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Three Israeli navy missile boats leave the Haifa naval base in northern Israel in a planned attempt to intercept the Gaza-bound international flotilla. (The New York Times)
Nearly all Israeli unions announce a boycott of organized workers' trips to Turkey due to the country's support for the flotilla, with one saying that "Turkey had been wiped off the workers unions' travel maps". (The Jerusalem Post)
According to Israel's Defense minister, Ehud Barak, IDF chief of staff and Navy commander, the organisers are to blame for deaths from the Israeli attacks upon the flotilla, with Barak saying that the soldiers tried to board the ship peacefully but were forced to open fire to protect themselves. (Jerusalem Post)(Ynet)
Oppose per my "cockroach" standard- no matter how many of these types get killed, there's always another one ready to take up the job. I honestly couldn't see myself supporting anyone but the confirmed death of Osama himself. Courcelles (talk) 20:20, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Courcelles. Al-qaeda leaders get killed all the time, and usually no-one has even heard they'd taken over until their assassination is announced. Bin Laden would be and al-Zakalwi was big enough, but al-Masri isn't. Al-Zawahiri would be debatable. Modest Geniustalk23:40, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know the last time we had a Canadian story (or more appropriately a Canadien one). There's int'l interest here because the smoke from the fires is reaching as far as Boston and beyond. Article needs work though. ~DCTalk To Me19:04, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Philippine congressional elections
Most of the party-list seats have been filled up so the remaining seats in the House of Representatives (around 25) won't change the outcome. The results of the Senate election was earlier known but I wanted to join into one blurb:
For those who are looking, the updates are in the "Aftermath" section in each article. The result of the presidential election may come later this week or next week. –HowardtheDuck17:19, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The senate elections were announced way back on 18 May; when were the representatives announced? Barring date issues, support per ITNR. Bodies of the articles have been updated but their leads could do with a once-over. Modest Geniustalk19:01, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I was waiting for the at least 90% of the House of Representatives' seats to have declared winners. While most of the winning district representatives (80% of the seats) were announced the week proceeding the election, more than half of the party-list seats (20% of the seats) were declared today so I waited for the party-lists to have declared winners. Plus, I think the people here won't like an article about elections in the Philippines going up thrice. –HowardtheDuck19:10, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Heyyyyyy anyone? For reference this should go below the Gaza flotilla item since this occurred first. –HowardtheDuck
We'd really need more on why he resigned! As it is, there's just the one sentence in the article - but if we can get this updated, it certainly deserves mentioning. Shimgray | talk | 12:49, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think the reason is more important than the "with immediate effect". How about "etcetc. resigns following criticism of his comments about overseas military operations." Physchim62(talk)13:37, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: this is certainly not an ITNR event. In the case of an elected head of state (ie that applies to germany), ITNR lists the results of elections for the head of state, not the resignation of an existing one. As it happens, I support posting this, but on it's own merits. However I think the blurb really has to have some information about why he resigned, reading it at the moment my immediate reaction is 'so?' Modest Geniustalk14:16, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's not my understanding of ITN/R. I thought we were clear that all changes of head of state should go up. I agree that we should find a wording that summarizes the reasons for his resignation (the reasons are not in dispute, but it's a rather complicated affair). Physchim62(talk)14:20, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
WP:ITNR lists 'The results of the elections for head of state'. Nothing about resignations or other changes. That may well be worth modifying (in which case WT:ITNR would be the place to discuss it), but as ITNR currently stands this item is not included. Modest Geniustalk16:15, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Christian Wulff is designated by the government to succeed Köhler (and is certain to win, unless there's a two-digit number of "faithless electors" from the government parties in the Bundesversammlung). So this fact might be added to the blurb. --Roentgenium111 (talk) 20:18, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So would you perhaps like to provide us with some information? Any information at all? Is there an article? Has it been updated? What's the significance of the story? Modest Geniustalk14:19, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Reports of Israeli forces killing flotilla passengers
Eh - 10 at the moment. I believe there are notable people, including Nobel Laureates and politicians on board, but even without them... :-( --candle•wicke04:57, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Obvious Support but wait. There were some notable Pakistani passengers also. I think this might bring it in direct conflict with Pakistan after 1973's war. Then the ratio was 2:0, what will be this time. At least for the story to to develop. It's gone be tricky. --yousaf46505:24, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment would recommend cutting Yousaf some slack. The excessive Power cuts and the never ending violence in Pakistan there has got to be stressful. It is admirable that he still finds the dedication to log on to WP.--Wikireader41 (talk) 15:03, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. This is a massive news story; it's all over the front pages of every news site this morning. Needs to be in ITN asap. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:58, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The death toll in yesterday's bus crash in Cameroon is said to have risen to at least 30 people and is expected to rise again. The bus broke into two pieces after rolling down a hill several times. (Al Jazeera)(news.com.au)(AFP)
A second Danish pharmaceutical company, Leo Pharma, suspends sales of medical products in Greece over the government's decision to reduce the cost of medicine there. The government condemns these acts as "unfair". (BBC)
BP turns to a new strategy to stop the Gulf of Mexico oil spill, but it will take at least four to seven days before the containment device that could capture the leaking oil can be put into place. (The Australian)(VOA)(CNN)
Right-wing members of Knesset call for arrest and removal from Knesset of Balad MKHaneen Zoabi, who said she was proud to do her part to end what she called a siege on Gaza.(Jerusalem Post)
The Social Democrats gain the most votes, but 10 percentage points less than 2006, losing 18 seats. (CNN)(AP)
Centre-right parties win 118 seats, with two of them—TOP 09 and Public Affairs—standing in the election for the first time. A centre-right coalition, with Petr Nečas as new Prime Minister, is believed to be "almost certain". (BusinessWeek)
Social Democrats leader Jiří Paroubek resigns as party leader following the result. (Reuters)
The Communist Party, which was polling higher than 2006 before the election, fail to make any gains, remaining at 26 seats.
I have done a prose update as it's been an hour since the race finished and none of the indy fans have arrived at the article. --Mkativerata (talk) 21:51, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It says it works on monkeys. So let's modify the blurb, the current one is not following the ITN conventions. --Tone22:37, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral. Remission in four monkeys and we post it on ITN? That seems a bit like jumping the gun to me. I don't have any reason to doubt the efficacy, and it's certainly an interesting item, so I won't oppose but I'm not convinced either. Modest Geniustalk22:57, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Pigeon held for spying
Yes you are reading it correctly a pigeon is being for spying.Pigeon held for spying. This reminds me of captain Blackadder's shooting of a pigeon, and the subsequent court martial, which also represents the world after 9/11. As candlewicke said earlier many of you might not have been born when this series was aired. For those of you who haven't seen it is located here blackadder - shooting of the carrier pigeon. So lets have some fun.--yousaf46508:54, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is the response I needed, not the above ones. Take every story on it's merit. ;) For more serious response see below. --yousaf46502:15, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose There seems to be a surplus of trolling this week from user yousaf465, who supports a pigeon story and the perfect game but not the Lahore attack, which killed 100+, from being placed on ITN. Nutmegger (talk) 17:54, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Assume good faith. Mark Buehrle's perfect game was posted last year, I think, and Dallas Braden's generated a lot of discussion, so a nomination is not out of line. (These things usually only happen every five years or so -- don't know why there's been 3 in a year and two in a month.) -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:09, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As Mwalcoff a similar record was nominated/posted previously , that is the reason for posting this one. For Lahore attack I had some reservation which I expressed, I think that was not without reason. Previously I not only nominated such attack but also supported posting. I think this will clear any confusion. :) --yousaf46502:28, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What is wrong with making a nomination? There aren't usually ever enough. And there will be even less if the nominators are discouraged. --candle•wicke03:28, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree entirely, Candlewicke; further, there have only been, what, 20 of these in 120 years? Two in a month is a statistical anomaly we may never see again, so it was worth the nomination. I think a) a better nomination statement, at least linking to the pitcher's article and including the term "perfect game" would have started this one on a better foot, and b) the uniqueness of the timing is also its downfall as a claim to importance. Bradjamesbrown (talk) 15:12, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I think the rare event here is not a perfect game, but rather the second perfect game in one month. That in itself could be ITN-worthy. -- tariqabjotu15:15, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Six people have already been killed by the storm, which was declared early today, and forecasts anticipate upwards of 20 inches (500 cm) of rain falling in El Salvador, Guatemala (including around the Pacaya volcano) and Nicaragua. The government in Guatemala is fearing that this will turn into a huge disaster, "the severity of the storm could overwhelm the State's response capabilities" - [3] as well as dozens of other Spanish and English news sources. The storm has now also made landfall near the Mexico-Guatemala border. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 00:51, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Another update- 23 people confirmed killed and 24 more are missing, countries affected are Guatemala, Mexico, El Salvador, Nicaragua and Honduras. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 17:27, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Posted. This has been nominated for a fair while and there has been no rush to oppose it. There's a decent article on the subject and it seems to be affecting a lot of people in a lot of places, which is why I put it up despite the relatively week consensus. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 00:36, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't look likely that any candidate will win the required 50% of the vote. In that case the run of will be on 20 June - Dumelow (talk) 08:59, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
BP's effort fails to plug the Gulf of Mexico oil spill, which is the worst in U.S. history, and is fouling marshland and beaches, as estimates of how much oil is leaking grow more dire. (AP)(USA Today)
Tens of thousands of Portuguese rally in central Lisbon against the government's austerity measures in one of the biggest protests in recent years. (Al Jazeera)
Gaza prepares a welcoming party to receive the flotilla of ships demonstrating against Israel's naval blockade, while the ships are delayed near Cyprus due to unsuccessful attempts to collect dozens of high-profile supporters from the island. (The Australian)(The Age)(Al Jazeera)(BBC)
Six people are killed and twelve others are injured after a gas canister blasts in an underground tunnel in Rafah. (Xinhua)(AFP)
Two gay pride demonstrations are held in Moscow despite an official ban. It is the first time the event was not broken up by police since the initial attempt in 2006. (AP)(Russia Today)(Reuters)
More than 50,000 Greeks with diabetes are left without insulin after Novo Nordisk, the world's leading supplier of the drug, withdraws from Greece in a "brutal capitalist blackmail" after being asked to reduce the cost of its medicine by the Greek government. (BBC)(euronews)
At least 14 people are wounded after dozens of handball fans belonging to rival teams PAOK Thessaloniki and AEK Athens attack each other with petrol bombs, knives, bricks and furniture, leading to a street battle in Lamia. Police deploy tear gas to bring the city under their control. (BBC)
Nepal's political leaders agree to extend the parliamentary term for another year following talks to avert a political crisis. (Al Jazeera)(The Rising Nepal)
Support when updated. If it is not clear who'll form the government, we usually go with "X party wins plurality in the election." --Tone21:54, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at the results, we should work on the blurb a bit. Saying it will be hard for them to form the government is rather speculative though apparently obvious. Maybe better to mention that 5 parties entered the parliament with big parties suffering huge loss of votes? --Tone22:36, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds reasonable. Let's leave it for a couple of hours to allow some more ideas to appear and the article to grow. Then, posting. --Tone22:44, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The 55th contest is taking place tonight (well, now), being broadcast to a television audience of 125 million across the world. Winner to be announced in around two hours time. (BBC)(AP) - JuneGloom07Talk? 20:03, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This should be fixed in a couple of minutes. I'd suggest expanding the blurb to mention the singer and the song name. --Tone22:17, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, that's statistics, we don't feature statistics unless they are really special (which I don't think is the case here).--Tone13:13, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Huh? Why not? It's the first German win in 28 years, and second overall. Being German, I can tell you that is a notable stat. --bender235 (talk) 14:33, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The suite of articles (on the song, artist and competition) were all in pretty decent shape, partly because of the national selection a couple of months ago. Given that the basic info on the song, venue etc. had already been added, it's hard to think what more information there can be than 'so and so won, with x many points, and here's a scoreboard'. The one unexpected event (stage invasion) has a prose update, albeit currently uncited. Modest Geniustalk19:03, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah the articles are in better enough shape, but the "ITN rules" say that "the update must but a five sentence update (with at minimum three references, not counting duplicates) has generally been considered more than sufficient, while a one sentence update is considered extremely questionable." Now the update about the blurb per se on the article, not the side events such as the stage invasion, is only a single sentence. If only a single sentence can be added for everything that occurred in this event, I dunno why it's up there. –HowardtheDuck04:03, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In general, ITN only features obituaries for heads of state, former heads of state and other extremely important people. As a rule of thumb, most "celebrities" won't get on and nor should they in most cases. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:05, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry but Dennis Hopper is not a simple celebrity, he is a key figure in the history of cinematography, as a director, actor and generally as an artist. The LEAD of the article is simply not good enough at the moment to establish his importance, but I would say his notability is very high. --Elekhh (talk) 22:39, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that he was important enough within his field to meet that part of the guideline; Easy Rider alone warrants that. However, the guidelines also say that the death has to be "unexpected or tragic". I'm not sure what "or tragic" means, surely a death is always tragic for those closest to the diseased. But his death was certainly not unexpected; he was 74 and diagnosed with terminal cancer months ago. Lampman (talk) 23:31, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I've thought about this and was expecting to oppose but now I've changed my mind. After reading about him I would agree with Elekhh as he doesn't sound like a "simple celebrity". He seems very highly regarded internationally as an artist/actor/director/photographer and so on (I don't know how many careers this man had but the focus is certainly more on these than his personal life).
France24 describes him as "an iconic big-screen emblem of US counterculture".
The Guardian describes some of the roles he had (they seem quite diverse) and calls him "one of the movie world's great outlaws".
CBC describes him as "the Hollywood elder statesman".
The Times calls him an "icon of counterculture cinema".
Rolling Stone says he "put his fingerprints on a series of iconic, era-defining pictures".
The age and "expected death" has not counted against others in the past if they are important enough. Many have been diseased and much older than 74. J.D Salinger is a good example of someone who was older (91) and of an artistic nature. Who are the other top people in Hopper's professions whose deaths would feature on ITN? --candle•wicke03:00, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What you're saying just demonstrates the Wiki article is not good enough to presents Hopper's notability. According to my readings he has a much stronger place in the history of cinematography than all those you mentioned. Particularly as a director you cannot compare him to "only" actors. Finally, I don't understand why premature, accidental or violent death would add to his notability. --Elekhh (talk) 08:35, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm, the first name on my list is obviously not an actor. The second one is both a director and actor, and much more notable than Hopper in either role. BTW, it's not just based on the wikiarticles, but also my decades of watching movies. IMO, Hopper is notable but not that notable. If you want a sports analogy, he would get a few votes to get to the Baseball Hall of Fame, but not enough to actually get voted in. Just my two cents. --PFHLai (talk) 18:23, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
BTW, "premature, accidental or violent death" would not add to his notability, but add to the newsworthiness of the death. A death of significance is more likely to get my support for ITN. --PFHLai (talk) 18:29, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support Not notable? He was an extraordinarily iconic cultural figure...and his manner of death is not important. ITN is not a news service. Train wrecks that effect hardly anyone go right in, but an iconic figure whose article is in decent shape is blocked. ITN is really losing the plot. RxS (talk) 18:31, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support A clear case where, whatever guidance suggests his death should not feature in ITN, that guidance should be ignored. Leaky Caldron18:42, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral Frankly, the fact that still now, well after the event in Wikipedia terms, his article still has nothing to say about the reaction to, or impact of, his death other than the pure mechanics of it, carries more weight as to whether it should go up on ITN or not, than any subjective ideas about whether he really was in the top echelon of his field or not, which, when compared even to Jack Nicholson who is just one year younger, I am not so sure of at all. I could be persuaded to support if/when anybody writes a half decent paragraph to this effect, but as it is now, it's an oppose. MickMacNee (talk) 19:39, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Nicholson won three Academy Awards, three BAFTAs, has an AFI Lifetime Achievement award. Hopper had exactly zero. Not to mention that Nicholson is the most nominated actor in the history of the Academy Awards and has received nominations in 5 different decades. That is not remotely an apt comparison. --Smashvilletalk21:10, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Pacaya seems to have sufficient global coverage (it's near the capital), Tungurahua less so. Both articles need updating but, in principle, I support. Physchim62(talk)16:33, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support Pacaya, for now. Update required. Combining the blurb with the Agatha storm would be a nice thing to do. --Tone21:54, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
At least three people die, at least four others are missing, a 15-day state of calamity is declared and the international airport is shut down due to the eruption of the Pacaya volcano in Guatemala. (CNN)
The Israeli Navy also sets off to confront the international flotilla carrying 10,000 tons of humanitarian aid as hundreds of people on board attempt to break the Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip. (The Guardian)
Israel's foreign minister Avigdor Lieberman denies the existence of a humanitarian crisis and says the flotilla is "an attempt at violent propaganda against Israel" and promises that "Israel will not allow a violation of its sovereignty at sea, in the air, or on land". (Ynetnews)
Cypriot authorities prevent any activists from leaving the island to join the flotilla, while Turkey urges Israel to treat the convoy as humanitarian aid. (Reuters)
PeruvianAIDESEP indigenous leader Alberto Pizango, detained on Wednesday as he returned from almost a year in exile in Nicaragua and charged with objecting to oil digging in the rainforest, is released on bail. (BBC)
Foxconn increases the wages of the workers in its Shenzhen factory, where several employees have committed suicide, increases wages, by 20 per cent in an effort to boost morale. (BBC)
Actually now that I've put a short update in the article, I'm not sure. The value of the debt waiver was only $36 million. That's not exactly much. --Mkativerata (talk) 07:21, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support(!) Come on! :-( The amount depends on your perspective. Haiti wouldn't exactly refuse $36 million at this time. It is amazing how 36 million of anything could be considered a "tiny" amount. --candle•wicke22:35, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
36 million US dollars isn't really that much. That's roughly the cost of one hospital, a supermarket's worth of stock, or for a worrying bit of perspective one major sporting star. In business or international aid terms, it's nothing. A larger debt than this was waived by Italy alone in the immediate aftermath of the quake, whilst. Approximately 100 times as much was pledged in post-earthquake aid according to our article, and that doesn't even include all the charitable appeals. Modest Geniustalk23:05, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. It seems significant enough. It involves Norway. And it is $1 billion. And with 300 football fields of rainforests disappearing every hour in Indonesia this must be quite an important development. --candle•wicke19:08, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Instead of the palm oil I would rather mention the $1 billion. This is a major precedent where a country pays a large sum to another country to avoid deforestation. --Elekhh (talk) 23:44, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support with any blurb is about time to be posted. The article has been substantially improved over the last days. --Elekhh (talk) 05:50, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
He was quite famous so i will nominate him. i believe this will be big news at least in North America and any country where Diff'rent Strokes ran one time or another. He did make "What'choo talkin' 'bout" famous. Also this was an unexpected death -- Ashish-g5520:03, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Suppose. As an actor who attained fame as a child, and with the media focus that has been on him throughout, I think this nomination deserves the ITN spot. __meco (talk) 09:39, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Oppose Does not reach the level of notability. Reporting deaths on ITN is rightfully reserved for heads of state/government and takes an extremely high level of notability if a person is not. Martin Luther King, Jr. would be notable enough. Gary Coleman most certainly is not. Save it for his blurb on Current Events. --Kitch(Talk : Contrib)14:14, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Almost as close in count (though still ongoing) to today's India attack. ITN-worthy. although it is still ongoing and stuff will change, more sources will come in due course. After than (say a few hours) it should be ripe for ITNLihaas (talk) 10:59, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Actually I'm concerned about the numbers of vandal edits it will generate, this attack is a really sensitive issue. It not just another attack which can posted without generating any controversy. First of all you can't call these place of worship as "Mosque" under the definition of Mosque. Pakistani media called it "Ahmadiyya's place of worship. If we do it here they will complain and that will be just a tip of ice berg. You may compare it with Judaism vs Christianity issue. So I think we can leave it for the wikinews only. Avoid any controversial content on Main Page. --yousaf46515:14, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Vandalism is not a good motive for not posting something. If it was, we'd have to scrap the TFA altogether. Besides, it would be like giving into them and it can always be semi protected if need be. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:37, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
At 6 in the morning water was 2 feets from the spillway, currently the time is 8 in the evening, so if estimates are correct it is just 4 inches from the spillway. It has already displaced a very large population. --yousaf46515:02, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
yousaf465 merely urges us to prepare for a likely ITN item. I did the same when the first ash clouds from Iceland started to approach Northern Norway, and perhaps some of you remember that we did mention that ash thing on ITN subsequent to that. On the other hand I also nominated Everybody Draw Mohammed Day preemptively which didn't make it. __meco (talk) 09:45, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Can we please stop responding to biased arguments that no one makes? It certainly would be worthy no matter where it happened; no one has opposed this item, let alone opposed it because it didn't happen in the U.S. or Europe. -- tariqabjotu09:15, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We do our best. As soon as we have an item with sufficient support and an update in accordance with ITN criteria and an admin is available to post it, it goes up. I try to make myself as available as I can, but I can't be on 24 hours a day. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:39, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There are several steps for an item getting onto ITN. First, the event has to happen (May 27, 20:30 UTC). Then, someone has to nominate it (didn't happen until May 28, 04:12 UTC). Then people have to support it (first support didn't seem to come until May 28, 06:15 UTC). The article has to be updated somewhere in there, and then someone has to post it (came at 09:15, May 28). So, essentially, I posted it three hours after the first corroborating support. On the other hand, no one, including yourself, nominated the event until eight hours after it happened. No one, including yourself, supported it until two hours after the event was nominated. And you didn't lend your support until three hours after the event was nominated and 10+ hours after the event happened. But, I got the item up within three hours of some decent support coming in. So... I'm not sure what you're complaining about. That is timely. And if the event had been nominated during the daylight hours of the UK or the US, I'm sure it would have gone up even faster. If there's a geographical problem here somewhere, it's that much of the Anglosphere was asleep when the item was nominated. But even that wasn't an issue, because it was posted within the acceptable amount of time that a non-ITNR event would be put on ITN. The geographical bias claims you're making here are demonstrably false. -- tariqabjotu17:20, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The crash actually happened sometime in the middle evening UK time, late afternoon in USA - the delay is more down to the time it took for news of it come in if anything, due to it happening in the middle of the night local time and in the middle of nowhere. MickMacNee (talk) 17:41, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support as above, as terrorism was involved it looks to be more ITN worthy than the recent derailment in China, which was posted. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:17, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Organizers of the aid flotilla refuse an offer of support by the family of kidnapped Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit if they would urge Hamas to allow the soldier to receive letters and food packages from his family and international organizations to visit him. (Ynetnews)(The Jerusalem Post)(Haaretz)
Israel invites the convoy to unload its cargo at the port of Ashdod, where the cargo will be checked for weapons and then the humanitarian goods will be distributed by land to Gaza. (Haaretz)(The Jerusalem Post)
The Israeli Army shows journalists a detention centre in Ashdod where those on board will locked up, saying Israelis would be arrested, Palestinians would be questioned by the Israeli secret service, and foreign nationals would be sent home. (Al Jazeera)
Cyprus bans flotilla vessels from gathering in its territorial waters, a move described by Israel as "an ethical deed and a voice of reason". (Ynetnews)
Are you sure its a speed record? NASA X-43 seems to have gone much faster. I believe the record here is 'longest', and that doesn't sound nearly as impressive, as this thing is meant to travel for an hour apparently, and the X-43 already went for 12 seconds. Given the testing program, there will be records like this all the time methinks. MickMacNee (talk) 03:07, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
the record was duration of the flight at hypersonic speed. I took them 10 years to go from 10 s flight to 200 s flight. methinks we wont have records like this all the time.--Wikireader41 (talk) 13:11, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I don't see any evidence offered of international significance, and reading the article, it's a 'meh' from me. I'm sure that the international community isn't that surprised really, and it seems the media are far more interested in slamming him for not comforting in person the out of work fishermen down in old miss. MickMacNee (talk) 22:48, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
According to the government official in charge, the oil has stopped spewing [10]. It may be diligent to wait for confirmation of some kind though (by BP or the Obama administration). ~DCTalk To Me15:06, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. A close reading of the article indicates that this solution is not permanent and may fail over the next few days.--WaltCip (talk) 15:12, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose It is a big and ongoing news story, but I don't think it deserves reposting. We would be featuring the same article as last time. Physchim62(talk)15:33, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
