Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard

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Traditional ecological knowledge

The articles traditional ecological knowledge and traditional knowledge could probably use more scrutiny by folks with the time to do so. In fact, it might be good to merge them. But in any case, while there is undoubtedly something to the idea that people who have lived in and depended on an environment for a long time have gained knowledge about that environment, this topic never seems to be too far from people who use it to science-bash, or to give credence to unreliable ways of knowing or supernaturalism. There also seems to be a lot of bloat. Crossroads ^-talk- 18:04, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

...and, sigh:

• Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_98#Indigenous_science
• Indigenous science (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch.
• Coloniality of knowledge (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

fiveby(zero) 18:13, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Was thinking some about the prior thread during the VP discussion with Tukdam and religion. Here also we have a call to legitimize other knowledge systems by exploring alternative epistemologies, ontologies and methodologies. While the Buddhism and consciousness revolution we are assured is on the way soon, it seems to me this one already happened. How do you provide information about knowledge when knowledge itself is disputed. fiveby(zero) 20:41, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Related: Decoloniality Leijurv (talk) 05:21, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I honestly have no idea what to do with these articles. The literature surrounding this topic, while published in reputable sources, is an intellectual walled garden that is largely ignored by non-proponents. This makes providing any sort of balance tricky. Hemiauchenia (talk) 23:48, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Big garden in as you say reputable sources. What would you do with Bob Denver? Mind Beyond Brain is Columbia University Press. fiveby(zero) 00:27, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I was primarily talking about "indigenous science" What I mean is that historians and philosophers of science largely don't engage with the sorts of academics who write about "Indigenous science". Buddhism (the subject of Mind Beyond Brain) to me doesn't seem to come under the scope of "indigenous science" It seems more in the same sort of book genera as The Tao of Physics and The Dancing Wu Li Masters. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:43, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't see an inherent difference:

1. Wikipedia should legitimize other knowledge systems for religious observers
2. Wikipedia should legitimize other knowledge systems for paranormal believers
3. Wikipedia should legitimize other knowledge systems for Buddhist scientists
4. Wikipedia should legitimize other knowledge systems for indigenous peoples

Pick all that apply.

Before anyone jumps on me that is not commenting on the groups but those who talk of new "epistemologies, ontologies and methodologies" or some kind of fusion with science. fiveby(zero) 01:25, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't see an inherent difference: I mean, a big difference would be that, say, Christian Bible fundamentalists and UFO proponents haven't historically been the victims of colonialism, displacement, white supremacy, and genocide the way Indigenous peoples have been, and there aren't major fields of respected, university press-published academia that legitimize the former two while there is a wide range of academically published scholars who write about decolonizing knowledge.

Though I'd say the real question isn't whether 'Wikipedia should legitimize other knowledge systems for X'. The more pertinent question is 'is X knowledge system documented and analyzed as a subject of interest by reliable sources, like academic publications, and how do those reliable sources characterize that knowledge system?' Wikipedia looks to the best relevant sources for the best way to describe a topic. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 04:15, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I believe the approach you describe as the real question follows this: "De-centring the ‘big picture’: The Origins of Modern Science and the modern origins of science" i linked in the older thread. That sounds to me appropriate for a global encyclopedia. But what we have here is a critique of Western science, and so Ecosystem management is a multifaceted and holistic approach to natural resource management. It incorporates both science and traditional ecological knowledge to collect data from long term measures that science cannot. Science can't do that? fiveby(zero) 05:00, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

As that paragraph in traditional ecological knowledge isn't footnoted, it's hard to judge whether it hews to sources and to which sources or not. What I do notice is that the apparently main article, ecosystem management, seems to describe the practice's relationship to science differently: ecosystem management is guided by ecological science to ensure the long-term sustainability of ecosystem services.

As for the question whether science can or can't do X, that answer would depend on what relevant reliable sources say about the topic, and what is meant by 'science' in those sources (science as practiced at a specific moment in time? scientism? specific hegemonically influential scientific institutions?).

In any case, the question of what Wikipedia should do, broadly speaking comes down to simply that Wikipedia should cite and summarize relevant reliable sources. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 08:15, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, failed to link the TEK article, and you are right it is not cited. Look at those which are such as Kimmerer, Robin Wall (2022). "Weaving Traditional Ecological Knowledge into Biological Education: A Call to Action". BioScience., Oxford University Press, 566 scholar cites.

So on the "reliable sources" grounds that is what i was questioning in the prior thread. Why are you removing 'holistic' here. That is like removing The Trinity from Max Hedroom's views if he were all over in the academic press. Not sorry philosophers, sorry jps. If you see it reifying the false dichotomy between "Indigenous knowledge" and "science" as if Indigenous people aren't doing "real" science that dichotomy is intentional and in the sources. It's got predictive power we are told, but it's not universal so not everyone can test that power. Sorry again. fiveby(zero) 13:38, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the reminder, but what is interesting in this 2002 (note the date!) paper is the uncited stereotype: Western science is conducted in an academic culture in which nature is viewed strictly objectively. I guess you could just write a sentence like that in a paper in 2002 and get away with it. I doubt that would pass the muster today! I don't think the "holism" is dichotomous, then. Now the framing seems to me to be more about eliminating intentional and unintentional bias against knowledge sourced to stakeholder communities. Does that track? jps (talk) 14:45, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes i think reading the wrong sources might be part of my problem w/ TEK. I don't know if "Indigenous Science" is a concept built on or a reframing of TEK? But was reading sources which included both and seeing the text in the article (which you removed) which seemed to merge both. Anyway this: Ludwig, David; Poliseli, Luana (2018). "Relating traditional and academic ecological knowledge". Biol Philos. 33 (5). reads much better. The aim of this article is to develop an account that relates the epistemic resources of TEK and AEK while avoiding both horns of the dilemma of assimilation and division. Some criticism of a couple authors i was reading and more: these accounts typically combine epistemic and political concerns also a simple holism–mechanism divide misrepresents the epistemic resources of both TEK and AEK and holders of TEK are perfectly capable of identifying mechanisms that underlie ecological phenomena.

Reading that source i don't think i need to "construct" or "fuse" or "legitimize" any epistemoligies do i? fiveby(zero) 02:50, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

This indeed aligns more closely with how I see TEK presently being used. jps (talk) 12:22, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Christian Bible fundamentalists and UFO proponents haven't historically been the victims of colonialism, displacement, white supremacy, and genocide the way Indigenous peoples have been, and there aren't major fields of respected, university press-published academia that legitimize the former two while there is a wide range of academically published scholars who write about decolonizing knowledge. While I do agree that traditional knowledge isn't necessarily on the same level as the former - even if Christian fundamentalists and ufologists had been the victims of colonialism, that wouldn't validate their views, even if they got more sympathy from some academics as a result. So that's not really relevant here. Aside from that, apparently some academics are legitimizing certain Western ideas of paranormal beliefs by appealing to non-Western beliefs, such as in this book mentioned earlier, from Columbia University Press. Even academics can be profringe. Crossroads ^-talk- 16:36, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

What is relevant is that according to the pertinent content guideline, in Wikipedia parlance, the term fringe theory is used in a broad sense to describe an idea that departs significantly from the prevailing views or mainstream views in its particular field. If decolonizing knowledge is part of a prevailing view in the relevant particular fields—in this case the framework appears to prevail in fields like anthropology and in subject areas like studies of colonized peoples, histories of colonialism, etc.—then I'm not sure how that would qualify as 'fringe' under our content guideline. I or you having a personal disagreement with the conclusions of academics isn't on its own enough grounds to deem scholars 'profringe'. On Wikipedia, we don't try to lead; we follow the sources. If there is a substantial, reputed, legitimately published scholarly field concluding that conventional institutions/systems/patterns of contemporary science are colonized/part of colonialism (that's the impression I'm getting from the thread and the articles so far), then it's not a 'fringe' position in that field. It might not be a universally conceived idea across all individual humans, but a lot of reliable academic sources describe the world quite differently from how the average human might (e. g., a god being in some way involved in human origins is a majority belief in the United States but is not at all how science understands and describes the unguided and undirected process of evolution). Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 01:11, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

This is a red herring. Whether a group has been historically oppressed has nothing to do with whether ideas associated with that group are valid. By that logic, we should be giving significantly more weight to Mormon views on archaeology and history. Furthermore, there is no policy or guideline that says academic sources should automatically be considered reliable, and the ones you are referring to here clearly are not, because they will publish almost anything that conforms to their a priori ideology/worldview. Partofthemachine (talk) 19:14, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

