for months if not years, and it is especially odd seeing that we have lots of content on extremely notable non-Jewish history topics (History of the Roman Empire) without sources that nobody ever tries to delete.
I've only looked at recent edits but there is already a pattern of what can be interpreted as tendentious with goals such as changing the name Judea to Palestine: [69] or making a British politician who supports Israel look bad [70], [71]. I have no idea if it's connected but the Pirate Wires said that the Tech For Palestine group was trying to influence British politicians.
Although it may not be connected, Iskandar323 also removed information on human right violations by the Iranian Islamic republic [72].

Most of the edits are not policy violations (though there are cases of gaming of policies used to remove content that doesn't seem to align with the general ideological line promotedf by this editor), but it is consistent with a systematic attempt to strengthen one side. ABHammad (talk) 15:14, 7 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by Vice regent

ScottishFinnishRadish, I think both of those diffs are justified.

In this edit Iskandar attributed claims of a tunnel underneath Al-Shifa to IDF, as opposed to stating it in wikivoice. I think this is justified as multiple sources had already doubted the veracity of Israeli claims in this matter: Guardian, WaPo (quoted in RollingStone), NBC News.
This edit attributes claims to Israel's National Center of Forensic Medicine, instead of stating in wikivoice. This is not that different from attributing deaths in Gaza to the Gaza Ministry of Health, rather than stating it in wikivoice. In fact, the head of that institute was found to have been making false claims[73], so this edit is at least not unreasonable. We probably need a centralized discussion on whether to attribute Israeli forensic claims or state them in wikivoice.

Of course, I agree that instead of using the word "claim" Iskandar should have said "according to" or "stated by" etc.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 19:24, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by Huldra

Just a note on one of the diffs: Al-Shifa Hospital siege: ™Says that it is a "claim" that tunnels exist beneath Al-Shifa. The source presents it as a fact.". The problem is that the Israeli source is highly disputed. There is even a wp-article about it: Alleged military use of al-Shifa hospital. Yes, he should have brought other sources, but the reality is that it is a much-disputed claim, Huldra (talk) 23:47, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by Wafflefrites

I don’t think these mos:claim issues are too big a deal. They can easily be fixed by another editor. Iskandar323 does have a tendency to mass remove content, but usually provides a legitimate reason (for example, removing unsourced content). I can’t comment on whether his removal of info based on source unreliability requires additional scrutiny because I am unfamiliar with the sources.

Some of his edits, like mass removals (or replacing a long-standing user generated map, or changing the Star of David black) can be jarring but I think most of the time they are based on legitimate wiki policies. Except changing the Star of David Black. I (and I think other editors) probably assumed he was under a lot of stress and maybe looking at too many graphic images, videos, and news about the war.

Recently, Iskandar323 was heavily involved in a discussion that downgraded the Anti-Defamation League’s reliability ranking on Wikipedia. I do not agree with the extent of the downgrade, especially when there are real cases of current antisemitism . However, he did have a point that the ADL needs improvement. It needs improvement in its methodology and presentation of numbers and in explaining/giving examples of how anti-Zionism can lead to antisemitism, rather than just equating the two and changing definitions. I did see his username being written about in some articles outside of Wikipedia about this ADL thing. Ultimately I think downgrading ADL to the extent that it was downgraded was the wrong move (should have been downgraded to additional considerations in that category), and there is public backlash. So in conclusion, I think Iskandar323 is an editor who mostly is following Wikipedia policies but sometimes his very bold POV can draw anger and may result in situations and outcomes (like the ADL outcome and backlash) that really should have been more moderate.

I also appreciate BilledMammal bringing up his concerns here. Sometimes I don’t think editors take Talk page discussions seriously. And if there is a real issue with editing, editors should try to determine if it is a real issue that is in line with policies. BilledMammal could be wrong or he could be right at times. Wafflefrites (talk) 15:03, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Iskandar323

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

As per the request against Nableezy, looking at the presented diffs, I don't see how this is something that can be dealt with at AE. Trying to get sanctions for an editor for something that isn't actually against policy is (at best) something that needs ArbCom. Having an opinion and editing with that opinion isn't something we necessarily sanction - only when that opinion leads to misrepresentation and other misbehavior does AE become involved. MOS enforcement is not something that AE is set up for (which is, in the end, what this boils down to - MOS:CLAIM is a manual of style guideline). Again, much like Nableezy, we don't sanction editors for having and editing in correlation with their own opinions on subjects - unless they start misrepresenting sources or engage in other proscribed behavior - and I'm not seeing that any of the presented information meets that standard. Ealdgyth (talk) 15:57, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
- Per the UCoC enforcement guidelines - 3.1.2 "UCoC violations that happen on a single wiki: Handled by existing enforcement structures according to their existing guidelines, where they do not conflict with these guidelines" - AE is not equipped to handle this sort of complex investigation - make the case at ArbCom. Given that AE is generally limited to 500 words and 20 diffs (even if there is the ability to go beyond if needed), I cannot see how even with quadrupled word and diff allowances AE could possibly begin to investigate such a nebulous thing as is alleged here. Ealdgyth (talk) 17:52, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
  The real question is: do we open a new ARCA filing for each of these reports, roll all three into one, or dump it all in the 2.3 tomats and almost three month old discussion that's still sitting there? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:58, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
  Personally, can I choose option Z - return to my blanket fort and ignore the world? Barring that option, I would prefer that BM piled these into his case request he just filed (considering that one of the three editors that BM filed an AE request on is also listed in the ArbCom request... I think that's probably the best idea). Ealdgyth (talk) 18:22, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
  I'm not necessarily saying "we admins refer this to ArbCom", I'm saying that I do not see anything here that AE can deal with, without going greatly over the word and diff counts and getting deeper into the situation than AE is designed to do. If the filing party here decides that they want to take their much-too-long evidence to ArbCom, that's on them. I didn't see enough in the diffs to say "this is bad editing and we need to sanction it at AE". It very well may be possible to prove the case with greater evidence limits, but we function here at AE with somewhat limited evidence limits. I do not see that we can say that not adhering to MOS:CLAIM occasionally is a sanctionable offense. Ealdgyth (talk) 14:49, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
As I've stated elsewhere, I'm unwilling to use language comparisons in isolation; I would consider such disparity in language use an NPOV violation iff there is not an equivalent disparity in the sources. As to the rest, I'm also not willing to consider evidence that is simultaneously before ARBCOM. BilledMammal, can you please clarify which pieces of this filing do not concern evidence you have already presented there? Vanamonde93 (talk) 00:44, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
BM, I looked at your first five links, and they don't hold up to scrutiny. The first is a quote from a doctor, not the source stating something in its own voice. Iskandar's stated reasons for the second are that it was a liveblog source, not that the source wasn't reporting something in its own voice. I don't see the difference between what Iskandar did and what you are saying should be done in the third instance, or the fourth. And in the fifth, the source goes back and forth between attributing the claim and not; Iskandar isn't creating a claim out of thin air. These may be examples of editing with a POV, in the sense that a person with a pro-Israeli POV is unlikely to make them; but per Ealdgyth, that isn't forbidden. What's forbidden is violating NPOV with specific edits, and I will need to see stronger evidence of that to suggest taking action. Vanamonde93 (talk) 01:18, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

BM: Yes, that's the sort of thing I take seriously, but on the face of it the summary appears to be of "speaking at a university demonstration on Gaza’s historical resistance to Israel’s “oppressive regime”" and not of her actual words; if they were a summary of her actual words, I would agree that that is very concerning. Vanamonde93 (talk) 06:21, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Are we fine just closing this as also referred to Arbcom? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:09, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Zero0000, this is another report with ~40 diffs and links to 15 full discussions, with feedback from admins like I'm unwilling to use language comparisons in isolation then saying it needs a source analysis, and another admin saying I cannot see how even with quadrupled word and diff allowances AE could possibly begin to investigate such a nebulous thing as is alleged here. Neither of those admins is me. So yes, I will continue to support referring AE requests that clearly exceed the capacity of AE to Arbcom, especially as there is likely a case in the pipeline. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:39, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
I'm not sure we should refer this one to ArbCom - is any uninvolved admin convinced there is a reasonable chance of wrong doing in the evidence? If so and it's beyond our ability at AE to prove it, great let's refer. If not, I don't htink we should refer. If ArbCom opens a case BM could then represent this (presuming it's with-in the scope and they have the word/diff limits to do so). Speaking only for myself and not for anyone else, I am also not a fan of people asking us to enforce the UCoC. According to the policy, This Universal Code of Conduct (UCoC) defines a minimum set of guidelines of expected and unacceptable behaviour. It is my contention, as well as established ArbCom principle, that our policies and guidelines at least meet this minimum and in most cases and definitely around content misbehavior that turns into conduct misbehavior, such as POV pushing, goes beyond that minimum. As such I think enwiki editors should be using enwiki policy when asking for enforcement. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:04, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
I guess what I was getting at was close this as in Arbcom's hands. Half of the evidence is before them already, and this looks to be going to a case. This edit definitely does add claim language that is not found in the source. This edit adds claim language that is not found in the source. Is that enough to show a pattern? There are ~40 more diffs to check to analyze and weigh to come to that decision. There's already a case, so whether it is referred to arbcom, closed as already before arbcom, or closed as moot due to an upcoming case that is better equipped to analyze this, I think the end result is effectively the same. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:08, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
I am fine closing this as "In Arbcom's hands". Barkeep49 (talk) 17:10, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Ealdgyth, Vanamonde93, any objections to that closure? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:51, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
I guess I don't see a material difference between that and "no action", since we cannot in any way prevent a user from going to ARBCOM, and much of the evidence is there already. SFR, I don't think those instances are in any way clear-cut enough to merit sanction. This isn't uniformly the case across BM's reports; I was going to propose sanctions on CarmenEsparzaAmoux below before that was rendered moot. I certainly don't believe we should be telling ARBCOM to deal with this specific report. But I don't care especially about the wording used to close it. Vanamonde93 (talk) 01:57, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

CarmenEsparzaAmoux

Latest comment: 9 days ago6 comments5 people in discussion

Closed as moot Valereee (talk) 17:16, 7 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning CarmenEsparzaAmoux

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: BilledMammal (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 04:29, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

User against whom enforcement is requested: CarmenEsparzaAmoux (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 4#ARBPIA General Sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

CarmenEsparzaAmoux has engaged in POV pushing, in the process systematically manipulating content to favour specific interpretations of facts or points of view in violation of the UCoC.

Source misrepresentation

CarmenEsparzaAmoux has repeatedly misrepresented sources, in a way that advances a Palestinian POV. This includes making claims not supported by the source, making claims in Wikivoice that the source attributes, and including only the Palestinian POV even when the source they use prominently includes the Israeli POV.