i would have supported if the numbers were based on revenue. these are based market capital hence share prices. which dont mean squat. volkswagen couple years ago became biggest company in the world because its shares jumped over 1k for few moments. a simple multiplication of share value doesnt show how big a company is... its always inflated for tech companies anyways oppose -- Ashish-g5514:44, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support a very big technology story, Apple and Microsoft have been rivals for years and for Apple to take the lead in market cap is impressive. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:23, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Do we put this up every time shifts in the market reverse this? They're close enough now- 3 billion USD before today, less now- that this could easily oscillate over the next month many times. Bradjamesbrown (talk) 21:36, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. But if we publish it this one time, what would make it more significant than - say - Microsoft overtaking Apple about one year into the future?--WaltCip (talk) 05:02, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure I understand this. Is it the photo? The award? The presenter of the award? The Royal Festival Hall? Or just because it is Tom Cruise? Either way I can see nothing to support at the moment. --candle•wicke23:15, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It was a very close contest but Lee Dewyze walked away with the American Idol title, beating fellow contestant Crystal Bowersox. Lee, a paint salesman, became the American Idol Finale 2010 Winner with 51% votes. (OneIndia)Tatiraju.rishabh (talk) 10:06, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not supporting but I wanted to register my opposition to any kind of fixed rule like "We don't feature domestic contests." We have more readers in the US than in Europe, so if Eurovision gets on I don't think American Idol should be rejected out of hand. Nonetheless, Idol doesn't get the kind of attention it used to, so I won't support for now. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 22:53, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I really don't see any similarity between a TV show and an international contest of any kind which has occurred annually for more than 50 years. The article on Eurovision Song Contest even states "Eligibility to participate is not determined by geographic inclusion within the continent of Europe, despite the "Euro" in "Eurovision" — nor does it have any relation to the European Union. Several countries geographically outside the boundaries of Europe have competed: Israel, Cyprus, Armenia, Georgia and Azerbaijan in Western Asia, since 1973, 1981, 2006, 2007 and 2008 respectively; and Morocco, in North Africa, in the 1980 competition alone. In addition, Turkey and Russia, which are both transcontinental countries with most of their territory outside of Europe, have competed respectively since 1975 and 1994.[26]" The inclusion of Russia in particular ought to solve any dispute between the two concerning population size and land area. --candle•wicke23:27, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And all those countries put together contribute far fewer readers of this page than do the US and Canada. That's not to say Eurovision shouldn't go up, only that we shouldn't dismiss its closest North American relation out of hand. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:29, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I oppose as it's not significant enough, however it compares with Eurovision; but I'd point out that the statement that 'we don't post domestic contests' is simply wrong--e.g. we post the Super Bowl. Also, American Idol certainly has fans outside the U.S. so saying it's a mere domestic concern understates its significance.--Johnsemlak (talk) 06:43, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe that is because the 2010 Eurovision song contest hasn't happened yet, Howard. Then again, best not to let the truth get in the way of a good argument... --Daviessimo (talk) 18:29, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Just a reality show with declining ratings. Depending on the ratings results, may not even have been the highest rated results show that night. --Smashvilletalk18:27, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. It is definitely time to start demanding the existence of ITN valid content before nomination - never mind evidence of international significane, this 'article' is two sentences long and has not even been touched in over 12 hours. MickMacNee (talk) 23:02, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe it has not been touched because it is not very visible? Hopefully it is more valid now, though it might not have been if it hadn't been nominated here. Support because it is an unusual incident, on a theatre in an area which is not used to such bombings. At least 7 people die and at least 40 others are injured after a bomb explodes before a performance in Stavropol. --candle•wicke00:38, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. We don't generally run airline bankrupcies, as they are far too common. You would need to show some sort of global significance for this to go up. Physchim62(talk)10:17, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I would say this and this is ample evidence that this was no ordinary or run of the mill airline failure. And it unsurprisingly getting cross continental news coverage. MickMacNee (talk) 13:14, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
They are all pathetic, at least the ones that haven't been dragged kicking and screaming through Afd anyway, only to emerge the other side resembling just a laundry list of trivia. Most of these relations articles have only been created recently, by one editor, and not for any reason that they were needed, and it frankly really shows in most of them. Argentina - Britain is an other chuckle-fest of 'wtf is this?'. MickMacNee (talk) 23:17, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose. A new TV station is not really newsworthy. I realise that TVBI is meant to become the next Al-Jazeera, but it's a bit CRYSTAL-balling to say that it will. Until then, it's just another international TV station, of which there are dozens. Physchim62(talk)10:19, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support Targetted at half of Africa, that's pretty ambitious and encompassing without the need for speculations. __meco (talk) 14:10, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
More than 80 students are sickened in a girls' school in Kunduz, Afghanistan, in a poison gas attack suspected to have been carried out by Taliban assailants whose version of Islam is opposed to girls being educated.(USA Today)
Jamaican police arrest more than 500 people after an unsuccessful attempt to arrest a suspected drug kingpin in Kingston, the capital, results in violence that leaves at least 44 people dead. (CNN)(BBC)
Two of Ethiopia's main opposition leaders call for a rerun of Sunday's elections won by Western-backed Meles Zenawi. They say the elections were not free and fair and that two politicians were killed by security forces. (Al Jazeera)(BBC)(The Hindu)(Reuters)
A Lusaka court convicts former Zambian Finance Minister Katele Kalumba of corruption and sentences him to five years with hard labour. Six other people, including former officials in the finance ministry, are also found guilty of corruption. (BBC)(IOL)
Two people are injured and several vehicles are destroyed during a blast in Kandahar. (Al Jazeera)
Elton John makes his Moroccan debut at the Mawazine festival in Rabat, ignoring calls for him to be banned by Islamists who feared he would offend public morals. (BBC)
Support for the story, but strong oppose for an article with so little new materials added to it. Would've preferred that we waited till after the article has grown a bit more. --PFHLai (talk) 02:26, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. There are two more scheduled final launches and landings, all for this year, and it is not even a certainty that this was this Orbiter's final mission. At this rate, nobody is actually going to give a monkeys when the final final mission happens. MickMacNee (talk) 17:31, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, let's mention it when the last shuttle completes the mission. Atlantis was mentioned at the launch already. --Tone21:05, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Increased tensions over the sinking of the South Korean warship ROKS Cheonan (PCC-772): South Korea begins broadcasting propaganda over its border with North Korea. North Korea severs all ties and communications with the South and expels Southern workers from a jointly-run factory above the border. (Yonhap)(BBC)
A court in Thailand issues an arrest warrant for former Prime MinisterThaksin Shinawatra on charges of terrorism, following a report by the Thai Department of Special Investigations, which concluded that he had financed Red Shirt protesters and had helped them smuggle in weapons and fighters from Cambodia, during the 2010 political crisis. (Al Jazeera)
A white teacher in Dahlonega, Georgia is suspended after permitting non-black students to bring bed sheets and cone-shaped party hats to school to dress in the traditional costume of right-wing white supremacist nationalist organisation Ku Klux Klan for a film project. She refuses to apologise after the issue is raised by African-American students when one of them was asked to take part in a re-enactment of a lynching. (BBC)(Pretoria News)(The Daily Telegraph)
Swedish model Charlotte Lindström is released from Long Bay Prison in Sydney after serving a three year sentence for plotting to kill two people; she served the time in total isolation because of death threats towards her. (Herald Sun)
Article is obviously sub-par at the moment, I will attempt to take a look at it some time today. Don't know when the results will be out yet - Dumelow (talk) 09:23, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Pyongyang's official news agency reports that the North was also expelling all South Korean workers from a jointly-run factory north of the border. South Korea says it plans to refer North Korea to the UN Security Council, and is seeking a unified international response to the incident. ---- Tatiraju.rishabh (talk) 15:08, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That article should cover a lot of ground... and considering its current state, it would require a lot of work to get it up to ITN standards IMHO. I like DAI's idea. —Ed(talk • majestic titan)02:16, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
13,000 Air India workers strike halting all services. All domestic flights after 12:00 IST (UTC+5:30) have been cancelled. All except some international flights of Air India Express have been cancelled. Air India officials say that soon the conditions would get better and the services will run smoothly.The strike woke up after the recent Mangalore Air Crash -- Tatiraju.rishabh (talk) 13:45, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well it's not postable anyway atm- it needs expanding and I'm sure the sourcing issues will be addressed with that. I took the yellow tag off though. Then got annoyed with it and sent it to TfD! HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:33, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
oppose already had a c. Europe on the ITN page, and its also not news if they "prepare" for anything. nothing had happened.Lihaas (talk) 06:48, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Train Derails in Naugachia, India. No fatalities reported.
Oppose India has the world's largest rail stock and it also has disproportionally many accidents. This seems like a minor incident. We even had a similar derailment here in Norway during the last week which no one has even bothered writing a Wikipedia article about. __meco (talk) 10:44, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The widow of an army bomb disposal expert killed there in October admits her husband was under relentless pressure and his elite unit "badly overstretched". (Reuters)
South Korea cuts off trade with North Korea and announces that North Korean ships will no longer be allowed to use South Korean waters. The government demands an apology over the sinking. (BBC)
A panel of judges rules that Kenya's Islamic courts favour Islam and that this is unconstitutional as Kenya is a secular country. (BBC)
Niger proposes reforms that would see only those with a university degree be allowed to run in presidential elections and parliamentary candidates be under the age of seventy and have some form of secondary education. Opposition groups say this discriminates against the 80 per cent of the population that is illiterate. (BBC)
As a development on the sinking of the ROKS Cheonan the South has frozen trade. Trade between the two is responsible for 13% of the North's GDP ($1.68 billion). The measures have been described as "about as tough a response as the South could take, short of military action", Japan is also considering sanctions. Foreign_relations_of_South_Korea#Economic_relations would seem to be the place but that article is poor, perhaps there is somewhere else? - Dumelow (talk) 11:53, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Trade embargos are a big deal, and as you said, it's the most severe sanction that can be imposed short of an invasion. Knowing that North Korea vowed war in response to punishment, this could unfold into some greater calamity.--WaltCip (talk) 14:29, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. The are massive interests in S Korea that suffer from any flair up in intra-peninsular relations (the stock markets suffer, Korean currency is hit, etc). Thus a major action by S Korea is a big deal.--Johnsemlak (talk) 14:36, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note for posting - none of the reliable sources say that "all trade" has been suspended so we can't say it in the blurb. I would suggest something like "South Korea restricts trade with North Korea and announces joint naval training exercises with the United States in response to the sinking of the ROKS Cheonan." --Mkativerata (talk) 19:43, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Attabad lake going to overflow in a few days/ hours time
My third nomination in a single day. The lake is going to overflow any time soon, we don't have article yet, but it is a major disaster in making. A large number of people have been displaced. Google news --yousaf46508:58, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I would like to support the news for Attabad lake but there is not even an article for this newly created natural lake. I think this newly created natural lake on January 4, 2010 should have had an article by now. --GPPande10:20, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have started the article for the same. Maybe you can join in and add some more stuff to make it ITN-ready. --GPPande10:31, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support I'm not so sure we should wait. May 27 is the predicted date the dam will yield. This is probably a news story people will want to follow from now and until the breach. __meco (talk) 14:32, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That is what we are saying, prepare the article and then wait for it's bursting, although it's not Lake Michigan already it has displaced enough people. It been regarded as major disaster here. --yousaf46502:25, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Seems like a no-brainer for ITN, as long as the article gets properly updated with official voting data (not exit polls) and some referenced prose on the outcomes. (Ditto for yesterday's Ethiopian general election, 2010, but someone should work on it.) --PFHLai (talk) 06:45, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
strong support as per the 3 elections yesterday too. Although the Philippines elections for some reason was overlooked. Really that hould be up there too.Lihaas (talk) 22:27, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The "official" result for the Philippine election will be known at mid-June at the latest. It's almost certain that there'll be a good enough update by then. This was what I was talking about when I said that will take a long time before the result would be known. –HowardtheDuck16:14, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's not about support, it's about having an article of sufficient quality. Once the results are in and the article is adequate, it's almost certain to go up, but it won't go up if nobody updates the article. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:22, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hence my post here, hoping to get the attention of editors interested in current events-related wikiarticles. PM Patrick Manning has conceded defeat, and Kamla Persad-Bissessar is slated to take office as the first female PM of T&T. This story should be ITN material. --PFHLai (talk) 03:35, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
With the first Trinidadian female Prime Minister, this is probably more notable than the Dominican election. But the article definitely requires at least a table typically found in legislative election articles with vote totals and changes by party. --Kitch(Talk : Contrib)18:15, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You'd know it's a crappy tournament if an Asian baseball final didn't include teams from among Japan, Korea, Taiwan and China. –HowardtheDuck10:50, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
At least the World Series is actually a top-tier event in baseball. Considering the players' nationalities instead of the teams' addresses, the World Series is more international than the Finals in the *National* Basketball Association. --PFHLai (talk) 19:12, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose As happy as I am to see this decision made, it's not in my view significant enough to ITN. Asking Israel to withdraw a diplomat is fairly low down the "we're angry with you" scale of diplomatic messages. It's not like the ambassador was kicked out. --Mkativerata (talk) 03:16, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
At least 19 passengers were killed and more than 70 were injured, when a landslide in rain-drenched Yujiang, East China's Jiangxi Province. (Global Times)
The opposition reveals evidence of corruption by the government as the elections are happening, including rigging, blocking, arrests, intimidation and privacy concerns. (Taiwan News)(Al Jazeera)
JapanesePrime MinisterYukio Hatoyama makes an apology for breaking an election promise to get rid of a U.S. military base located in Okinawa which he and the United States believe is "needed to guarantee regional security". Demonstrators affected by this failure order him to "go home". (BBC)
The Catholic Church requests the public to donate at least £1 million to church collections today to fund three big open air masses at which Pope Benedict XVI will present while in the UK. The rest of the money is paid for by the British government. (BBC)
Nine ships under the banner Freedom Flotilla, from the UK, Ireland, Algeria, Kuwait, Greece and Turkey, with of 800 people from 50 nationalities, begin a trip to Gaza, the biggest attempt by international aid groups to break Israel's blockade of the Gaza Strip. Israel informs them they will be stopped for "breaching Israeli law". (Al Jazeera)
The UK tourist resort of Blackpool is expected to benefit "tens of millions" of pounds, described by the tourism chief as "unthinkable", following the local football club's elevation to the Premier League as an open-top bus tour is announced. (BBC)
support as per all election results on the front page. if little mauritus/maldives gets on then these little states too. (with the results obviously) Lihaas (talk) 21:58, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. It thinks it is independent and who am I to argue. "More than 70 international observers are supervising the polls" and there is enough interest for several countries to call it "illegal". Source --candle•wicke01:39, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, what is the reason for supporting the Republics of China and Kosovo but not others (out of curiosity)? :-) --candle•wicke01:44, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I can't speak for BJB, but in my view: Taiwan is massive and its elections always get significant international coverage; and Kosovo's independence is well-recognised internationally.--Mkativerata (talk) 01:48, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ah but Kosovo declared independence only two years ago and is not recognised by a significant proportion of the world, including several states in the European Union, several states in NATO and one of its neighbours. ROC is recognised by even less. --candle•wicke02:04, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Mkativerata got it pretty well. Kosovo is recognized by three of the permanent five UNSC members, the Republic of China is de facto recognised by most major countries, though it is with a wink and a nod to please the People's Republic. Bradjamesbrown (talk) 02:12, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Does Wikipedia favour the UNSC? What is the definition of a major country and what is the alternative? I am missing why de facto applies in certain cases and de jure in others and who decides this. Perhaps there is a lot of winking and nodding? ;) --candle•wicke02:29, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The two that recognise Transnistria are themselves recognised by (among others) Russia, Nicaragua, Venezuela and Nauru. Russia is certainly quite big (particularly if one considers Taiwan as "massive" - though I am not sure if this was a geographical reference by Mkativerata) and it's quite a bit bigger than Kosovo. --candle•wicke02:35, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
IMHO the bigger distinction is both Transnistria and Nagorno-Karabakh are "Recognized by UN non-members only" regardless of who those UN non members are recognised by. Personally I would have no problem listing all "UN non-members recognized by at least one UN member". I'm actually not opposed to listing this either (I'm somewhat a believer in recognising the reality regardless of whether it is a good thing, e.g. thats one of the number of the reasons I support naming the article Myanmar not Burma) but IMHO there's a clear distinction between this and Kosovo, Taiwan and others like Abkhazia, Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic, South Ossetia, Northern Cyprus and the Palestinian Authority. Nil Einne (talk) 12:13, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This debate reveals the ludicrousness of trying to determine what is news based on fixed rules, like "national elections are always newsworthy." The fact is, the article is crummy, there is very little interest among Wikipedia readers in the subject matter, and this election will get hardly any coverage in Anglosphere media. Whether this entity is a real country is not the issue. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:57, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Administrator note a bit more prose would be nice. There's currently a short paragraph just before all the tables start, if that could be expanded (and possibly put in its own section) then it should be postable. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:59, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I quite like that image- I think the low quality makes it strangely artistic- so I cropped it and put it up. I prefer it to having a picture of a trophy up there anyway, but if it's no good, I can switch back. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:32, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I just got an edit conflict saying I was going to post it. It would be nice to get the words "general election" in there, but I can always tweak it after it goes up once I've thought of a better way of doing it! Just for the record, support. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:43, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think the plural is required here. The government has two majorities: one in the Senate and the other in the Chamber of Thingies. --Mkativerata (talk) 22:28, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose. Doesn't seem particularly ITN-worthy to me but others might let us know if derailments of this kind are regularly included. In other news, a bus crash in China killed 32 people.[13] --Mkativerata (talk) 07:04, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Um... the layout of the article is a bit odd. There are seven consecutive one-line paragraphs (consisting of one sentence or two very short sentences each). Sure, the article is long enough, but it doesn't look like an article at all. -- tariqabjotu10:08, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If there's a need to disambiguate from "Jiangxi the city", or "Jiangxi the waterfall", etc., maybe. But I won't call this a grammar-related issue. And I think the blurb in MainPage is OK as is. --PFHLai (talk) 12:57, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note The chairman of the election board has announced that the government has definitely won the election. Final results won't be announced until late June [14]. I'm not sure what the precedent is here, but I don't think waiting for full results is warranted. ALl reliable sources are saying the government has won. What is newsworthy is that the government won the election and the article has been updated accordingly. Although I do think waiting a fewmore hours wouldn't hurt as the BBC etc are still saying the government "won" in inverted commas so they're hedging their bets. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:35, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I saw this item in the portal, wondered why it was there and on further examination Times Online suggests this is generates more money than the Champions League (now on the Main Page) and the World Cup.
"That outstrips any previous prize on offer to a team or individual from a football match, including the Champions League final or World Cup final, any boxing match, horse race, golf tournament or tennis event, or any single event in the major sports in America, home to four of the world’s richest sports leagues".
This sounds astonishing to me. That it is the most lucrative game in one sport maybe but all sports? America? "£88m guaranteed [...] in the worse-case scenario". Can that possibly be accurate? I am unable to locate the catch here - there must be one somewhere. The Independent calls it "the most lucrative game in the history of British sport" and says a quarter of a town's population was there. --candle•wicke01:11, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Times lays it out pretty clear - with the new TV deal, the new parachute payments, the increased revenues etc., this one win is notionally worth this amount 'guaranteed', although accrued over a few years. I do doubt Bloomfield Road's capacity for the prawn sandwich brigade, and Olly seems a bit of a hippy and was actually wanting to lower ticket prices, but they aren't the big chunks. The reality is though, the nature of the league is that, for any club not in it for the mere money, is that most if not all is already spoken for. Realistic scenario, they could spend £40 over the season and still not be sure of staying up. At worst, they will blow it on doubling the size of their stadium, only to still get relegated and never see the ROI, or chase the dream and end up doing a Leeds. But is absolutely not realistic though to even begin to compare it to say Roger Federer's one match prize pot - for one, that will not be his only revenue that year as a consequence of winning, what with endorsements etc., plus, he does not basically have to spend 95% to even have a chance of staying at the same level next year. When you think of what Schumacher et al. actually earn, as one person, they clearly have in relative terms, much more riding on single outcomes. Anyway, this is ITN, you have about as much chance of this being posted as if you had just told the simple truth - it should go up because it was simply a better game to watch than that overhyped rubbsh that is the Champions League, and Olly is a one of a kind lunatic. MickMacNee (talk) 02:27, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I guess he means that "The biggest windfall in global sport from the outcome of a single event" isn't worth it since at worst you'll get bankrupt and at best you'd lose everything that you've won? –HowardtheDuck04:41, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
strong support if the european soccer championship (CL + UEFA Cup) can go on then this is certainly bigger. (and even before the above windfall commentLihaas (talk) 21:56, 23 May 2010 (UTC))[reply]
Suprising or not, I think this is notable sport event. Maybe I'm not objective because I'm Czech but Russian won should be post just the same in my view.--Sevela.p22:35, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support I was the one who originally wrote the guideline suggesting that the wc be replaced by the olympics in applicable years. However, since then the number of events on ITNr has increased, and the general ITN threshold has lowered. Those two things together result in my support vote. Also, there was some amount of support for the KHL final a couple weeks ago, which ultimately didn't go up, but that does suggest there is some support for an additional hockey item. Random8922:38, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, because it was my understanding that the Olympic ice hockey was replacing this in winter olympic years (see the note on ITNR for example). Modest Geniustalk23:35, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I thought that was the idea as well, but like Random says, there has been an increase in ITNR events. I don't believe that three items every four years is too much for an international sport like hockey. I do believe that this tournament itself is newsworthy in itself since it is the second-most attended in the championship's history and it had a somewhat surprising result. --PlasmaTwa200:14, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Posting. I believe MG raises a valid point. However, there is obviously a clear majority in support but more importantly, I believe Random89's argument is a strong one against MG's point and there is a decent update to the article. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 23:54, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
They most certainly do not, that term is only common in north american sports. Putting MVP with a link to most valuable player is probably fine though. (also, currently a six line story in my browser, mostly because of the adjoining picture) Modest Geniustalk03:17, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Oppose and remove from ITNR, at least on Olympic years. This tournament doesn't nearly have the best players in the world (an argument that was used quite strongly with the IPL). For example, Canada and the US (the Olympic finalists) had one player each from the Olympic teams on their roster.--Johnsemlak (talk) 03:03, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And on the other hand, Russia almost had all of its best players (and they lost). This event is not comparable to the IPL because this is a world championship and the IPL is a domestic league. --PlasmaTwa203:23, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If anything the fact that Russia lost with a mostly intact team is evidence that this tournament means less than the Olympics. This 'world championship' has a severe lack of top players. Russia has most of its top players mainly due to the randomness of NHL teams being knocked out of the playoffs. Anyway, I certainly support getting rid of bit about the Most Valuable Player completely. It's five lines on my computer. Is Dennis Endras really notable enough for ITN?--Johnsemlak (talk) 05:47, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose the first time he broke the record was perhaps somewhat significant but this one is not. I know some people have objected to putting it up the 100m every time Usain Bolt beats it but other then the far greater attention, that's a record which requires a significant achievement every time to beat. While climbing Everest is no small feat (as I think someone pointed out last time) now that he has the record he'll beat it every time he climbs akin to say Muralitharan beats the world record for most number of test wickets in a career everytime he gets one (although I appreciate it's easier to get a test wicket then to climb Everest). While something like when Schumacher was winning the WC for the 7th time or whatever may seem the same, those are usually things we put up whoever wins not solely because of the record (and I don't believe we're likely to put something we wouldn't put up otherwise everytime just because of a record). In terms of the 'nice round number' aspect which I presume is what you mean by 'landmark event' while I appreciate humans do use the decimal system and so people do tend to make a fuss about round numbers, even I do sometimes, I obviously still feel taking the record was more significant and particularly so hot on the heels of that, this just seems inconsequential. Perhaps try again at 25 or 30 or 50 or something. Edit: Actually I didn't read carefully and just realised we were doing the same thing last year. Well even more good reason not to repeat that mistake (which received several opposes in WP:Errors). Perhaps putting this one up would have been okay if we hadn't already put something up we shouldn't have. To put it a different way, we were never going to put Apa Sherpa up every time he climbs Everest so if we really wanted to put him up this time, we shouldn't have already put him up last time for no good reason. Nil Einne (talk) 12:53, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Thue's argument, + 3) Circumstances of his death amount to merely a single sentence of updating with no ref. If there's not much to write about, I question how significant this death is. 4) Most of the wikibio has no footnotes. Poorly referenced articles should be avoided, esp. when there is a {{contradict}} tag. --PFHLai (talk) 18:39, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It seems like everyone is climbing Mount Everest nowadays. Really diminishes the effect of that old idiom. I'd feel like a jerk opposing this, though.--WaltCip (talk) 17:48, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. IMO, ITN should be news which has some significance for world history, and not Guiness Book of Records. Thue | talk17:51, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The headlines are very misleading. "He just needs to scale the Vinson Massif in Antarctica" (source) and then I might support because a 13-year-old conquering the highest mountains on all seven/eight continents might be unique enough to be recognised. If it is posted now he would be nominated/posted again when he does this anyway. --candle•wicke21:39, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Its worth noting that whoever wins this will become only the sixth club in European footballing history to win the the 'Treble', something which I think should be included in the blurb --Daviessimo (talk) 10:44, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Treble is probably still worth noting but these trebles are becoming more commonplace (that's two in a row now) and less significant as a result. It's still worth a mention.--Johnsemlak (talk) 06:50, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support per ITNR. As for the 'treble' thing, I don't think that's particularly important - they are indeed much easier these days, primarily because changes to the entry requirements to the european competitions mean teams don't have to win their league twice in a row. Keep it short and simple. Modest Geniustalk18:32, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I think completing the continental treble, the first for either club, would still be highly notable, despite people's perceptions to the contrary. If its not included, then we can at least include the date of their last European Cup/Champions League win - 2001 for Bayern, 1965 for Inter. MickMacNee (talk) 19:48, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support and I would like to see the treble included (that the winner won it, not necessarily how many have won it before) because it is a significant factoid that adds a bit of colour to what would otherwise be a dry blurb. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:50, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Deep Depression ARB 1 (JTWC:01A) upgraded to a Tropical Storm, may hit somalia or Yemen anytime in 48 hours.