By that logic, we should be giving significantly more weight to Mormon views on archaeology: Suggesting that Mormons are as colonized, oppressed, and genocided as Native Americans—now that is itself a take quite out of step from academic consensus.

there is no policy or guideline that says academic sources should automatically be considered reliable: Not automatically—context still matters—but it seems significant to me that the neutral point of view policy recommends looking to books and journal articles and that the reliable sources guideline states that Material such as an article, book, monograph, or research paper that has been vetted by the scholarly community is regarded as reliable, where the material has been published in reputable peer-reviewed sources or by well-regarded academic presses. With that in mind, personally disliking academics' conclusions isn't on its own a good enough reason to disregard scholarship. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 20:17, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

I think the worst way to describe what is happening here is ignoring scholarship. Let's take a source and me for a malicious editor on WP. "Discovering indigenous science" Cited in Indigenous science for TEK a type. Respectable publication, well cited paper. But i can look through that paper and find anything i want, reword, add to the article and cite. I've just ignored the rest of the paper, and anyone the authors might cite for opposition to their views. Let's see, the authors don't like universalism so how about:

When Western modern science (WMS) is defined as universal it does displace revelation-based knowledge (i.e., creation science); however, it also displaces pragmatic local indigenous knowledge

and

it is possible that the universalist “gatekeeper” can be seen as increasingly problematic and even counter productive.

then reword to

“ the universalist gatekeeper can be seen as problematic because it excludes both indigenous science and creation science ”

How much scholarship have i ignored there? Even if i just included a faithful representation of the source in opposing universalism i've probably ignored some philosophy of science, history of science, and maybe a couple scientists.

The paper tells me where the term "Indigenous Science" comes from and it's "Science education in a multiscience perspective". Masakata Ogawa tells me he was influence by Lucien Lévy-Bruhl and quotes him. Lévy-Bruhl wrote a book called How Natives Think in 1910 and divided the world into two mindsets "primitive" and "modern". What could i do with that and how much scholarship would be ignored there?

Those might be extreme examples—or maybe not—and might or might not be noticed by a page watcher. But it doesn't even really need to be done intentionally. Just incautiously like by the WikiED'ers at TEK. Just pick something, cut-and-paste, quote part and reworde part. There's a lot of things you can do with good sources, within policy, to make bad content and ignore scholarship. Yeah, i don't like it. fiveby(zero) 06:48, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

To me this seems more like an NPOV issue than a FRINGE issue. As Hydrangeans said, if these fields are discussed in reliable sources (and they are) then we can and should have articles. The problem is that "decolonisation of X" is often a fig leaf for tearing X to shreds, and we shouldn't write our articles from that kind of "in-universe" perspective. Based on a glance at the first couple of articles mentioned, it looks like they lean that way, but this isn't my field so I don't think I'm the one to edit it. As for the comment that Indigenous peoples have been victims of colonisation while UFO believers have not: Perhaps that's why university presses give them a pass, but we shouldn't. One's level of privilege has zero bearing on the validity of their ontology. If a Holocaust survivor tells me climate change is a government hoax, they are wrong. We would thus be taking sides with an article, say, on "Survivors' views of climate change" that reports uncritically that climate change is an anti-Zionist scheme to ruin Israel, or whatever. WeirdNAnnoyed (talk) 11:30, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I would say the whole talk of "other ways of knowing", "data that cannot be collected by science" and this "taking into account the suffering and exploitation, past and present, of certain peoples while evaluating their epistemologies" are very much FRINGE. Although, NPOV and FRINGE are very closely related, so it's probably both. VdSV9•♫ 12:51, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

As someone who has worked as a science professor at a university with a strong science-studies community, I can confidently say it is not at all fringe in the science studies and postcolonial studies disciplines. A good chunk of those scholars (maybe not a majority, but a very large minority) are pushing right-wing denialism of science and expertise (perhaps unintentionally) by dressing it up in left-wing tropes like decolonisation, queer liberation, and so on. "Other ways of knowing" is to the Frantz Fanon set what "do your own research" is to the Alex Jones set...trust your gut, They^TM are lying to you. If a sizable minority of scholars holds a certain view, then by definition it can't be WP:FRINGE even if it's demonstrably wrong. So we can have articles on these subjects, but we shouldn't give them false balance because, you know, reality exists. WeirdNAnnoyed (talk) 20:41, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

And what is your source for your extraordinary claim about "A good chunk of those scholars"? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:47, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

The very scholars who write about this stuff very often characterize them as "marginalized", and "outside of mainstream science" (often using the misnomer "Western science"). Those fall very much in the definition of fringe (marginal happens to be synonymous). VdSV9•♫ 18:12, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Fiveby's comment above that talk of new "epistemologies, ontologies, and methodologies" is nonsense. And science-bashing is extremely harmful (having probably resulted in hundreds of thousands of extra deaths from Covid in the US). But I think that there is an inherent difference between #4 and #1-3 in Fiveby's list. Certain indigenous medical practices, while not science-based, are based on centuries of observation and experience. In modern times, scientists and pharmaceutical companies have studied some of them in a rigorous, scientific way and found that they could use them as a basis for developing new, safe, and effective medicines. For example Tu Youyou was awarded the 2015 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine for (according to her Wikipedia BLP) discovering artemisinin [...] and dihydroartemisinin, used to treat malaria, a breakthrough in twentieth-century tropical medicine, saving millions of lives in South China, Southeast Asia, Africa, and South America. The Wikipedia article goes on to describe how she achieved this by studying a vast number of traditional Chinese medicines, finally finding two that were the basis of the medical breakthrough.

It is also possible that a folk medical practice that's still followed in some parts of the world could be harmless and somewhat effective for some people, although inferior to the best modern medicine. People who are impoverished might not have access to the latter, in which case such a folk practice is better than nothing. (This is the viewpoint, for example, of the Cuban Ministry of Health, due to the extreme scarcity of certain imported pharmaceuticals due to the US embargo.)

Because of these two possibilities, there is an inherent difference between folk knowledge and paranormal belief, superstition, and science-bashing. NightHeron (talk) 14:12, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I think artemisinin is like one in the ten thousand TCM remedies that turned out to have promise, so perhaps isn't a representative example. Bon courage (talk) 14:22, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Sure, but has there ever been a medical breakthrough and a Nobel Prize for saving millions of lives that resulted from studying ten thousand superstitions or paranormal beliefs? NightHeron (talk) 14:32, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

TCM beliefs didn't contribute to artemisinin's discovery... Artemisinin just happened to be among the compounds whose effects had traditionally been ascribed to a fundamentally faulty mechanistic framework (or, maybe more likely, were retconned into a pseudo-traditionalist system by Maoists). JoelleJay (talk) 02:20, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

The artemisinin discovery story has also been heavily propagandized to promote TCM. I'm skeptical there was any real link between the purported TCM uses of the parent decoction and the antimalarial properties of its active compound. JoelleJay (talk) 02:05, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Your first paragraph summed up my thoughts too. The one issue I've run into IRL with this is that the lines between historical/folk knowledge/alternative ways of knowing and transitioning to science-bashing is a very thin line that is easy to cross. This often comes up at land-grant universities nowadays and especially can get contentious and difficult to navigate at those meetings, especially when you have groups of scientists and non-scientists involved.

It's a good thing if the focus is on historical preservation of culture, finding accounts of plants to test in the current-day, etc., but I have seen talks where people try to label it Western vs. Indigenous ways of knowing that quickly gets into trouble. Labeling it "Western" science in that context, especially with dashes of colonialism mentioned in order to dismiss what is just simply science, can be a red flag. That starts to invoke a sort of special pleading to avoid the formal scientific process that we often see in other fringe topics. That's what it can easily become if a particular group is given "privileged" status in their knowledge even if that knowledge would violate something as simple as correlation ≠ causation.