The following is a small sample of these edits; if helpful I can provide many more, although please be aware I only reviewed a small sample of their edits and there will be many I overlooked:

05:16, 6 October 2024
Source says that Israel will place "Hamas militants who remain in the area under siege"; CEA misrepresents this as place anyone remaining there ... under a complete siege.
02:01, 23 September 2024
CAE says Netenyahu considering ordering siege tactics against Gaza City. Source says "examining a plan to use siege tactics against Hamas in northern Gaza". Also a BLP violation.
05:01, 17 September 2024
CAE says that an Israeli sniper killed a UN employee in the West Bank. They neglect to mention the Israeli position, covered prominently in the source, which is that the man had been throwing explosive devices at Israeli soldiers.
05:13, 13 September 2024
CAE says Israel killed at least four Anera aid workers. The source doesn't say that they were part of Anera, or that they were aid workers. All it says that they were in an Anera vehicle, and that according to Anera the men "had not been vetted in advance", and their presence "was not co-ordinated with the IDF", but that they "had stepped in to take over the lead vehicle". Further, CAE neglects to mention the Israeli position, that the men were armed assailents who seized control of the vehicle.
05:26, 12 September 2024
CAE says that Israel has killed 207 UNRWA staff; the source doesn't say who is responsible, with the closest it comes being "mainly due to Israeli air attacks". While it may seem reasonable to assume that Israel killed all of them, we are not permitted to go beyond sources in this manner, and it neglects the fact that there have been incidents of friendly fire.
21:29, 17 August 2024
CAE puts the death toll of an airstrike in Wikivoice. The source attributes it.
00:52, 18 August 2024
CAE says that Israel ordered the evacuations of districts in Beit Hanoun and Beit Lahiya. Omits the fact, prominently presented in the source, that this was ordered due to rocket fire from those districts.
00:59, 15 June 2024
CAE said that journalists were arrested due to being attacked by far-right Israelis. The source says that a single photographer was attacked by far-right Israelis, who was later arrested. The photographer claims that a right-wing operative contacted the police and claimed he was a Hamas operative; the Israeli police claimed he had recently been banned from the Temple Mount. Either way, the source does not at any point suggest his arrest was related to him being attacked, and the final paragraph includes an explicit statement from the Israeli police denying that claim.
20:03, 11 June 2024
The source says that both the IDF, Hamas, and the PIJ were added to a "list of offenders who fail to protect children". On an article about Children in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict CAE only added that the IDF were.
23:34, 10 June 2024
CAE said, in Wikivoice, that 33 members of Palestine Red Crescent Society had been killed since the war begun. The source attributed this claim.

This issue has been raised with them previously, but it was not rectified.

Language in articles

CarmenEsparzaAmoux uses different words to refer to the Palestinian POV than the Israeli POV. This can be demonstrated by reviewing under which circumstances they add or remove the word "claim"; they consistently remove it when used in relation to the Palestinian POV, and frequently add it in relation to the Israeli POV.

This double standard can be seen in edits like this one, where in regards to competing positions they say that Hamas "states" while Israel "claims". It can also be seen in the differing ways they treat sources based on whether the content aligns with their POV; in this edit, they change the appropriately-attributed "New York Times reported" to the "New York Times claimed", while in this edit Al Jazeera "states" while Israel "claims".

In isolation, some, but not all, of these edits can be justified - but collectively, the pattern demonstrates a systematic effort to manipulate content to advance a specific POV.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

None

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 15 October 2023 (see the system log linked to above).

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

@Liz: The only connection between the two reports is the editor - the evidence presented and the activities I'm asking to be reviewed are unrelated. BilledMammal (talk) 11:42, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

04:30, 6 November 2024

Discussion concerning CarmenEsparzaAmoux

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by CarmenEsparzaAmoux

I am not here to "advance a specific POV." I am here to help build an encyclopedia. I do add statements by the Israeli government regarding their explanations for specific actions [74], [75]. In the last year, I have worked with a high volume of information and editing in this topic area, and I am sure I have made mistakes. BM has raised these concerns in the past, and I have tried my absolute best to improve my editing. I know I'm not perfect, but I'm not here to "systematically manipulate" anything. I take full responsibility for any edits that do not perfectly match the source or improperly use the word claim, but I categorically reject the notion that I'm here to push a POV or "manipulate" content. CarmenEsparzaAmoux (talk) 21:52, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by FortunateSons

Please note that the reported party has been blocked following a CU. I believe that this report can now be closed. FortunateSons (talk) 17:11, 7 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by (username)

Result concerning CarmenEsparzaAmoux

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Just noting that their is a current arbitration case request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Covert canvassing and proxying in the Israel-Arab conflict topic area involving these same two editors. I know Arbitration and AE are two separate forums but I want to make sure there isn't "double jeopardy" or the same claims being made in two different noticeboards. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 08:29, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Nableezy

Latest comment: 9 days ago38 comments13 people in discussion

Rough consensus among uninvolved administrators that the Arbitraiton Comittee is better able to determine what, if anything, the problems are and any appropriate sanction. Will be referring it to them at WP:ARCA. Barkeep49 (talk) 19:01, 7 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Nableezy

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: BilledMammal (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 04:29, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

User against whom enforcement is requested: Nableezy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 4#ARBPIA General Sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Nableezy has engaged in POV pushing, in the process systematically manipulating content to favour specific interpretations of facts or points of view in violation of the UCoC.

Requested Moves

Nableezy takes differing positions on whether to refer to an event as a massacre depending on who the victims are; they consistently support using the word when the victims are Palestinian, and oppose its use when they are Israeli.

They support this by applying double standards. For example, at Attack on Holit, they argue that massacre shouldn't be used because "attack" is more common in reliable sources. At Engineer's Building airstrike they argue that we shouldn't follow WP:COMMONNAME but should use a descriptive title, with them arguing that "massacre" is that descriptive title.

While individually these !votes can be justified, collectively they demonstrate a systematic effort to manipulate content to advance a specific POV.

Language in articles

Nableezy uses different words to refer to the Palestinian POV than the Israeli POV. This can be demonstrated by reviewing under which circumstances they add or remove the word "claim"; they consistently remove it when used in relation to the Palestinian POV, and frequently add it in relation to the Israeli POV.

While less blatant than the behavior of CAE or Iskandar, this manipulation is still clear. For example, at List of Palestinian civilian casualties in the Second Intifada, they changed B'tselem claims that 2,038 were civilians to According to the Israeli human rights organization B'tselem, 2,038 were civilians, correctly citing MOS:CLAIM.

Three weeks later, at Al-Shifa Hospital they Attribute to israel by adding "claim", and at Gaza Strip they add Israel has claimed that the blockade is necessary to protect itself from Palestinian political violence.

One week later, at Ahed Tamimi, they are back to correcting MOS:CLAIM violations by changing Her lawyer claimed that she was beaten during her arrest to her lawyer said she was beaten during her arrest.

In isolation, some, but not all, of these edits can be justified - but collectively, the pattern demonstrates a systematic effort to manipulate content to advance a specific POV.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

26 December 2023 - Topic banned for 30 days for battleground editing
12 October 2021 - Cautioned to moderate their tone
19 March 2021 - Warned to moderate their tone

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Previously blocked as a discretionary sanction or contentious topic restriction for conduct in the area of conflict, see the block log linked to above.
Previously given a discretionary sanction or contentious topic restriction or warned for conduct in the area of conflict

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

That source was published on November 14; ten days before your edit, and three days before the tunnel was discovered. The source used for the statement was published two days before your edit, and says in its own voice that the tunnels exist and that they have visited them.

However, the issue isn't the specific edits - the issue is the pattern, which demonstrates you apply different standards to claims aligned with the Israeli POV than you do claims aligned with the Palestinian. BilledMammal (talk) 05:08, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Vanamonde93: For the most part, an experienced editor intending to POV push won't behave in that way; they'll be more subtle. The exception is "generally distorting our content relative to the body of published literature on a subject", but unfortunately that is almost impossible to prove as it becomes a content dispute.

Instead, what I am trying to demonstrate here is selective application of policies. Nableezy does that when they argue we should use "massacre" as a descriptive title when the victims are Palestinians, but that we should match the language used in sources when the victims are Israeli. Similarly, they do that when they strictly apply MOS:CLAIM to the Palestinian POV, but frequently diverge from it - even when the relevant sources makes the statement in their own voice - when it comes to the Israeli POV. BilledMammal (talk) 05:54, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Vanamonde93 and Seraphimblade: Looking at the specific edits of the claim review, I believe there is evidence of the sort you ask for. In addition to the previously discussed Al-Shifa Hospital example, where they use "claim" to attribute a statement to Israel when the source put the statement in their own voice, we have:

Israel–Hamas war - 2023-12-12T15:11:57Z
Nableezy adds "Hamas has repeatedly denied the claims of sexual abuse". The source says "Hamas has repeatedly denied allegations that its fighters committed sexual violence during the attack — despite the evidence."

In this edit, they represent the allegations as a "claim", despite the source being very clear that it is skeptical of Hamas' claim, not Israel's.
Israel–Hamas war - 2023-12-10T17:34:12Z
Nableezy adds The New York Times reported that the claim of Hamas fighters surrendering was made after video and photographs of "men stripped to their underwear, sitting or kneeling on the ground, with some bound and blindfolded" were seen on social media.

The source says The Israeli military said on Thursday that it had apprehended hundreds of people suspected of terrorism, adding The New York Times has not verified the images or the video.

In this edit, Nableezy presents the Israeli position with less credulity than the source, and at the same time presents the videos with more credulity.
Gaza Strip - 2023-11-28T19:36:21Z
Nableezy adds "Israel has claimed that the blockade is necessary to protect itself...", while the source says "The government said the purpose of the new regulations..."

Again, they present the Israeli position with less credulity than the source.

(Note that I could continue - including with edits outside the narrow scope of MOS:CLAIM, but I'm already approaching the word limit and so would need a word extension)

In contrast, when Palestinian claims are discussed, they consistently reflect the language of the sources. I believe this demonstrates them misrepresenting sources, and distorting content to advance a particular POV - is this the sort of evidence you require? BilledMammal (talk) 12:09, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Nableezy: The issue there is that your wording doesn’t reflect the incredulity that the source treats Hamas’ claims with. However, if you wish, we can focus on the other examples - "said" is not a synonym for "claim". BilledMammal (talk) 12:36, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Ealdgyth: It is possible to argue that they are reasonable paraphrases - which is why I structured the evidence this way, because if they are a reasonable paraphrases and Nableezy is not POV-pushing, why do they never paraphrase Palestinian claims in that way?

There is an particularly insidious type of POV pushing, where individual edits can be justified (although the Al-Shifa hospital edit cannot, as you can't take a statement the source presents as fact and instead present it as a third parties claim), but when we look at the broader picture we see that an editor is consistently trying to push a particular POV by applying different standards and sourcing expectations. This is far harder to address than more blatant forms, and as a consequence far more damaging to the encyclopedia in the long run.

However, I understand that it can be difficult to act on this sort of evidence, so instead it it possible to get a word extension, so that I can present evidence across a wider scope that can better meet what Vanamonde93 is asking for? BilledMammal (talk) 13:56, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

04:30, 6 November 2024

Discussion concerning Nableezy

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Nableezy

I can’t seriously believe I’m going to explain edits from 2023, but MOS:CLAIM isn’t a prohibition on using the word. Sources, such as the Associated Press, said of the Israeli claims that Shifa is Gaza’s largest and best-equipped hospital. Israel, without providing visual evidence, claims the facility also is used by Hamas for military purposes. Changing a sentence of Wikipedia using its own voice to present an unsupported claim by a combatant that sources have repeatedly said was lacking any evidence as fact and correctly saying that it was an Israeli claim is showing caution to only use the word where appropriate. The idea that Btselem was claiming something that no source has questioned is the equivalent of that is what is actually POV pushing. Given the low quality of the evidence here, if there is some specific diff that admins think I need to answer for, even if it’s from a year ago, let me know. But I’d advice them not to simply accept BilledMammals *claims* as they likewise fail even the slightest scrutiny. As far as move requests, I saw lots of requests for massacres in Israel that I saw no need to oppose calling massacre. I got involved in the ones I thought were an issue. But again, if there is something in this mishmash of diffs going back a year I should pay attention to please let me know. nableezy - 04:47, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Except for the fact that Btselem is Israeli lol. I don’t apply different standards based on whose claim it is, I apply different standards based on how credible the claim is according to reliable sources. I don’t intend to get into a back and forth with BM here, I think his evidence is tendentious and dishonestly presented (for example my support of massacre for the attack on the engineers building was based on the same argument being used for an attack on Israeli civilians being moved to massacre, but that’s glossed over as supports for Palestinians and opposes for Israelis, and my not participating in ones about Israeli victims that I did not object to is also treated as though it consistently opposes for Israeli victims). So, to cut off any extended dialogue here, if an admin thinks there is anything in here I should respond to please let me know. nableezy - 05:15, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