Deep Depression 01A has been upgraded to a tropical storm by JTWC and IMD. It has been named as Cyclone Bandu. The cyclone is now moving towards Yemen with wind speeds of 45 to 50 miles/hour. Nationwide warning is issued in Somalia and Yemen. Evacuation of coastal areas is going on.Tatiraju.rishabh (talk) 04:13, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support Sorry, I did not include the name of the Cyclone. The JTWC has issued warnings for Somalia and Yemen. The course of this cyclone predicts that it may landfall Yemen or Somalia by the next two days.Tatiraju.rishabh (talk) 04:13, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. 'May hit' is not important - what matters is what actually happens. If there is major damage and loss of life, I'll change my mind, but right now this is a non-story. Modest Geniustalk18:33, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We probably ought to be a bit more liberal with the description. I'm not saying we should glorify the incident, but the blurb as it is might lead readers to believe that the event is insignificant compared with the rest of the new items. Perhaps wait until we have an official record of the number of fatalities?--WaltCip (talk) 05:16, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I think article is a good shape now. I'm also going to post an warning on ITN error page, that even though we are posting two articles related to India this shouldn't be treated as Indian bias. --yousaf46505:17, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Cyclone Laila hits the Indian coast as it landfalls near Machlipatnam on 20th May. The storm grew to a large Category 1 cyclone on the way to its landfall. Till now, about 14 fatalities are reported. The government of India has ordered a large scale evacuation in Visakhapatnam and Machlipatnam. About 100,000 fishermen and people living in coastal areas have been evacuated. Streets in Machlipatnam remain flooded.
Oppose Category 1 hurricane isn't that impressive when it's recurrence rate is considered, compared to April when a ten death EF4 tornado (which comprises less than 2% of tornadoes) and 50+ tornado outbreak was rejected. Ks0stm(T•C•G)22:09, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support Death toll makes it notable. If 56 people died in Europe or North America this would be a clear case. So it should be here. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:30, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support 75,000 to 100,000 evacuated is also notable. But this needs major copy editing, e.g. "landfalls" isn't a word, and landfall isn't a verb, but a noun. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.138.70.132 (talk) 02:07, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
At any rate, weak support only because of the precedent set for these nat'l disasters. but then again, 2 india articles in the same day?Lihaas (talk) 03:52, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support It is known today that 56+ people have ben killed due to this cyclone. More than 20 fishermen are missing in Tamil Nadu and Andhra Pradesh, India.Tatiraju.rishabh (talk) 03:53, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - I don't think Laila is worthy of going up on the main page as so far it has only cause 36 Deaths according to reliefweb and the times of India http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf/db900sid/MUMA-85P3QV?OpenDocument&rc=3&emid=TC-2010-000097-IND. Esspecially when you consider that the NIO is one of the most deadliest basins with storms such as 1991 Bangladesh Cyclone, 1999 Orissa cyclone, Nargis each causing more than 10 000 deaths. I will retract my oppose should the death toll climb to a more respectable figure such as 150 or 200.Jason Rees (talk) 04:06, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I tend to support as "it is the worst storm to hit Andhra Pradesh in 14 years." per BBC. However, the article needs better refs, esp. for the death toll and the number of people evacuated. (The same BBC article says 23 deaths, not 56.) Prose about the impacts on Sri Lanka and South India also need wikifying, etc. Pls fix before showing this on MainPage. --PFHLai (talk) 04:25, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm... where in the article says "killing at least 56 people"? (I have to go off-line now, so someone please fix this. Thanks.) --PFHLai (talk) 15:49, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The COO of BP says a gusher of oil pouring from its damaged Gulf of Mexico well could be shut off as early as next week, but noted the plugging operation is "quite complex" and has never been tried in water that deep. (CNN)
French prosecutors seek a suspended prison sentence in the manslaughter trial of the former head of the Concorde programme over Air France Flight 4590 which crashed near Paris in 2000, killing 113 people. (BBC)
Cargo Vessel MV Dubai Moon sank in Gulf of Aden after it got engulfed in strong waves due to Tropical Cyclone Bandu. The storm disabled the cargo vessel and left it drifting off the Somali coast. 23 crew members were rescued by helicopters from the Royal Navy frigate HMS Chatham. Commander Simon Huntington of the frigate HMS Chatham described how his crew battled 26ft waves and 65 knot winds in order to save the 23 men on board the cargo ship MV Dubai Moon.[15]Tatiraju.rishabh (talk) 09:03, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What updated wikiarticle do you want to feature on MainPage? The article MV Dubai Moon is not created yet, and Cyclone Bandu is a redirect. Please draft a headline with the link to the ITN candidate article bolded. It's hard to determine ITN-worthiness without first reading the candidate article. Please also post the headline on P:CE without the bolding. (Pls see Wikipedia:In the news#Procedural.) Thanks. --PFHLai (talk) 12:45, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support: Thank you PFHLai for your kind support. I am not good in posting articles in the new page. I have created the page for MV Dubai Moon. Please post the topic in the main page.
Support. Where is the article? The Prime Minister has told MPs this is "the worst natural disaster in the nation's history". Damage is valued at 10 billion Polish złoty so far. Reuters says tens of thousands of people are affected and France and Germany are sending assistance. Auschwitz concentration camp was threatened as well. Other countries affected too, such as Czech Republic, Slovakia and Hungary. --candle•wicke19:16, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Support. Has received international coverage, albeit not particularly prominent, and is affecting multiple countries and seems to be massive in Poland. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:15, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support per WP:ITNR. Significant Venus probe, though the UNITEC item is just a small technology demonstrator so I'm not convinced it should be included in the blurb. Modest Geniustalk19:40, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Physicists explain why there is more Matter than Anti-matter in the universe
[18] This is a huge news in Physics and for our existence. We know that after the big bang anti-matter and matter were both equally in amount. Yet our universe today is almost all matter. Which is good for us since we won't be here then. So these physicists did experiments "that when anti-protons and protons collide, the resulting new particles show a one per cent skew toward matter over anti-matter". --Everyone Dies In the End (talk) 05:09, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well the magazine was an Issue of Scientific American, and also contained articles on leopard's skin and something about submarines sonar system. So can somebody find out which issue was it ? --yousaf46514:14, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
At least one police officer is killed and five other people are injured in a battle with a dissident army unit in Antananarivo. (Al Jazeera)
Numerous countries condemn North Korea for the sinking of the South Korean vessel Cheonan; North Korea denies involvement, and threatens war if sanctions are imposed. (BBC)
Cautious support - This appears to be a highly significant scientific breakthrough, however the Craig Venter article or appropriate related article needs to be expanded substantially.yorkshiresky (talk) 18:26, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support, though we need to be very careful how we phrase the blurb. It is NOT a synthetic cell or life form, but a synthetic copy of a genome, plus some minor modifications, inserted into an existing cell. And I certainly don't think the updated article should be Craig Venter, but a newly created one. Modest Geniustalk20:05, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In fact, we might like to use the title of the Science paper as the basis for our blurb: 'Creation of a Bacterial Cell Controlled by a Chemically Synthesized Genome' Modest Geniustalk20:27, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support To quote The Economist, "The result is the first creature since the beginning of creatures that has no ancestor".[19] To paraphrase the rest of the article, and all the other articles, artificial life has been created. However small, a huge line has been crossed. This is a major scientific development. Absolutely agree it should go up. HonouraryMix (talk) 23:16, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Very. Btw, I just changed "minimal" to "minimized", to try not giving the impression that the genome is proven perfectly minimal. Thue | talk23:30, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Does this need any more support? An event which doesn't come along very often (about as often as a cure for cancer or AIDS I suppose) so if it has been confirmed I am happy to support too, especially now that life will never be quite the same again. --candle•wicke13:35, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Candlewicke, no, there's plenty of support. What there isn't yet is an updated article. It seems people are getting put off by having to read the science. I'd do it myself if I wasn't at work. Modest Geniustalk14:31, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'd support putting this up, but the last thing I want to do is wade into a biology article and try to update it. (Chemistry, physics, astronomy, I'd give it a shot. But not biology.) Bradjamesbrown (talk) 00:25, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have juxtaposed two sections which basically deal with the same story. As no one responded to my call for doing so several hours ago on the talk page I went WP:BOLD. Let me also quote from the introduction to an article in the Christian Science Monitor, by all assessments a very moderate and insightful newspaper:
Less than a week ago, "Everybody Draw Mohammad Day" was just one artist's idea of a joke. By this afternoon, it had become a worldwide media event – the inspiration for street protests, fodder for cable news networks, and ammunition for armies of angry Facebook users who have vowed to boycott the popular social network.
I didn't actually !vote, but at the present it's a solid oppose from me. While this makes a great feature story, especially because it fits the Muslims-hate-when-people-draw-Muhammad narrative, the blocking of a website by a single country is not notable enough on its own. Several other countries have blocked Facebook or YouTube or Richard Dawkins' website for various reasons, and I don't see any particular reason why this incident should stand out. If there were a more concerted effort to block Facebook, then I might consider supporting, but, as it stands, that's not the case. -- tariqabjotu17:48, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
By this way, if this gets posted for some reason, please, for the love of God, don't post an accompanying picture... -- tariqabjotu17:51, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
With the poster which started this being non-free content there is little chance of that. At least as of now. __meco (talk) 18:19, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Unknown - Drudge would normally be all over this (and I understand his conservative affiliations, but this is the kind of hotbed story he would post to drive up hits). As it is, a link to a relevant news article would help me decide whether this is a debatable ITN posting.--WaltCip (talk) 16:22, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Support - Rather far-reaching implications. The existence of a single Facebook group having the power to cause an unequivocal shutdown throughout Pakistan seems like a story of interest.--WaltCip (talk) 16:25, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My reasoning is that this issue seems to be getting explosive, as ooposed to me attempting to make a point which Tariqabjotu asserted on another page. __meco (talk) 16:29, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's not just dead tree encyclopedias, they are digital, electronic media nowadays. (So are the pictures of Mohammed I would think.) -SusanLesch (talk) 17:50, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Based on Pakistan's little temper tantrum (no comment as to whether or not it's justified), I'm expecting Facebook to remove these groups within the next 24 hours. If that's the case, I don't think we'll need to post this item--WaltCip (talk) 18:14, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) - Support - article looks good and I agree that this has international implications. Not only have there been protests against Facebook in Pakistan, but the high court has asked the Pakistan foreign ministry to raise the issue in international circles. --Daviessimo (talk) 17:54, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, you gotta admit that's one heck of an update. Still not supporting putting the story on the Main Page, but you have to give them credit. -- tariqabjotu18:00, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The People's Republic of China blocks websites often, in a much larger country, and it isn't considered news. Pakistan isn't the PRC, but eleven days of blocking a U.S. website isn't of great importance. Also, DYK has already put this Everybody Draw Mohammed Day on the main page- twice, I believe. Do we really need to give it more publicity? Bradjamesbrown (talk) 18:38, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Not a particularly unusual event. Many countries - including soon Australia - block websites for all kind of reasons. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:53, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Countries all over the world block websites which don't adhere to their laws, including Child Pornography etc. So I don't think we will be publishing the whole list of sites each day. Pakistan has done just done what was required under the law. --yousaf46523:20, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment this is turning out to be a much bigger crackdown. now 450 sites including youtube are blocked. cant remember last time that such an en masse blockade happened. Pakistan of course is the only Muslim country reacting this way[21]--Wikireader41 (talk) 12:32, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Including wikipedia and still I'm editing it without any proxy, Isn't this supposed to be a joke, Or somebody reported it wrongly to businessweek ? --yousaf46503:23, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. An apology to Muslims as well? That's a large chunk of the world. It is a sensitive issue after all. There are those who take their religion very seriously so I support adding something about this, especially if multiple websites are affected. --candle•wicke13:57, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that this has some level of notability. However, your statement about giving in "to those who don't believe in free speech" seems to present an ulterior motive. Weak Support, as per the previous discussion.--WaltCip (talk) 15:22, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support from me also, as before. But shouldn't we keep this tied together. Everybody Draw Mohammed Day may have surprises in store for us yet to be revealed. __meco (talk) 16:36, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Oppose. Many many sites are blocked my many many countries, I cannot see how Pakistan's futile attempt at web censorship is notable in the slightest. Just to remind people, the Wikipedia Main Page is not a SOAPBOX. Physchim62(talk)16:38, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. No it's not- it happens to many websites in many countries across the world and even if it was, there's no way to post this without giving the impression of sticking two fingers up to Pakistan... HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:18, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Reread your own post. You seem to believe that showing that wikipedia and other websites are being censored by Pakistan is somehow going to offend Pakistan? --William S. Saturn (talk) 18:10, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I see what you mean now! What I meant was that we shouldn't be doing this just to stick 2 fingers up- we're not censored, but we're not offensive just because we can be. I actually oppose the nomination, though, based on what I said above- that websites being blocked is not really uncommon. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:13, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I did some research and I see that you are right that nations censor websites often. However, most have not received as much media coverage as this particular case. The reason it is notable is because of the Muhammad depiction controversy, which has become a major issue in recent years.--William S. Saturn (talk) 18:23, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment 'we shouldn't be doing this just to stick 2 fingers up'. I don't think we should do this for that reason. There are probably many people who will appreciate Pakistan's principled stand on this issue and will be happy that at least one country has the guts to do this. as always we should use neutral language. what makes this notable is the amount of media coverage it is generating not necessarily the event ( blocking) itself.--Wikireader41 (talk) 19:41, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Cartoonists thumb noses at Muslims by drawing their prophet. Some Muslims react. Some thumb their noses at Muslims again by having an "Everyone draw Mohammed Day". Pakistan, a Muslim country, reacts. Now we propose wikipedia thumbing its nose at Pakistan. The juvenile nature of it all is all the more reason for wikipedia not to join in by putting this on ITN. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:30, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I echo that. I have seen so often that editors squirm when it comes to being objective about news stories involving Wikipedia. We cannot hide our heads in the sand and delude ourselves, pretending it's not happening and recuse ourselves from dealing with it. __meco (talk) 21:08, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Huh Wikipedia Banned I think some somebody nominated it just as I nominated the IPL 4,( it was a joke as some of editor rightly pointed out).--yousaf46503:15, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - just came here to nominate this. The theft of anything that is worth approximately half a billion Euro's is notable in my opinion --Daviessimo (talk) 12:45, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Buildings across Bangkok have been set ablaze by anti-government protesters after the military stormed a protest camp in the centre of the city. (Al Jazeera)
support (in a day or 2 after official conference) The investigation into the sinking point to N. Korea can heighten tensiosn to more sanctions or even war (not that likely yet, but its a heightening of tensions)Lihaas (talk) 18:08, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If and when SK officially attributes blame for the attack to NK, that will be ITN-worthy (support). This has been building and building for weeks. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:24, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. With the confirmation (at least allegation) that the sub was sunk by torpedoes this should go on ITN. __meco (talk) 09:00, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I would think that a large national protest is a good contender but there have been so many of them everywhere on such a regular basis that ITN would soon be flooded with them. Is there anything particularly special that places this protest above others taking place around the world? --candle•wicke13:39, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I posted it. The current news item does not state that all protests are over. If all protests are over in a few days, then we can update the news item then. Thue | talk19:07, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have edited the post for language/content. We don't normally post details in a blurb [like which building were burnt], unless they are extremely important, which isn't the case here. Also, blurbs should be one sentence long if all possible. --ThaddeusB (talk) 19:26, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I would think the fact that the city is ablaze (twenty-seven buildings on fire according to the BBC and Reuters) and under curfew should also be mentioned in the blurb. I'm not happy with the bolded article's title, but was reverted by the article creator, and so have filed a move request on the article's talk page. --Paul_012 (talk) 19:56, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
support as per crashes like this having set a precedent for ITN. (Libya one was one recently, if memory serves--Lihaas (talk) 19 May 2010 (UTC)
Administrator note I'm not at all averse to posting this, but what am I posting? The article, while in good shape, has no information on casaulties (I assume because none is known) and "a plane crashed in Afghanistan" is barely news any more... HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:31, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: there is nothing to update currently. The article doesn't have every known detail, but it has all the main ones. Earlier reports of the wreckage being found were incorrect. If a blurb went up now, it would have to say something like "A Pamir Airways plane carrying 43 people goes missing and is presumed to have crashed killing its passengers." --ThaddeusB (talk) 00:34, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A Taliban suicide car bomber kills at least 12 Afghan civilians and wounds dozens more in an attack on a NATO convoy in the capital, Kabul. (TVNZ)
A suicide car-bomber attacks a police van in the north western Pakistani town of Dera Ismail Khan, killing 12 people. (TVNZ)
Suspected Maoists kill 35 people in a land mine attack against a bus in central India on a road roughly 280 miles (450 km) south of the state capital of Raipur. (CNN)
Specter is one of the best-known senators, serving since 1980, chairing important committees and representing one of the largest states (12.6 million people). It's very, very unusual for a member of Congress with that much experience to lose a re-election bid, especially in his own party's primary, although the circumstances are a little unusual here with Specter formerly being a Republican. This is now the lead story at the websites of The New York Times, CNN, MSNBC, Fox News, The Washington Post and The Los Angeles Times and, in a combined story with Rand Paul's win in Kentucky, at the AP/Yahoo News. And like I always say, if lots of people are interested in an item, and it meets all of the other criteria, that should be enough -- it shouldn't matter who's not interested. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:35, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
comment. this is not a presidential election, its local. its not even an actual election but a bid for re-election. so can you please prove how it passes criteria for ITN inclusion other than he had experience... -- Ashish-g5502:48, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(Responding to ashishg55's request for a response). First of all, it's not a "local" event. It's statewide in a state of 12.5 million people, more than Greece or Belgium. Secondly, this is of national interest because Specter is so famous in the U.S., which is why this is the lead story not just in Pennsylvania but in the entire U.S. national media and is also mentioned on the website of The Guardian (UK) and Sydney Morning Herald (Australia). I don't know what you mean by "not even an actual election but a bid for re-election." They're the same thing. If you mean that it's only a primary and not a general election, that is true, but what's important is that Specter has been axed -- he is now a lame duck and can't run again in November. It's not international, but then neither is gay marriage in Portugal or the oil blob off the Gulf Coast (not that I'm against either of those two events). -- Mwalcoff (talk) 03:09, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
He is certainly an iconic figure in US politics. He's credited with the Magic bullet theory of the John Kennedy assassination, well before he became a Senator in 1980. I'm hesitant about this one but he is certainly no ordinary US senator.--Johnsemlak (talk) 04:21, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We generally don't cover the elections of specific Senators or Congresspersons, regardless of whether they have served for long periods of time. We're establishing a fairly heavy precedent by allowing this one to go through.--WaltCip (talk) 04:48, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose a minister or opposition leader being purged in a factional battle is much more notable than a senator. It's also quite common in Asia e.g. China and India are also very large with giant corruption troughs, where factions just bin each other every month so that they can loot the treasury. No else we'll get junk e.g. Lalit Modi v Shashi Tharoor and everyone in every corrupt 3rd world country knifing and looting each other YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 07:25, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)Oppose - Mwalcoff, if this affects one state, in one country, how can that be considered anything other than local. This election is to decide the Democratic candidate, who will then stand for one senate seat out of a hundred in the whole of the US Senate. Also, since when did the population of an area impact upon how notable the news was. I mean are we to presume that an election in Utter Pradesh is 15 times more notable than this, because it has a population of 190m people? --Daviessimo (talk) 07:38, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I certainly agree the population of Pennsylvania is not something that makes this item notable. If there's any notability here it's in his length of service (both as a Senator and previous to that) and his significant role in several political events such as the Warren Commission and the Clarence Thomas senate confirmation hearings. However, I'd say oppose.--Johnsemlak (talk) 07:53, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I feel it's important that we don't confuse the American media with "international coverage". As I've said before, American items will inevitably get more Google news hits, for example, than the story of the minute elsewhere because the American media is simply larger than that of any other country. The reason, however, that I oppose is because this doesn't even register in the top 20 stories in Google's "world news" nor on the BBC's world news page, nor on its "Americas" page, though there is an article about these elections in which this particular result merits a sentence. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 10:06, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The defeat appears to be more down to his switch to the Democrats last year than anything else, and given the Yank media, that will make front-page news whether he was a novice or veteran senator. This wouldn't look like anything other than a local story to Main Page readers who didn't already follow Yank politics, so it doesn't carry any wow factor at all for ITN. MickMacNee (talk) 12:10, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Too local...and as Joe Lieberman showed when he lost his primary and still won as an independent, may have absolutely zero significance. --Smashvilletalk20:25, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I realize I'm outvoted and am not going to get worked up over it. However, I'd like to address a couple of misconceptions I was unable to respond to when I was at work all day today.