So I'm glad this has been brought up because we probably do need to keep a guardrail in mind for the above, but as others have mentioned, it's a bit of a walled garden topic. I can see challenges for us editors in terms of NPOV when it's advocates primarily publishing on the topic. KoA (talk) 15:14, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

So, science has "legitimized other knowledge systems for indigenous peoples" in one case. Wikipedia cannot do that unless science does it before. --Hob Gadling (talk)

The more I think about it, the more I think we should merge traditional ecological knowledge and traditional knowledge, and probably indigenous science too. They are all the same basic topic as far as I can tell, and having it in one place will make it easier to keep an eye on so it doesn't accumulate stuff from the fringey end of this idea. Crossroads ^-talk- 16:41, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

It is an interesting idea... but I think the merge may be a pretty heavy lift as the articles are all strikingly different. Just to play devil's advocate, I think that there is a lot more to say about these concepts within the context of ecology since the idea of working with indigenous stakeholders has a much longer history in that discipline. jps (talk) 17:11, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Crossroads not sure merges are a good idea. I'm thinking TEK came from resource managers and tribes/First Nations in the 80's? I don't know about "traditional knowledge" as a concept, maybe earlier? "Indigenous Science" often points to TEK, but it came from educators in the late '90s. TEK is certainly applied in education, and likewise "Indigenous Science" to promote policy decisions. I'm having a difficult time when the sources start merging the two and not telling me exactly what they mean. fiveby(zero) 02:22, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Traditional knowledge and traditional ecological knowledge are not exactly the same thing. TK may incorporate TEK but incorporates things outside of Indigenous views on the natural environment (wildlife and the land). Look at Inuit Qaujimajatuqangit, while incorporating Avatittinnik Kamatsiarniq (respect and care for the land, animals and the environment) one of the major aspects is Inuuqatigiitsiarniq (respecting others, relationships and caring for people) and most of the others are more than just a narrow focus on environmental concerns. CambridgeBayWeather (solidly non-human), Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 19:45, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not opposed to merging indigenous science into TK, but TEK is a distinct term, and while being a subset of TK, it has received substantial scholarly attention on its own. The article being in a poor state is not a reason to merge. Kowal2701 (talk) 22:12, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I just read through traditional ecological knowledge and I don't see the WP:FRINGE problem. Can someone explain what the problem is with reference to the current text? jps (talk) 14:22, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

The opening image that dichotomizes and essentializes TEK and "Western" science as "holistic" and "reductionist" respectively seems pretty sketchy. There's also a lot of overly long quotes and descriptions of examples/case studies, and it's somewhat disorganized. Crossroads ^-talk- 16:47, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! That image needed to go, agreed. I found one on Commons that looked better to me. Poorly accounted-for, so we might want to contact the Forest Peoples Programme to see if they have information about the event that occurred in 2011 that we could add as a citation (although, vainly, I think the caption I wrote is relatively uncontroversial). jps (talk) 17:06, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I have started the process of copyediting. There are issues here with undergraditis writing with value-judgements and dated jargon. The temptation of the prior authors (and some of the older sources, even) to slip into the false dichotomy between "western science" and "noble savage" seems particularly acute. Doing a quick search for the word "western" yielded some places where rewording was possible. jps (talk) 17:25, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I did a little more work on cleaning up problematic writing. This is definitely one of those cases where the poor quality of writing by assigned students was dragging down the content. However, most of what was included was fine. It's just really, really bad writing. jps (talk) 01:22, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Okay, I think I'm done with my copyedit. I did not remove any sources. I pared down a lot of the unnecessary text. The page was a victim of undergraditis and might be a good object lesson for what happens when half a dozen classes get a hold of an article and let unprepared college students just add text in the hopes of meeting arbitrary word counts. One thing that probably needs emphasizing more with our WikiEdu collabs is that less is more, brevity is the soul of wit, vigorous writing is concise, etc. jps (talk) 15:20, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Taking hatchet to sources, rv anything where you object. Let me know if you saw any sources which should be included be aren't. fiveby(zero) 16:29, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

I trust your judgement. jps (talk) 16:43, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Lucien Lévy-Bruhl (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

I'm leaving the article alone because Tollefsen tells me there is some discussion about anomalies being a signal to the reader and might be a bad thing to remove them. fiveby(zero) 15:46, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure what to make of that. Regardless, bad content (either false or undue) should still be removed. Crossroads ^-talk- 21:21, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Was just angry about the "ignoring scholarship" comments. I can sure go add to his article that he was an armchair anthropologist who never went into the field and based everything on testimony of missionaries. And:

Levy-Bruhl had imputed to Africans a certain lack of mental skills and he had suggested that such a lack was due to the fact that they were black. Thus, his conclusion held that black people were incapable of logical and coherent thought. Instead, they tended to wallow in contradictions and could not distinguish between what he called the supernatural and reality.

— [1]

Then start in on Indigenous science, all within P&G, because i don't like it. fiveby(zero) 13:02, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

• This discussion has been listed at WikiProject Environment, WikiProject Indigenous peoples of the Americas, WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America, WikiProject Countering systemic bias, and WikiProject Discrimination. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 00:49, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

References

• Tollefsen, Deborah Perron Tollefsen (2009). "Wikipedia and the Epistemology of Testimony". Epistem. 6 (1). Cambridge University Press: 8–24.
• Segal, Robert A. (2007). "Jung and Lévy-Bruhl". Journal of Analytical Psychology. 52: 635–658.

Intuition and animism at the article Traditional knowledge

Some of the material I had removed from Traditional knowledge around the time I opened this thread has been reverted back into the article by the editor who added it originally. The text claims, These systems of knowledge are often guided by intuition, and generally based on accumulations of empirical observation and on interaction with the environment. and, as before, cites this 2012 paper, which on Google Scholar only got 16 cites in well over a decade (way less than many other similarly aged papers on TK). The paper includes something called "revealed knowledge" in IK/TK, and explicitly supports animism, supernaturalism, and misuses of concepts like "expanded" consciousness and quantum entanglement:

• Intuition, particularly in its transrational form, refers to knowing without knowing how you came to know (Bernstein, 2005; see also Barrett, in press). It goes beyond patterned understandings based on experience (for example, those small intuitive leaps an experienced practitioner might make when encountering a new problem to solve) to include insights that in some cases transcend time (McCraty et al, 2004) and physical location (e.g. a mother who knows her child is hurt even when he may be in another country). To distinguish this kind of intuition from intuition based primarily on experience, we use the term transrational intuition throughout the rest of this paper. Such transrational intuitions may come through dreams, visions, gut feelings, a sudden word or phrase that pops into one's head, a "felt sense" or an unexplainable awareness of the "right" answer, or way to proceed. Transrational forms of intuition are the result of an expanded consciousness, and are accessible to all humans regardless of cultural background. They are also in alignment with many of the spiritual aspects of Indigenous knowledges. However, since they “fall outside the pale of what professional cultures are willing to accept” they are often dismissed

• Transrational forms of intuition and animism are linked....An animist ontology supports a relational interaction with those who are not human, and acknowledges that plants, animals, and spirits exist in communicative relationship with humans. Insights received often take the form of dreams, visions, a felt sense, and so forth – ways of knowing which in Eurocentric traditions, are generally attributed to a brilliant human mind (Snyder, cited by Taylor, 2005), a pathology (Vaughn & Walsh, 2000), or a higher power (e.g. Abell, 1994). From an animist perspective, these insights are contributed from non-human “persons” with whom one is in relation (Harvey, 2006a; Stuckey, 2010) and are offered to humans who have the ability, and are open, to receiving them.

• The intermingling of learned knowledge with other forms of knowing reflects the existence of a realm of knowledge and knowing well beyond conscious thought – an idea which is well accepted in many knowledge traditions (Meyer, 2008). Recent theorizing in the areas of, human consciousness, quantum entanglement, spiritual knowing and intuition (e.g. Bradley, 2007; Hart et al., 2000; Sinclair, 2011) is deepening understandings of forms of knowing that are not fully premised on rational analysis and observable phenomena.

I think this sort of thing is very clearly fringe.

The editor also cited this paper this time, which only mentions "intuitive" briefly in passing.

In sum, I don't think the idea that knowledge based on intuition, let alone "transrational" intuition, is something mainstream belongs in Wikipedia at all. Crossroads ^-talk- 01:25, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

There is a tremendous amount of literature here, coming from multiple disciplines, and many of the authors are not very careful with what they say or how they describe 'knowledge'. It seems to me those papers coming from post-colonial studies and the field of education are the worst and most incautious. This 2021 literature review has been very helpful for me in organizing the concepts and Fikret Berkes' Sacred Ecology is excellent for Traditional ecological knowledge.

At heart much of this is political and authors are seemingly willing to make outlandish and unsupported statements in order to promote their views. In my opinion everything here, despite publication within academic journals, should be treated as merely political screeds and undue for inclusion until demonstrated otherwise. Hopefully a careful author such as Berkes can be found for TK/IK. fiveby(zero) 12:07, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

One thing that may help here with 'animism' is that is clearly within the domain of TEK. Berkes does cover animism so you could shunt all that content over to the TEK article and i'll make sure that it follows the WP:BESTSOURCES policy. In fact anything connected to the land people live on or or how people interact with it should be primarily described in the TEK article. fiveby(zero) 12:24, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

The editor also added this source to support their claim about intuition. But here too are multiple problems - this source is 17 years old and engages in an essentialized dichotomy between "Eurocentric" and indigenous knowledge (a claim already identified above as outdated and inaccurate), attributes intuition to science as well, intuition is only a minor point, and makes some claims that legitimize things that are clearly fringe like This holistic spiritual power expands the sources of data for IWLN to include, for instance, dreams, visions, and intuitions.... Some of these data (observations and images) are collected systematically in, for example, vision quests, fasting, smudging, prayer, sweat lodges, and various ceremonies.