BilledMammal, changing your comment after it’s been replied to is generally considered a no-no. nableezy - 05:51, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Synonyms for claim: allegation. If BilledMammals position is I used the wrong synonym for what a source called allegations I don’t know how this is not a tendentious report. nableezy - 12:28, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

No it is not a synonym, your example is just dishonestly presented. I reverted to a prior version there (search for "Israel has claimed" here) and made some additional edits. That I did not correct every issue in that prior version while reverting due to other issues may be a minor issue, but your claim that this is something I initially inserted is just made up. As Zero says below, the edit in Israel-Hamas war, several organizations immediately cast doubt on the claim by Israel, saying that what Israel said were "terrorists" were in fact civilians. Claim was appropriate there. Im not sure AE is the place to litigate content disputes from a year ago, but most of this evidence is distorted in similar ways as the first example here. (Oh, you still havent reverted your material modification of a comment already replied to). nableezy - 12:58, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

As far as the lol, at the time BilledMammal said I use different language for Israeli claims than Palestinian ones, and he presented me removing claim from an Israeli organization as proof of that. That literally made me laugh. I am not really sure how you all think an lol is rude but sure I won’t laugh again on Wikipedia. nableezy - 14:03, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

But you can address it here, because these claims are either non issues or dishonestly presented. Even ignoring they are a year old. nableezy - 14:05, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Yes SFR, after other discussions were closed on the basis of massacre being an appropriate description without looking at the usage in sources for killings of Israelis I argued the same standard should be followed for the killings of Palestinians. You seem to think that arguing that we should be following a consistent standard, after other articles have set that standard, is inconsistent. For the Flour massacre article, when reliable sources flat out say something is a common name then that is the evidence needed for it to be a common name. The substantive part of my argument about the Engineer's building move was as you quoted, The idea that only when Israeli civilians are indiscriminately targeted and killed is what is a massacre is what is "far too POV". When we have articles that base their name being massacre on the number of Israeli civilians indiscriminately killed and I argue that if this is the case then it should also be the case for the killing of Palestinian civilians indiscriminately that is not taking an inconsistent position. An if then statement is one in which the the then depends on the if. I am not opposed to following any consistent standard for these articles, what I object to is the set up in which Israeli civilians are "massacred" and Palestinian civilians "die in an airstrike" independent of the sourcing. Yes, I referenced an RM that ignored the sources entirely to move an article to a title that contained massacre based on the number of (Israeli) civilians killed that when an exponentially higher number of (Palestinian) civilians are killed the same logic should hold. That isnt inconsistency, that is asking for systemic bias to be addressed. nableezy - 16:40, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

And oh by the way, this move request has me suggesting a move target that did not contain massacre and was accepted by all. This is my criticizing the systemic bias in language Wikipedia uses in this conflict, Israelis are "murdered" or "massacred", but Palestinians are "killed" or "die in an incident" This is my asking for a consistent standard for all these articles. This is my saying that for this article reliable sources have already said that it is a common name. This is my saying that if we are following the standard of the Engineer's building airstrike then that same standard should be applied there. This is my saying I do not mind the change from massacre for the killings of Palestinians and what I objected to was not including the target of the attack, but that is dishonestly portrayed as my supporting massacre there. Over and over again the evidence you uncritically cite is bogus and falls under the weight of even the tiniest amount of scrutiny. My asking that the same arguments be applied evenly is not "inconsistent positions", and it is absurd to claim that my asking that the same standards be followed is POV-pushing. nableezy - 16:51, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

No SFR, my argument is that personal opinions on what makes massacre an appropriate title was already being used for the killings of Israeli civilians. And if that is the case the same should apply to the killings of Palestinian civilians. And no, my objection at Al-Awda school attack was specific about it being an attack on a school, I made no comment on massacre at all in my vote there. I disagreed with the proposed title, so that means I must support it being at massacre? That is a simple logic fail, made obvious by my agreeing that a move from massacre was fine with me. BilledMammal suggested a name that concealed that a school was targeted and that was what I opposed, full stop. But Im not sure if you are playing the role of prosecutor or judge here, and as has often been the case in discussions between you and me this feels more like you throwing whatever you think will stick against a wall against me as has happened in the past. I dont find your characterization of my arguments to be in any way reflective of what they actually were, my position is there should be a single standard applied for both sets. Not the one that exists in which Israelis are murdered or massacred and Palestinians passively die in a strike on some random street. nableezy - 18:59, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Actually SFR from what I can tell all the admins have said this evidence is unconvincing and until you suggested punting to AC nobody had said any of the diffs brought were actionable. BM is totally capable of taking whatever he wants to the committee, but this complaint seemed to be being dealt with fine until you suggested taking it there. nableezy - 13:40, 7 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

ABHammad's distortion of what happened at Samir Kuntar should honestly result in a boomerang. Taking a decision made by the US and Canada *after* I said that it was a registered charity in Canada to attempt to claim I was wrong when what I said when I said it was completely accurate is intentionally misleading. As far as EI, that is a. a BLPCRIME issue, and b. an OR issue. It is also something I raised on the talk page, a discussion that the two editors who put in this material have completely ignored, and that includes ABHammad. As far as JNS, I saw a completely unexplained deletion and reverted it. Seriously, can you all deal with the editors who so readily make things up on this board? Please? nableezy - 15:18, 7 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by Zero0000

This has to be one of the weakest reports here for quite a while.

In the third example of BM's "claim" list, Nableezy added a sentence "Hamas has repeatedly denied the claims of sexual abuse." which BM classified as "Added 'claim' to content related to an Israeli POV (Advances the Palestinian POV)". Note that Nableezy added the sentence immediately after a sentence noting allegations of sexual abuse by Hamas, with no mention that the allegations were denied. Turning to Nableezy's CNN source we read "Hamas has repeatedly denied allegations that its fighters committed sexual violence". So Nableezy's hanging offence was to balance the POV with a close paraphrase of how the source balanced it.

In the next example, which includes "claim of Hamas fighters surrendering..." using "claim" rather than stating the surrendering as fact is in conformity with the NYT source, which explicitly says that it could not verify the account. Note also that Nableezy gave two additional sources that directly challenge the truth of the account. So this is a perfectly good (and, more importantly, accurate) use of "claim". Zero^talk 11:55, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

That's as far as I plan to look, but I propose that these are representative examples of this "evidence".

There's no secret that every regular editor in the ARBPIA area has a POV. Nableezy and BilledMammal have one, and so do I. A report here should provide some evidence of wrongdoing, not just evidence of a preference for editing certain content. Zero^talk 11:55, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

"Alleging" someone did wrong and "claiming" someone did wrong have exactly the same meaning. Moreover, editors have every right to extract the factual content of sources without bringing the opinion content along with it. Even more so when our article already states the opinion in the previous sentence. Zero^talk 13:45, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

To editor ScottishFinnishRadish: "AE is too small scale to address the depth of allegations of this sort." — What depth are you talking about? This report is just one editor with a strong POV complaining that another editor doesn't share that POV. And BilledMammal's misleading RM statistics are at ARCA already, so why are they here again? Every single regular editor in every single contentious area will be in trouble if you pick their edits apart under a microscope. Zero^talk 11:20, 7 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by NadVolum

My reading of WP:CLAIM is that it should not be used if it is undue. I take that as meaning it should not be used unless there is good reaon for considering what was said was false. On that basis I believe it is quite correct to use the word in statements like 'Al-Jazeera reported that the claims of babies being beheaded and were killed en masse were false' and to remove it from statements like 'B'tselem claims that 2,038 were civilians' when changing to 'According to the Israeli human rights organization B'tselem, 2,038 were civilians'. I see very little to dispute in the changes. I can see a person with an 'Israeli POV' might wish things were different but that doesn't mean they break NPOV. NadVolum (talk) 15:38, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by Chess

You seem to think that arguing that we should be following a consistent standard, after other articles have set that standard, is inconsistent. is the correct view. It's sometimes difficult to distinguish that from POV-pushing, but it's made easier by reading the explanations.

In Nableezy's case, BilledMammal's table shows consistent opposition to the term "massacre", then a flip to saying that the term "massacre" is fine after a series of losses. [76] From that point onwards, Nableezy only argues in favour of the term "massacre", until a loss at the Engineer's building RM forced Nableezy to re-evaluate their views. Nableezy uses the term "massacre" consistent with prior consensus but will only actively use that reasoning to benefit Palestinians.

It's unrealistic to expect otherwise because we are volunteers, and we devote our limited time to what we are passionate about. This can create a double standard when something conflicts with unwritten consensus and the closer doesn't recognize that. Oftentimes this happens when actual POV-pushers flood specific articles.

I would call the current system a failure of our existing guidelines. Nableezy, unlike the majority of people in this topic area, actually respects consensus and tries to create objective standards. A better way to utilize Nableezy's experience and credibility would be to collaborate on writing up an Israel-Palestine specific MOS for terms like "massacre" or "claim", and a central discussion board for the conflict. BilledMammal's skill at identifying examples of systemic bias could be more effectively used there.

Because global consensus trumps local consensus, we could ban "massacre" across all articles in the recent war. Then, when an influence campaign tries to POV-push, we can ignore that campaign citing WP:NOTAVOTE. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 23:17, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by ABHammad

I've also noticed the same conduct from Nableezy. Sharing here an example I also provided on another Wiki page: When I pointed out that Samidoun is an unreliable source (after another editor used it on the article for Samir Kuntar), writing him that they are a terror organization according to multiple countries, Nableezy responded with, Oh ffs, that a government says some group is a terrorist organization has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not it is a reliable source for some statement. The IDF is a proscribed terrorist organization in Iran, should we not cite it for anything? [77]. Nableezy also says that It’s just Israel that claims some connection to the PFLP[78] and calls them "a registered charity in Canada", [79] but both Canada and the US call them a terrorist entity, with the US Department of Treaury saying Samidoun is "a sham charity that serves as an international fundraiser for the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP)."[80]

On two very odd consecutive edits, Nableezy also removed information on a British counter-terrorism investigation into Asa Winstanley, who is an associate editor of Electronic Intifada and removed that its Executive Director Ali Abunimah said Nasrallah gave his life to liberate Palestine [81]. saying it is undue, but this standard of thinking was not applied by them on Jewish News Syndicate, where Nableezy restored the assertion of the newspaper promoting Islamophobic and anti-Palestinian ideas in Wikipedia voice [82] even though it is not sourced. ABHammad (talk) 15:13, 7 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by Selfstudier

@Valereee: Although I have said previously that content issues cannot entirely be ignored, I agree about the pile of complicated diffs issue. How about making better use of the Wikipedia:Template_index/User talk namespace#Multi-level templates, maybe make a new one for CPUSH, such that in order to bring a case to AE, several such warnings need to have been given (responses mandatory), with diffs (say two or three at a time). Then most of the work will have been done by the time it would get here.Selfstudier (talk) 16:01, 7 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Nableezy