Firstly, my understanding is that Pennsylvania, like most states, has a "sore loser law" that prevents primary losers from running in the general election as an independent. Connecticut doesn't have that law, so Lieberman could win in November after losing the primary.
Second, the U.S. has three levels of government: federal, state and local. A local election would be one for mayor or county executive. Elections for governors or U.S. senators are state races, not local ones. But even if we were to dismiss "mere" statewide races, this was clearly a national story as made evident by the huge play it got in national media outside of Pennsylvania.
What I argue with is how an event of the same magnitude is rejected as an ITN item when a U.S. state does it but is accepted when a European country of equal or smaller size does it. If Pennsylvania were to legalize gay marriage, it would likely be rejected for ITN as "too local," but Portugal does the same thing and it goes up. To argue that "Portugal's a country and Pennsylvania's a subdivision of a country" is to use fallacious reasoning. The two laws affect their residents in exactly the same way, and Pennsylvania has more people and many times more readers of our site.
Finally, no one has ever been able to explain to me why an item predominantly of interest to Americans should automatically be rejected when Americans make up half of our readership, and most of our items are of interest only to certain groups (space fans, soccer fans, geopolitics buffs, etc.) Nothing else on the Front Page -- or on Wikipedia -- operates under such a clause. We have On This Day and Did You Know items mainly of U.S. interest right now, and on Saturday, the featured article will be about -- I am not making this up -- a pedestrian bridge in a Chicago park. They rotate those items with those of interest to other groups of people. I don't know why ITN can't be the same way. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 22:56, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
People give you plenty of reasons why, you just ignore them. You neeed to live with it. If you are going to get up in everyone's grill for not getting some American stories on the front page, then I am for sure going to go nuclear on some of my items that have been canned as being 'not global', or some other BS, while the latest Shuttle loo roll bullshit goes up. I'm with you brother, burn this motherfucker down already. It's a scandal it still exists, while people who actualy contribute content to the pedia, have to wait nearly a month for a DYK listing. MickMacNee (talk) 00:29, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Mwalcoff and your "World Series", with DYK there is no excess supply, for TFA, the other topics aren't contributing enough (classical music, culture, physics, maths, non Anglophone history etc) else there would be more variety. Obviously with ITN, there are enough decent articles but people haven't taken the oppoprtunity to bump off the featured unsourced stubs YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 07:17, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Mwalcoff, this issue has come up before and been debated ad nauseum, and will be again. I'd like to make a point about posting US elections. I do sympathize with your argument that the ITN preference for 'national' elections perhaps fails to recognize the significance of certain elections in the US's federal system. I do think the ITN community has tried to adapt--last year I believe a Senate special election resulting in the change of a 'supermajority' was posted--a type of election that is normally rejected because it is not 'national'.
However, we simply cannot be posting all elections that happen in the US. This wasn't even the main election, it was a primary. I know that the the primary was very significant in this case--it bumped off Specter--but the point is that in the US there are so many primaries, special elections, caucuses, referenda, etc, at the Federal, State, and local level. Very many of these elections seem important enough to make the front pages of US newspapers and even foreign press. We post an ITN item generally once a day--we could easily be posting US election news on a weekly basis on average if we didnt' have something of a filter.
Plus, I am not sure that there was so much interest in Spector among US readers. Beyond the Presidential election, the main congressional elections, and other top political stories, interest in US politics rapidly becomes confined to a narrow group of political junkies. I'd be interested to see stats on the readership of the related articles but I'd be surprised if they were astoundingly high.
Thank you for your well-reasoned response, John. I respect your point of view. I don't think I'm right all the time, I just get annoyed when people base their opposition on silly "rules" that don't make any sense. I'm sorry if I've seemed irascible. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:24, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Just, no. It's a state of one country (irrespective of its population - if we went by that criteria, we'd be posting results from the states of India!) and, has been pointed out, it's not even the main election. HonouraryMix (talk) 12:28, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - He can't be that 'unexceptional', when you look at how developed his English language article is and consider that this is someone who sang in Dutch and was a the height of his career 40+ years ago. He is also described as a pioneer in the opening line of his article. That makes me think he was a little more notable than you are giving him credit for, even if I haven't heard of him myself --Daviessimo (talk) 07:13, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The state of an article is not always a good indicator of notability, after all it only takes one interested editor to write a good article. Considering his entire career pulls less than 200 news hits I am certainly not seeing anything to indicate exceptional notability. For a death to make ITN, it should, at minimum draw news coverage in a variety of countries, and I'm not seeing that either. Of the <150 stories about his death, I see only 1 written in English, for example. (I would usually except the number of stories to exceed 1000 for an exceptionally notable death.) --ThaddeusB (talk) 17:57, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'd support it. Right now, ITN includes three sporting events followed by a miniscule percentage of the world's population and one of many launches to the ISS. Savidan20:04, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We can't support something just because...Doing so for the sake of it doesn't quantIFY ITN articles. At any rate the Iran-Brazil-Turkey issue is big right now.Lihaas (talk) 23:38, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think it does. A slow news week means the template is getting stale (as per the commenters above). When this happens we should have the discretion to lean towards putting up more marginal cases. This isn't an unworthy ITN posting, just a posting that in another week might be a more marginal case. --Mkativerata (talk) 00:18, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose the eighth country in the world and sixth in Europe doesn't seem like news. The Iran-Brazil-Turkey item is of much more importance. --PlasmaTwa203:09, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - those opposing on the basis of this being the sixth in Europe or eighth overall can't tell me that if the US or UK did the same thing tomorrow that they wouldn't support. Its also worth bearing in mind that Portugal is a predominantly Catholic country and thus, as with with Spain, this is more notable than is being made out --Daviessimo (talk) 07:21, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Facepalm Oppose If this only went up because its a slow news week, there are far better candidates on the page than this. The current blurb really does make this look insignificant, even if the Catholic angle means it isn't. MickMacNee (talk) 11:53, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ignoring the merits (or lack there of) for the article, posting something because it was a slow week is a terrible idea. It was also quite unnecessary as three other stories have now gone up in the last 12 hours. In the future, I suggest everyone judge articles by their merits only. --ThaddeusB (talk) 18:04, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I pulled this is favor of the snake story because: both happened on the same day, so neither is "fresher"; the snake one has stronger support; and the support here was based largely on the perceived lack of other stories available, which is no longer the case. --ThaddeusB (talk) 20:55, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support. This is particularly notable as it is a traditionally Catholic country as noted. Not only that but Pope Benedict has recently visited. This might not sound unusual but the visit was for several days and half a million people (!) attended one Mass at "one of the most popular Christian shrines in Europe". --candle•wicke13:48, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Iran-Brazil-Turkey nuclear deal
As per yesterday, this article section it should be on the main page news. Its more newsworthy than the article of the Brazilian fire. I've added more to that article now and added both support/criticism to balance it out.Lihaas (talk) 23:38, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The refusal of Israel to permit entry of internationally renowned American linguist and political activist Noam Chomsky to the West Bank on May 16, sparks intense debate in the country. (New York Times)
not true, much expanded and now with sections. (some biased editor claimed non-western sources as unreliable)Lihaas (talk) 18 May 2010 (UTC)
Support. Article is now adequate imo and this agreement seems quite significant, it would be nice if it could be posted while it's still news. I believe there's something going on with the UN Security Council which might form the basis for a sufficiently up-to-date blurb that would also mean it can go higher on the template, but I don't know the details- I wasn't listening to the news! HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 00:21, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~Facepalm Oppose On what planet is that section worthy of an ITN listing, yet the section directly above it was not? The IAEA hasn't even approved this deal yet. MickMacNee (talk) 11:48, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is probably the only time ever that a bus has even a chance at an ITN listing, without having to have been involved in a tragic accident killing all passengers. MickMacNee (talk) 20:05, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose It's a redesign of a bus. A redesign of an iconic one, sure, but I don't think a redesigned bus can be considered globally significant enough by any standard, to warrant its inclusion onto ITN. HonouraryMix (talk) 20:40, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'll support this. even though its not internationally significant by any means it does have encyclopedic value. -- Ashish-g5520:42, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
support its not internationally significant as Ashishg55 says but it is an institution, an icon, at least throughout the Commonwealth (which is a large part of the world).Lihaas (talk) 20:55, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not supporting but a Muslim Ms USA seems kind of more significant than a usual Ms USA winner (which I would of course oppose in normal circumstances).--217.118.66.101 (talk) 18:21, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment She is the first muslim to hold the title and there in lies the significance IMO. another glass ceiling bites the dust. and this I suspect is of interest to a broad audience and defies common stereotypes of Muslims. the citation from the mail has a nice pic of her in a bikini[23]. how common is it to see a muslim beauty in a bikini.--Wikireader41 (talk) 19:09, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
From the link you provided - "Pageant officials said competition records were not detailed enough to confirm if she is the first Arab-American or Muslim woman to win the contest". The first Muslim Chairman of the UK Conservative Party was much more worthy of notice imho, if we are talking 'glass ceilings', and it got no notice at ITN. MickMacNee (talk) 19:33, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
well pageant officials are not confirming it since they dont keep records. multiple RSs are saying that she is the 1st muslim. I think it is a more unusual for a muslim woman to win in a major world beauty pageant than to become a politician . Benazir Bhutto & Sheikh Hasina were very successful muslim women politicians who led their countries.--Wikireader41 (talk) 19:44, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How am I ignoring it? I just gave you the exact reason why it was a poor point. Seriously, your point is like saying Barack Obama being the first black President was irrelevant because Africa has had black leaders for years. It ignores far too much to be considered remotely relevant. And the CNN article doesn't read as if history has been made with this girl's epic struggle. Quite the opposite, both the criticism and praise for this development is decidely half hearted, because it quite accurately reflects that this is not actually that big a deal given her actual personal circumnstances. MickMacNee (talk) 21:50, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The competition itself is not significant enough. It is indeed made more so by the winner being the first [insert politically correct name of minority group] to win it, but still not that significant. The first Muslim cabinet minister was indeed more significant, but I don't feel even that was significant enough, mainly because she was unelected. Miss World, however, I might consider. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:52, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
actually its miss universe that should be posted (maybe miss world too). considering national winners will go to miss universe and runner-ups to miss world. while at it i think we should make it ITNR -- Ashish-g5522:57, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OpposeRafael Nantes is two sentences long and didn't exist before this. Additionally, he governed only 1.6M people. I doubt we'd post the death of a US mayor of a city with a similar population, so I see no reason to post this either. --ThaddeusB-public (talk) 14:03, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(BBC) The world's biggest collection of preserved snakes has been lost. The Instituto Butantan had 80,000 snakes and 500,000 scorpions and spiders, up to 100 years old, but burnt down (fuelled by the formaldehyde). Article is reasonable but needs expansion on the fire - Dumelow (talk) 09:40, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Err, I thought we didn't post articles with orange-level tags? With the exception of the fire, the entire thing is completely unreferenced. Modest Geniustalk00:01, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You are correct. The criteria state "Articles that are subject to serious issues, as indicated by 'orange'- or 'red'-level article tags, will not normally be accepted for an emboldened link." Luckily someone has added a few more refs, (including this good one) to the article and removed the template. The article has actually just dropped off the template as well - Dumelow (talk) 19:16, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
For any sport without an obvious top-level of competition in the world, let's stick with international/continental play and not mention domestic leagues on ITN, unless it's some really big news with profound significance with the story. --PFHLai (talk) 05:52, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Too much football items near each other. Incidentally, I don't think Premier League should be up the other day. ... (talk) 03:50, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I'd support when the actually announce the bid. Also, I'd note that we have three sports-related events showing now. I'd say that's enough.--Johnsemlak (talk) 04:00, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Too tabloid-ish. No, thanks. Would be more supportive if the UK Foreign Secretary resigned in a story involving Spanish spies and Russian mobsters bribing Taliban terrorists in a plot to disrupt a bid to host an upcoming G8/G20 meetings, ... etc. --PFHLai (talk) 06:11, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A recount of votes in the March 7 Iraqi election found no change in seat allocation for any of the blocs in the most populous province, Baghdad, in a setback for Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki, who claimed there was election fraud and won a court appeal for the recount after his coalition came in second by two seats. (CNN)
Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan flies to Tehran to join talks also attended by President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva aimed at convincing Iran of the advantages of sending its nuclear material abroad for processing to ease fears from the West that Iran wants to build a bomb. (BBC)
100 dead in government attack on rebels in Darfur; Sudan opposition arrested
(BBC) The Sudanese government has taken Jebel Moon in Western Darfur from the rebel Justice and Equality Movement, killing 108 rebels and capturing 61 in the process. Jebel Moon was apparently a key rebel stronghold and its capture has made the rebels fracture into small groups. The capture happened last month but has only just been reported. Both War in Darfur and Justice and Equality Movement have improvement tags on them. I will try to update one of them tomorrow if no-one else does beforehand (any help would be appreciated).
In the same country the Islamist opposition leader, Hassan al-Turabi, his family and leading party members have been arrested by the government for alleging vote rigging in the recent elections (though he has been arrested multiple times before). His article has yet to be updated. (BBC) - Dumelow (talk) 00:00, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Gigantic underwater oil plumes discovered in the Gulf of Mexico
Support - There really needs to be more focus on this event, regardless of how many times over the past month it's been posted, because it's that bad.--WaltCip (talk) 02:37, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think it should mention the huge underwater plumes. Apart from being a big come-on its the essence of the worsening scenario. __meco (talk) 19:07, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Haven't got a blurb in mind, but maybe we should have one that conveys certain facts? Phrases like "estimate" and "may", I believe, aren't desirable. HonouraryMix (talk) 19:41, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Am I the only one who feels the blurb sucks? I mean, it contains two weasel words (some scientists ... may be significantly worse than initially thought). I thought on something like
The Deepwater Horizon Old Spill is calculated to be flowing at a rate of 25,000–80,000 barrels a day.
Obviously not much going on with the article at the moment. I'll take a look around for some sources etc. later, and see if I can find a target result announcement date - Dumelow (talk) 18:48, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support I've added some text on the pre-election situation and election day violence, but we'll obviously have to wait for results before putting anything up. --Mkativerata (talk) 02:46, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Should be fairly straightforward one this. Major international cricket tournament with participants from 4 continents --Daviessimo (talk) 16:37, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The finalists are now known for the game on Sunday, so would suggest something like:
I think the article is now updated as much as sensibly possible without going into an over-by-over description of the match. Probably need to get it up soon. --Mkativerata (talk) 23:14, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Like I said on the talk page, I am happy to post the women's event but would first like to see some prose in the article. Cheers - Dumelow (talk) 08:54, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see the women's event as particularly significant. It certainly didn't receive similar levels of attention as other women's events we include eg. tennis. Remember, we did not post women's ice hockey at the olympics for similar reasons. Modest Geniustalk13:56, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think the first Women's Golf Major of the season even got nominated, whereas the Men's Majors get posted. Netherless, work it in the same blurb and I can support posting this. Bradjamesbrown (talk) 16:09, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'd have preferred some more refs in the race section but it's hardly a controversial area and I am sure it will get some more refs once it is on the main page. I'll post it in a mo - Dumelow (talk) 18:28, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose Came flying here when I saw it was up. This isn't a WP:ITNR event: if you look, it says F1, but qualifies that the only F1 events that go up are the announcements of the drivers and construction champions. This isn't either of them: it's only a single race. HonouraryMix (talk) 18:35, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The so called Triple Crown of Motorsport events do get posted (per ITNR). We have, for as long as I can remember, posted the Monaco Grand Prix as well as the Indy 500 and Le Mans 24. Monaco is the only F1 event that does get posted, though (besides the constructors and drivers championships). Cheers - Dumelow (talk) 18:39, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Lol, whoops. Was about ready to swoop asking where it said that, but taking a harder look I do now see Monaco just above the general F1 criteria. Now I feel embarrassed. Obviously changing now to support. Sorry folks. HonouraryMix (talk) 18:43, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No problem. I was going to add this pic of Webber, but he looks a bit weird at 100x100px. If someone better with images than me wants to try cropping it or whatever please go ahead. Until then I'll leave the shuttle up - Dumelow (talk) 18:47, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose His death was tragic and unusual, but not particularly ITN worthy, given that he wasn't all that well known of a footballer before his death, no international caps, little play in top-flight football. --Jayron3205:42, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strongest possible oppose, and a suggestion that you read the sources before nominating. The third sentence of the first link you provide makes it quite clear he 'failed to make a senior appearance' for Liverpool. His Wikipedia article makes it clear he was nowhere near notable enough for ITN. Modest Geniustalk13:39, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, misleading. Is there really any harm in nominating something you know little about to seek the opinions of others? I had never heard of him. --candle•wicke20:13, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Google admits it has been mistakenly collecting information people have sent over unencrypted wi-fi networks for the past three years and grounds its Street View cars from collecting wi-fi information. (BBC)
A fire at the Butantan Institute in São Paulo, Brazil, destroys its entire collection of preserved snakes—the world's largest—and nearly half a million arachnid specimens, including many novel and yet-unclassified species. (The Guardian)
The oldest and most well known domestic football cup competition. This year it's Princes v. Paupers or David v. Goliath, with Roman Abramovich's prima donna millionaires taking on the stoney broke poor men of Portsmouth, who don't even know if their club will exist next year, having financially imploded spectacularly, going from shock FA Cup winners just two years ago, to this year becoming the first Premier League team to call in the administrators. MickMacNee (talk) 12:31, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral. Unquestionably the most notable domestic knockout competition in the world, but we already have quite a lot of football items going up and it is after all a domestic competition. Modest Geniustalk13:45, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oh and a blurb that better fits our usual phrasing:
Support. It's the oldest association football competition in the world. Btw, if Portsmouth win, they will become the first club to win the Cup and be relegated in the same year. - JuneGloom07Talk? 14:41, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Nope. There have been 4 previous occasions. Man City 1926, Leicester 1969, Brighton 1983, Middlesbrough 1997. Still support though. Leaky Caldron14:48, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The clubs you've pointed out didn't win the cup though. I said that if Portsmouth win they would be the first club to have won the cup and be relegated in the same season. Not that it matters now though, lol. - JuneGloom07Talk? 16:19, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just to be clear, we've currently got the Europa League on there. Are we now going to add the FA Cup, next week the Champions League, and after that the World Cup? Seems a bit overkill? JACOPLANE • 2010-05-15 16:07
Oppose This is the problem with football, we already had the Premier League, now the Europa League, then the Champions's League, and then the World Cup- four football stories in around 2 months. I just can't get behind bumping that up to five. Bradjamesbrown (talk) 18:20, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - I can see the rationale for the Premier League, but not the FA Cup and, as others have pointed out, we've got the Champions League still to come next week --Daviessimo (talk) 19:13, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing here WP:ITN#Criteria that says we cannot have multiple soccer ITNs, even if the FA Cup itself is not on the preserved list, the notability & hook on this ocassion is clear - the EPL/FA cup double achieved by the winners. Leaky Caldron19:22, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But if that is the rationale then there is a good chance that tomorrow we could be posting another football item as Inter have already won the Coppa Italia and it is likely a point against Siena on Sunday will be good enough for them to win the Serie A title - thats another double in one of the big three leagues in Europe... and that's even before we get to Spain, where if Barcelona win tomorrow they will break not only the record for the highest absolute numbers of points in a La Liga season (99 points), but also the highest proportion of points won (86.8%) --Daviessimo (talk) 19:57, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think for next year and certainly for 4 years' time, we need to pre-plan which football items go up. I would have supported this, but with the champions league a few days ago, then the Europa League, now this and the World Cup to come, that adds up to a lot of cretins getting paid obscene amounts of money to kick a ball from one end of a field to the other football items on ITN- four in two months means (taking the average stint on ITN as ~1 week) that for at least half the time, there'll be at least one football story on ITN. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:50, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is exactly what we should be using ITNR for. But every time I oppose something based on relative numbers and it not being on ITNR, I get shouted down. Modest Geniustalk21:23, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose On balance, not significant enough. There is very good reason to exercise a bit of restraint in respect of football events in May lest we overload ITN with football and get accused of pro-England bias. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:54, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support if it is the oldest association football competition in the world and if it is "unquestionably the most notable domestic knockout competition in the world". That it is English (or whatever it is) is merely coincidental. If an "oldest" type of competition can be found from some other corner of the world I might support that too. It is very old and this an encyclopedia. The BBC says this "created history" and history belongs in an encyclopedia. I don't know how all these football competitions can appear on ITN and yet there might be no place for the oldest. As for others I presume Spain and the rest of them are younger then? Would that excuse work? There are of course all the immoralititties of paying these people obscene amounts of money to run around a field with a round object but there might also be something to be said for the winning team featuring a wife-cheaterand a girlfriend-stealer (as the media insists on reminding me) plus one or two ball-grabbers (that article says one of today's winners passed the ball to Mr. Henry before that incident thus proving that life really isn't very fair at all - as I write this I am reminded of hearing that one of the losers that night was on the losing side in that other final a few days ago. I'm going to stop now as this is all getting very odd. Still, by all outcomes, this is a chonic overdose of bad-people-winning-syndrome). But since all that counts as opinion I suppose it doesn't really belong here. Bringing me back to support. --candle•wicke03:05, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Not really. Party chairman is not the same thing as party leader, and is a pretty technocratic role. Plus the article is very poor. Modest Geniustalk13:47, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