In any case, based on what I've read, I've not seen intuition mentioned much in recent sources on the mainstream academic use of indigenous knowledge, and certainly not supporting its WP:UNDUE emphasis in the lead (and not in the body, against guidelines). I've removed the claim again and pointed the editor here. Crossroads ^-talk- 20:38, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Masakata Ogawa, the coauthor on that paper, is the science educator i mentioned above. First to use the term indigenous science and based on the ideas of Lévy-Bruhl. I had a source for Lévy-Bruhl's popularity in education in the '70s through the '90s and will need to find it again. I'd really like to describe the origin here along the lines of some kind of race realism and there are probably sources available to do something like that. It probably wouldn't be a fair or neutral way to approach the topic tho. Just need to find time to work on the articles. fiveby(zero) 21:01, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I mean if that's the history, then so be it - I support adding it. I myself have certainly noticed that ethnic/racial essentialism and 'noble savage' tropes often crop up in this discourse, with some people basically just taking racist stereotypes and inverting the polarity of which traits are considered good and bad. At least we have more recent sources with a more moderate and reasonable take on things, as you've noted. Crossroads ^-talk- 21:16, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

And Kowal2701 just reverted my changes and citation of newer review sources in favor of the problematic sources described above. Kowal2701, the discussion is here, at a public noticeboard; per WP:MULTI, we are not going to have multiple places talking about the same thing or have it somewhere less visible like an article talk page. Also, per WP:ONUS, you need to get consensus to include these claims about "intuition" and "holistic" before they would be kept. Crossroads ^-talk- 21:25, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

See Talk:Traditional knowledge#November 2024. WP:AGF Kowal2701 (talk) 21:27, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I am AGF. As I stated there, aside from the first source in that heading you opened, which only mentions intuition and holism in passing, all of these sources are quite old, which has been identified above as an issue in this research field. Per WP:MULTI, this should be discussed in one place, and here is better since there are more eyes and editors with experience with this. Crossroads ^-talk- 21:34, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

P.S. Looking into one of the authors (Barrett), I also found out about #Intuitive Interspecies Communication (IIC), described in that heading below. Crossroads ^-talk- 03:35, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Reposting here from Talk: Traditional knowledge#November 2024

Hi @Crossroads, I agree that sentence isn't good and needs to be changed. The purpose of that sentence is to explain the epistemological methods rather than to give another definition. Sources comparing TK with modern science say it is intuitive and holistic, while modern science is reductionistic and analytical. I appreciate your concern over fringe implications, that was not what I was trying to do.

• Modern science favors analytical and reductionist methods, whereas, the traditional knowledge is towards intuitive and holistic view. [2]
• TEK has been accounted as intuitive and holistic as opposed to the pre dominantly analytical-reductionist character of Western science. [3]
• From the brief examples given above, it appears that by the standards of the scientific approach, TEK more closely resembles science than lay-knowledge. However, some real differences exist between TEK and science in that non-test able phenomena such as intuition and beliefs, as well as inter-generational and personal observations, are components ofknowledge in TEK. [4]
• TEK is holistic; Western science is reductionist. Western science deliberately breaks down data into smaller elements to understand whole and complex phenomena. For TEK, all elements of matter are viewed as interconnected and cannot be understood in isolation. • • • • TEK is intuitive in its mode of thinking; Western science is analytical. Intuitive thought emphasizes emotional involvement and subjective certainty of understanding. Analytical thought emphasizes abstract reasoning and the need to separate oneself from that being observed and to learn about it through various replicable measurements. [5]
• Western science favours analytical and reductionist methods as opposed to the more intuitive and holistic view often found in traditional knowledge. [6]

(@Crossroads you may want to move your comment under here) Kowal2701 (talk) 21:37, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Instead of looking for sources to justify certain terms, you should instead look at recent, reputable reviews and see how they describe the topic, like this one. This sort of essentialized dichotomy is not favored more recently. The sources you cite here are (after the first one) from 2008, 2002, 1992, and 2006 respectively, all over 15 years old. And the first one doesn't really justify these descriptors much, and in any case is just one paper in Futures, not a review. Fiveby, others, what do you think of these descriptors - should they be added? And also, why aren't they in the body? Even if they are used, it should be clearly delineated why the use of intuition and holism is academically justified; vague gestures towards colonialism or spirituality definitely don't explain why traditional knowledge should be used in environmental management, for example. Crossroads ^-talk- 21:50, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

When I first researched this I wasn't looking for sources to justify certain terms. My impression is that there is academic consensus regarding this dating back to the 2000s, such that further research repeating the same points wasn't necessary. The 2023 source repeating this is evidence these terms haven't fallen out of favour for valid, substantial reasons. That source you've linked supports the holistic descriptor. I can't find more recent sources comparing TK with Western/modern science. The TK article is C-class and has practically no information directly on the epistemologies themselves. Kowal2701 (talk) 22:02, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Robert R. Redfield

• Robert R. Redfield (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

One of those COVID-19 cranks; an IP insists they know better than reliable sources do. --Hob Gadling (talk) 19:42, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Crusading at Arian controversy

Self-proclaimed expert using his own site/research to push that the orthodox perspective on this is Wrong. There's already been a trip to AN/I. Mangoe (talk) 17:42, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I would just take him to ANI againHemiauchenia (talk) 18:03, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#AndriesvN_and_Christian_theology_articles. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:22, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm sympathetic to his argument, in his own Talk Page, that the Wikipedia pages on the Arian Controversy are edited not by the world's leading scholars but primarily by people intending to defend the Church. The consensus of modern scholars and the consensus of the church are very different. However, I don't even know who the leading scholars in this are, and would take me a long time to try and figure out if this argument really has any weight to it. Having said that, I'm really surprised at how long this has been going on. Guy keeps referencing his own blog and ignoring policy, no matter how many times people explain to him he's not supposed to. Pretty obvious WP:NOTHERE in my book and should just get an indef block. He has been given enough chances. VdSV9•♫ 12:53, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Oxford Bibliographies entry "Son of God: The Nicene Era" has:

• Hanson, R. P. C. (1988). The Search for the Christian Doctrine of God: The Arian Controversy, 318–381. A long treatment of 4th-century Christology that reads like a sustained commentary on the major texts and issues of the Arian controversy. Masterful, balanced assessment of this crucial phase of the “Son of God” in Christian doctrine.
• Gregg, Robert C.; Groh, Dennis E. (1981). Early Arianism: A View of Salvation. A significant minority view on the Arian controversy, which argues that it was not so much a Christological controversy as a soteriological one...

if i'm reading the issue correctly. Neither currently cited. Like your looking for "leading scholars". fiveby(zero) 13:46, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Ancient Egyptian race controversy needs some input from other editors

There have been multiple lengthy discussions of the content in this article, and now an IP user involved since last year is suggesting use of information from a, and I quote, "TECHNICALLU UNPUBLISHED SOURCE". The arguments on that talk page are giving me a headache even thinking about it. Sirocco745 (talk) 05:11, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

adding to my watchlist EvergreenFir (talk) 05:27, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

ubpubliahed source ? I took ans cropped the image from the "source" that's all SamuelRoth79 (talk) 06:34, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

https://osf.io/ecwf3/download/?format=pdf

That is the source SamuelRoth79 (talk) 06:35, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

So what's wrong with that "source" ? SamuelRoth79 (talk) 06:36, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Look, as it stands, I myself am still collecting information on the reliability of Soy Keita in the field of Egyptology. Until that is determined, the reliability of the source cannot fully be ascertained. Confirming the reliability of a source or the source's author is an incredibly time consuming process, so much so that I don't even really know where to start here. Sirocco745 (talk) 07:02, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

He is an anthropologist and even he is sited in the article. Just not the picture of the data. The information YES SamuelRoth79 (talk) 07:04, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

just read about him in the article, I will copy and paste what is written for you. SamuelRoth79 (talk) 07:09, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

n 2010 Hawass et al. undertook detailed anthropological, radiological, and genetic studies as part of the King Tutankhamun Family Project. The objectives included attempting to determine familial relationships among 11 royal mummies of the New Kingdom, as well to research for pathological features including potential inherited disorders and infectious diseases. In 2022, S.O.Y. Keita analysed 8 Short Tandem loci (STR) data published as part of these studies by Hawass et al., using an algorithm that only has three choices: Eurasians, sub-Saharan Africans, and East Asians. Using these three options, Keita concluded that the majority of the samples, which included the genetic remains of Tutankhamun, showed a population "affinity with "sub-Saharan" Africans in one affinity analysis". However, Keita cautioned that this does not mean that the royal mummies "lacked other affiliations" which he argued had been obscured in typological thinking. Keita further added that different "data and algorithms might give different results" which reflects the complexity of biological heritage and the associated interpretation.