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I have yet to go through the evidence in detail, but I want to note that we achieve NPOV by strictly summarizing what reliable sources say, not by balancing both "sides" of a conflict. As such comparing !votes in different RMs is usually an apples to oranges comparison. What I would find persuasive evidence of POV-pushing includes source misrepresentation; supporting or opposing the use of a given source based on its POV in a particular instance; cherry-picking material from a source; elevating poor sources over ones Wikipedia considers more reliable; and generally distorting our content relative to the body of published literature on a subject. Vanamonde93 (talk) 05:35, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Not too impressed with the "lol" style rudeness—Nableezy, you might want to give that a rest, whether here or elsewhere. Other than that, I largely agree with Vanamonde; I'd need to see more than somewhat inconsistent positions to support an accusation of sanctionable POV pushing. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 07:59, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
I agree with Seraph that the rudeness is offputting, Nableezy, but otherwise, I don't see that we can actually act on this. The second and third diffs are mostly reasonable paraphrases, if perhaps a bit less than what might be the "perfect" paraphrase - but that isn't ever really possible. The first is slightly more "worrisome" because it could be argued that the CNN source seems to come down on the side of saying that there is evidence of sexual abuse, but the source does not come out and baldly state that sexual abuse happened (they dance around it without outright coming out and saying it did happen) so the most that could be said is that perhaps a better paraphrase would have been "Hamas has repeatedly denied the claims of sexual abuse despite mounting evidence" or "Hamas has repeatedly denied the claims of sexual abuse despite mounting news reports that lend credence to the reports of abuse" or similar. But merely leaving out something is not distorting the source - it's just not providing all details. Given that the preceeding sentence at the time of the addition by Nableezy said "Israeli women and girls were reportedly raped, assaulted, and mutilated by Hamas militants." I'm not seeing how we can conclude that Nableezy was trying to remove the fact that such reports were made. BilledMammal - these types of reports, which try to get someone sanctioned for something that isn't actually against policy, are not helpful. They just add to the bad blood in the topic area. Ealdgyth (talk) 13:41, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
We should just refer this to Arbcom, as we did two and a half months ago. This type of case should be looked at by a committee, with many parties providing evidence and analysis. There's already the ARCA and the case request, do we really need more hands in this? AE is too small scale to address the depth of allegations of this sort. Also, Not too impressed with the "lol" style rudeness... I agree with Seraph that the rudeness is offputting while there's a section above with a rough consensus for another warning, and the history of warnings and sanctions. This will probably be the time they change their behavior, though. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:54, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
- Yeah, well, I've learned my lesson that no other admins feel that Nableezy's brusqueness rises to a level beyond a warning so I'm not sticking my neck out again on that particular situation. I've said my piece on where I think warnings should stop and sanctions should begin, but I appear to be out of step with the other admins that comment often here, so I didn't even bother. Ealdgyth (talk) 13:58, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
As for the evidence, looking at User:BilledMammal/ARBPIA RM statistics provides, in my view, more than somewhat incosistent positions. I see, for instance it isnt even close on common name, attack is exponentially more commonly used than massacre, Only highly partisan or non-reliable sources use "massacre" as a title, which would only be allowed as POVTITLE if it were the WP:COMMONNAME, and several sources flat out say this is known as the Flour Massacre, it is the common name on one hand and per Talk:Netiv_HaAsara_massacre#Requested_move_10_October_2023 where editors successfully argued that the killing of a much smaller number of civilians meant that the article should be titled "massacre". Netiv HaAsara massacre had 22 people killed, here we have over five times the number of civilians killed. The idea that only when Israeli civilians are indiscriminately targeted and killed is what is a massacre is what is "far too POV". and Wikipedia:Move_review/Log/2024 June (the Engineer's Building airstrike section) on the other when arguing against COMMONNAME arguments.

The thing is, as my colleagues have said, it takes a lot to prove this type of NPOV editing, and this is all way beyond the limits of what we should be looking at here. There are 24 discussions linked to at the RM stats evidence page, and the claim evidence against Nableezy is another couple dozen diffs and a thousand words. That is way over the AE limit, and we're talking about needing to see more. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:26, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Nableezy, WP:POINT applies if you're using criteria you disagree with to ask[ing] for systemic bias to be addressed, especially if you're challenging one move because another move was closed in a way you disagreed with. This is changing your normal argument in these discussions away from criteria in order to address a perceived POV issue. Unfortunately WP:OTHERSTUFF exists and closures that we disagree with are made. I agree that arguments not based in policy shouldn't be weighed in consensus discussions, and I've had many appeals of my closures because of down-weighting or disregarding non-policy compliant arguments, but saying "the other side did it there" is just making a point.

At Al Bureij killings you did suggest a move to killings after another editor did, and you also responded to a concern about the NPOV of the original title of massacre with And how would you describe the killing of ten civilians including three children?. At Flour massacre you supported per another editor who said With IDF statements acknowledging shooting at least 10 people on the scene, and multiple reports of dozens of gunshot wounds (with no other shooters alleged), I think we're in massacre territory even if the others killed turned out to have died in panic, from fearful truck drivers etc. Calling for parity in titles again is fine, but your argument was based on personal interpretation of what makes a massacre. Your other diffs are fine, or good. This is a reasonable compromise, although your first reply was fine remaining at massacre with no mention of COMMONNAME.

This is why this needs looking at in a different venue. As Ealdgyth says in a section above, I cannot see how even with quadrupled word and diff allowances AE could possibly begin to investigate such a nebulous thing as is alleged here. There's simply too much here. We can't, with our limited setup, determine how often you argue for commonname versus I think we're in massacre territory. That's why this report should be handled in the venue designed specifically for that. To be clear, I'm not saying that you're violating NPOV, merely that there's enough evidence to make it worth looking at and that this isn't the venue to look at it. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:40, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Zero0000, Every single regular editor in every single contentious area will be in trouble if you pick their edits apart under a microscope. That is why you have a committee elected to sort through and discuss such evidence and determine if there is a problem that needs solving, rather than leaving it up to the same 3-5 administrators at AE who have already told that committee that reports such as this are beyond what AE is set up to handle. Admins in this section have said they would need to see more evidence, but this report is already far over the permitted word and diff allotment. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:33, 7 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
When I saw Nableezy at AE pop up on my watchlist I figured this was going to be renewed attention to the long simmering report above. I am in general alignment with Vanamonde in both the fact that I haven't gone through this in detail and what NPOV means; if the sources are covering the two sides differently so should we. If the strongest evidence of Nableezy falling short on this stem from 10 or 11 months ago, I don't think there is anything for us to do in that regard. I'm a little more sympathetic to the "refer conduct that is at borderline warning level to ArbCom" (meaning conduct that just barely crosses, or doesn't, the line of conduct violation); on my mind is this finding of fact I largely wrote about AE enforcement in a similar topic area and where I expressed doubt that I would have done better as an AE admin when voting for it. That said I don't think in either this report or the one above we've just focused on the "easy" parts, I continue to find Nableezy not at all the worst offender - by a clear margin - in the previous report, and for me the conduct in this report we're all talking about is a "do better" outcome not even a "formal warning" outcome. But having guidance from ArbCom on how they want to see this enforced is why we have an elected ArbCom and so I suppose referring to them does make sense for this and the previous filing. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:56, 6 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
WP:SEALIONING is incredibly tedious to prove -- it can easily take 20 diffs, and sometimes more to show that the issue is ongoing or widespread -- and even if you've brought those diffs here or to ANI, no one wants to assess them because that many diffs are daunting to go through. One almost has to be involved to get it. I don't know what the answer is to this. I don't know whether it's something AE can be expected to deal with. But it is a real and frustrating problem for well-intentioned editors working anywhere, much less at CTOPs, and as a project we need to find some way to handle this. Valereee (talk) 15:23, 7 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Selfstudier, maybe? It requires dedication, probably...but maybe we have enough of that in CTOPs, at least? Valereee (talk) 16:35, 7 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Gianluigi02

Latest comment: 6 days ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Page blocked for a week by ScottishFinnishRadish. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 17:37, 10 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Gianluigi02

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: BilledMammal (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 13:55, 8 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

User against whom enforcement is requested: Gianluigi02 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 4#ARBPIA General Sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Engaged in edit-warring at November 2024 Amsterdam attack, violating WP:1RR and WP:3RR. Reverts include, but aren't limited to:

When asked to self-revert, instead promised to continue edit-warring.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 14:16, 15 July 2024 (see the system log linked to above).

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

13:55, 8 November 2024

Discussion concerning Gianluigi02

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Gianluigi02

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Gianluigi02

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Blocked from the article for one week. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:22, 8 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Butterscotch Beluga

Latest comment: 3 days ago13 comments6 people in discussion

There is consensus among uninvolved admins that Butterscotch Beluga's editing does not qualify as gaming. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:24, 13 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Butterscotch Beluga

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Chess (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 22:59, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

User against whom enforcement is requested: Butterscotch Beluga (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:PIA4, specifically the implied ban on gaming edits to bypass the 500/30 rule.

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

2024-10-28 Makeandtoss (who I'm not accusing of anything) starts an RfC on the Jerusalem Post.
2024-10-28 On this date, Butterscotch Beluga has around two hundred edits (after creating their account in June)
2024-11-11 Butterscotch Beluga makes 500 edits in the span of two weeks. This uptick happens almost immediately after the RfC is posted.
2024-11-11 2024-11-11 Shows up to comment on an RfC calling the Jerusalem Post unreliable and defend CoolAndUniqueUsername.

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Participated in process about the area of conflict (such as a request or appeal at AE, AN or an Arbitration Committee process page), on 2024-11-04.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Also made their account within a day of CoolAndUniqueUsername.[83] [84]

@Butterscotch Beluga: You made over 250 edits in the week after the RfC was posted,[85] more than all of the edits you've made on your account prior to that date. Any non-RfC related reasons you decided you needed to rush EC? Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 23:51, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Butterscotch Beluga CoolAndUniqueUsername

Discussion concerning Butterscotch Beluga

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
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Statement by Butterscotch Beluga

I'll be honest, I didn't know this source was being discussed until I was checking sources for November 2024 Amsterdam attacks &, as I couldn't find the Jerusalem Post listed at perennial sources, I checked to see if there were discussion on it. I'll be clear that, no, I don't hold them in high regard as a source, but I did not think it'd be unreasonable for me to participate there. I guess I'm sorry for being a newer editor who wants to contribute to a topic I know about.

In regards to the accusation of gaming, I understand in hindsight why it looks sketchy, so apologies for that. I've honestly been wanting to go through & remove deprecated/unreliable sources & would actually like to get back to doing that, but I've recently discovered that every minor edit I make in this topic becomes surprisingly exhausting & time consuming.

I would like to note however that this is the second time Chess has accused (or implied in this case, if you want to be pedantic) an editor in that RFC of being a WP:SPA. I do understand this is a rather low-trust topic area (in a way, rightfully so), but I genuinely did not mean to rush towards extended confirmed. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 23:24, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Actually, I realize I should comment specifically on my defense of @CoolAndUniqueUsername . I like to read every comment before giving my opinion & saw a long tangent regarding accusations towards them.

Looking into it, I saw they were incorrect claims & wanted to set the record straight.

I can't vouch for @CoolAndUniqueUsername's intent or potential malfeasance as an editor, but the details brought against them were factually incorrect & I'm a stickler for details. Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 23:35, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Chess Again, I didn't intend to rush EC, but I did want to contribute to the wiki in some way. I'm a little too anxious to make large main space edits, so I thought I could help by sorting through & tagging deprecated sources because I didn't think anyone else would want to do it.

Recently I've been going through Rate Your Music citations as there's a boatload of them scattered across rather minor articles. Again, I'd like to apologize for accidently causing what seems to've become a scene.