New Zealand and South Africa's rugby unions make "landmark apologies" for excluding Maori and black players from their teams during the apartheid era. It seems at least as significant as Gordon Brown's ITN apology from a few months ago. And it is a different type of sports story than the result of a final. I'm not sure which is the best article. --candle•wicke05:47, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - both countries have apologised profusely for this over many years, across many fields of endeavour. They've merely reaffirmed it because of the Maori centenary. Modest Geniustalk13:49, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A stunning comeback, and certainly noteworthy, only the third time it has ever happened in the NHL, and the fourth time in all major league north american sports. Harriastalk01:57, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose posting anything on the playoffs until someone wins the Stanley Cup. Impressive achievement, but really not interesting to anyone except hockey fans that will already know about it. Incidentally, comparisons with other 'major league north american sports' are totally facetious. Modest Geniustalk02:20, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose they are the fourth team in professional sports history to do it, which makes it more notable then that perfect game, but still. --PlasmaTwa206:31, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Oppose sporting comebacks occur all the time. There was a massive turnover in the final over of Pakistan v Australia in the semi final of the T20 yesterday. No big deal. Report the final outcome in a couple of weeks. Leaky Caldron08:15, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: In each of the 3 sports' top leagues, there have been ~12,000 best of seven series. Out of those ~12,000, a 4-3 comeback after trailing 0-3 only happened 4 times, although this is the third time for the NHL. The other was the Red Sox in 2004. Never happened in the NBA. –HowardtheDuck13:19, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Jessica Watson
16-year-old Jessica Watson completes an unassisted solo circumnavigation of the world. [31]
Massive wall-to-wall coverage in Australia; significant coverage internationally (eg Times, Guardian. She would be the youngest ever to circumnavigate the world but there is controversy about whether she's done it properly. Putting this nom up a few hours early because I fear I'll be at work when it happens. If this gets support, the question is whether the blurb should say she is the "youngest" person to have achieved this feat. The Times says straight up that she is as a statement of fact and then later notes that the achievement might not be recognised by the World Sailing Speed Record Council. In my view that arguably means we can say she is the youngest as a fact - the Council isn't denying the achievement, it's just not recognising it. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:38, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If there's dispute as to whether or not she properly sailed around the world, I see no reason to post this on ITN.--WaltCip (talk) 00:11, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Its major news regardless of record status. For all intents and purposes, she's the youngest person to compete a solo, unassisted round the world voyage; recognition by WSSRC and that dispute is irrelevant to this discussion. –Moondyne13:20, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Difficult one. A remarkable achievement, but one which does not appear to have satisfied the criteria for a record (not only age, but also distance). Weak oppose for now, though I might change my mind. Modest Geniustalk13:52, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
She is certainly in the news, but the issue of the record is a major controversy. Records for youngest are no longer recognised both in international sailing, and by other bodies such as the Guinness Book of Records. This is for the obvious reason of not wanting to encourage attempts by people far too young to do it safely. She also did not travel far enough to satisfy formal requirements for around the word. The circumference of the earth is around 40,000km. She travelled around 26,000km. Someone suggested that her trip might more accurately (albeit outrageously) be described as circumnavigating Antarctica. HiLo48 (talk) 21:49, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My thoughts 24 hours after nominating this are as follows. The feat is very newsworthy and most reliable sources (eg Reuters) are saying she is the youngest to "sail around the world", staying away from the term "circumnavigate". That is ITN worthy. However, obviously there is controversy about whether her journey constituted a circumnavigation and she clearly won't be given any official records. So I think the difficulty in having a meaningful blurb that won't create (justifiable) controversy at Main Page:Errors probably outweighs the benefit of putting this on ITN. Which is a shame because I do think it is ITN worthy. --Mkativerata (talk) 00:38, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
At least one person is killed and 42 injured as live ammunition is fired during clashes between interim government supporters and backers of ousted president Kurmanbek Bakiyev in southern Kyrgyzstan. (Xinhua)
Iran announces that it hanged 5 prisoners convicted of the so-called crime of "enmity against God", at least 4 of whom were members of Iran's Kurdish minority. (VOA)
The last space shuttle mission is scheduled for this year. Is this it? If not, let's wait until that last lift-off. __meco (talk) 17:21, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Per WP:ITNR we post all shuttle launches, but this is even bigger because it is Atlantis' last. The last ever space shuttle will be Discovery in September. — Cargoking talk 17:23, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - it's the last mission of the Space Shuttle Atlantis, which is certainly notable. I think only four or five were built in total and two have been destroyed so I think we can list the retirement's of each of the remaining shuttles when they happen --Daviessimo (talk) 17:27, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I believe there was some discussion here whether we should reconsider that the last time a shuttle went up. __meco (talk) 18:09, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support, Completely agree with GW above. This is the FINAL mission and is just as significant as the maiden mission. Aalox (talk) 18:45, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment If this is the FINAL mission, wouldn't it make more sense to highlight the landing instead of the launch ??? Hektor (talk) 20:37, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We usually post the launches. I would suggest posting the landing of Endeavour's final flight as well as the launch, but in this case, the launch should do. If there isn't much news at around the time of landing, we could consider that as well. --GW…21:07, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, the peanut gallery is going to love this. I can't wait to see the T:MP thread started 10 minutes after this goes up! I need a better blurb, though. Cargoking- your suggestion implies that there might be future launches that aren't successful and the lack of a destination in it makes it sound as though this was done for NASA's amusement. I'm going to stick this up now, but suggestions are welcome. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:20, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I was going to go with something almost identical to that, but it implies its the shuttle's last mission to the ISS, not its last mission full stop. I used the suggested image though (after downloading it, cropping it and re-uploading it). HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:53, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It is also possible to use "final scheduled mission" to allow for future launches of the orbiter (which are not yet planned. Arsonal (talk) 21:55, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Addition. I did not notice this is already on In The News. I suggest changing the blurb to the above, at the very least, change the wiki link to Final Scheduled Mission as that is more notable then a successful launch.--Aalox (talk) 23:36, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Times Possibly time for this to make a reappearance. The government seems to be pretty keen to end it now. Apparently there have been two deaths and at least 20 wounded since last night. Article has yet to be updated - Dumelow (talk) 11:45, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm indecisive on this one. It does appear the government has shifted to a more hardline approach, but this also means we may expect another incident which makes ITN on its own accord. __meco (talk) 17:25, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - This is an ongoing situation so I think we can list this on the main page again. Its easy enough to update the blurb if things change while its on the main page --Daviessimo (talk) 17:30, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(Sky News) 17 dead and 161 killed overnight. How do we feel about: "At least 17 people are killed and 161 injured as Thai government forces clash with red shirt protesters". Though there is plenty of scope for improvement in that - Dumelow (talk) 11:03, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, to answer the question, possibly... no. But people get blown up in Iraq and shot in the United States quite regularly yet the most serious of such incidents feature on ITN. In this case (besides the death, injury and general misery) several important officials have been fired or suspended and the mine owner has gone missing. There is also significant evidence of international coverage as displayed in the article. Aljazeera, BBC, euronews, Press TV and so on. --candle•wicke01:13, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Sayeeda Warsi is one of the few senior tories I have a shred or respect for, but this isn't that significant even in the UK. As a side note, I don't think she is even the first minister of Pakistani origin. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 11:38, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Gunfire and explosions occur in the capital Bangkok after the red shirt protesters ignore a government deadline to end their street protests. (Al Jazeera)
5 people are killed and a further 19 injured in two bombings in Baghdad. (Xinhua)
Three alleged organisers of Moscow suicide bombings in March 2010 are killed after apparently resisting arrest. (BBC)(Al Jazeera)
A report from Human Rights Watch claims that the Israeli army unlawfully destroyed civilian property in the Gaza War of 2008 and 2009, while the Israeli army asserts they only targeted property used for combat or terrorist activities. (BBC)(Ha'aretz)
President Goodluck JonathannominatesNamadi Sambo to serve as Nigeria's vice president. I'm nominating this to see where the discussion goes. Again, apologies about being unable to sign - I have no time right today to work out what is going on but I'll check tomorrow. ;)
But strong support a new chief of state (or vice decision) is big. and the powder-keg taht is Nigeria means this sets some solid precedence, Goodluck will now run again it seems.Lihaas (talk) 23:02, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The article isn't very good, and I can't imagine there's much interest among the vast majority of our readers in the vice-president of any African country, no matter how populous. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:19, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Goodluck becoming president is significant. His vice president is less so. And the mere nomination of his vice president is less still. Modest Geniustalk23:56, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose A coincidence is all it is, I would rather an updated item about the original disaster was posted than this. For the record: "Venezuelan energy officials said that the sunken natural gas rig posed no environment threat and that no workers had died".[34] Coincidence aside, I cannot even see how the rig is notable enough for an article even. MickMacNee (talk) 19:26, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Source It is "India's largest offshore drilling and oil field services provider", it is supposed to have "suffered a major setback", it was "one of Aban’s biggest money spinning rig earning $358,000 dollars or about a crore and a half rupees a day" and "it is one of the biggest revenue generators". And now I want to sign but I can't seem to find how this is done...
Oppose On balance, not significant enough. Candlewicke: you seem to be having the same irritating problems with the sign button as me. I just reverted to the old formatting by clicking "take me back". --Mkativerata (talk) 20:52, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Type 4 tildes the old-fashioned way! Or change back. Or both. I think that's useful for the article and may just save it from deletion but it's not significant enough for ITN, thus I oppose. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:54, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose since there's no widespread effect, nor major loss of life. I wasn't aware there was ever a method of signing OTHER than typing four tildes! Modest Geniustalk00:14, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A bomb planted inside a grocery store in a mainly Shi'ite area of Baghdad kills three people and wounds 23. (TVNZ)
Irish authorities launch an investigation into last night's "violent incident" which saw protesters attempt to storm Dáil Éireann in a campaign against bank bail-outs. (The Irish Times)(TV3)
The final of the 2009–10 UEFA Europa League takes place in Hamburg. Not as straight forward as the Champions League, but given that football is without doubt the biggest sport in Europe, I feel there is a strong argument for this to go up. The total population of the nations from which there are participant clubs is half a billion and even though it is the second highest level of competition in Europe it is still a huge deal. Probably a good compromise if the winners of Serie A, La Liga and the Premier League aren't listed --Daviessimo (talk) 21:44, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Or maybe its a test to see how many of those who freely supported the inclusion of the NCAA finals, as the second level of basketball in the US, will be openly hypocritical and oppose this. Who knows? -Daviessimo (talk) 09:06, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No that was a joke. Come on Howard! I nominated this last year and have always felt it should be included given how big a deal football is within Europe. However, its worth pointing out that last year this was opposed on the basis that the NCAA finals were not included. This years the precedent has been changed... but who knows... my experience is wiki editors can often be a fickle bunch (and yes even I fall under that banner - fickleness is a wiki disease). --Daviessimo (talk) 09:23, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The NCAA made it because Butler made it. Last year two Ukrainian clubs made it to the semifinals and even that wasn't posted. The NCAA blurb was, like all ITN discussions not in WP:ITNR, not stare decisis. –HowardtheDuck09:25, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(un-indent) Who says it is? My point is that one of the fundamental outcomes of including NCAA was the that rules applied in the past that only the top level of sport in a given area should be included were false. My nomination, as with last year, is that within football in Europe, the Europa League (or UEFA Cup as was known) is a major international competition second only to the Champions League as a UEFA Competition. I feel that last year, the fact that Shakhtar Donetsk became the first Ukrainian side to win should have been included, but other users (and I'm sure you will have had something to say ;) were opposed on the basis that a) it was the second level UEFA competition in Europe b) the NCAA finals had not been previously posted. If you have a valid opposition then make that clear and explain why, rather than throwing out semi cryptic sarcastic comments. --Daviessimo (talk) 09:38, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And I dunno where the top-level "pseudo"-rules came from. And with the awesome record by the four clubs remaining as told by Candlewicke, I don't think we'd see any type of "Butler" (near) upset this year. –HowardtheDuck
Yes, but your rationale in that instance (there had been loads of Rugby blurbs before so this could 'balance' it), is exactly the type of stare decisis you've just accused me of. The UEFA cup may not have the underdog factor (although if Fulham make the final it would certainly be a story given that they have never won a top level competition), however it has a far higher level of international interest. Clubs from over 40 countries are eligible. My argument is, we have established that second level competitions can be included, although they should be analysed on a case by case basis. In this instance there is a huge amount of international interest and a massive target audience and I feel that these factors combined with the fact that football is the most popular sport on the planet warrant inclusion --Daviessimo (talk) 09:50, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As I have said earlier, not everyone wants to win this: the defending champion may have been more thrilled playing at the Champions League qualifying than repeating as champions, although clubs from weaker countries may want to win, clubs from stronger nations don't. I even read that English clubs don't care what happens here, although that may change with Fulham (which hasn't won anything), and Liverpool (their only chance for a silverware this season).
And I really don't buy that international interest argument since there are 40 nations competing, considering that Europe per se is split into 40+ nations and the mainland of North America (which has a larger land area than all of Europe) only has 10 countries. If we're into that, then the ASEAN Basketball League (6 countries) has a "higher" international interest than the National Basketball Association (USA + Toronto). –HowardtheDuck09:58, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Where have you got this idea that Shakhtar didn't want to defend their title. You can't choose what competition you play in. Shakhtar finished second in their league and had an opportunity to qualify for the Champions League. You not asked, what would you rather do, have a shot at qualifying for the Champions League or enter the Europe League, you're given the chance to qualify anyway. Shakhtar had to attempt to qualify, but they lost meaning that the entered the Europa League. They then lost in the last 32 game against Fulham and were simply knocked out of the competition. They didn't withdraw because they didn't want to defend their title or whatever you think they did.
As for how big it is, where have you got the idea that only little clubs like it. Are you really saying that clubs such as Liverpool, Juventus, Valencia, Benfica and Roma etc are small clubs, because all of them played in this years tournament. Of course teams want to qualify and win the Champions League because it is the top level of football in Europe, but that doesn't mean that they would inherently turn down winning the Europa. The way football works is that if you finish in the top 2 or 3 spaces in you're league you qualify for the champions league (top four in England, Spain and Italy) and if you finish 4th or 5th (5th or 6th in Eng, Ita and Spa) you qualify for the Europa League. All the clubs they reach the latter stages are still big clubs with massive global fan bases and are not little teams. --Daviessimo (talk) 10:21, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You can choose a competition -- if you play well. Shakhtar would've been more thrilled to play in the Champions League but they crashed out so they played. They're a small club so they'll take it. Bigger clubs don't take it seriously, unless it is their chance for silverware, which is the case for Liverpool. I didn't say all teams that competed here are small clubs: I said small clubs are more thrilled to play in the "main" (Champions League) competition than this one. While the bigger clubs don't really care that much. It's like the FA Cup and the League Cup. –HowardtheDuck10:27, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry Howard, but you have a distinct lack of knowledge of football if you think Shakhtar chose which competition to play in or if you think that big clubs that are participating within it, do not care. I would also state that there are no 'small clubs' that play in either UEFA competition. This is not like the FA cup or any other domestic competition were any team is eligible to enter. In order to play in either the Champions League or Europa League you have to have finished as one of the top 5 clubs in you country (for smaller nations this if often the top 2 or 3) or you must have won your nation's domestic cup competition. Also your assertion that the 'biggest' clubs in Europe don't care about the UEFA cup is a fallacy, because why would you care about a competition that you are not participating in. What is important is that the 80 or so clubs that do enter the competition care about it, which is very much the case. Fundamentally your argument seems to be based around you inside knowledge of the goings on inside Shakhtar and I have to ask where are you getting this information from. Do you know Mircea Lucescu personally? --Daviessimo (talk) 08:35, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As what I've said earlier, Shakhtar could've chose, and I'd bet it'll be the Champions League. what competition they'd end up playing by playing well in their domestic league. Since they did not qualify in the Champions League, they were just happy to receive Europa Cup berths. I know how the system works, such as Linfield being in the Champions League (qualification) since time immemorial. You don't have to post a lengthy explanation for that. Everyone knows that all teams from all European leagues would kill for a place in the Champions League. –HowardtheDuck16:20, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But that is obvious!. Of course teams want to qualify for the Champions League, because by doing so it means they must have finished higher in the league. No team is ever going to prefer finishing fifth and qualify for the Europa rather than finishing fourth and qualifying for the Champions League. But that doesn't mean the Europa is a nothing competition. It just means it is the second tier of UEFA sanction football --Daviessimo (talk) 16:59, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Let's put it this way: I dunno about the other 3, but Liverpool is on track in losing the Premier League. If they win the Europa League, it'll be their only piece of silverware this season. If they hold an open top bus parade around town it means winning this competition is a big thing; if no, then it probably doesn't deserve an ITN blurb. –HowardtheDuck05:31, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well if you don't know about the other three clubs, why are you commenting as if you are an expert on football so much? Also since when did having a victory parade become a rational reason for including a sporting items? Half the team sports listed at ITNR would not be included if we followed that odd logic. The simple fact is that the UEFA cup is the second tier of UEFA sanctioned football, has participants from almost 50 countries that have a combined population of almost twice that of the US, is a top level competition in the world's most popular sport and is watched by tens of millions of people across the globe. I have nominated it here as a compromise because, despite being suggested before, it is highly unlikely we will list the league winners of the three biggest football leagues in the world (Premier League, Serie A and La Liga) and it seems very odd that in what is the very centre of the world's most popular sport we only have one ITN listing per year, whilst even Rugby has two! --Daviessimo (talk) 07:36, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Actually I could've looked at the articles to see if the other three teams have a chance of winning silverware other than the UEFA Cup. I know for a fact that Liverpool are facing an uphill battle in the Premier League.
As for victory parades, I thought it was standard fare in Western nations? North American big 4 leagues do it, Liverpool and Barca did it when they won the Champions League, Italy won it when they won the World Cup, Munster did it when they won the H-Cup.
P.S. I have no problem in having three separate blurbs on those three leagues (I've even supported adding the FA Cup on even-not-so-special-situations, but that doesn't mean we should add all cup competitions. For example, the Italian Cup has had dismal attendance.); I'm skeptical on this one. As you've said it, it's second-tier. Just as people who opposed the NBA since it is "a domestic league" with the reasoning that "a domestic league is a domestic league", same with this one: "second tier is second tier".
I'm not entirely convinced that "has participants from almost 50 countries that have a combined population of almost twice that of the US, is a top level competition in the world's most popular sport and is watched by tens of millions of people across the globe" argument. In the final, there are only two teams competing, for the maximum of two countries, with other countries watching when they have players competing (for example South Koreans watched Manchester United played in the UEFA CL final). Not even majority of the football fans in that country might watch it. For example, when Manchester United won their first Champions League, most Leeds United fans didn't watch.
And what's the problem with "my football credentials"? We people discussed the NCAA item and nobody asked about each other's NCAA basketball credentials. I don't think those who opposed the NCAA basketball championship have probably seen a college basketball game in its entirety and know what is happening. –HowardtheDuck08:16, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Firstly, you're the one who said "Let's put it this way: I dunno about the other 3". I was simply commenting that is was a very odd thing to say when you are attempting to argue the ins and outs of European football, as it is you yourself admitting a lack of knowledge. You were also the one who seemed for some reason to believe Shahktar Donetsk chose what competition they played in, an assumption I can only assume was based on you not understanding the way teams qualify for European tournaments (or why else would you think a team would ever rather finish second and qualify for the UEFA cup rather than finish 1st and qualify for the Champions League).
Secondly, you state that a 'second tier competition is a second tier competition'... well is that case for all sports except those in the US? The NCAA basketball is not the top level of basketball in the US, yet that got included, or are you going to rebut this with your oft played Stare decisis response. Funny how that only pops up with items you are opposed to and not ones you support. The simple fact is you can oppose an item for any reason you want, but when a precedent has been set that allows a second tier competition to be posted, simply responding I oppose because it is a second tier competition is inherently flawed. Either that or you are openly admitting you are biased. I opposed the NCAA item until someone could show there was enough international interest in the competition, which was proven, so I ultimately had no problem with its inclusion on ITN. I can prove plenty of non-European interest in the UEFA cup, or does the 'international interest' rule only apply to items that you support?