According to historian William Stiebling and archaeologist Susan N. Helft, conflicting DNA analysis conducted by different research teams on ancient Egyptians such as the Amarna royal mummies, which included the remains of Tutankhamun, has led to a lack of consensus on the genetic makeup of the ancient Egyptians and their geographic origins.

Cleopatra SamuelRoth79 (talk) 07:11, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Okay, can you please explain why the screenshot of the table should be included? I am satisfied with Keita's reliability, but per WP:ONUS, "while information must be verifiable for inclusion in an article, not all verifiable information must be included. Consensus may determine that certain information does not improve an article, and other policies may indicate that the material is inappropriate. Such information should be omitted or presented instead in a different article. The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content."

You have yet to provide a coherent reason for why adding this table is a constructive edit. This whole discussion is a pain in the butt for me to understand because I do not understand your angle here. You have presented an edit you want to make, but you have not presented a reason. As such, I cannot assess the value you perceive in the table against Wikipedia's interpretation of value.

In short, my brain hurts trying to understand all of this qwq Sirocco745 (talk) 07:30, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

okay, my argument is that including the table isn't a constructive edit. my reasons why are because:

- it disrupts the flow of the article

- the information found in the table has already been put into the article

- unpublished studies cannot be used as a source

What is your argument? Sirocco745 (talk) 07:42, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I would additionally like to add that the spreadsheet SamuelRoth79 wants included, is completely unprofessional and made in Microsoft Excel, unlike the other data charts/diagrams from studies that are incorporated into the article. The others included are professional genetics models on ADMIXTURE, PCA, F_ST ...etc and these illustrations are actually published in authentic scientific journals dealing with ancient DNA. This obscure table should be completely excluded, on top of it being highly questionable by not being peer reviewed via actual or other scientists/geneticists involved in Paleogenomics & Archaeogenetics. Neo the Enlightened One (talk) 08:18, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

becauae you have all the data of the 2017 Egyptians were whiter than today. Due to the "slave trade". The one that never happened through Egypt. SamuelRoth79 (talk) 10:00, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

That isn't exactly a reason. What value does the table add to the Wikipedia article from a content perspective? Sirocco745 (talk) 10:02, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

An admin needs to handle this case ASAP: we're not obliged to host them babbling about people groups getting "whiter" amid other nonsense. Remsense ‥ 论 10:04, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

The only good reason this discussion has gone on this long is because SamuelRoh79 never made any sort of point before their last few edits. No point means nothing to understand, and you can't make a case against something without understanding the other side. Truth be told, I still don't understand Samuel's point. Sirocco745 (talk) 10:10, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Forgive me, I'm new to technology. Editing internet encyclopedia is a new interest. I should have put all the information in on the picture I added. SamuelRoth79 (talk) 10:12, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

The anonymous IP user has been spamming many Talk pages with the same fringe DNA Tribes material, and the unpublished/not peer reviewed data from PopAffiliator. They were attempting to push a POV here: Talk:Bantu peoples#We've Gotten It All Wrong, the individual is also likely involved on this other page on multiple topics: Talk:Genetic history of Egypt#Inclusion Of The Study By DNA Tribes, it's obvious this is the same person. Neo the Enlightened One (talk) 06:55, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

no. This is not DNA tribes. This is a published peer reviewed article article using the data from the JAMA article on the Amarna mummies and Ramses III. This photo will get published. I guarantee you. Even if I have to fight tooth and nail SamuelRoth79 (talk) 06:59, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

and NO I am not the same person. I am white rich JEW SamuelRoth79 (talk) 07:01, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Any administrators handy? We have an editor walking around here with a sign that says “Please block me” in big bright letters. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 08:43, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I would ask a reliable/respected Wikipedian for a neutral third party perspective take on this mess, but I don't think I have enough experience or credit to my name for that. Worth a shot though. @Dr vulpes, would it be alright if you gave this a quick peek? Sirocco745 (talk) 09:23, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

No it was not reviewed by professional geneticists and published authentically, the print originally comes from here: https://osf.io/preprints/osf/ecwf3, with the picture you screenshotted being from a Google Docs https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yhTOR3PZm4v-dr5ODtv28i-Ry25GFVEvrLRuVTG0IGE/edit?gid=1243251660#gid=1243251660 Neo the Enlightened One (talk) 08:23, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

you already have this information on your article. You know that right? It's just the picture SamuelRoth79 (talk) 09:57, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

What's on the article actually comes from a review of material in 2022, not from that so called "source" above, as it did not meet Wikipedia's criteria.

Here's where: Page 108, 'IDEAS ABOUT “RACE” IN NILE VALLEY HISTORIES: A CONSIDERATION OF “RACIAL” PARADIGMS IN RECENT PRESENTATIONS ON NILE VALLEY AFRICA, FROM “BLACK PHARAOHS” TO MUMMY GENOMES '

"Analysis of the short tandem repeat (STR) data published on Ramesses III and the Amarna ancient royal family (including Tutankhamun) showed a majority to have an affinity with “sub-Saharan” Africans in one affinity analysis,[102] which does not mean that they lacked other affiliations-an important point that typological thinking obscures. (Also, different data and algorithms might give different results, which would illustrate the complexity of biological heritage and its interpretation.) This analysis was performed using an available algorithm[103] that unfortunately only has three choices: Eurasians, sub-Saharan Africans, and East Asians-the best-known received racial schema by another name, but it still gets used; this is problematic when it is local populations that constitute the historical reality of interactions. One can imagine a database with numerous global local populations.“

https://egyptianexpedition.org/articles/ideas-about-race-in-nile-valley-histories-a-consideration-of-racial-paradigms-in-recent-presentations-on-nile-valley-africa-from-black-pharaohs/

SOY Keita in the above, makes clarifications on the unpublished report about the affinity analysis, and he references a 2011 publication by the PopAffiliator algorithm creator (Luisa Pereira) showing what regions are in the PopAffiliator program, and what it actually does, and the number of loci needed, that's why its so fringey, you can't just use 8 STR and it excludes important regions: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00414-010-0472-2 Neo the Enlightened One (talk) 10:27, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Please see this on PopAffiliator's geographic regions, 'Eurasians' is only meaning Europeans, while 'sub-Saharan Africans' and 'East Asians' incorporates multiple human population groups whom are unrelated to each other, but the important local populations as SOY Keita was saying are not included, and thus he rightfully deemed it problematic: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/PopAffiliator_geographic_regions.jpg Neo the Enlightened One (talk) 10:40, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Clearing things up

Since the above messages are an absolute mess to read through, I'm going to summarize what's happened in the past 24 hours for anyone still scratching their heads. @SamuelRoth79 has been trying to add a table displaying genetic distribution for Amarna mummies to the Ancient Egyptian race controversy page. The information comes from a DNA Tribes report, a source which the community has deemed unreliable. See this Archive thread for more information. SamuelRoth79 got this information from this POV-pusher IP editor, who has made multiple attempts to dispute mainstream consensus on a variety of race-related articles with DNA Tribes-sourced material. Upon seeing the image added to the article, I took a fringe theories approach and removed it. SamuelRoth79 then proceeded to call me racist, which genuinely surprised me and made me do a bit of a double take. After that, I added this current topic to the noticeboard to draw more attention from more experienced editors than myself to the situation because I was unsure on how to proceed.

The above thread can be summed up as "a few editors dissect the source while SamuelRoth79 makes nonsensical statements with big time gaps." I still believe they made their edits in good faith and thought they were genuinely trying to improve the article, so I must emphasize this is not an attack thread. However @SamuelRoth79, I do have some words of wisdom for you. Articles related to racial heritage and genetics are often designated as contenious topics, and all content that goes against mainstream consensus is to be treated as fringe theories. Please read up on Wikipedia's guidelines and policies, it is invaluable to know even the gist of them.