@ScottishFinnishRadish Would it be considered a bad idea to continue tagging deprecated sources while this case is open or would it be ok for me to do that as long as it's unrelated to WP:PIA? Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 00:04, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Butterscotch Beluga

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I've looked into this before, and found that the totality of the edits has enough substance where I didn't take unilateral action. The lines around gaming are blurry, and there's no solid consensus to be found, so I'm interested in what other admins think of their rush to 500. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:42, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Absent any further input, I'll be closing this as no action in the next day or so. The line for gaming EC and if simply rushing simple but constructive edits qualifies really needs to be clarified by the community before I'd be comfortable pulling permissions in edge cases like this. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:05, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Butterscotch Beluga, you can continue tagging the sources. I don't think there was ever a question that the tags were acceptable. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:21, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
The work done was unique to each page but was also seemingly done to "qualify" for ECR despite what was written here. The charges of gaming would be less compelling if there was also some effort, at least some of the time, to remediate the problem rather htan just tag it. But, at least under current ArbCom guidance, I'm not sure I'm ready to call this gaming because there was time and attention paid to each edit made. Barkeep49 (talk) 23:55, 11 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
They also engaged at talk pages of other contentious articles, which ticks the experience box that ECR hopes to establish. It's pretty clear that there was a rush to get the permission, but absent community consensus on gaming we're at about the same place. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:06, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
While this certainly looks rather like a race to EC, I don't see these edits as trivial or pointless enough to meet the common definition of "gaming". I would also note that the user has continued such work even after gaining EC, which is another mark against being pure "gaming" to reach EC. Absent any evidence of actual misconduct, I would not support any sanction here. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 05:58, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
This is EC gaming - an obvious sleeper suddenly becoming active and indiscriminately reverting apparently every IP edit over the course of about twelve minutes. A five-month-old account making consistent edits (and edits related to this topic) consistently throughout that time is not. It just isn't - it's a new user learning the ropes. This is plainly a witch hunt. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 22:17, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Nableezy

Latest comment: 3 days ago45 comments17 people in discussion

Withdrawn, with apologies to Nableezy and to everyone for the time wasted. I wasn't going to be the one to close this to make sure I took my licks, but with Nableezy's suggestion, I'm going and closing. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:20, 13 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Nableezy

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: ScottishFinnishRadish (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 18:40, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

User against whom enforcement is requested: Nableezy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:ARBPIA4

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

07:08, 12 November 2024 The text also presupposes Israel has a right to exist, another claim Wikipedia cannot make in its own voice.
12:29, 12 November 2024 Did you think Wikipedia is supposed to be putting contested claims in its own voice?

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

90 day topic ban for BATTLEGROUND, reduced to 30 on appeal

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Made another editor aware of the CTOP

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I am making this report as an uninvolved administrator to elicit the opinions of other administrators about the contents of the diffs presented. I will be putting my thoughts in the administrator's section. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:40, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[86]

Discussion concerning Nableezy

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Nableezy

Um, the idea that any state has a right to exist is a contested topic in international law. Wikipedia does not present contested views as though they were uncontested facts. We have an article on the topic, right to exist, largely written by Buidhe. This is utterly surreal. See also Rosguill's statement. Barkeep49, nobody discusses a German or US right to exist, that simply is not a topic that anybody in academia discusses. Because it isnt asserted, basically ever. States exist by virtue of existing. There is no inherent right of a state to exist. People have a right to exist, states exist when they have the power to assert their existence. See for example one United Nations special rapporteur discussing this. Objecting to a user inserting a partisan talking point, sourced to a partisan newspaper (a newspaper for an international law topic!), meriting this reaction is absurd. I have no idea how anybody can fault me for thinking that SFR has been fishing for a way to sanction me at this point. This is unreal. nableezy - 19:36, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Not pertinent? Did you even read the diff from BM? He put in the narrative voice that this book denied Israel's right to exist. In what world is saying that Wikipedia's voice is proclaiming the fact of such a right, and that it should not be taking a position on such a contested claim, not pertinent???? I also object to this insane set up in which an admin is playing the role of both prosecutor and judge. An admin who has made a series of statements that are both false and prejudicial to the result of the complaint they themselves opened. nableezy - 22:34, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@ScottishFinnishRadish you want to answer how you can possibly say my discussing what was put in the article is either inflammatory or not pertinent? If the only thing you care about is uninvolved admins, as the views of the peons may be discarded, there are a couple of them below me who have addressed the actual issue raised here. But I would appreciate an explanation as to how my comment was either not pertinent, given the content that was in the article, or in any way inflammatory. nableezy - 00:30, 13 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@ScottishFinnishRadish the issue was that Wikipedia was saying in its narrative voice that Israel has a right to exist. If that had been an attributed view you would have a point, but it was placed in Wikipedia's voice. I cant believe I have to explain this, but this edit has Wikipedia claiming that Israel has a right to exist. That is a contested POV, not a fact that is widely agreed upon in reliable sources, making that a NPOV violation. That you continue to say that my raising that was not pertinent is dumbfounding. And if there was an unconstructive comment made in reply to it, why didnt you bring the person who made that unconstructive reply to AE instead of me? As far as causing drama, you started a fire and are now saying why is it so hot? Did you even consider asking me why I wrote what I wrote before, once again, seeking sanctions against me? Do you find it reasonable to present an inaccurate claim against a user and then to be posting in the results section of that complaint? Do you think your initial comment was either accurate or not inflammatory? And finally, do you think it is unreasonable for me to think that you are fishing for a sanction against me, regardless of the merits of any complaint? nableezy - 00:50, 13 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Whose*, but I appreciate that final message and accept the apology. nableezy - 02:16, 13 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@ScottishFinnishRadish maybe close this as withdrawn? I dont want this to drag out so long I can’t reclaim the record for most threads in a single AE archive. nableezy - 14:14, 13 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by SimonM223

I think this is rather surreal that, at this point, we have three separate arbitration enforcement requests against one user who appears not to have violated any wikipedia policy. Regardless of the connotations of the specific example the idea that any state has a right to exist is not a universally accepted one. And, frankly, the context in which the statement was made is one of an absurd inclusion in which a source is claiming that a bromine coloring book with pictures of Palestinian journalists, Nelson Mandela and Edward Said in it is calling for the elimination of Israel simply for using the phrase "From the River to the Sea." I hope that no action is taken here. And perhaps we could go a day without another attempt to get Nableezy kicked off the island. Simonm223 (talk) 18:52, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Barkeep49 I have read a lot of anarchist critique of politics. Such often include critiques of the state as a political form such as Society Against the State by Pierre Clastres, A Thousand Plateaus by Gilles Deleuze and Felix Guattari, and Theses on the Terrible Community by the Tiqqun collective. As such my personal opinion is that the idea that any state has a right to exist, as a state, is a contested one that should not be positively asserted as fact by Wikipedia and should, instead, be attributed against reliable sources. Simonm223 (talk) 19:11, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Barkeep49 the sources I am using generally assert that no states have a positive right to exist and generally cast doubt on the idea that a state can, in fact, have rights as such. I would assert, if we take political philosophy seriously, then this critique can, and should, be applied against all states. Certainly including Germany and the United States. Simonm223 (talk) 19:19, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by Rosguill

I agree that this is a surreal request, that appears to be motivated by a lack of familiarity with contemporary historical and philosophical literature. Outside of polemic declarations by nationalists of one side or the other in political discourse, historical literature typically challenges the idea that any state has an abstract right to exist. E.g. [87], [88], [89]. Note that none of these are anarchist publications: setting aside the question of whether we *should* have states, historians and philosophers generally approach the states that they study as historical fact, not as moral propositions, and only study the question of a state's "right to exist" when a political conflict has explicitly called the issue to question in those specific terms. The discourse of handwringing over a state's right to exist is thus largely unique to protracted conflicts of self-determination, and is by far the most prominent with respect to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in particular. Nableezy is well within the bounds of academic discourse to note that a state's "right to exist" is not something that should be casually asserted in wikivoice. The fact that this assertion was only tangentially related to the content at issue, makes the purpose of this AE report even less clear. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 19:18, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

For what it's worth, while I do think it's possible to come to the conclusions Ivanvector identifies by reading right to exist, I think that article is somewhat lacking in its History section, which doesn't really document the phenomena I've identified here, although you can infer that something is missing by the fact that the entirety of said section being either a) prescriptive statements by 18th c. philosopher Thomas Paine and 19th c. philosopher Ernest Renan or b) a somewhat obscure citation to US mass market publication Living Age ca 1903, with no up-to-date academic citations or actual discussion of the history of the concept's use and development. I'll avoid improving the article until after this discussion has settled to avoid the impression of WP:POINT. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 20:11, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by Levivich

I'd like to see SFR link three RS that say Israel has a right to exist. If the negation of that claim were WP:FRINGE, it should be trivially easy to do. Levivich (talk) 19:19, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@sfr, the reason it looks like you are seeking sanctions is because you wrote In as much as any nation has a right to exist, I think the very least we're looking at a WP:FRINGE viewpoint being used to argue content and against a provided source. I know that I've blocked editors for similar comments on both the existence of Palestine and Israel. I am interested in what other administrators think about these diffs. which is you saying that you're seeking sanctions and asking if other admin agree. Otherwise, why are you asking admins about a content issue? No, you're asking admins if this is sanctionable, not for their opinion on the content dispute, but rather whether it's a conduct violation. You pointed out that you've sanctioned (blocked) other editors for similar comments. That means you're seeking sanction. It's not because of the template you used. Levivich (talk) 02:02, 13 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by Ivanvector

I'm not directly involved in this, I just came to see what absurdity resulted in there being three sections on Nableezy here. @Barkeep49: you linked to right to exist, but did you read it? The largest section in the article, #Israel/Palestine, describes in summary many of the historical arguments surrounding the question of Israel's right to exist, a question that has been debated since at least the end of the second world war, and indeed whether such a right exists at all for any state. I don't expect we are going to settle that debate on Wikipedia, but I do think that would be enough to reject outright Wikipedia taking an affirmative stance one way or the other in that longstanding debate. Or to put it another way, do we say in wikivoice that the United States or Germany have (or don't have) a right to exist? Or is this something that's only debated in the context of nationalist conflict? Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:44, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Rosguill:: I'll be the first to admit that I'm no philosopher, unless we're talking about double-entry bookkeeping; I'm going by what is written on the page.

I think we maybe have missed the point: the content in question contains the text, "In June 2024, a report surfaced about a new coloring book published in South Africa, which called for the destruction of Israel and the genocide of its inhabitants." The text was later modified to include the supposed denial of Israel's right to exist, and to attribute the destruction and genocide claim (but not the claim of rights) to one of the sources which does not have its own article. That's an extraordinary factual statement to make in Wikipedia's voice based only on explicitly Jewish sources, one of which is so unabashedly biased as to call into question its general reliability for any subject. Whoever added this evidently didn't bother to look for contrary viewpoints such as that of the book's author or publisher, other Jewish advocacy groups, or any assuredly neutral coverage whatsoever. In a rather brief search I located sources such as these which seem to suggest that this is, in fact, a rather contested opinion, and as such the highlighted content is a subtle yet severe violation of WP:NPOV. So regarding Nableezy's edits: the text does presuppose in wikivoice that Israel has a right to exist that can be denied by a colouring book, an extraordinary claim lacking appropriate sourcing; and indeed Wikipedia is not supposed to be putting contested claims of this or any nature in its own voice; therefore both of Nableezy's comments are objectively correct. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 21:08, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@IOHANNVSVERVS: that article is the one that SFR linked to in their opening statement, and which contained the text I highlighted above. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 21:11, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@BilledMammal: before you put words in my mouth you should read those that I actually published. Nowhere did I suggest that Jewish-authored sources should be considered less reliable than others on this subject, other than the one which quotes extensively from the South African Zionist Federation which I called "unabashedly biased". It would be absurd to exclude Jewish voices on this - as absurd as it is to cherrypick these particular voices and exclude others. Considering that other Jewish-authored sources spoke out against the interpretation of the Jewish-authored sources that we did use, it's patently obvious that NPOV was not followed; rather, someone cherrypicked a couple of sources with the POV they came here intending to push. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 01:29, 13 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by IOHANNVSVERVS