At the end of the day, you and I can argue till we are black and blue, but it is ultimately pointless so its better to just let other people have a say when the time comes --Daviessimo (talk) 09:06, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support: it's a little bit of bias I'll grant you, but Fulham finished this season in the bottom half, and very nearly caused a huge huge upset. f o x12:06, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The support seems to be here but I wouldn't want to see it posted without at least some text in the match section, at the moment it is entirely statistics - Dumelow (talk) 19:34, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The second best competition for a sport from only one continent? This would be equivalent to posting the results of the NIT for college basketball. I'm all for more stories on the front page but this is just far too small. 140.209.23.162 (talk) 22:14, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How can this go on? The Asian/African CHAMPIONS LEAGUE winners don't and a 3rd rate (2nd rate) tournament gets on here becasue its UEFA? Even the Copa Libertores doesnt get there?Lihaas (talk) 23:05, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Asian Champions League is very poor. Adelaide United came second once and the other Australian teams in it, most of their players who ever played in Europe played in third-flight football. The Europa League is mostly the 4th-6th best teams in each country, roughly. Most of the ACL players would struggle in the worst 2nd flight teams and some can't even get a game in a 3rd fligth team YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 00:22, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose. Remember this is a consolation tournament for those teams which weren't good enough for the Champions League. The only people who pay any attention to the tournament are those who support teams in it (at least until the final or maybe semis). Nowhere near significant enough. Modest Geniustalk00:09, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment People seriously need to get some perspective here. UEFA is the biggest continental football association in the world, not just by a mile, but by a galaxy. The Champions League is the biggest continental club competition similarly. These are international club tournaments of top level professional teams playing the almost universal European national sport (I think Albania is still mad for handball). UEFA encompasses fifty three nations. It isn't a college tournament, and it isn't a 'World Series'. UEFA could create a third tier, and even a fourth tier tournament, and the international interest in, and coverage of, those tournaments would still be bigger than some of the stuff that regularly sails onto the front page for no other reason than technically, it is the top level of some sport, which doesn't even have to be that popular. The Europa League passes every single other criteria for 'international significance' that has ever been used to justify a sporting item. It was expanded from the UEFA Cup into the Europa League format, and given a title more like their most famous competition, precisely because broadcasters can't get enough of it. It would be quicker to list the number of non-European countries that did not broadcast it, than those that did. [35]. Failing to get into the Champions League and having to settle for the Europa league, is like failing to score with Gwyneth Paltrow and ending up with Kiera Knightly. Some of the stuff that does make ITN is frankly, more like having to accept Mylee Cyrus or nothing. If being a second tier tournament (I cannot even call it a 'consolation' tournament without laughing at the absurdity) is the only reason it cannot go up, then pretty obviously, it's not the nomination that is in error. MickMacNee (talk) 02:03, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The tournament is full of second rate teams that couldn't cut it in a big boys league. Nothing else needs to be said. The appeal is limited to a fringe group of people. It should not be included on the front page. 97.116.23.94 (talk) 02:38, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose: Is there a limit on number of soccer/football tournaments which make it to ITN? I think every other tournament is posted on ITN. On other hand many good tournaments from other games such as cricket have to face the axe. I agree this is league of second rate teams and should be pulled down from front page. --GPPande07:51, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Football is the most popular sport in the world, so naturally it should have the most postings. The inclusion or exclusion of other items should have no bearing on the inclusion or exclusion of this item. I am getting really tired of people essentially saying "a sport tournament I supported didn't make it, so most other sport tournaments shouldn't be featured either." (The converse argument - "I sport I don't support made it, so every other sport should too." is equally annoying.) --ThaddeusB (talk) 17:02, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Also, one shouldn't read much into the late opposition after the posting - this seems to happen for nearly every sport, and sometime other stories too. It likely doesn't reflect the true balance of opinion because people who are unhappy with a decision are many times more likely to show up after the fact to complain than people who are happy about it are likely to show up to say "I agree". --ThaddeusB (talk) 17:02, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I would also add that it is ridiculous to assert that the teams playing in this competition are second rate teams. Generally speaking, the teams that enter this competition at the beginning of the season finish between 4th and 6th in Spain, Italy and England, 3rd or 4th in Germany and France and 2nd or 3rd from most other countries. Next season big clubs such as Lyon, PSV, Liverpool, Man City, Porto, Galatasaray and Werder Bremen will be playing in the competition and anyone who thinks they are nothing clubs has no idea what they are talking about. Just because the top ten biggest clubs in the whole of Europe are not in the competition shouldn't detract from the fact that it is still a big deal in footballing terms --Daviessimo (talk) 17:43, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Did it ever occur to you that the reason the clubs you describe as "big" are in this competition because they are second rate and are not good enough to qualify for the Champions League. The American NIT has big teams as well but the competition pales in comparison to the NCAA. To include Mickey Mouse Cups and tournaments cheapens the significance of the important teams. 97.116.18.242 (talk) 20:40, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry but this ridiculous comparison of the Europa League (an international, professional football league) to the National Invitation Tournament (an amateur college basketball league in America) is quite frankly astounding. I mean there is just no comparison and the attempts to do are, well, unbelievable. To again use the example of the (likely) teams in next seasons competition, you have Porto (Champions League winners in 2004, with 24 Portuguese League titles), Liverpool (Champions League winners in 2005, runners up in 2007), and probably Lyon (who've won the French League title a record 7 times in a row between 2002 and 2008 and got to the semi finals of this seasons Champions League). At the end of the day I'm still find it amazing that a team that ranks 5th of 92 professional teams in England or 3rd of 50+ in Germany is considered to be a 'second rate' team. I mean the players are so second rate that we won't be seeing a single player who played in the Europa League this season, appearinginthisyear'sworldcup... --Daviessimo (talk) 22:28, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think the NIT/Europa League comparison is that out of whack. The Europa league is definitely a bigger deal but both are consolation tournaments which the big teams don't compete in. As far as this 'second rate' comment, I would certainly rate Fulham as a second rate European side. It's pretty much inconceivable that they would win the Champions League or even qualify for it. Liverpool and A. Madrid are bigger teams of course. Overall, FWIW I personally oppose this posting as there are more prestigious football competitions.--81.200.20.249 (talk) 14:41, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(unindent) - Well by that argument are we to presume that teams such as APOEL Nicosia, FC Unirea Urziceni or Debrecen are subsequently first tier teams just because they participate in the Champions League? The simple fact is that in football in Europe the best clubs are concentrated in a handful of leagues, but because the Champions League is for champions, you end up with smaller teams from smaller countries competing in the CL and big teams from bigger countries competing in the Europa League. Admittedly the Europa League is not the same competition is was back in the 70s and 80s, but the assertion that there is a definitive class break between teams in the two competition is completely false because the rules are inherently designed to make sure teams from smaller leagues can still have their day with the big boys. --Daviessimo (talk) 19:09, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, making the Champions League definitely doesn't mean they're 'first class' teams, but I think the old G-14 is an indicator of which teams are 'first-class' Eurpean teams (though I'd say they're have been some power shifts since then.) Another way to look at it is the teams that make the last 16 of the Champions League, which excludes the clubs mentioned above, and by definition excludes any clubs in the Europa League. --Johnsemlak (talk) 04:10, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If my A-level in politics serves me (it was a while ago and my knowledge of German politics is slim), then there'd have to be an election if she actually lost her majority, which would be a much better item for ITN. Let's see where this goes, though. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 04:35, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, Candlewicke is right. The German "upper house" (Bundesrat) is not directly elected, but composed of the regional governments - and with the government of North-Rhine Westfalia due to change following its election defeat, Merkel's coalition indeed loses its majority there (while retaining their majority in the Bundestag). It's definitely top news in Germany, don't know about international notability though. --Roentgenium111 (talk) 17:25, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Government of a large country like Germany losing its majority in the upper house of a legislature is ITN worthy. This is on a par with Scott Brown winning Massachusetts, which was on ITN. Support for this is conditional on reliable sources drawing a direct link between the outcome of the regional election and the loss of the upper house majority. --Mkativerata (talk) 01:08, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Firstly, even if the US Democrats lost their senate majority, I do not think it would, or should, justify an ITN post. Combined with the fact that German government seems to operate as a perma-coallition, I cannot see the wow factor of this event at all, outside of national interest. It is one of those nominations that would seem to require a blurb of nearly five lines to explain to the average non-German reader why it is internationally significant. MickMacNee (talk) 19:59, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral They will continue to do so until US stops mentoring the dictator, or else a Chief Justice is removed forcefully, thus initiating a similar movement to Lawyers' Movement. --yousaf46502:38, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. This is serious enough if confirmed. There is nothing new or unusual about planes crashing or people dying in Iraq either but that doesn't stop them being in the ITN section at this moment. It is also reported here and this is something from Canada. Strangely enough, the US media does not seem to be reporting what the Red Cross has said. --candle•wicke20:25, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. On balance, insufficiently significant. The Red Cross is merely confirming something that the US isn't denying, and there's no firm claim that there is anything significantly problematic about the prison. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:33, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support I think this is really significant, US is still insisting that they only have one black prison in Afghanistan.--yousaf46502:13, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
United States Congress begins hearings on the massive oil spill threatening sensitive marshes and marine life along the Gulf Coast as the three companies involved in the drilling activities that unleashed the environmental crisis blame each other. (Chicago Tribune)
Really? Did no one even mention this while I was gone? OK, so it's not a new prime minister, but it was the top story in just about the entire U.S. national media today (see Today's Front Pages) and the articlereceived 420,800 hits yesterday. True, she hasn't been confirmed by the Senate yet, but confirmation of a Democratic president's nominee by a Democratic Senate is all but assured.
All the same arguments from the Sotomayor discussion last year apply:
There are only nine justices, and they serve as long as they want, meaning Kagan could serve until mid-century.
The U.S. Supreme Court is extremely powerful and sets many of the most-important policies in the country, such as legalizing abortion, desegregating schools, establishing criminal suspects' rights, setting parameters on the use of the death penalty, allowing corporations to fund political ads, deciding the 2000 presidential election, etc.
Unlike in some other countries where the high court doesn't get much notice, there is a huge interest in Supreme Court membership among the politically engaged population in the U.S.
There is talk that by replacing the reliably liberal Justice Stevens, Kagan could tilt the ideological balance of the court now or in the future.
Wait - There is absolutely no doubt that she will become the next justice, but even then, we should hold off until her confirmation is official, so as to prevent redundancy.--WaltCip (talk) 23:54, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose. I'm not convinced the appointment of judges is important enough (regardless of the court), let alone mere nomination. Important judgements of the US Supreme Court can be nominated as and when they occur - who serves on that particular bench is not intrinsically notable enough for ITN. Modest Geniustalk00:00, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If the appointment of judges is "not important," why was it on the front page of every national U.S. newspaper and the lead story on all of the national TV news programs? I'm loathe to make this a personal confrontation, but do you think you know more about the U.S. judicial system than the entire U.S. media? -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:03, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Appointment of judges to Pakistani Supreme Court was listed on frontpage of every newspaper here, should we also post that ? --yousaf46505:44, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We will be accused of systematic bias then, I don't we should post this either. I'm not opposing bcz Pakistani appointments are not posted or vice versa, I opposing bcz it only relates to a single country it might be significant for U.S but not Internationally from where most are readers belong to. --yousaf46506:58, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Of course the US media will be interested in domestic US politics. That doesn't mean ITN should be. ITN should strive to be international, beyond (perhaps despite) the readership statistics. Modest Geniustalk21:02, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. US judges should be a special case. Their appointments do get coverage in the international media, and for that reason they are internationally significant. --Mkativerata (talk) 00:05, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose despite the nominators claim, the confirmation is far from assured. A lot can, and often does, happen between nomination and voting. At least 2 of the last 10 nominees have withdrawn after issues emerged. Additionally, there is small chance of a filibuster.
More importantly though is the fact that ITN should not be equated with level of interest, but rather level of international impact. Thus the fact that the nomination gets more media coverage than the confirmation is irrelevant. The change of the court's makeup (i.e. the actual confirmation) is the event that causes a real impact. The nomination just shows a potential shift, not the actual shift. --ThaddeusB (talk) 00:59, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I respectfully disagree. I think this topic is "in the news" now and will be "old news" when Kagan is confirmed. Plus, now is the time people are likely to be looking for information on who this previously obscure person is, so I think it would be helpful to have a link on the main page (would have been better yesterday). -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:01, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The purpose of the template isn't to provide a one click link for people who are already looking for a topic. It's not exactly hard to type in "Elena Kagan". The purpose of the template is to inform people of news with impact. For non-US readers - the ones who would actually benefit from the link - the news that matters is a confirmation. If the purpose of ITN was to simply report every story that makes headlines, it would list completely different stories than it does. By your logic, we shouldn't report the results of (most) elections since the outcome pretty much decided in advance, but instead report when a public opinion poll shows a clear favorite. After all, polls are accurate a lot more often than 80%. --ThaddeusB (talk) 01:12, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And if we were to use your logic, we wouldn't put up the results of a US presidential election until the Electoral College voting took place weeks later, nor would we put up the major-party nominations. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:19, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The electoral college is, in all reality, symbolic in modern society (and incidentally isn't the final determiner of the election result anyway). A supreme court nominee's confirmation is not. If it were Robert Bork and Harriet Miers would be on the court right now. --ThaddeusB (talk) 01:27, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I won't opine because I'll probably end up being the one to post if there's consensus, but if this goes up, we should agree that the confirmation itself (or her taking office) should not go up. I have the article on my watchlist because of an RfPP request the other day and from the amount of editing going on, I'm hoping that's a lot of people updating the article! HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:42, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have a feeling that, if we put this up, come confirmation there are going to be people arguing for it anyways. --PlasmaTwa204:11, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Although her nomination might be significant in the U.S, but I don't think it hold any international significance. Justices are appointed to the highest courts all over the world and we can't start a dog race. Although if posted we might see more ITN-biased complains. --yousaf46505:35, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose--Let's wait at least for the confirmation. We can't post every item that is on the front pages of all US newspapers, though this certainly is big news. I'd also say that the US supreme court, and it's judges, is considered more important in the US and other courts in their own countries, so I might support the confirmation but not the nomination.--Johnsemlak (talk) 15:13, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Gordon Brown resigns as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom
He doesn't 'leave the way clear'. He is right now entering Buckingham Palace to tell the Queen he is resigning, and will "recommend she appoint the Leader of The Opposition" as the next Prime Minister, which is of course, Cameron. We will have a new Prime Minister in the next hour it seems. MickMacNee (talk) 18:33, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I think we should put up when the new Prime Minister is appointed (i.e. David Cameron), rather than announce the resignation of the incumbent. HonouraryMix (talk) 18:37, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
They are choreographed to be simultaneous events. Cameron will be PM before the day is out. Otherwise, who runs the country in the interim? The Queen? MickMacNee (talk) 18:42, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Haha, that'd be amusing. I agree - Brown wouldn't have resigned if he didn't know Cameron was ready to take over. Regardless, I say wait until he's appointed. HonouraryMix (talk) 18:43, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Conditional support post when David Cameron becomes PM. Not sure about the notability for Brown's resignation, as it kind of comes with the process of having a "new" prime minister. Anyone who doesn't know about British politics (the majority of our readers) might get the idea that Gordon Brown is a Conservative. JollyΩJanner18:38, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Could we post both, e.g. 'Gordon Brown resigns as PM and leader of the Labour party. David Cameron, leader of the Conservative party, becomes the new PM'? - JuneGloom07Talk? 18:43, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
They are the same event. Seriously guys, the UK always has a Prime Minister, just because we don't publicly know who it is yet, rest assured, the Trident missiles are in safe hands. Cameron is off to the Palace now, he'll be the publicly acknowledged PM in half an hour at most. MickMacNee (talk) 19:02, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's always better when it is reported in the template as shorter as possible. Then, more common is to avoid unnecessary facts. The main point is that David Cameroon becomes new Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, and the report should be concluded roughly.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 19:13, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not really. This is not, for the UK, a normal election and a normal transition of power. It is the end of 13 years of continual Labour government, and the first non-majority/multi party government in 3 decades. Had this been a normal election, this second posting wouldn't have even occured, we would have known the new PM immediately after the conclusion. Some of that needs working in somehow. MickMacNee (talk) 19:27, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support but suggest the blurb mention Cameron first, and Brown second. The emphasis of the blurb should be on the new Prime Minister, not the old one. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:01, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The current blurb is wholly inadequate. It implies Cameron was simply Brown's deputy, or that the election was a walkover. It completely ignores it is the first coallition govt since 1945, (it's a full con-lib coallition, now confirmed). The poor Queen doesn't even get a look in. This isn't the US, she does actually have a role here, it is her house these two guys have been trapsing in and out of this evening to complete this transition. Why are admins simply changing around with the template, and haven't even bothered commenting here? MickMacNee (talk) 19:52, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think the "becomes" wording is great. The wording of Alt 2 and Alt 3 are better. Alt 2 in particular contextualises Cameron's appointment more clearly. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:56, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You're not the only one who proposed a blurb, first off. Secondly, if we were to incorporate everyone's demands for what the blurb should say, the whole template would be just this one thing; we can't put it all. Insofar as I see it, the only thing most of the rest of the world cares about is that Cameron is the new PM. But now you're demanding the Queen get a mention and the fact that the first coalition government in X years gets a mention. Then others want the election linked in there. Others want Brown's resignation in there. Sure, some combination of those should be in the blurb, but I don't see any evidence of agreement on what. I'm trying my best (and I presume Jdforrester did his); the world doesn't revolve around you. -- tariqabjotu20:03, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There is clear support for mentioning the nature of the government, and only one proposed blurb does not include the Queen. This is presumbaly because these are the two crucial points which differentiate this event, and the UK, from any other tinpot nation's transition of power. But whatever, you figure it out between you using your bits if you want, I could care less. I waste far too much time of my life on this pointless board. MickMacNee (talk) 20:17, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Only one proposed blurb does not include the Queen. What? On the contrary, all of the proposed blurbs, aside from yours, omit the Queen. -- tariqabjotu20:23, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever. As if that was even the main point. Still, the Queen appears in every update not controlled by admins, so maybe that says something. The most important aspect is the first coallition government for decades, the thing everybody was waiting for confirmation of after the news brown was stepping down came through. But no, we still have a blurb that simply suggests one party has replaced another, like any other ordinary transition. Five days has been included, from nowhere, but that is hardly going to educate people who don't know, or be of use to people who do. MickMacNee (talk) 21:56, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I dunno Isn't a 50% chance of half the currently inhabited world becoming just plain too hot to live in as bad as a 100% chance of 1/4 the currently inhabited world becoming just plain too hot to live in? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 19:51, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Significant yes, but in my view not sufficiently significant for ITN. It is also one of those slow-building news stories (I recall reading about in the NYT a few weeks ago) for which it is difficult to isolate a discrete ITN event. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:51, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Slow moving yes, but significant enough, British elections were also slow moving :). Never seen such highly radioactive material in hands of a common man who don't have the security clearance to handle such material. It would have easily used to make dirty bomb. I had to go through proper channels to inspect such materials in the hospital. --yousaf46505:27, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Iraqi insurgents kill 102 and injure over 200 people, mostly Iraqi civilians, in a series of suicide bombings from Mosul to Basra in Iraq, the highest number in one day this year, and jeopardizing a planned US withdrawal. (The Times)
BP sprays more chemicals into the main massive undersea oil leak in the Gulf of Mexico using a deep-sea robot in an attempt to thin the oil which is rushing up from the seabed at the rate of about 210,000 gallons (795,000 liters) per day. (USA Today)
{combined from above) Sure it may be notable as such a case is rare where some nearly 400 people were dead or maimed, but its not going to go up without a page of its ownLihaas (talk) 10:56, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support — I had an edit conflict with Thue while proposing the same thing. I suggest that this would replace the current UK election item, possibly with a wording like this:
Comment - has he actually stepped down? My reading of it (based upon what the BBC is saying) is that he will step down, not he has stepped down. It seems he will carry on as PM until the outcome of coalition negotiations are known and him stating that he is stepping aside is a move made to try and aid Labour's chances of a coalition with the Lib Dems --Daviessimo (talk) 16:43, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't that what Thue and I both said? "...intends to step down", "...will resign". Do either of those suggest that he's already done it, or is doing it now? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 17:15, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as a stand-alone piece: we don't usually run changes in party leadership, and Brown continues as Prime Minister. Let's wait until Britain has something resembling a government before posting. Physchim62(talk)16:51, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Let's wait and post the formation of a new government, not every detail of the political manoeuvering beforehand. Algebraist17:01, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think a sitting prime minister announcing his intention to resign is a bit more significant than merely a detail of political manoeuvering. I wouldn't support an item about, say, talks between the Lib Dems and the other parties, but this is a landmark moment. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 17:15, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't say it is a landmark moment. As leader of the Labour party he has seen a 188 seat swing to the Conservatives, a result that can only be described as a trouncing. His resignation from this position was entirely expected --Daviessimo (talk) 17:30, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Folk are confused enough (folk in general, not necessarily just on en.wiki...) - leave it until he actually stands down. Until then it's just another political announcement (that may yet come to nothing - he could change his mind (unlikely...) or get hit by a bus before he actually resigns. That, and the accusations of UK-bias that will inevitably occur... TFOWRThis flag once was red19:52, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as well - it's big news here, but worldwide not so much - there are going to be headline grabbing stories every day until the government get sorted, so can't post everything. SteveRwanda (talk) 20:10, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I would have thought the incumbent Prime Minister announcing his future resignation is in a whole different league to the love letters being sent around Westminster. It doesn't matter what the resolution of this is; Brown is out. --.:Alex:.21:00, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose As has been noted, he's only said he will resign, not that he will right now. Wait until a new government has been formed before we put up a new item. HonouraryMix (talk) 21:59, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The leader of Turkey's main opposition party (CHP), Deniz Baykal has resigned following the release of an alleged "sex scandal" videotape featured on Metacafe. Kavas (talk) 13:34, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Newsworthy I'm sure, but not sufficiently significant for ITN. If we're not going to post the resignation of Gordon Brown, we shouldn't post this. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:18, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. We've put Chile on ITN when they received an invitation last time OECD invited a new country. So this is the time to post this one. --Tone13:36, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
support. this will have major impact on current mess that europe is in. there hasnt been a big government bailout in a while so pretty big news -- Ashish-g5504:11, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - To answer HJ, this is a Eurozone security net, although the Germans want an EU wide security package (which us Britons are likely to veto!). I think the issue here is that Spain, Portugal and Ireland are teetering on the brink and Germany et al would rather avoid another 'Greek tragedy' (I'm sorry I couldn't help myself) --Daviessimo (talk) 06:50, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There are several parts to it: €60bn in loans to any EU country (to which the UK will contribute); €440bn in loan guarantees among the Eurozone countries; €220–250bn in IMF facilities for Eurozone countries; and quantitative easing by the ECB and centtral banks in the Eurozone. Physchim62(talk)10:14, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
oppose if the plunge in the market on thursday was not big enough this is nothing. bond yields may further increase in the coming/days and weeks, you never know.122.167.182.213 (talk) 07:22, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Moved to "May 2010..." (after I initially forgot what month we're in and re-moved it w/o redirect!). From reading the sources, I think Raspadskaya is the company that owns the mine rather than the location which would be a bit odd for an article title. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 02:40, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Raspadskaya is definitely the company that owns it... I don't know why that would be weird though: it is an explosion that happened at a Raspadskaya mine, hence a Raspadskaya mine explosion. In any case, "May 2010 ..." is fine. I see you got a good start on the article, so I'll let you have at it. However, feel free to drop me a line if you want some help. --ThaddeusB (talk) 03:04, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, tragedy doesn't equate w/those things but it does usually lead to news coverage and quite often lasting impact (i.e. becoming "encyclopedia worthy") --ThaddeusB (talk) 03:07, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just for the record,we've posted similar events with lower casualty numbers in the past. Also, it looks like there were two explosions. I've brought the article up to postable standards but now I have to go to bed- it needs de-orphaning and probably some cosmetic work if anybody's up for it. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 03:14, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support if there is an article as there have been lots of circumstances where mining disasters or eight dead people have been posted. --candle•wicke03:39, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Article massively expanded and updated. Seems to be affecting victory day celebrations (which are currently on ITN). Suggest for a blurb:
{{*mp|May 8}} Two mine explosions in eastern Russia kill at least 13 people with up to 60 injured and 80 unaccounted for.
I'm not sure. What about other rare baseball occurrances, or such occurrances in any other sport? I think only championships should be placed on ITN. SpencerT♦Nominate!00:10, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Administrator note No comment on the nomination (this is one of the few where I have no opinion either way) but the article, as it is currently, is unpostable. The update consists of "On May 9, 2010, Braden pitched the 19th perfect game in MLB history against the Tampa Bay Rays in Oakland. He did it in just 109 pitches, 77 of which were strikes." with no source provided. It will also need a copyedit and some more detail on his career but certainly more than one unsourced line on this achievement. On further examination, I've also added a {{BLPsources}} tag. Verifiability issues will need to be dealt with if this is to be posted. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 00:14, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Oppose a few weeks ago there was a cricket item, about an achievment that (if I recall) was a lot more notable than a once-every-year-event. If I remember correctly we did not post that on itn. There should be no single-game items on itn. --PlasmaTwa200:15, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose This is similar to a hat-trick in Test cricket. About 35 or so since 1877. Not rare enough for a single game. Something that happens once evey six years in a specific match isn't notable. A soccer team winning 8-0 probably doesn't happen every six years either, are we going to post chelsea? Or a footballer kicking 4 or 5 goals in a match YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 01:22, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How many test cricket matches are there in a year? There are, I believe, 2,430 baseball games among all the teams in an MLB season (81*32), which means perfect games happen something like once every 10,000 games. And it's not just the rarity (unassisted triple plays are even rarer) but the fact that it is the absolute pinnacle of achievement for a pitcher -- retiring all 27 batters faced without allowing a single base runner. In a sport that gets so misty-eyed about its history, and that is so wrapped up in statistics, no-hitters, and especially perfect games, are not just statistical quirks but highlights of the year. I guess you kind of have to be in a baseball-playing part of the world to understand. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:40, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - very rare achievement: just 19 in 140 years of professional baseball averaging 1000-2000 games a year. The cricket item referred to above wasn't promoted in large part because no update was made, which is mandatory for ITN. Additionally, no one was able to provide any evidence that it was actually unique and it generated very little news coverage. If no one makes an update sooner, I'll do one in a couple hours. --ThaddeusB (talk) 00:50, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose. I agree that this is unusual. But it's not a first. The last similar piece that we posted (if my memory serves me correctly) was the six trophies won by FC Barcelona in a single year in soccer [39]. The traffic was hardly astounding, albeit for an article which is popular anyway, despite the fact that soccer is more globally popular than baseball and that this really was an unprecidented achievement (rather than just a very rare one). Physchim62(talk)01:27, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We posted a cricket story earlier this year. And while soccer may be more globally popular, baseball is more popular amongst countries where English is primarily used. ~DCTalk To Me01:31, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What do you mean primarily and why does it matter? There are significant English speaking populations in many European countries, African countries and Asian countries to varying degrees. In all bar a few (perhaps Japan, South Korea and the Philippines) football is much more popular usually by fair. Also the case in several South American and Central American countries although the situation is more complicated in some. Even India, where football is hardly the most popular sport I'm pretty sure its popularity dwarfs that of baseball. Now in terms of number of wikipedia users, there may be more from places where baseball is popular but your comment was on 'where English is primarily used' nothing to do with wikipedia users. Nil Einne (talk) 22:58, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - there's 162 games and 30 teams, so there are 4,860 total games in a season. If perfect games occur once every five years, that means that it occurs once every 24,300 games. Wow. —Ed(talk • majestic titan)01:48, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm no mathematician, but because each game involves two teams, I believe the way to calculate total MLB games in a season is to divide the number of games each team plays (162) by two (making 81), then multiply that number by the number of teams (30). So the chance of any one game having a perfect game thrown in it is about 1 in 12,150. However, looking at it another way, the chance of any pitcher throwing a perfect game in any one start is 1 in 24,300. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:13, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Oppose - Whether it is baseball, or cricket, or soccer, or whatever, I don't think we should be honoring single game achievements here. These things are somewhat newsy (in that lots of news outlets will mention it), but they aren't very encyclopedic. Nearly the totality of the story is in the blurb itself, so the update related to the event is often trivial. (I'm glad people are updating the article in general, but improving a previously weak article isn't really relevant to whether we have more to teach people more about the event itself.) Dragons flight (talk) 02:11, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Plasma Twa 2. also this happened pretty recently just last year so its really not as rare. and its single game event that can happen anytime. As said above its like Cricket Hat-trick which will never pass ITN. last year's perfect game got posted since we thought it wont happen again for long time... so a definite oppose here -- Ashish-g5502:28, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"its single game event that can happen anytime" but it doesn't (Also, by that logic, a plane crash can happen any day, so why post that?) The rest of your statement is equally as flawed, per usual for you. ~DCTalk To Me02:45, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
19 times in 140 years (or 390,000+ chances) is hardly "once every year". The fact that two happened in two years, is pure coincidence. And like DC said the fact that "it can happen every day" but doesn't is an argument for inclusion, if anything. The argument "X could have happened any day, so really its no big deal" could apply to absolutely any news story.