Lastly, while not required, an apology for calling me a racist would be greatly appreciated. Reading that almost gave me a heart attack (figuratively) because I could not tell if the comment was a simple attack or your genuine belief. Sirocco745 (talk) 00:00, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

If you took it that I called you a racist. Than I didn't mean it. Obviously I don't even know you. But you probably don't even know much about this polémique. That has been an intellectual debate for 200 years now. And now with DNA. We have people who are purposefully using DNA samples from a random cemetery in northern Egypt and saying this represents all of Egypt, whe. We already have the DNA samples of the 18th dynasty. So if you are new to this s debate. Than I would hope you would understand why this information is critical. Black people, at least in my country go ballistic every time a cop accidentally kills a black man. They start tearing down statues, which they would have NEVER DONE in Ancient Egypt, destroying public property was the death penalty and history to them really mattered. So I think if their self esteem was raised a little bit. By the knowledge that they were the Ancient Egyptians, maybe not by ethnicity but by appearances and haplogroup matchs. They would behave a little differently. This DNA was NOT taken from DNA tribes. You keep saying that, are you not hearing me?? Thus data was taken by SOY Keita himself and run through his samples and it came back 93 percent sub Saharan African. The 18th dynasty, the RICH ONES , AND Ramses III. It is just a picture. It's not like I put a Hypnotic spell on it. SamuelRoth79 (talk) 00:26, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Look, I understand where you are coming from, but it's still not acceptable from a Wikipedia perspective. The lede of the article establishes immediately that:

Mainstream scholars reject the notion that Egypt was a "white" or "black" civilization; they maintain that applying modern notions of black or white races to ancient Egypt is anachronistic. In addition, scholars reject the notion – implicit in a black or white Egypt hypothesis – that ancient Egypt was racially homogeneous; instead, skin colour varied between the peoples of Lower Egypt, Upper Egypt, and Nubia, who rose to power in various eras of ancient Egypt.

WP:WEIGHT states that "mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources. Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight means articles should not give minority views or aspects as much of or as detailed a description as more widely held views or widely supported aspects."

The genetics table you are trying to add supports the idea that those at the very top of the Ancient Egyptian social hierarchy were predominantly African. Since this perspective does not align with Egyptology's mainstream consensus, adding the genetics table to the article would be to give undue importance to a "fringe theory", and I'm pretty sure we're both tired of hearing that term by now. Sirocco745 (talk) 00:47, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

that is the point. It's not a fringe theory. Do you really believe that? So do you believe they painted TutAnchAmun pitch black to represent the soil,? Do you not belong even your own eyes? SamuelRoth79 (talk) 02:22, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

ANI

I've made a post at ANI Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#SamuelRoth79_disruptive_editing_at_Ancient_Egyptian_race_controversy. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:35, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Blocked as NOTHERE basically. Doug Weller talk 08:46, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Precambrian chitons and another reports by Mark McMenamin

@Zhenghecaris: (contribs) is recently trying to create articles and add information from taxa described in "Deep Time Analysis: A Coherent View of the History of Life."[7] written by researcher Mark McMenamin. In this book, he claimed that there are Ediacaran fossils from Mexican site Clemente Formation, includes some surprising findings such as stem-chiton, aculiferan (Clementechiton and Korifogrammia), and trilobite-like organism (Palankiras). However, even through such finding should be important for evolutionary biology, searching google scholar about those findings only results researches by Mark McMenamin himself and almost no other studies. McMenamin himself is known from fringe therory such as the Triassic Kraken (hypothetical giant cephalopod around 30 m which hunted giant ichthyosaurs), and Near Eastern discovery of the New world before Columbus. In fact, there is no research other than McMenamin's own research regarding the occurrence of fossils from the Clemente Formation, and this may not be accepted by other researchers. However, I haven't found much concrete rebuttal to these studies, except that a 1999 study states that it is doubtful of biological origin and is much older than other Ediacaran Biota.[8] Zhenghecaris still adding information about Clemente Formation and taxa from there to articles like Kimberella, Chiton, and article of Clemente Formation itself. Also, this user doesn't seem to understand what sources are available, just that I told him like "I'm suspicious because this study was done by a researcher known for Triassic Kraken.", this user added about that to article even no sources claim like that. What especially problematic is claim in Evolution of the eye. McMenamin claimed that Clementechiton was the earliest animal with eyes, and in February User:Earthjewels830 (contribs) who seems to be a sockpuppet of McMemanin himself, added information about that even no other researchers accept. I deleted that cleim but Zhenghecaris reverted that, and this still remains in article. Zhenghecaris have some other problematic behaviors such as uploading copyvio images in Wikimedia Commons (see Commons:User_talk:Zhenghecaris), edit someone's image roughly to make it like what they claim (Commons:File:Zhenghecaris_with_setal_blades.jpg), and Complain rudely about a user's art style. I feel that something needs to be done about this user, but how should Wikipedia actually respond to these studies by McMenamin? (See also:Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Palaeontology#McMenamin's_taxa) Ta-tea-two-te-to (talk) 14:58, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I concur that McMenamin, despite being an employed professor, has crank tendencies and his research should be ignored unless cited by other researchers. Hemiauchenia (talk) 15:12, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

There are also similar examples I can provide. Muhammad Sadiq Malkani describes fossil taxa like dinosaurs from Pakistan, in the predatory journal SCIRP. Those are not considered as valid and article created are deleted, or redirected to List of informally named dinosaurs. Michael Wachtler[9] described things like Permian angiosperms in self-published books. Those are also not considered valid in Wikipedia. Now, all the taxa that McMenamin described from the Clemente Formation were described from the book he wrote. If you look at other chapters of the book (which is accessible via Wikipedia Library), you'll see unlikely things like a reconstruction of a slug-like creature with a crystal on its back... Ta-tea-two-te-to (talk) 15:15, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Publishing research in a book is unusual for Ediacaran paleontology. SO I think we should wait for confirmation from independent researchers before using those publications. This shows the risk of using primary research. Perhaps I wasted my time tracking down this book! Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:18, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I get the impression that McMenamin's research is largely ignored by other Ediacaran researchers looking at scholar citations. Hemiauchenia (talk) 22:15, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I also agree. First, largely unconvincing interpretations and arguments that nobody takes seriously are often going to judged too trivial to either spend time responding to and have a hard time getting judged worthwhile to print by reviewers, publishers, or both. Finally, if the researcher(s) making them are well repected, I suspect that many colleauges will also ignore them to avoid embarrassing the researcher by calling he or she a crank. The result is that many faultly and unconvincing interpretations and arguments die from being ignored instead of being refuted in print. This causes problems as there is no paper trail left explaining why they were judged to be bad and faulty by independent researchers. This can be seen in conference abstracts where interpretations and arguments appear never to be seen of heard from again. I understand this is one reason why "primary research" and conference abstracts are not used Wikipedia. Paul H. (talk) 01:36, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

User:Circulationsys (contribs) seems reverted addition of claim from 1999 study doubted affinity of Clemente fauna as "Inaccurate statement". As Earthjewels830, this user can be sockpuppet of Mark McMenamin himself as seeing their contributions. To be honest if that claim is inaccurate, I would like to see recent researches that supports biota from Clemente Formation (not by McMemanin himself, of course), rather than removing the existing claim... This user also added information about Clemente Formation in Shuram excursion. Ta-tea-two-te-to (talk) 02:31, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Shouldn't this also be at RSN? Doug Weller talk 09:24, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Okay I will not add information on taxa described by McMenamin. Zhenghecaris (talk) 22:59, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

AFD Sonoran University of Health Sciences

The naturopathic school Sonoran University of Health Sciences is formerly Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine & Health Sciences. The school's article was heavily edited by an employee and sourced to the school. This alt med school and others (National University of Natural Medicine, other naturopathic schools, Life University, Life Chiropractic College West) have few independent and reliable sources. @Jdcooper has nominated the Sonoran article for deletion. A recent article documents the high debt to earnings ratios of graduates of naturopathic, chiropractic, and Chinese medicine schools. Opinions are welcome on the AFD. ScienceFlyer (talk) 19:47, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Younger Dryas impact hypothesis again

A new editor has complained that the YDIH article is not objective at all, there isn't any semblance of an attempt to be objective either and is adding content claiming that people have used "unethical language" against YDIH proponents [10]. Additional eyes would be welcomed. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:39, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

An article opposing YDIH is cited in the wiki page about YDIH twenty four times, including the first sentence and majority of the first two paragraphs, while an article in support of YDIH from the same journal is relegated to the "Further reading" section without being mentioned in the body of the article. In fact, I found two Wikipedia:RS listed in Further Reading and Bibliography but not used to write the article.