At the top of this page there is the text "Please use this page only to:" and four reasons are listed. "To get input from other administrators" on something doesn't seem to be in line with any of those reasons. Content disgareements are also explicity said to belong at other fora, though the filer here has stated this report is "about the diffs above that say Wikipedia cannot presuppose[s] Israel has a right to exist and that it is something that should not be put in wikivoice." And now admins appear to be discussing whether or not Israel has a right to exist, something which I believe is more of a propaganda/ideological point rather than an actual matter of international law. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 20:02, 12 November 2024 (UTC) (Edited significantly) 20:50, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

~~:@Barkeep49, for what reason have you linked to the Wikipedia article Calls for the destruction of Israel? IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 20:55, 12 November 2024 (UTC)~~21:19, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by Huldra3

Countries exists -or not. That is a very different question to if it has a "right to exist". I don' think any country has the "right to exist", why should I? I grew up hearing "God gave Israel to the Jews" -but I have been an agnostic/atheist since my late teens (over half a century ago), and I no longer believe in any country's "God-given right to exist", how could I? If that's a bannable offence on Wikipedia, then you better ban me, too. And ban Noam Chomsky, who "has argued that no state has the right to exist, that the concept was invented in the 1970s" (to quote our Right to exist-article.) Or:

Why Israel Has No ‘Right to Exist’, Foreign Policy Journal
Israel has no ‘right to exist'—and neither does any other state, The Conversation
Shlomo Sand: Opinion The Twisted Logic of the Jewish ‘Historic Right’ to Israel, Haaretz

It is a question much debated, also in academic literature (see Rosguill refs), or just google "does Israel has a right to exist?" I don't think anyone has the right to ban this opinion, even if you disagree with it, (I certainly don't want to ban anyone because they think Israel has a God-given right to exist), Huldra (talk) 21:16, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Not accepting -Jewish advocacies' groups viewpoint as something we can just quote in "wiki voice" id NOT the same as "advocate for Jewish sources being classified as less reliable than non-Jewish" User:Bilad Mammal: would you have liked repeating PLO's views in "wikivoice", as if it was undisputed? Huldra (talk) 23:23, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Bilad Mammal is making another straw man-argument: There is a huge difference between a Jewish advocacy group, and a source who happen to be Jewish. A Palestinian advocacy group can be compared with a Jewish advocacy group, IMO. The opinion of neither should be referred to as if it is uncontested, Huldra (talk) 23:42, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
As for "- they may have their own issues, but being Jewish is not one of them" I totally agree, Huldra (talk) 23:44, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by Andrevan

Even the PLO recognizes Israel's right to exist. For some sources see, Morris, Benny (2009-04-28). One State, Two States: Resolving the Israel/Palestine Conflict. Yale University Press. ISBN 978-0-300-15604-1., Beinart, Peter (2012). The Crisis of Zionism. Melbourne Univ. Publishing. ISBN 978-0-522-86176-1., Carter, Jimmy (2010-02-18). We Can Have Peace in the Holy Land. Simon and Schuster. ISBN 978-1-84983-065-2., Gans, Chaim (2008-06-23). A Just Zionism: On the Morality of the Jewish State. Oxford University Press, USA. ISBN 978-0-19-534068-6. Andre🚐 22:11, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by BilledMammal

Since it is being discussed, just contributing here to say that this edit was done to align our content with the source, which says A controversial new children's coloring book appeared on local bookshelves in South Africa (SA,) calling for the eradication of Israel and genocide of all who live there, according to a report by the South African Jewish Report (SAJR) from the beginning of June. and The new coloring book - titled "From the River to the Sea" - excludes Jews and Israelis, portraying them negatively as oppressors while promoting antisemitic narratives and denying Israel's right to exist.

I will add that I am very discomforted by the fact that some editors advocate for Jewish sources being classified as less reliable than non-Jewish sources on this topic. The position that Israeli sources are unreliable is debatable, but extending it to all Jewish sources, as some editors do or appear to do, comes far too close to the "dual loyalty" canard. BilledMammal (talk) 22:44, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Huldra:

would you have liked repeating PLO's views in "wikivoice", as if it was undisputed

Saying a Jewish source is comparable to the PLO is equally inappropriate, and for the same reasons. Jewish sources are as acceptable to use on this topic as any other source - they may have their own issues, but being Jewish is not one of them.

I don't want to derail this report, so I'm going to withdraw from the discussion now. BilledMammal (talk) 23:30, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

I know I said I would withdraw, but I want to add one more thing. Palestinian and Israeli advocacy groups are equivalent. Palestinian and Jewish advocacy groups aren't, and saying they are is the "dual loyalty" canard. BilledMammal (talk) 23:51, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Ivanvector: Your words were That's an extraordinary factual statement to make in Wikipedia's voice based only on explicitly Jewish sources, emphasis mine. We are already well off-topic, and I've now promised to leave twice now, so I'll leave your words speak for themselves should you decide to reply further. BilledMammal (talk) 01:36, 13 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by LokiTheLiar

While I'm not totally uninvolved in the topic area, I'm uninvolved for this specific dispute and I frankly think the idea that this deserves to be at AE is completely ridiculous to the point where it hurts the credibility of both the other two sections here with Nableezy's name on them and SFR's credibility as an admin to boot. This is just so clearly bog-standard content dispute stuff that I can't even imagine why SFR thought it was reasonable to bring it here. Loki (talk) 00:06, 13 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@ScottishFinnishRadish The issue is that you even thought this was worth bringing here, though. Loki (talk) 00:55, 13 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by Silver seren

Well, all three of the related sections on this page are ridiculous. The only POV pushing I see being brought up here is by ScottishFinnishRadish in making this embarrassing report. And Barkeep49 for even entertaining this. I'm ashamed for both of you right now. You're literally trying to use a content disagreement being rationally discussed as an argument for sanctioning. Even your statements below are just actively arguing the content dispute from your own POV and not as an actual AE issue. Just shameful. Silver seren^C 00:22, 13 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by Zero0000

This is ridiculous. Nableezy didn't say that Israel has no right to exist. Nableezy only wrote that Wikipedia shouldn't say so in wikivoice. Nableezy is correct and policy-conformant. We should not state in wikivoice that any state has a right to exist or not. For example, Wikipedia should not say in wikivoice that the USA has the right to exist either (will I be up on charges now?). Zero^talk 01:57, 13 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by Daveosaurus

User:ScottishFinnishRadish, once you have climbed down from the Reichstag and changed out of your Spider-Man outfit, while it may be an interesting discussion to have about whether any nation-state at all has a "right to exist", this is not the place for it. In fact there may not be a place for it on Wikpedia at all (Village Pump, maybe?). There is an administrators' noticeboard for discussion matters with admins.

To start you thinking: does Palestine have an inherent right to exist? Does Western Sahara have an inherent right to exist? Does Scotland have an inherent right to exist? Did Yugoslavia have an inherent right to exist? Daveosaurus (talk) 05:45, 13 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by Parabolist

Will no one rid SFR of this troublesome priest? Parabolist (talk) 11:21, 13 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by TarnishedPath

The fact that there are three separate reports here on Nableezy is absurd. If the situation is really that bad this should be a ArbCom referral where all participants (including fillers and others commenting in the AE referrals) are parties. TarnishedPath^talk 14:11, 13 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Nableezy

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I've opened this report to get input from other administrators about the diffs above that say Wikipedia cannot presuppose[s] Israel has a right to exist and that it is something that should not be put in wikivoice. This is a diff showing the content at issue.
In as much as any nation has a right to exist, I think the very least we're looking at a WP:FRINGE viewpoint being used to argue content and against a provided source. I know that I've blocked editors for similar comments on both the existence of Palestine and Israel. I am interested in what other administrators think about these diffs. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:54, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
IOHANNVSVERVS, the Arbitration committee procedures say that admins can bring things here for a broader view at Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Procedures#Expectations of administrators, which is what I was seeking in this situation. I'm glad I did, as well, because this discussion is providing a lot of context and information.

As for the FRINGE issue, it's not the philosophical question about the rights of states, it's about the application of that philosophy to our article content. Much as we don't have to presuppose the right of Palestine to exist in order to use sources discussing the illegality of settlements and removal of Palestinians from Gaza for Israeli resettlement we don't have to presuppose the right of Israel to exist to use sources about a book, or to add an attributed claim about what a source said about a book.

Another concern I had was the language is provocative. The "right to exist" question, which I didn't see as being pertinent in this discussion can easily lead to escalation. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:14, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Nableezy, the presupposition was not pertinent to what was added, as a claim does not have to be true in order for a party to deny it. Israel need not have a right to exist for someone to deny it. As for it being provocative, there was a unconstructive comment made in reply to it. Having seen something I thought was concerning I thought I'd try this method to reach out for additional viewpoints. And here we are. Worked super well, was very constructive, and didn't backfire and cause even more drama. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:45, 13 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
I disagree that saying that a book denied something is saying in wikivoice that the thing is true. That's a difference in interpretation, and that happens. That's also why I believed that what you said was concerning. I brought it here and explained my interpretation and asked what other admins felt.

Yes, I knew there was a fair chance that it could pan out this way, but I was hoping it wouldn't. If I were able to try this again I'd try to frame it differently than a report, perhaps just as a message like the Fascism discussion above. I can certainly understand why you think this is a normal report seeking sanctions, and that's on me for using the standard template. I'm sorry about that. I'm sure that also contributes to your belief that I'm fishing for sanctions. It's pretty unlikely that I'll disabuse you of that idea, but that's also why I used this method. I'd rather bring up my concerns and be told I'm wrong than unilaterally take action and still be just as wrong.

When adminning, especially doing Arbitration enforcement, you're reliant on your own judgement, and everyone is wrong sometimes. It's pretty clear my judgement was off in this case, so again, sorry to you specifically Nableezy, and sorry to everyone else who's time is wasted through my mistake. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

LokiTheLiar, I've just made a post on the talk page about this, but it comes down to the uninvolved administrator refers a matter to AE to elicit the opinion of other administrators in the arbitration processes. My hope was to have a discussion with other uninvolved administrators about the diffs. I haven't done this up to now because, in part, I knew that this outcome was possible, if not likely. Unfortunately there's no other "get the opinion of uninvolved administrators" method available. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:22, 13 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
@‌Simonm223: in what other contexts are we saying that the right to exist is controversial enough that we can't say it in Wikivoice? For Simon, Nableezy, or anyone: how do the reliable sources on this topic, Calls for the destruction of Israel address the right to exist? Barkeep49 (talk) 19:02, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Simonm223: you've provided sources that contest the right to exist. That perspective, but not only that perspective, is certainly represented at right to exist. But that wasn't my question. My question was in what other contexts are we saying that the right to exist is controversial enough that we can't say it in Wikivoice? I am unaware - for instance - of any controversey over saying in Wikivoice that the United States or Germany have rights to exist. Barkeep49 (talk) 19:16, 12 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Southasianhistorian8

Latest comment: 8 hours ago13 comments6 people in discussion

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Southasianhistorian8

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: GhostOfDanGurney (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 17:00, 14 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

User against whom enforcement is requested: Southasianhistorian8 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:ARBIPA

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

21:37, November 12 Ignores WP:ONUS, edit warring in order to restore POV-pushing/WP:COATRACK content after that content had been removed by Nyttend.
02:11, November 14 Repeats the same WP:COATRACK behaviour at another article, just over 24hrs after Nyttend (a longstanding administrator) warned them about WP:COATRACK on their talk page.
08:49 November 14 Personal attack towards me on their userpage in response to sharing my concern about diff2 and agreeing with Nyttend, claims I'm "piling on my t/p over a topic that does not concern you as a form of petty bullying/harassment and revenge." (bolding mine; Nyttend was the only other user with a message on their talk page)
10:05 November 14 Leaves a retaliatory message on my talk page, spurned by my reverting of their edit in diff2.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

20:47, 2022 May 30 Indeff'd for abusing multiple accounts in the area of conflict as per Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Suthasianhistorian8/Archive. Unblocked in December 2022 following a standard offer.
19:06, 2021 November 11 48hrs for edit warring in the area of conflict.