Most importantly, we aren't just talking about a random stat that happens to be super rare - like, say or scoring 4 goals in ice hockey - but rather a ultimate achievement in the sport, literally the best game possible, hence the name 'perfect game'. --ThaddeusB (talk) 03:01, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
an ultimate achievement in a sport is totally relative to that particular sport. as such every sport has their own rare events. if they are not records (or atleast a first/last) they should not be posted. simple as that. a plane crash is not the same as a single game event... unless a 100 people dying in a plane crash has same importance as a perfect game. you can not compare the two... -- Ashish-g5503:28, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And I never said other sports didn't have events that would be worthy of inclusion. I just said that comparing a perfect game to a 8-0 soccer game or scoring a specific number of goals - both of which are random stats points - isn't fair. Secondly, applying your argument to area where it obviously doesn't make sense is a perfect way to show how the structure of argument is invalid. Every plane can crash just like every baseball game can be a perfect game. Just as the argument makes no sense to exclude plane crashes, it makes no sense to exclude sporting events. There might be perfectly legitimate reasons to oppose, but that it is theoretically possible that the event will happen again tomorrow isn't one of them. Incidental, a perfect game it is a (tied) record by definition since it is impossible to do better. It is also a heck of a lot more meaningful than a lot of records; a wouldn't support something like a new record for most triples in one game, or year even, for example. --ThaddeusB (talk) 03:50, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
i only brought up plane crash as DC compared the game to it. The reason sporting events are different is because they are not exactly of the same importance. You can not include everything in the world that can happen everyday. have to look at it case by case. and my argument is only against single-game events. why is 19th perfect game any more important than 20th or 21st. so we are going to post every perfect game? is this ITNR? if it was first i would never oppose but 19th just doesnt seem to any special of an event (as rare as it maybe). -- Ashish-g5503:56, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's happened 19 times since 1876. Looking at it another way, there have been 26 (by my count) U.S. presidents during that time, so this is even rarer than a new president. Does anyone else notice that everyone supporting this is from the U.S., and all of the people most-vociferously opposed are from other countries? I don't mean to belittle the contributions of people from outside of the U.S., but I think it says something that almost all of the people who should know whether this is a big deal say it's a big deal. I wouldn't presume to judge the importance of a cricket event, and I think perhaps those not familiar with baseball ought to put some faith in those who are. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 04:16, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The 18th one was last year. Compare this to Sachin Tendulkar, who became the first man in the history of one day international cricket to score a double century. I have to ask, what kind of edit will be enough to warrant this on itn? I can't imagine any more of an edit than what is literally the proposed itn sentence. --PlasmaTwa205:52, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not to get into an argument with you (I honestly have no opinion on this), but it might be because nobody outside the US gives even half a shit about baseball? I include myself in that, but I don't give half a shit about football or cricket either. I don't think the opposition of non-American editors says anything more than the support of American editors- people in areas where certain sports are popular will have strong feelings about their sport, those in other areas probably won't care. It's human. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 04:41, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
everytime usain bolt shaves off a 10th of a second he creates a new world record. this one is more like saying usain bolt tied his own record for 19th time. 17:51, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
Very weak support: really don't know anything about baseball (frankly couldn't give less of a shit) but this seems to be a fairly good achievement. f o x12:29, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A device found at Karachi airport similar to Shoe Bomber
Comment looks like no explosives were found on him. we should not encourage the assumption that every bearded Pakistani is out to blow something up ;-).[40]--Wikireader41 (talk) 23:37, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Yeah no explosive were found that is why I also didn't mentioned any, referring to it as a "device". According to the police he might only be carrying to for somebody else. we can wait until more details emerge.--yousaf46502:44, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment looks like he was wearing “Good Vibrations” therapy shoes and this was a false alarm. I want one of those shoes too ;-).[41]
Article is at 1045 Bbytes of prose, so needs 455 more for DYK. Definitely doesn't fit in here, as ITN is more major international news not curiosities. --ThaddeusB (talk) 20:37, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Results may be known in two days, but proclamation by Congress might take a little longer. Suggest including blurbs about the Senate and House of Representatives elections too.
Question Say the winner is known (not necessarily proclaimed) after all of the current ITN items have been removed, where will this be added? The first or last item? –HowardtheDuck08:54, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well it would go at the top now, but if there are (roughly) 5 updates to the template between now and then, it would go at the bottom, 4 updates and it'll be second from bottom and so on- is that what you were asking? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 08:58, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If all of the current items had dropped out, and then we knew who won, where will this be placed? First or last? No way we can find out within today. –HowardtheDuck09:01, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, assuming, for argument's sake, that it's updated the second the result is known and an admin is around, it should go on top. However, if there's another update before the article is sufficient, it will go second. Basically, if I'm on (and there's a fair chance I will be) and the article is updated quick enough, it'll go at the top barring the unforeseeable. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 09:31, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It may be the highest in Nevada's history? I like legal items, but I don't think this case is significant enough for ITN. And the article is too short at the moment. --BorgQueen (talk) 17:05, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If it can be demonstrated that this will have any bearing on common law precedence in any international jurisdictions then maybe, but seems prima facie parochial so I think not ITN fodder. -Monotonehell17:50, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK. I'll abide by the the consensus, which so far is against including it. I just thought it was interesting that they were ordered to pay half a billion dollars even though they hadn't done anything wrong. Learn something - read a book today! (talk) 17:55, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support as above, the Premier league has international significance as people follow it all over the world, not just in the UK. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:39, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - There had been discussion on including the top three domestic leagues in Europe (the Premier League, La Liga and Serie A) on ITN to try a balance the huge lobsidedness (if that's a word) of sports items. Football is the most popular sport in the world, but only has two annually occurring competitions being listed, less than rugby, golf tennis etc. Personally I'd prefer to list the winner of the Europa League, the final of which takes place this thursday, because it is an international competition, but as with all things on wiki, the discussion just seemed to grind to halt with no concensus --Daviessimo (talk) 18:06, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Actually there's six comps listed a year on average. We've been through this process at least once a year for years. The bottom line is that just about every sport can claim that they have a lot of viewers, if we set a precedent by including one example of a penultimate competition then all the other penultimate competitions in other regions want in. It never ends well, there's a huge shitfight, and eventually we end with the consensus that we always end in. That being that only the ultimate International comps for each code are to be included.
That is why I think listing the Europa League is the best compromise. It is a major international competition with teams eligible to enter from over 40 countries in football's heartland (Europe) --Daviessimo (talk) 18:19, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Sod the precedent, ITN already operates on a day to day crowdsourcing system, and nobody really pays any attention to /R when it comes down to it. I had put Man Utd winning into Future Events as it was going to be a record number of titles for English football, but it turns out Chelsea broke some records too:
It shouldn't even be in question as to whether the Premier League is of international significance, or that this is world news. Compared to a non-title boxing match, which was apparently significant because it was a couple of top-3 boxers and got shown on TV in Indonesia, then the Premier League is Mike Tyson vs. Muhammad Ali. The Premier League, La Liga, and Seria A, are the shit. MickMacNee (talk) 18:15, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Two wrongs don't make a right. See? You're pointing at a precedent and saying "sod the precedent". Put it in if you wish, but expect a shitstorm here and on talk pages. (the reason for the consensus by the way, is if this sort of thing is left ITN becomes a sports ticker.) --Monotonehell18:18, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Where have you been lately if you don't think ITN is a ticker? It's a sports ticker, a space ticker, an election ticker, and a >10 dead ticker. And yes, even a Somali pirate rescue ticker now (to replace the Space Shuttle). I've no problem with unleashing hell by saying the perfectly obvious - the English, Spanish and Italian domestic football leagues are the biggest in the world, by any measure you care to use. MickMacNee (talk) 18:23, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's about balance. The restrictions are placed on several high volume recurring subjects in order that there be a balance of subjects in ITN. It's hard to achieve, because news seems to occur in batches, but that's no reason why we shouldn't try to maintain a balance. Like I said this discussion has been had with -insert your pet subject here- many times. --Monotonehell18:27, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You are right, there isn't any balance. The disfunctional dynamic of /C, combined with the pure POV that flies about for every popular nomination, and the silence for everything else, means ITN is 95% crud, 5% good items, when stretched over a year, but nobody wants to touch the whole 'should ITN even exist' issue with a bargepole around here. So we are where we are - debating each item as it comes up. And if the only opposition to this one you can come up with is fear of the future, I say it's irrelevant dogma. MickMacNee (talk) 18:44, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I know what you're getting at, I've been watching ITN/C since before there was an ITN/C. But your argument is basically, let's give up and go with the anarchy and constant complaints of bias (nothing will settle those I suspect). In the past (2007) I've been involved with large discussions to try to get ITN "fixed" by changing the dynamic. But discussion stalled between "it ain't broke" and "let's change it radically." (It's my bedtime, I expect to see the League item posted in ITN tomorrow :D , night!) --Monotonehell18:55, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That isn't a very reasonable argument as it is of interest to lots of people, would it be fair if I used it against posting the next Superbowl? The Premier League is a considerably more serious contest than the Indian Premier League as for starters its broadcast in 202 countries and individual matches are watched by 160 million people (source). -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:08, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
well the Indian Premier League was shown live on YouTube across the world, a first for any sport. the commercial success of IPL would be evident if you read the lede of the article. 'Premier League is a considerably more serious contest than the Indian Premier League' seems like serious OR to me and very POV. we should stick to consistent criteria across sports.--Wikireader41 (talk) 23:21, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Anyone that says ITN is a sport ticker is either biased against sports or not paying attention. Compared to real world news coverage, sports are one of the most under represented segments on ITN. Additionally, "IPL didn't get in" is now being used to oppose every sport, which, IMO, is just idiotic. Can we please just evaluate each item by its own merits instead of trying to enforce artificial "balance"? --ThaddeusB (talk) 20:30, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support Far more countries have world-class footballers. In IPL there are only 8 proper countries and one of them was banned, and restrictions were placed on the other foreigners. Chelsea, Man U and Arsenal have good success in EPL and in the Champions League because they have the best players, not substandard quota players. English clubs generally do well in the Champions League, IPL teams get smashed and so does the Indian Team at the 2010 ICC World Twenty20; the standard of the IPL is not good YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 01:27, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I supported IPL (and still do), but its inclusion or exclusion really should have no bearing on the inclusion/exclusion of an unrelated league in an unrelated sport. --ThaddeusB (talk) 04:05, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - admit that I am a UK Wikipedian and I know that this could be seen as UK-centric. However, I've also lived in various countries in Africa and this is massive over there too. And in Asia, if I understand correctly. SteveRwanda (talk) 09:10, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Administrator note the article is "up to date", but I'd like to see more prose in the update. A paragraph or two on the final etc. would be nice- the entire article is full of fancy tables and bulleted lists, but very little prose. Perhaps a section called "final" could be created and I can pipe a link straight to it. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:53, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I've added some more updates to the lead of the article (there doesn't seem to be an appropriate section for them anywhere else). --Mkativerata (talk) 21:03, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like to see a bit more in the body of the article. The stuff in the lead is good, but perhaps a new section under a heading of "Final" would be a good place to stick a paragraph of prose (even if it's copied and pasted from the lead). HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:19, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Very sparse. Is there any reason why the suggested blurb could not be used, giving rather more info than 'they won it'? Or the rather excellent thumbnail of the trophy? MickMacNee (talk) 23:52, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I often wonder if ITN people even realise that most normal readers have no clue that new items can get inserted mid-template, and most likely don't even look at the template between image changes. Frankly, for a short blurb inserted mid-template with no image change, I would be amazed if it got any attention at all, especially as we are well overdue a Shuttle loo roll mission to knock it off its perilous position near the bottom already. I'll look up the viewing figures tomorrow, I want to know if Mitchell is providing value for money here to the Chelsea **** boys. MickMacNee (talk) 00:17, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
For the article I've written with minimal built-in interest (i.e. those for which its views come mostly from the MP link), I've found the hits to be pretty consistent from day-to-day while its on the MP. In other words, position w/i the template had little effect on hits. --ThaddeusB (talk) 00:29, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Good post. We can't post every single domestic league obviously but the EPL is clearly one of the most prestigious sporting competitions in the world and especially among readers of the .en wiki. Far more important than the Europa League, for example (just imagine which trophy players would rather win). We might consider adding the La Liga and Serie A champions when they're known to the blurb but I support it as is.--Johnsemlak (talk) 09:15, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - it doesn't appear to have done any significant damage, so there isn't really anything to write about, let alone post on ITN. --ThaddeusB (talk) 17:25, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support Norwegian news even previewed the trial run several days ago, so it seems like something to take notice of on a somewhat grand scale. __meco (talk) 10:10, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
weak support if there arent other more worthy stories in the 24 hours period then this seems big enough to be there. Particularly significant this year with the foreign marches (including NATO)Lihaas (talk) 10:57, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support posting once the DYK cycles off. No point having the same item in two different sections. This is an obvious candidate, and even though DYK disallows nominations that have already been on ITN, I can find no evidence of a reciprocal ban. MickMacNee (talk) 12:03, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Was there any rational reason for changing Britain to United Kingdom before posting? I know some of the Irish go apoplectic if you ever mention the phrase British Isles, but even they haven't got to the point of disputing that Britain is simply the short-form name of the United Kingdom (and it is the British Army that is taking part in the parade). MickMacNee (talk) 18:19, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Good post. Agree with Howard teh Duck. We can't post every single domestic league obviously but the EPL is clearly one of the most prestigious sporting competitions in the world and especially among readers of the .en wiki. Far more important than the Europa League, for example (just imagine which trophy players would rather win). We might consider adding the La Liga and Serie A champions when they're known to the blurb but I support it as is.--Johnsemlak (talk) 09:12, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Switch illustration I think the logo is an inappropriate image to illustrate this event. Who cares about the logo? It's not like this is an international organization we're gonna see again and again. A picture of the actual parade is the only appropriate illustration. __meco (talk) 16:35, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to support this after leaving it for a while. There has been no rush to oppose, it has been reported around the world by Aljazeera and CNN among others, the chairman is retiring after 25 years, is a reasonably well-known public figure, the buyer is notable, the price may be notable and it seems unlikely the sale of a department store would attract that much attention every day. --candle•wicke21:06, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - it certainly has attracted news coverage, but I personally don't think it has any real international interest. --ThaddeusB (talk) 02:11, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose if you mean to post "A 98 tonne steel box is being lowered to the sea floor to try to capture around 85% of the oil currently leaking from the Deepwater Horizon oil spill". It just seems like another ordinary development. --candle•wicke18:29, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg describes the election as a "disappointing night" for his party, in his speech at the count for his Sheffield Hallam constituency.
Two former Labour Home Secretaries, Charles Clarke (2004–2006) and Jacqui Smith (2007–2009, first woman in the post), lose their seats. (BBC)(BBC)
An appeals court in Lithuania overturns a ruling which had earlier, due to fears over homophobic violence, prevented the country's first gay pride parade going ahead in Vilnius tomorrow. (BBC)
Flights take to the skies again in Ireland following recent Icelandic volcanic disruption. (Al Jazeera)(RTÉ)
The Supreme Court of the Philippines rejects several petitions calling for a presidential election to be postponed and asking for manual counting of votes to be maintained. (Arab News)
Starlin Castro makes his MLB-debut, hitting a home run in his first career at-bat, and later adding a three-run triple to set the MLB record for RBI's in an MLB Debut.
Support. I added that to the portal yesterday but didn't have time to nominate it. Quote: Icann's senior director for internationalised domain names, Tina Dam, - "this has been 'the most significant day' since the launch of the internet". Icann president Rod Beckstrom described the change as "historic". --candle•wicke20:02, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Maybe not really the "the most significant day" in the history of the internet, but still very important. A new stand alone article (created with content from main article, not by me) - Internationalized country code TLD - exists on the subject and has been updated by me. --ThaddeusB (talk) 21:42, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support ITN usually takes great interest in new discoveries related to the ancestry of humanity. This seems to be one of those significant discoveries that we've had a few of in the last couple of years. __meco (talk) 18:01, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support if the article can be cleaned up a little and include more information on the new report. It's obviously encyclopaedic and newsworthy (a good double for ITN) so it would be sad to miss out on this. --Mkativerata (talk) 21:18, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: how about this for now. once Neanderthal genome project article is improved we could tweak the blurb.
Has this been fully verified? From what I can tell, only three Neanderthal bone samples were compared to 5 human samples from today, and other scientists question some of the results. SpencerT♦Nominate!03:35, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed the item for now because of lack of a substantial update regarding the 2010 study. The article is at Neanderthal admixture- there's a single sentence in the intro, and 2 sentences in a body paragraph about the 2010 findings. SpencerT♦Nominate!14:39, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
First ever Green MP. First green politician in a first past the post system?