That's in addition to the article having Wikipedia:WEASEL (2 examples: 1. calling a geologist a "YDIH proponent" without any source attribution for it right before presenting the geologist's view, but the same is not done for YDIH opponents; 2. article describes the "black mat" as claimed evidence of ancient forest fires, yet the cited source never uses the words "forest fires" but describes the black mats as something wholly different) and MOS:CONFUSE like choosing to use the words "extraterrestrial event" rather than "cosmic event" even though the latter term appears more frequently in the cited source.

I am happy to go into more details and come up with more examples, if need be. TurboSuperA+ (talk) 03:21, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Why Most Published Research Findings Are False

I've taken this to WP:NPOVN#How do we handle Pubpeer comments? The article seems fringe to me. Doug Weller talk 13:36, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Also just noticed the use of this paper at Scientific method#Relationship with statistics where it seems accepted. "This is described in a popular 2005 scientific paper "Why Most Published Research Findings Are False" by John Ioannidis, which is considered foundational to the field of metascience. " Doug Weller talk 13:39, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

A new Eugenics sidebar

• Template:Eugenics sidebar (edit | visual edit | history) · [[Talk:Template:Eugenics sidebar|Article talk]] (edit | history) · Watch

A Eugenics sidebar was created recently and may be of interest to editors here. Llll5032 (talk) 20:57, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

• I recommend that clear inclusion criteria be worked out on the template talk page. One general problem with sidebars structured like this, with several subtopics and controversial aspects, is that without well-defined and agreed upon inclusion/exclusion criteria, they tend to continually attract tangential cruft with questionable relevance to other distantly related articles, and become overly conspicuous when applied to such tangential articles. Then, other well-intentioned editors slap them on every article or section mentioning Eugenics (or whatever the navbox/sidebar subject is), which further distorts with undue visual/thematic emphasis, with little regards to WP:NAVBOX and WP:NAV guidelines. I note for instance the article Henry Fairfield Osborn is both in and bares the template: but is notably (thankfully) not in {{Paleontology}}. This could be construed as saying eugenics was a more significant aspect of his life and career paleontology, even though it only has a single paragraph in his article. And Charles Davenport now has two conspicuous sidebars about Eugenics, which looks rather clunky. I hate to image a future where every article is cluttered with a dozen sidebars each competing for the reader's limited attention. {{Alternative medicine sidebar}} is an example of one of the most egregious garbage bins of mish mash that users seem to relish stuffing and slapping on to any biography associated with any one of the dregs of detritus therein, almost as a badge of shame. Note how {{History of baseball}} is not tagged onto every person who has played baseball, nor is {{Evolution sidebar}} slapped on every evolutionary biologist biography. {{Alt-right footer}} is another controversial grab bag with nebulous to nil inclusion criteria, but at least it is less conspicuous as a collapsible footer. In general, with navboxes, fewer, tightly-interlinked subjects are preferable.--Animalparty! (talk) 01:14, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  I wouldn't necessarily take the length of coverage on Wikipedia as indicative of whether a certain aspect particularly significant in regards to a person's life. Henry Fairfield Osborn has a complex legacy both inside and outside paleontology. Henry Fairfield Osborn: Race and the Search for the Origins of Man is a book basically entirely dedicated to his views about race and related topics, rather than about his palaeontological contributions (that said, I don't think that eugenics was the overridingly important aspect of Osborn's life, with another book An Agenda for Antiquity: Henry Fairfield Osborn and Vertebrate Palaeontology at the American Museum of Natural History, 1890-1935 about his work at the AMNH). Hemiauchenia (talk) 01:36, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks for the suggestion, @Animalparty. I agree in the case of Osborn and have removed the template. Besides, including him might have readers click the hyperlink while confusing its target with Frederick Osborn. Biohistorian15 (talk) 19:55, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Lumping in, say, preimplantation genetic diagnosis with racial policy of Nazi Germany seems likely to lead to POV issues, and this is even before we get into BLPs getting roped in. I don't think we need this and that it can be deleted. Crossroads ^-talk- 21:45, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree. Seems likely to generate more heat than light. Generalrelative (talk) 00:32, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Please click on the link to see that this is no longer being done at all. The sidebar has been reduced to its bare essentials. Biohistorian15 (talk) 11:06, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Cultural Marxism (disambiguation)

There is discussion about the recently created disambiguation page for Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory and Marxist cultural analysis that may be of interest to this noticeboard. See the disambiguation talk page for details. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:47, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Climate stuff

Possibly readers of this board may want to weigh in on two discussions at Talk:William Happer. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 12:34, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Timeline of UFO investigations and public disclosure

Timeline of UFO investigations and public disclosure (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Also a question from Gronk Oz here about lists of articles for watch-listing. fiveby(zero) 13:16, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

This is a timeline of civilian and governmental efforts in investigating and disclosing the nature and presence of unidentified flying objects (UFOs), also known as unidentified anomalous phenomena (UAPs). It includes important publications and public events and also institutional countermeasures against the UFO disclosure process. For starters, the lead pushes a conspiratorial viewpoint in Wikipedia's voice. - LuckyLouie (talk) 13:56, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

The title is problematic, inviting editors to freely mix real-world things with fringelore. Timeline of UFOlogy might stand a chance of being notable. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 14:37, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

thanks for bringing this to our attention.Sgerbic (talk) 16:39, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

What is the inclusion criteria for items on this list? Seems very arbitrary at present, e.g. whatever the article creator thinks is relevant. - LuckyLouie (talk) 19:47, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I WP:BOLDly moved it to Timeline of UFOs. We may need to think about how it might work with the already extant List of UFO sightings. jps (talk) 17:48, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

The List of UFO sightings is a timeline. What is the case for needing both articles? Sgerbic (talk) 19:50, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Ahhh I see, the Timeline of UFO's includes whatever the editor who wrote this thinks is important to UFO history, heavy on the Elizondo mentions. I'm not so sure about this, but leave this to you as I have pizza to eat. Sgerbic (talk) 19:53, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

This is stopgap meant to address the WP:PROFRINGE implications of the previous title. I *might* be able to see a case for having a separate timeline given that there have been some remarkably interesting points of heady interest, lack of interest, alien autopsy videos promoted, and the like, but am not quite convinced yet. jps (talk) 00:26, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Any day now Sgerbic (talk) 02:33, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

You said it. There is room for a competent academic to write the definitive history on this subject, but it hasn't happened yet. Probably because the endeavor is so exhausting. jps (talk) 13:57, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

The article arbitrarily combines non-notable books and films with content contained in List of reported UFO sightings, UFO conspiracy theories, and Investigation of UFO reports by the United States government. I'm not sure what this article accomplishes other than to be a WP:POVFORK of existing content. - LuckyLouie (talk) 14:21, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm done with my pizza and am taking another look as the editor keeps beefing up the article with more and more dates. What I'm concerned with is this arbitrary submission of non-notable events based on the unknown criteria of this specific editor. For example this one "2024 October - The first Global Disclosure Day event was launched by the New Paradigm Institute" what is notable about this? Global Disclosure Day isn't notable, the New Paradigm Institute isn't notable and the citation is leading to a website for this Paradigm Institute, which isn't notable. So who is responsible for including these dates? Okay, let me go look at the talk page for this article, we should be having this conversation there. Sgerbic (talk) 18:13, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

There was no talk page - creating it now. Sgerbic (talk) 18:14, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

I have posted on that brand new talk page my concerns. I respectfully suggest that any future conversations about the article be taken to that talk page. Sgerbic (talk) 18:37, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Could use somebody who's more experienced with identifying good sources vs bad within this topic. Paging @User:Feoffer. - LuckyLouie (talk) 21:13, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Oh no not the Brit! They spell everything wrong! Sgerbic (talk) 22:20, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• Robert Hastings (ufologist) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) ...similar NPOV problems by the same editor. Fixed for the moment. - LuckyLouie (talk) 18:49, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

I wonder if this was based on that timeline that has been circulating for a while and Michael Shellenberger included as an annex in his "testimony" (page 36 onwards on the pdf) to the US Congress this wednesday. Maybe it's a coincidence. VdSV9•♫ 13:48, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Not related, but that's an incredible timeline. Most of the entries may never make it to Wikipedia because of the policies here. VaudevillianScientist (talk) 03:16, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

If by "incredible timeline" you mean, "halfwitted timeline". jps (talk) 13:59, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

The congress will decide on that, I'm in no position.. VaudevillianScientist (talk) 06:12, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

The congress will decode on that, .. Biting tongue. Donald Albury 14:52, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Timeline_of_UFOs - LuckyLouie (talk) 15:03, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry to see there is both off-wiki and on-wiki WP:CANVASSING [11], [[12]. - LuckyLouie (talk) 16:23, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Do you think they'll create another change.org petition against us? lol Hemiauchenia (talk) 16:58, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Kanawha people

As far as I can tell Kanawha people is not a real topic that archaeologists write about. The idea that they represent the ancestors to Native Americans appears to be made up. (Kanawha is a valley and as far as I am aware their is no modern ethnic group by that name) As such I've nominated the article for deletion. Please participate if interested. Thanks. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:48, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Jewish Indian theory

An interesting edit - IP removed the word erroneous from the lead as the article doesn't suggest that. They seem to be correct in that the article is about support of the idea. Doug Weller talk 13:57, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Stephen B. Levine

There have recently been two edits to this article recently which I believe are in violation of WP:FRINGE and would like to get input on.