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 16:31, 2021 November 27 (see the system log linked to above).

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

SAH continues to push their anti-Sikh POV into articles. Diff1 shows them adding repetitive content which was already covered in the article, not to mention that it has its own article. Repeating in such detail can only be interpreted as an attempt to draw a equivalency between Khalistan movement and the Canada-India row that is not supported by sources.

Diff2 shows them doing them same at Hardeep Singh Nijjar, using that article as a COATRACK to add content about a tangentially relevant person, content which belong in an article about that person, and attempting to further their POV that Nijjar was a "militant".

Diffs 3 and 4 showcase an unwillingness to self-reflect when conduct concerns are brought up, getting defensive with personal attacks, retaliatory warnings, and digging up of past dirt (which they already mentioned in the last AE thread about them). At no point do they acknowledge WP:COATRACK either in response to Nyttend or myself.

Contribution history shows they nearly-exclusively edit about Sikh topics, suppressing positive information and restoring negative information. Talk page history shows numerous NPOV warnings. At this point, we either have a LISTENing issue or a WP:NOTHERE issue. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 17:00, 14 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@103.251.217.66: I disagree with your evaluation of this as only a content dispute. I am reporting conduct; specifically violations of WP:EW (after the user made an agreement to never edit war[90] as part of their SOCK unblock request), WP:NPOV, and WP:NPA. I am aware that AE does not and should never rule on content. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 01:14, 15 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Has SAH gotten a waiver of the word limit that I'm not aware of? They are at 1552 by my count. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 02:26, 15 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Ivanvector: While BLPCRIME is a reason why I reverted diff 2, it was not the only reason, with the other reason being that I felt SAH was pushing a POV using WP:COATRACK edits, something they had been warned about 24 hours previously for the edit in diff 1. My issue with the edit to Hardeep Singh Nijjar re: Arsh Dalla is beyond the BLPCRIME issue. It goes into the aspect of using another person's arrest to further a POV that Nijjar was a militant extremist.

The fact that SAH filed a report about Simonm223 to AN today[91] for simply trying to engage with SAH at SAH's talk page[92], then WP:BADGERed voorts at voort's talk page after voorts closed the thread[93] shows that SAH's conduct is the primary issue, not the content of any article. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 23:30, 16 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[94]

Discussion concerning Southasianhistorian8

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Southasianhistorian8

Talk about desperation. Any outsider can take a look at my handling on Khalistan movement and see that I handled myself very responsibly as opposed to GhostofDanGurney who keeps lobbing personal attacks at editors he dislikes. I only made one revert, and when Nyttend posted on my t/p, I told him I would not revert further, and initiated a discussion on the t/p. The content I added was literally a direct result of the killing of Hardeep Singh Nijjar, a Khalistan activist, and the RCMP's allegations of India's operations against Khalistan activists, so clearly the event is relevant to the page at least to some degree and I'm extremely confident that editors at 3O or DRN will agree. The content there wasn't even authored by me, I copied it (with attribution) from the Canada-India diplomatic row. If I was so biased, wouldn't I be trying to suppress this information? I figured that precluding such a consequential event would be irresponsible and make it appear as though the page was skewed towards a pro-India narrative. What more do you want from me?

Now, in line with GhostofDanGurney hastily making edits to get one over me such as here-where he engaged in interpretation of a primary source to publicy discredit a figure, as confirmed by ScottishFinnishRadish on A/E, here where he falsely accused me of plagiarizing his work Now he falsely called Arsh Dalla a "low profile" individual thus wrongly invoking BLPCRIME; Ghost could have spent at least 10 minutes researching this guy or at least initiated a respectful discussion on the t/p instead of piling attacks on my t/p. Instead he made a rude condescending post on my t/p, threatening to escalate matters and stating that I need to confirm whether I understand Wikipedia's policies to him, as if he's my boss or something. He has yet to engage in the t/p of the article where I laid out sources and arguments, instead coming here to again win a content dispute illegitimately.

Now just days after his failed A/E request where he was also criticized for making personal attacks and making nonconstructive edits, he's again wasting everyone's tie over this drama. This ridiculous BATTLEGROUND behaviour should not be given carte-blanche here.Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 19:27, 14 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@GhostofDanGurney- Is one revert on the Khalistan movement page, in which I believed the removal from Nyttend to be a simple misunderstanding and subsequently went on the t/p, and zero reverts on the Hardeep Singh Nijjar page - for a grand total of one revert considered "edit warring". If so, you've edit warred hundreds of times as well Ghost. You've also told people to "fuck themselves", called them "thots" and "hypocrites" and more; I've never come close to saying something like that. Again, I strongly urge admins to issue a block for these juvenile insults. Literally every disagreement on his t/p is met with a nasty response-[95], [96]. This ill-researched statement is like the last time when you falsely accused me of plagiarizing your work.

Regarding, allegations of BLPCRIME or Dalla's low-profile/non public figure status-I've laid out a comprehensive case here-which shows extensive media coverage surrounding Dalla + sources in which Dalla clearly gave interviews to the media thus making him a high profile person as per Wiki policy. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 03:02, 15 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by (103.251.217.66 (talk))

I think both needs to calm down. both should talk on the article talk page before making changes to the article and stop reverting changes.
I see this is only as content dispute... I don't think Southasianhistorian8 is attacking you op.. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:GhostOfDanGurney&diff=prev&oldid=1255952101 you should assume good faith.. and you are also trying gatekeep article it seems to me... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Canada%E2%80%93India_diplomatic_row#NPOV

Statement by Simonm223

I would concur that both editors should probably both get some space from each other for a few days. A short-duration 2-way iBan might be a reasonable remedy here. Most of the edits in contention from both editors don't seem disruptive although both could be a bit more careful with sourcing to avoid primary sources and to ensure that secondary sources are included in major edits. The only point of contention I'd take with either's position (as I don't think either is actually entirely wrong so much as operating at cross-purposes) surrounds the interpretation of WP:BLPCRIME. Arsh Dalla is not a public figure per the definition laid out by WP:PUBLICFIGURE because his notoriety is entirely from the circumstances of him having been accused of a crime. As such the guidance, editors must seriously consider not including material—in any article—that suggests the person has committed or is accused of having committed a crime, unless a conviction has been secured for that crime very much applies here. Simonm223 (talk) 19:46, 14 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Southasianhistorian8 there is a key difference between Bishnoi and Dalla. Bishnoi stood trial and was convicted. My understanding is that Canada has declined to arrest and extradite Dalla. As such, since he is a free person and considered innocent both under Canadian law and by Wikipedia's standards, and since all the media coverage around him is about whether he did any criminal acts, we should not be commenting on him on Wikipedia. I hope this clarifies WP:BLPCRIME for you. Simonm223 (talk) 20:08, 14 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Honestly my attempt to provide some friendly help regarding the BLPCRIME issue has left me a bit more concerned about WP:IDHT than I was at the outset. Especially since WP:OSE statements do not override BLP policy. Simonm223 (talk) 23:18, 14 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by Swatjester

Regardless of which side is correct on the merits of the arguments, it does *not* help SAH's case that they've presented their opposition to Ghost of Dan Gurney in an uncivil and excessively inflammatory manner. "he clearly has an extreme vendetta against and is desperate to hound me off this page" fails to assume good faith. So does accusing them of having "a long history of suppressing any critical information on the page... saw this opportunity and rushed to try to hound me further." Vaguely handwaving at a previous report does not suffice to make that anything less than an aspersion. Saying "I find it reprehensible that this bullying behaviour has carte-blanche on Wikipedia" is both uncivil, inflammatory, and presumes that the behavior is 1) bullying, and 2) has "carte-blanche" despite this AE request existing and there having been discussion about it in multiple talk page forums already. Regardless of how this AE gets decided, I'd admonish SAH to find a more constructive, less inflammatory way of expressing their positions. I think all involved would do well to be reminded that in a contentious topic area you need to be on your best behavior. ⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 21:24, 14 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Southasianhistorian8

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Southasianhistorian8, you're at three times your limit and no admins have commented yet. You need to trim about a thousand words. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 02:43, 15 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
This seems like a plain dispute over interpretation of BLPCRIME with respect to an edit that was made yesterday, but instead of a discussion at WP:BLPN, there are three enforcement threads visible on this page and another at WP:AN. Perhaps the editors involved should try BLPN first, or other forms of dispute resolution, instead of running here to get each other banned? Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:35, 16 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

GhostOfDanGurney

Latest comment: 1 day ago8 comments3 people in discussion

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning GhostOfDanGurney

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Southasianhistorian8 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 04:03, 15 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

User against whom enforcement is requested: GhostOfDanGurney (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Topic ban on India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan related topics.

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

19 September 2023 Tendentious edit warring alleging "anti-Canada POV pushing" despite numerous editors' objections and RS
21 October 2023 Admits to harassing another user he was in a content dispute with on Twitter.
25 October 2024 ~~Personal attacks~~ Inflammatory edit summary, accusing of cherrypicking and being without evidence, even though most of the article included content for which evidence was not publicly disclosed and WP:OWN behaviour
22 October 2024 More ~~personal attacks~~ inflammatory edit summaries, also acknolwedged by ScottishFinnishRadish in the 1st AE
26 October 2024 Replaces neutrally worded sentence with an inflammatory and tendentious interpretation of a primary source as acknowledged by ScottishFinnishRadish, clearly attempting to publicly discredit the diplomat, thus violating WP:BLP
26 October 2024 Files an A/E request over a content dispute, wasting a large amount of community time
26 October 2024 Falsely claimed I plagiarized his work
15 November 2024 WP:IDHT, brazenly ignoring sources right above him which explicitly state that Dalla's alleged criminal network was linked to Khalistani militancy
14 November 2024 Makes an inflammatory and condescending post on my talk page, accusing me of WP:NPOV violations and threatening to escalate matters before engaging on the t/p.
14 November 2024 Files another A/E request days after his first failed one over 1(!) revert and me responding to his escalation on my t/p. Instead of following WP:BRD, Ghost is filing frivolous reports forcing this platform to be a substitute for content issues. He did not engage with my arguments on the t/p of the Nijjar page which I laid out right after he reverted me, instead he immediately filed a 2nd report, then waited multiple hours to respond to my points on the t/p. He cannot even abide by Wikipedia's most fundamental policy which is to discuss when you have a disagreement with someone, not intimidate them through reports.
15 November 2024 Falsely claimed I was in violation of edit warring, citing a total of one revert.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

14 August 2020 Blocked for personal attacks
19 June 2018 Blocked for edit warring

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Previously given a discretionary sanction or contentious topic restriction or warned for conduct in the area of conflict on 21 October 2023 by Kautilya3.
Gave CTOPS warning in this topic area on 19 October 2024

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

GhostOfDanGurney has a history of being incredibly rude and juvenile when engaged in content disputes. He regularly calls people names, assumes bad faith or incites drama through his inflammatory bheaviour-Be gone thot, Actually, I'll let people see how much of a hypocrite you are for posting this fucking bullshit., [97], [98], [99], [100], among numerous other diffs. Constantly exhibits tendentious and WP:OWN behaviour in articles-[101], [102], [103] + [104], [105], [106].

Really Swatjester, I'd urge you to read all the diffs and then come back and seriously tell me that Ghost doesn't have an issue with personal attacks and assuming bad faith, apparently calling people "thots" and telling them to "go fuck themselves" isn't a personal attack. Apparently having to deal with numerous frivolous reports over petty content disputes and 1 revert and being bullied is something I should just take and not complain about. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 04:37, 15 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Even barring the personal attacks, how is it fair that he's non stop filing frivolous reports against me-in the most recent A/E he filed, it was literally over one revert, content he personally didn't like, and me responding to his escalation on my t/p (pretty ironic considering what he says on his own t/p). Instead of engaging with my points on the article's t/p, he filed a 2nd A/E. How is that not brazen harassment and bullying and a major waste of time? How in the world is that not a weaponization of A/E to get one over an editor they dislike? Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 04:55, 15 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

@GhostOfDanGurney The definition of militancy is as follows: "the use of confrontational or violent methods in support of a political or social cause." Militancy almost always involves criminal behaviour and actions, does it not? Otherwise it wouldn't be called militancy, it'd be called activism. A criminal network alleged to be close the Khalistan movement apparently does not mean violent actions taken out in order to support the movement? Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 07:38, 15 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested: [107]

Discussion concerning GhostOfDanGurney

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by GhostOfDanGurney

In their statement in the above request against them, they said, "He has yet to engage in the t/p of the article where I laid out sources and arguments". So I commented on the talk page,[108] saying that I opposed the content as (in addition to the BLPCRIME issue) there was already adequate sourced content on Hardeep Singh Nijjar#Allegations of militant activity (it's already the largest section of the article). This had nothing to do with the additional sources SAH presented to the talk page after I had removed the content.

I then wrote a sentence on the wording "criminal network" as used by SAH in their >greentext proposal which made no corroboration to any militancy, just allusions to "gangsters". It did not mention the KTF by name, and the preceding quote they posted only mentions "the Khalistan cause". An IDHT charge here is a long stretch that shows a misunderstanding of the policy, and to use the phrase "brazenly ignoring" here is an assumption of bad faith. If my above request doesn't result in sanctions against SAH, this frivolous request should. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 07:18, 15 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

What does any of that re: militancy have to do with me "act[ing] as though [my] point must be accepted by the community when [I] have been told otherwise.", per WP:IDHT? I don't understand at all how my talk page comment violates IDHT. What about that specific comment is actionable here? ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 08:32, 15 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by (username)

Result concerning GhostOfDanGurney

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

This is unnecessary, and retaliatory. Spot checking of the diffs alleging personal attacks, I don't see anything remotely of the sort. Going back and digging up diffs from 2018 and 2021 is likewise unhelpful and represents a battleground mentality towards weaponizing an AE action that is deeply concerning. Honestly if SAH thought this was a good idea after not listening to the advice about dropping the stick and behaving more civilly on the other AE request, it probably merits boomerang sanctions to stop the disruption. ⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 04:22, 15 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

SAH, I've looked at the diffs. The ones from 2024 don't appear actionable, and I think your characterizations of them as personal attacks are a stretch. The "thots" and "go fuck themselves" diffs were, as I mentioned, from 2018 and 2021, not directed at you, and were comments from his own talk page (which is a space where he is entitled to ask people to stop/leave within the confines of WP:USERTALKSTOP, and though it doesn't excuse the incivility of the language, we tend to give a degree of leeway in those cases.) So I don't see the relevance of those edits to your dispute with GhostofDanGurney today. ⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 04:47, 15 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Blockhaj

Latest comment: 14 hours ago7 comments3 people in discussion

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Blockhaj

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Gitz6666 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 11:33, 16 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

User against whom enforcement is requested: Blockhaj (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Yasuke
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

20:11, 15 November 2024. Blockhaj adds according to some historians against clear RFC consensus (There exists a consensus to refer to Yasuke as a samurai without qualification), plus tag bombing.
22:54, 15 November 2024 . More POV-pushing - further neutralising the text, Blockhaj removes sourced content on the samurai status (Nobunaga (...) made him the first recorded foreigner to receive the rank of samurai).
23:11, 15 November 2024. Blockhaj explains their reasons, That rfc is not neutral, after I opened a discusssion on the talk page (Recent edits).
23:47, 15 November 2024. Blockhaj restores their edits after Silver seren undid them at 23:24, 15 November 2024.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 23:00, 15 November 2024.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Both edit N° 1 and edit N° 2 are reverts (undoing this edit and this edit respectively); Blockhaj violated WP:1RR by restoring their preferred version with edit N° 4. Besides, disregard for RfC consensus (WP:IDHT) and POV-pushing are pretty clear. There may be a lack of knowledge of WP:RULES, as suggested by their behaviour during the Yasuke case (between 08:57, 10 November 2024 and 09:10, 10 November 2024, Blockhaj added their !votes to the Proposed Decision and got reverted by ScottishFinnishRadish here) and by this unwarranted removal of another user's comment: 19:53, 15 November 2024. Still, it's disruptive.

With the 1RR restriction now in place, their preferred description for Yasuke is now still in the first sentence of the lead section.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

11:30, 16 November 2024

Discussion concerning Blockhaj

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Blockhaj

Im sorta done with the Yasuke discussion since there is a clear motive by particularly focused edditors to not improve the page based on arbitrary systems rather than direct discussion.

As for the complaints:

20:11, 15 November 2024. Blockhaj adds according to some historians against clear RFC consensus (There exists a consensus to refer to Yasuke as a samurai without qualification), plus tag bombing.

The rfc cannot be taken seriously by anyone interested in history. It is not a neutral statement and goes against basic principles of such subjects like Yasuke. We have very few sources on Yasuke, and educated guesses about his status, especially judgmental terms such as samurai, should not be portrayed as unanimous by historians to any degree of imagination. This is a case of echochambering. The rfc was full of users with no previous edits on Wikipedia, and the larger coherent "edit gathering" coincided with Ubisofts announcement and following damage control of their new game portraying Yasuke as a full-fledged samurai. I do not claim that every new editor there was hired by Ubisoft, but it was clearly corelated to some degree and biased in favour of the company's agenda.--Blockhaj (talk) 12:13, 16 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

As for the "tag bombing" (how can 2 related tags be classified as tag bombing?), they reflect the discussion which has been going on under the section: Talk:Yasuke#Full_section_regarding_the_definition_of_samurai.--Blockhaj (talk) 12:13, 16 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

22:54, 15 November 2024 . More POV-pushing - further neutralising the text, Blockhaj removes sourced content on the samurai status (Nobunaga (...) made him the first recorded foreigner to receive the rank of samurai).

This paragraph was out of place because it is covered later in the text with better formatting and is thus superfluous and somewhat disruptive to the latter flow.--Blockhaj (talk) 12:13, 16 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

23:11, 15 November 2024. Blockhaj explains their reasons, That rfc is not neutral, after I opened a discusssion on the talk page (Recent edits).

This one is self-explanatory above.--Blockhaj (talk) 12:13, 16 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

23:47, 15 November 2024. Blockhaj restores their edits after Silver seren undid them at 23:24, 15 November 2024.

Silver seren reverted various edits in one swoop without checking them, reintroducing various textual errors from previous erronous edits which i had fixed.--Blockhaj (talk) 12:13, 16 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Blockhaj

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I'm thinking indef topic ban, although I'll give this a bit to see if there's any objection. Ignoring an RFC and edit warring after an arb case just wrapped up is definitely the wrong call. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:58, 16 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Ecrusized

Latest comment: 4 hours ago5 comments2 people in discussion

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user: Ecrusized (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Ecrusized (talk) 15:00, 16 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Sanction being appealed: WP:CT/A-I

Sanction notice on user talk page. Diff: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ecrusized&diff=prev&oldid=1224781735

Discussion leading to the block: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1157#WP:BATTLEGROUND User:BilledMammal

Administrator imposing the sanction: ScottishFinnishRadish (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator: The appealing editor is asked to notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise. If a block is appealed, the editor moving the appeal to this board should make the notification.

Diff: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:ScottishFinnishRadish&diff=prev&oldid=1257767232

Statement by Ecrusized

Greetings all. Today is precisely the 180th day since the filing of my indefinite topic ban on the Arab-Israeli conflict. I was sanctioned for WP:BATTLEGROUND editing, not understanding the arbitration rules, (including 1RR). As well as a commentary towards other editors. During the past 6 months, I have completely refrained from editing any and all topics linked to the Arab-Israeli conflict on English Wikipedia. I have updated the maps of the Israel-Hamas war, and Israel-Hezbollah conflict, on Commons, after confirming with ScottishFinnishRadar, the administrator who sanctioned me, that editing commons was not in violation of my topic ban. I would like to appeal my topic ban in this area because I have now learned about the 1RR rule, what the arbitration commitee is and how its rules work. As well as my personal commentary towards other editors in the topic area. I believe my appeal is just as I have observed all of my sanctions rules since its enforcement, and I have waited 6 months to file this very first appeal on the ban as its required. Thank you all.

Ecrusized response to Red-tailed hawk

Dear Red-tailed hawk, neither of the two articles you've linked, which I have edited during my topic ban, are sanctioned under WP:CT/A-I. During the time of my sanctioning from the topic, I have checked the talk page header of every article I was editing to confirm beforehand that I was not violating my topic ban. 2024 missile strikes in Yemen is an article about US and British strikes on Yemen. The article is not linked to the Arab-Israeli conflict on its talk page header in any way. Instead, it is applied to enforcement for post-1978 Iranian politics. For which I was not placed under restriction for. Regarding the now deleted article, 2024 Turkish Hostage Crisis which I nominated for deletion. It was a news story citing Turkish language sources, once again, not linked to the WP:CT/A-I nor in the scope of that topic. Both of the articles are also not linked Israel, or Arab-Israeli conflict in their categories. Additionally, I was told my the administrator giving me my sanction that I must refrain from editing topics involving Arab-Israeli conflict, which is what I did. I was not told that I must also refrain from editing topics that might be related to that topic area. This is why I am asking for an appeal, and giving a bold statement saying During the past 6 months, I have completely refrained from editing any and all topics linked to the Arab-Israeli conflict on English Wikipedia. If there are clear lines defining this topic ban, I believe I have completely abided by them. Ecrusized (talk) 21:42, 16 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

Statement by ScottishFinnishRadish

Statement by Red-tailed hawk

I am going to note that the user continued to make edits to articles relating to the 2024 missile strikes in Yemen, a topic very much within the scope of the ongoing war (see Israel–Hamas war#Yemen and the Red Sea) after the topic ban was issued on 20 May. These edits include:

A substantial edit to 2024 missile strikes in Yemen made on 31 May;
A page move and associated talk page move related to a specific missile strike in Yemen that was moved on 1 June;
Another set of edits to 2024 missile strikes in Yemen on 16 June.
The user created an AfD for 2024 Turkish hostage crisis on 5 July. The article was about a hostage taking scenario that was a protest against Israeli actions in Gaza.

As such, I am skeptical of the appellant's statement from above, where the appellant said During the past 6 months, I have completely refrained from editing any and all topics linked to the Arab-Israeli conflict on English Wikipedia. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 20:33, 16 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

In response to this comment:

With respect to neither of the two articles you've linked, which I have edited during my topic ban, are sanctioned under WP:CT/A-I, I will note that 2024 missile strikes in Yemen is extended confirmed protected per WP:ARBPIA (see this comment at WP:AELOG/2024#PIA), and that the infobox of 30 May 2024 Yemen strikes at the time of the page move indicated that this was part of the "spillover of the Israel–Hamas war". I do not understand how you reason that neither of these are within the scope of the WP:BROADLY construed Arab-Israeli conflict.
With respect to the deleted article, I have requested it be temporarily undeleted to show the text to everybody. However, it is quite clear to me that an article about a protest action against Israel's actions in the ongoing war would be within the scope of the WP:BROADLY construed WP:PIA tban.

— Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 02:24, 17 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

I will note that 2024 Turkish hostage crisis has now been restored temporarily for the purposes of this discussion. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 02:40, 17 November 2024 (UTC)Reply

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