• An SPA, in their only edit, replaced the text known for advocating the fringe view that gender dysphoria and being transgender are often caused by psychological issues that should be treated psycho-analytically as opposed to with gender-affirming care with known for his thesis that ...[13] despite many of the sources noting he's fringe and the statement being obviously fringe

Various sources

When I asked him about his status as an outsider in his professional community, Levine grew animated. I had it the wrong way around. The mainstream medical establishment, not he, had moved to the fringe. Groups that have endorsed the standards, such as the American Psychiatric Association, did so “on the basis of civil rights” rather than scientific evidence, he said[14] advocated treating trans identity as mental illness with associated conversion therapy-style “cures,” SOC-7 and what followed with the DSM-5 in 2015 represented professional blows to both their research agendas and to their business practices.[15] For years, these experts have struggled to establish their credibility in court. Judges have found their testimony to be “biased,” “illogical,” “conspiratorial” or based on fabrication, or tossed their testimony in its entirety for having no basis in research. ... Hruz is part of a small but prolific roster of expert witnesses who crisscross the country to testify in defense of anti-trans laws and policies facing a legal challenge. Pulling ideas from the fringes of medicine, their purpose is to convince judges that gender-affirming care is scientifically controversial, unnecessary and dangerous ... Besides Hruz, the core group of experts includes James Cantor, a Canadian psychologist; Stephen Levine, a clinical psychiatrist whom prisons often enlist when they are facing pressure to provide gender-affirming care; ... Levine has had parts of his testimony struck several times, including for relying on a fabricated anecdote.[16] Other vestigial scientists actively support SAFE and similar GAC bans with outdated pathological theories. Stephen Levine is a psychiatry professor at Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine, founder of the school's gender identity clinic, and served as chair of the fifth edition of the Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Association Standards of Care (now known as WPATH) in 1998 (Caraballo, 2023). Today, Levine testifies frequently as an expert witness for states seeking to ban GAC for minors and to deny GAC to incarcerated adults (Stahl, 2021). Particularly notable is Levine's (2013) theory that trans individuals are commonly pathologically narcissistic. ... Beyond bans for minors, agents of scientific uncertainty have supported limits on adult GAC. Florida Governor Ron DeSantis's Medicaid ban on GAC coverage was defended by a familiar cast including Van Mol, Van Meter, Lappert, Cantor, Laidlaw, Levine, ... Although most medical and mental health associations oppose GAC bans, some fringe medical associations support SAFE and similar bans. Many of these fringe associations are small and share leaders. Most are composed of vestigial scientists as well as clinicians who publish statements, commentaries, and studies in their own scientific journals and websites. The following describes several anti-GAC fringe medical associations;[17] Dr. Levine, whose conversion therapy practice contradicts mainstream medical opinion should not be used by states in court to justify anti-trans policies.[18]

• Another editor removed the text The Southern Poverty Law Center described Levine as part of an "old guard that advocated treating trans identity as mental illness with associated conversion therapy-style “cures”" whose activism began in response to changes in the DSM-5 and WPATH SOC 7 which represented a threat to their business practices and research agendas. stating Not appropriate for biography of a living person. Partisan statements and contentious tone[19] - this whitewashing is more obviously in blatant disregard of WP:NPOV and WP:SPLC

Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 20:22, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

There is a discussion going on as to whether advocacy groups like the SPLC are SPS, as technically the way SPS is written right now they are self published sources and therefore unusable on BLPs. The discussion is ongoing, but if it comes to the consensus that such groups are SPS, the removal of the latter is justified. No comment otherwise. PARAKANYAA (talk) 22:49, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

As a courtesy link, the discussion in question is Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Grey Literature. As noted there, the language by which the SPLC is a SPS is an essay, WP:USESPS, not actual policy. I'll note that the the majority of votes say this is obviously too strict a definition of SPS and either voted that way or called it a bad RFC on those grounds. As it stands, the WP:SPLC are WP:GREL, and we shouldn't pre-emptively/speculatively downgrade RS. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 00:06, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

I can't see any consensus in that discussion either way, and our current definition in policy outside the essay is vague enough it could apply. SPLC being an SPS is not a new accusation, but we've never come to any real conclusion on it. And the question of whether SPLC is reliable is related to but separate from whether it is an SPS - if it is an SPS per policy it is unusable for BLPs always. Some people in that discussion (not me) were opposed to using advocacy group sources in BLPs at all, so until this is settled it should be treated cautiously, especially when it's very contentious allegations as it is here. PARAKANYAA (talk) 01:01, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Why start a discussion here if there isn't a talk page discussion at the article? Given the contentious nature of the allegation removal seems appropriate but that really is a talk page discussion point vs a FRINGE question. Springee (talk) 05:11, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

I suggest that we move all those "this discussion should not be on WP:FTN" complaints to Wikipedia talk:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard from now on. --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:12, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

I suspect you are aware that typically a concern would be raised at the article's talk page first and with involved editors first. Springee (talk) 11:29, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Intuitive Interspecies Communication (IIC)

Has anyone else ever heard of Intuitive Interspecies Communication? On looking into one of the authors of a paper quoted above, I found out about this topic: [20]

• IIC presents as a detailed, non-verbal and non-physical form of communication between humans and other animals. Drawing on a diversity of intuitive capacities, IIC includes the mutual exchange of visceral feelings, emotions, mental impressions and thoughts, embodied sensations of touch, smell, taste, sound, as well as visuals in the mind’s eye. While these exchanges can occur while in direct physical proximity to the animal, they can also occur over great distances and without the need for visual, auditory, olfactory, voice or other cues that humans normally associate with direct interactive communication...At this time, we are focusing on animal-human IIC, but the phenomenon is also known to be linked to interactions with plants and other beings of the land, water and skies.

It basically looks like a rebranding of extrasensory perception and mediumship but for animals and with an "indigenous" coat of paint, and in any case flies in the face of mainstream zoology and cognitive science (and, well, physics). There was even a virtual symposium (probably small) and they managed to get a grant from the Canadian government (in social sciences and humanities).

I searched Wikipedia for the term and found it appeared in Animal communication. I removed it there, along with some neighboring poorly sourced material. The IIC stuff seems to have been added in fall 2023 by a student editor in an English class. [21][22]

I bring this up here because the Animal communication article may need more work or watching and also I think more awareness of this (newish?) flavor of fringe might be good. Has anyone else heard of this before, and has it ever been covered by skeptic sites or other sources? I could not find any. Crossroads ^-talk- 03:33, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

No, but thanks for bringing it to our attention and making those edits. The laundering of science denialism by applying social-justice buzzwords like "traditional", "indigenous", and "decolonization" is a massive thorn in my side, so I'm going to keep an eye out. WeirdNAnnoyed (talk) 11:53, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

James Mellaart and Çatalhöyük & Mount Hasan

Anyone who knows the sordid history of James Mellaart? There are a number of sources that have weighed in on whether a particular mural in Çatalhöyük depicts an eruption of Mount Hasan, and are cited in the volcano's article. My question is not about them, but about whether the mural itself (rather than its interpretation) is genuine. This source says that Mellaart apparently faked some of his "findings", but I don't know if anyone has cast doubt on the particular map/volcano mural. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 12:55, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Pseudoarchaeology on Rogan

Joe Rogan posted a podcast episode today with Jimmy Corsetti and Dan Richards. Dan Richards has been very critical of Hoopes editing on Wikipedia, and used the podcast to attack him, starting here, and specifically mentioned the Younger Dryas impact hypothesis, Graham Hancock and pseudoarchaeology. I didn't listen much past that (bits here and there) so I'm not sure if they also mentioned other articles.

It probably wouldn't hurt to keep an eye on those, given Rogan's reach. Guettarda (talk) 23:06, 20 November 2024 (UTC)