In the 2010 general election, Caroline Lucas becomes the first ever Green Party politician to be elected to the House of Commons, having won the Brighton Pavilion constituency with a majority of 1,252 BBCPAReuters. The BBC also mentioned on their television coverage this is the first ever Green politician in the world to win a seat in a first past the post electoral system, which obviously disfavours such minor parties like greens. I cannot however after a cursory search find an online source for this. MickMacNee (talk) 05:31, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support, a notable first, the election is going to get on the main page anyway, but this is a better story that the fighting that is going to break out to form a government. Mjroots (talk) 06:16, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I'm in two minds about this. A first Green MP in the UK Parliament is significant. However, putting it up on ITN alongside the result of the election itself (as it would inevitably be) seems unbalanced. Ultimately I think this has a lot of local significance, but not much beyond the UK's borders, unlike the result of the election itself.--Mkativerata (talk) 06:22, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - on the basis that the overall result will be posted, which is enough, and this is just not notable outside the UK. --Daviessimo (talk) 06:59, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Oppose - kind of agree with the above sentiment. If it were an isolated byelection, it might warrant inclusion, but putting it alongside the national election results would be overdose. SteveRwanda (talk) 08:35, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Because it hardly, if ever, happens in the electoral systems used in half the world, that's why. We have a routine Somali pirate rescue on the front page right now, I fail to see how that is "notable enough for ITN", and in that case, nobody even bothered to offer any evidence or explanation why. At least for this nomination I gave particular reasons for people to feel free to ignore. MickMacNee (talk) 13:11, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, the little baby didn't get his story on ITN (again). He needs to attack everyone else for not agreeing with him. Poor MickMac. Poor, poor Mickmac. What half assed proposal are you gonna come up with this time, replacing the whole main page with a search box? ~DCTalk To Me13:52, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Let's start with something simple. How about discussions here must not resemble POV pull it out your hat random I like it/don't like it bollocks? How about discussions actually consider the nomination properly, or at a minimum, demand that nominations and votes must actually demonstrate how it meets or doesn't meet the criteria for posting, so at least we can assume good faith when discussions resemble simple votes held in the afformentioned manner. It's interesting you are the person dishing out the juvenile comments here, you are the worst offender in this regard. MickMacNee (talk) 14:08, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ireland's Supreme Court rules, after a ten-year campaign, that there is no constitutional obligation for political and legal acts to be written in both the English and Irish languages(RTÉ)
comment I think your data may be a bit out of date. According to the BBC there was a very sharp drop (almost 9%) earlier, but it slowly recovered to about a 3.5% net drop, in line with the NASDAQ --Daviessimo (talk) 19:37, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
ya it came back up but none the less biggest stock drop in more than a year... biggest ever within half an hour span. should be main news now for the day besides uk election. -- Ashish-g5519:41, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Would have supported 1000pt/9% drop, but looks like it'll actually be in the range of 350pt/3% which isn't super uncommon. --ThaddeusB (talk) 19:43, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment- CNBC is reporting that today's 900+ point decline is the largest intraday decline in the DJIA's history. Of course, the index has now gained back a lot of lost ground. The event is already roiling the international media but I don't feel knowledgeable enough on Main Page policies to say whether or not it deserves mention. It should also be noted that there is a strong connection to the events currently going on in Greece. -MidnightDesert (talk) 19:51, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If it had stayed there, I'd support, but since it bounced back to retake most of the loss, my portfolio is happy, but I'm going to have to say opposed to posting this on the MP. Bradjamesbrown (talk) 19:53, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose If the crash hadn't recovered most of its losses on the same day, it would definitely be ITN worthy. But the recovery has taken the guts out of this as a significant news event. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:32, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Is there a significantly updated article? I could support mentioning the extremely unusual intraday movement, but the question is moot unless there is an article discussing it. Dragons flight (talk) 20:46, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
support Ive added some sources to this. The significance if the largest intraday decline ever, possible technical problems and repercussions on circuit rules, etc. This is absolutely an extraordinary eventLihaas (talk) 21:21, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hold off for now. The drop appears to have been some kind of glitch that was quickly corrected. If the story is prominant in the morning papers tomorrow, I'm OK with it, but I don't think it's that noteworthy otherwise. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 21:54, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
actually i'm going to change to wait since now the details are starting to come out about what happened. i think this is still a major news but it seems to have been caused by an erroneous trade (some hedge fund liquidation or something). i think it will make more sense to post when we know exactly who and what caused it -- Ashish-g5501:14, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Certainly NOT in the main DJIA article, so probably no where at all. Most likely it will just be forgotten completely in a week, but on the off chance it becomes notable - like if people refer back to the glitch months/years from now - an article can always be created later. While, I've never heard of a stock "trading" at zero b/c of a glitch, I certainly have heard of stocks "trading" a ridiculous amounts b/c of errors. The errant trades, and any other that was automatically triggered by the errant price being reported, will simply be canceled by the stock exchange. In the US, Legally ownership doesn't actually change hand for three days, in large part to allow time for error corrections. --ThaddeusB (talk) 02:35, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's all over the news really, Asia-Pac. got hammered today. notable as per the widespread news coverage (despite the UK elections it is breaking news on CNN Int'l well into the morning.(Lihaas (talk) 11:37, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I thought maybe this story would pass somewhat quietly, however, it's still the first story featured on Google News (US content) and its also featured on the Norwegian content page. __meco (talk) 07:17, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Topping the headlines" is a bit of an exageration! It's not even the top business story on this side of the Pond. And what do we say about it? "The Dow Jones dropped 9000 points in a matter of minutes, then quickly recovered to its previous level: nobody is quite sure why, but the SEC is investigating and will make recommendations when it has some idea what the $*%&* happened." That's hardly the sort of encyclopedic information we try to promote on ITN. Physchim62(talk)09:45, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Apparently you're in Spain, so me being in Norway certainly am on the same side of the Pond as you. __meco (talk) 11:54, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Very minor accident, would scarcely have made local news if not for political profile of passenger, and he is already out of hospital, v unlikely to win seat, so not politically relevant in this context. Only long term consequence is loss of no-claims-bonus for whoever owns the plane, and a few people reconsidering the use of trailing messages from light aircraft. Kevin McE (talk) 18:35, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"A standalone article will normally only be appropriate if more than just the notable person or group is significantly involved. " I don't see how that part of the criteria is met. Bradjamesbrown (talk) 19:39, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose On the simple grounds that nobody above has given the slightest shred of evidence above that this was an internationally significant event. Plenty of rescues have been effected already, what actually made this one significant? (Shouldn't this sort of thing be covered in the admin instructions btw? As well as preferably making it a bright line offence to post items you comment on, of course). MickMacNee (talk) 19:09, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My comment was strictly "tongue in cheek" and any interest I had in the article's promotion was clearly declared. I fail to see how any offence has been committed here, there was already significant support before my comment. Mjroots (talk) 19:46, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I was talking about Mitchell. ITN is the only place on the pedia where you both comment on and call the consensus of discussions. One of its many unique traits. MickMacNee (talk) 21:03, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Mick, including myself and the nominator, there were 5 supports in the 5 and a half hours between the nom and the posting and now three more editors have supported and you're the only one in opposition- that's pretty clear consensus to me. I opined simply to kick the discussion off and I happened to be the only admin around several hours later, but if you can find anything that says there isn't consensus to post this, I'll take it down (or am I not allowed to do that because I opined). HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:21, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No need to take down the article, plenty of support for it being on ITN from uninvolved editors. Issue raised at WP:AN as promised. Mjroots (talk) 21:30, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Belated support - I'm sorry Mick, but there is nothing wrong with an admin commenting on an item and then subsequently posting it when there is clear consensus. If you want to know why this was internationally significant, maybe it has something to do with a Russian ship being hijacked off the coast of Africa, while on its way to China. --Daviessimo (talk) 19:59, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sigh. Right. So, what's new here then? The rescue? The pirates? What? Because these type of incidents have been going on for a while now. And I am assuming people are up to speed enough to realise ships from all over the world have been travelling to China for about a decade now, so it can't be that. If we are going to post every Somali pirate rescue incident now, then we might aswell resume posting every fatal bombing in Iraq. This is news, but it isn't ITN. Either that, or they can be deemed ITN/R, and they can then act as the replacement item for the Space Shuttle ticker, as the jazzy interlude between the weekly natural disasters and elections postings. MickMacNee (talk) 21:03, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like to have more content about the event in the article, it is quite short at the moment. Otherwise, tentative support. --Tone08:37, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have a problem with it dropping of soon, per say, but shouldn't what the blurb references really be in chronological order (near the top), just like everything else? --ThaddeusB-public (talk) 15:51, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A railway becoming the longest metro in the world might be newsworthy. But I'm not seeing when the Shanghai metro became the longest metro in the world. This source and this source suggest the new tracks were opened some three weeks ago, so it hardly seems "in the news". --Mkativerata (talk) 05:13, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support This is an important occurrence but it has been overshadowed by the Expo, so it hasn't really been reported in the media. The article for Shanghai Metro does detail the expansion during winter/spring 2010 that resulted in the system becoming the longest in the world. It probably became the longest in early April 2010, a month ago, so maybe it's a little too late for ITN? Nutmegger (talk) 06:05, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
well Railway Gazette issued a release confirms Shanghai as longest in the world MAY 4. That is recent and im sure they looked into. when is another time when you will have Shanghai or any other city as the longest In the world. many not for many dcades maybe not in my lifetime. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.65.20.55 (talk) 15:16, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
and yes it is still growing explosively along with others in china but im not sure how that affects it Sign your posts on talk pages: 76.65.20.55 (talk) 16:05, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think its planned to reach 800km or so by 2020, its currently around 420km long and the first line only opened in 1995. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:56, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
comment - surely we'd now be best waiting until the new line extension officially opens before we post this. We've already missed the best opportunity to post this back in April (when construction completed) and this is only back in the news now, because they have started testing the extension --Daviessimo (talk) 18:47, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry if it wasn't clear, the stuff that was reported back in April is all open now was all open in April - its just that there are further extensions due for completion maybe this year, and there are a lot more lines due for opening in 2012. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:56, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
TY Eraserhead, and I definitely if not now then likely never and i also see that youve helped to improve the article itself. 76.65.20.55 (talk) 21:03, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. We're still unsure when and if it has become the longest metro. The sources aren't clear. This leaves us exposed to an inaccurate or out of date ITN posting if it goes up. --Mkativerata (talk) 21:34, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. I'll post if:
There is a source which confirms this is the longest in the world;
It became the longest recently enough, which would be May 4- the date of the oldest item currently on ITN and
Is source a problem? Look at the Reuters and Railay Gazette soruces I've posted. The article itself seems updated. I think we can all agree that it recently became the longest int he world. and the raiway gazette confirmed it as of may 4. i don't see this as being outdated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.65.20.55 (talk) 22:01, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Railway Gazette says it happened on 10 April. It's not exactly up-to-date to say "the Shanghai metro became the world's longest metro four weeks ago". I suspect the horse has bolted on this one. --Mkativerata (talk) 22:08, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps but why would they wait until May 4 and not say something on Apri 10. I do know they were still testing the network and perhaps it was not 'officially' open. it may be difficult and somewhat ambiguous to judge when that actually occurred. maybe someone can find better sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.65.20.55 (talk) 22:18, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - the details (i.e. exactly when it actually happened) are just too murky for me to be comfortable with a main page blurb. The sourcing is OK for the article, but I'd like to see stronger evidence for the mainpage. --ThaddeusB (talk) 02:41, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. We'd need a very good source pretty quickly for this to go up with the unusual frequency of ITN updates over the last few days. As it is, it would probably end up towards the bottom of the template anyway, but I'm still not averse to posting if a clear enough source can be found. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:54, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know...I'll say neutral on this one...I would say support except for the fact that this is kinda desensitized by that massive quake they had earlier this year. Ks0stm(T•C•G)03:36, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This kind of quake happens somewhere on Earth a couple times per month. The effects might be bad if it hit in a vulnerable populated area, but I'd oppose unless the details show significant damage / loss of life. Dragons flight (talk) 04:27, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This absolutely has to go up, even in the case of a hung parliament. (That would just result in another blurb when Her Majesty finally appoints a PM; or she calls fresh elections.) Bradjamesbrown (talk) 02:05, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The question being raised is not whether to post it, but what the blurb should be in the likely event of a hung parliament.--Chaser (talk) 05:41, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
For that we may mention something like "No party got a clear majority of seats and Cons won X number and Lib-demo Y number. Labour followed with Z numbers. Cons and Lib-demo will form a colation." etc. Just a rough idea.--yousaf46505:54, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - If we have a hung parliament it is likely that is will take several days for any coalition to be formed (if one is formed at all). I think Jolly Janner's proposed blurb seems good for immediate results of a hung parliament and we should then follow it with by something like "Following a hung parliament in the United Kingdom general election, Party X and Party Y agree to form a coalition government, with person Y becoming Prime Minister" when the outcome of negotiations are known. Of course the Toffs could always win a majority, meaning none of this will be needed --Daviessimo (talk) 08:39, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support: I've never been anywhere near ITN before, but when I couldn't find anything about the UK general election on the homepage I came round here Alex Muller08:44, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support Jolly Janner's suggestion. The key on this one will be the timing. Assume it's a hung Parliament with X party winning most seats: we're just going to need to wait for a clear run of reliable sources to say so. Just to clarify I don't think it worth putting anything up until there are actual results. "An election is held for the Parliament of the United Kingdom" isn't by itself particularly interesting and the election has technically been running for weeks (ie since the writs were issued). --Mkativerata (talk) 08:58, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support - definitely needs to appear on main page, if only to counter claims of American bias (given the prominence that was given to the 2008 US elections) — Tivedshambo (t/c) 10:36, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strongest possible support (if more were needed) - closest race for PM in a generation, and the coverage of the US election was daft to say the least - the least we can do is shove this in ITN. f o x10:41, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not saying it wasn't ITN-worthy; I'm saying that the U.S. election isn't the only election where things other than the final results are put on ITN. If it's news of general international interest and there's an updated article, it should probably be on ITN. And, like it or not, the U.S. election was of general international interest (not to mention it was far more dragged out). As in that case, results here will yield an ITN update. That election and this election are being covered similarly. -- tariqabjotu11:50, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I dunno what's the equivalent of a hung parliament in presidential democracies? The second round? If there's no second round? What happened in Florida in 2000? Anyway it balances itself out, ITN adds nominations for both parties, for the U.S. –HowardtheDuck12:00, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I suggest we put a "sticky link", like this at the bottom of ITN for the UK election and, if it works well, all other major elections in future. I went and added it then immediately self-reverted just so I could provide an illustration. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:58, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Guys, just wait for the results (or exit pools) and add the item then. We never put side links for elections. --Tone16:02, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In my opinion, it should definitely go up before the results are totally out. For international folk: it's 5pm BST. Polling stations have been open since early this morning, and BBC News has been talking about it all day. Polling closes at 10pm, which is when the results TV shows start. They run through till 6am tomorrow. Won't people be getting home from work and looking for this article right now? Alex Muller16:06, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm inclined to agree- I don't think the blurb should be up yet, but I like the link at the bottom. People are going to be looking for information on this, so it makes sense to have it on the MP and I think this is a good opportunity for WP (and ITN) to prove it can be flexible. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:17, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose posting before we have something to say about it. Everybody who is even mildly interested in it, and plenty who are not, knows that the British public are voting today. Given the interest (and the uncertainty), I suggest posting a piece when it becomes mathematically certain that one party has won the largest number of seats; and an update when(/if) there is a change in Prime Minister. These are similar to the rules we use for elections in other countries. Physchim62(talk)16:14, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think enough readers are looking for this article right now to justify reverting yourself and leaving that up, HJ. Then people should use the search or Google. That link is opening up a floodgate that should not be opened. There is simply no reason for that link to be there, except for the fact that people do not understand the purpose of ITN. Yes, it's the day of the election, but that article will get few updates until the results are announced (or begin to be announced or whatever). We hold off on posting all sorts of major news items -- and, heck, the election in the Mauritius -- simply because we don't have an update. It took more than twelve hours for the Times Square bombing to be posted because people were debating whether that was real news. And yet people are suggesting having a non-news item -- yes non-news because it's nothing other than "people are voting right now" -- with no discernible updates posted on the Main Page simply because they can't wait a few hours. Honestly, I better not ever hear any of the users supporting this motion talk about about U.S.- or other national bias again. -- tariqabjotu16:16, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that's kind of disappointing. Who cares if that article will only get few updates? I don't know what this magical "purpose of ITN" is, but I know what the (public) purpose of Wikipedia is: to get the most relevant information to the largest number of people as quickly and as efficiently as possible. Currently, we fail at doing that. Alex Muller17:25, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't worry Alex, nobody really knows why ITN exists, that's part of the fun, and what makes nominations, even trivial or routine ones, a joy to behold usually. Leave now and forget you ever learned of this place. Trust me, it's for the best, if you are of a logical disposition and you value your sanity. MickMacNee (talk) 17:53, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't make comments unless I can stand by them, both in tone and in substance. Despite your swipe, I have found no exception to that in the comments I have made here and there. -- tariqabjotu01:59, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There's nothing "magical" about the purpose of ITN. If you don't know the purpose, that's one thing, but I don't think it's incredibly difficult to understand. It's to show articles that are updated that are in the news (and, to be more particular, of international interest). Long debates here generally stem from the second part -- What's sufficiently in the news? What's of international interest? -- as that is a subjective point. However, here the international interest is not in dispute, and what's up for debate is what's sufficiently updated, an observation that is usually objective. "People are voting today" (or, now, yesterday) doesn't yield an update. Results, however, do, and that's why we generally wait until after the election is over and, ideally, a winner called. No reason was/has been brought forward explaining why that should change, except that there are people looking for that article. I'm not entirely certain people will come to an encyclopedia for that information, but for those that do -- and those that search Wikipedia for news items, most of which don't make it to the Main Page -- there are alternative means for finding the relevant articles. We are now a news source; hence the update criterion, which did not appear to have been met. -- tariqabjotu02:17, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed with Physchim. Post the results ONLY. Precedent and the slippery slope are important. Although some seats may take longer to declare than others, 95% should be done by 4am tonight. By that point it should be fairly clear what's happened; even if it is going to be very close, the largest party should be obvious (it'll be the Tories). Modest Geniustalk16:19, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Results only as per usual. I understand it's a big event in the UK but to everyone else it's just another election. There's even one going on in Mauritius as well! ;) No special treatment or its ends up as POV. --candle•wicke20:37, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Polling is closed. Mori exit poll for BBC/ITV/Sky says hung parliament, Conservatives 19 short of an overall majority - CON 307, LAB 255, LDM 59, OTH 29. You heard it here first. MickMacNee (talk) 21:04, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Post now, then update. I think it will be odd to people if they see a section called "In the news" and the biggest news of the year (in the UK) isn't there. There's no reason we can't have a line now that says, "British voters take part in the 2010 United Kingdom general election" and then update it with the results when they become available. There is absolutely nothing wrong with giving "special treatment" to the country that accounts for the second-most number of readers on the site. We don't have to treat the UK like Mauritius. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 21:59, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How about "Voters in the United Kingdom go to the polls to elect a new Parliament", with "elect" bold pipelinking to the 2010 election page? --Mkativerata (talk) 22:41, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
LOL @ ITN #21934. It's agonised all day whether to post news that the voting was ongoing, and only now, after the voting is over, we get the hook "voters take part in a general election". It's done, it's over. The voters 'taking part' bit has already happened. If it has to be there right now, (debatable, it says nothing really, I would rather no info than inaccurate info), it should at least mention the exit poll results - these are very credible, they are conducted by MORI and shared with all the broadcasters. Alternatively, you could mention the apparent 'scandal' of severe delays in voting in some areas, and borked lists in other areas, which may result in a legal challenge. MickMacNee (talk) 23:00, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It would also be good to post the crazy map people are colouring in over on commons. You can only just about see it now, but it will look better as the colours fill in. MickMacNee (talk) 23:04, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
wow that note about ppl voting looks so awful. people are voting in an election is not news... its an election ofcourse people are going to vote. Please remove and post when results are in. -- Ashish-g5523:16, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If it is not news why is it in every major English-language newspaper right now? The point is that putting it in ITN helps those who are looking for information on the election, and there are a lot of people in that category right now. This is why I advocated putting a sticky link on the election up for the length of the campaign. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:51, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think is a foregone conclusion anyways. But when the results are confirmed (hung) in the next couple of hours it should go on there.Lihaas (talk) 01:45, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It looks almost certain now that there will be a hung parliament, so I would recommend a blurb of "The United Kingdom general election results in a hung parliament, with the Conservative party winning the most seats." per the suggestion by JollyJanner. Obviously we will need to wait for official confirmation, but the conservatives need 40 of the 51 remaining seats, which is a tall order --Daviessimo (talk) 07:07, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
An Egyptian-led proposal for a nuclear armsfree Middle East receives support from the United States, Russia, Britain, France, and China. Israel is the only Middle Eastern nation believed to possess nuclear weapons. (Reuters)
The European Parliament calls on Canada to ensure visa-free travel for all EU citizens in a wide-ranging resolution, while expressing hope that the EU-Canada summit will speed up negotiations on a comprehensive trade agreement. (Europarl)(Isria)(MSNBC)
Two men are killed and another one is wounded when unidentified gunmen open fire at a Lexus in the capital of Russia’s Caucasian republic of Dagestan, Makhachkala. (ITAR)
Most of the sources are in French given most of their newspapers are written online in French. There is the high possibility that Paul Bérenger, of the MMM wins this election. A white person of christian religion democratically elected as leader of an African country where the most popular religion is Hinduism, doesn't happen often nowadays. Might be worth mentioning in the blurb if he wins. --99.244.91.182 (talk) 01:14, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Administrator note (sorry, I like that template :) ) the article needs to be expanded- it's a stub at the minute and so unpostable and the references will need formatting into proper citations. Any idea what time we can expect results? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:52, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
According to the AFP[44], "Vote counting will start Thursday morning and results are expected later in the day". There is Google News [45] for the most up-to-date results. --99.244.91.182 (talk) 03:33, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Can't see the news-worthiness in this. There must be elections in far flung places every week and unless they are notable for a particular reason (Burma would be an example) I don't see why every bit of world-wide democracy needs to be made ITN. Leaky Caldron08:24, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's a race against time. If the results for the UK election are released earlier than this one, the Mauritius election will be on top of the British election blurb. The Philippines will probably wait for at least a week so 2 elections will be on top of the British election blurb, unless it is updated twice. Brilliant. –HowardtheDuck12:14, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But things are stacked by the date they occurred, not the date they are added to the ITN template. So this election should always be below the UK election, and rotate off first.
That means past Philippine presidential elections won't get in since they finished counting a month after the election! –HowardtheDuck03:14, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support once we know who wins- election results for all recognised sovereign countries (plus the Republic of China and the Republic of Kosovo) should go up, IMO. Bradjamesbrown (talk) 14:57, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Can you change the wordings to: The coalition led by Mauritian Labour Party wins the country's general election with Navin Ramgoolam (pictured) remaining prime minister. This is because there are two other parties in the coalition that won. And also, the PM that won, was already PM before the election. Thanks. --99.244.91.182 (talk) 00:34, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's better now, thanks. But why is it on the third place? The death in Nigeria happened on the 5th and was already on ITN before whereas the election result has just been announced a few hours from now. --99.244.91.182 (talk) 00:48, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support, once the article gets a more substantial update. It is not often a head of state dies whilst in office - Dumelow (talk) 23:15, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
AP seems more confident and a spokesperson has confirmed it. But it can't hurt to wait the short time until the apostrophes drop from "dead".--Mkativerata (talk) 23:27, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
According to the BBC's article, "A spokesman, who did not want to be named, said Mr Yar'Adua died on Wednesday, although there has been no official announcement yet." though I grant you that's only one source. Probably best to wait until we know for certain, though. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 23:49, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The article needs more prose on the death- there's only a sentence or two, and really it needs a paragraph. That siad, given the importance of the event, I'll post it if someone adds another few lines. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:15, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've added some info about Obama's condolence message and his scheduled burial. I'm hesitant to add too much early detail lest the article be overcome by recentism. --Mkativerata (talk) 01:39, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. A new head of state of a large country like Nigeria would probably be ITN worthy in and of itself. Suggest the blurb be amended to read: --Mkativerata (talk) 08:59, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well the closest comparison I can think of is Nidal Malik Hasan whose article was AfD'd and eventually kept despite BLP1E- I've a feeling an AfD here would have a similar outcome, but the bomb is currently the last item on the template, which means it will most likely be off at the next update- I don't think it's quite outlived its newsworthiness, so it would be worth bumping it up a bit, though I'm not overly bothered where the bold link goes. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:37, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm fine with just letting this rotate off whenever something else gets added- in the end, noone died, the bomb didn't even go off. It's like American Airlines Flight 63- it may have long lasting effects the way AA 63 started the shoe carnival at airport security- but the part of this story that's major news has played out. Bradjamesbrown (talk) 21:24, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose. Had this attack been in upstate New York, it would already have fallen off the headlines. We should neither succur to those who wish their criminally stupid acts to make the headlines, nor to those who wish us to live in perpetual fear of such people. Physchim62(talk)22:41, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support this story is generating a lot of interest still. do not agree at all that this article should be merged. this has been brought up in the past and WP has several extensive articles on prominent individuals like Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, Aafia Siddiqui, Ajmal Kasab who were excessively notorious for one event only. we could update the blurb with his name since we now have a decent article and move it to the top .--Wikireader41 (talk) 01:34, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We posted when Standard and Poors downgraded Greece's debt recently. However, these strikes are having the following effects (most decribed in the linked article above):
Flights in and out of Greece halted
Trains and ferries not running on Wednesday (ferries would be pretty signficant in Greece).
(ec)Support also, when an article is created. Three people have been killed, several buildings set on fire, there are no flights into or out of the country, trains and ferries are not running and schools and hospitals have closed. Not your average day I would say --Daviessimo (talk) 15:25, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
support per above. i think the focus of the blurb should be about strike not the violence. since it should be posted with or without violence. -- Ashish-g5517:58, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A new European Jewish group, JCall, supported by thousands of European Jews is founded to lobby for a resolution to the Middle East conflict.(Jerusalem Post)(Al Jazeera)
Works for me- it would be easier to link to from the template if you can create a subheading. Please forgive my sheer ignorance of art ;). Someone'll probably create an article at some point, especially if it goes on the MP unlinked. I'd support, but for admin purposes, I'm neutral! HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:35, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have the time or knowledge to create an article for the piece, but I have updated that section. Grsz1101:41, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am so bummed that I didn't see this (must have happened after I went to bed), I would have given my Support though. I'll just have to wait to the auctions in June and July to see if the record is broken again. - JuneGloom07Talk? 11:19, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
sigh what sucks is we cant put the painting on the page. picasso should really not have copyright (or atleast images of his paintings) lol -- Ashish-g5513:05, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wait to see how widespread the disruption is. And this is coming from someone who's outbound flight was delayed by 6 days, and whose return is due on Friday. <crosses fingers> Modest Geniustalk21:36, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And I'm flying over to Europe, through Heathrow on Friday. Nevertheless, waiting is good; if this is just one day's closing of Irish and Scottish airspace, it's not significant enough to post. Bradjamesbrown (talk) 22:30, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, no need to nominate this every day. It would never gain enough support until it had at least caused as much damage before. It's back again today for a third time this week. Still, it's only Ireland. ;) --candle•wicke20:33, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: whilst this does seem significant, it's worth noting that UNASUR has not entered into operation yet. Would it not be better to wait until it actually starts up, and then post a story along the lines of 'UNASUR comes into force, with Kirchner as its first secretary general'? Modest Geniustalk19:41, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
According to our own article, 'The UNASUR Constitutive Treaty was signed on May 23, 2008, at the Third Summit of Heads of State, held in Brasília, Brazil, but not as of yet ratified by the required ninth nation.' Is this incorrect? Although some preparatory activity is underway (including setting up the relevant bank), there's no secretariat and most activities seem to awaiting that ninth ratification. Modest Geniustalk20:37, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The operativity and legitimacy of existing and/or developing policies (not to mention the designation of a secretary general itself) should be considered as effective (factual) operational capabilities of the union, regardless of the yet unfinished Constitutive Treaty formal ratification processes by national legislatures. For the permanent establishment of the regional institutions we'd have to wait some years, and yet some more so as to see their fully operational capabilities. Nevertheless, this election is of itself a major and relevant step in Unasur's institutionalization as well as regarding the union's political autonomy. Salut, --IANVS (talk | cont) 20:52, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is a big step to a more active body (a future EU-Type org.?). In particular an oft-negelcted region standing on its own and against the "global order."
I draw upon this comment by Lihaas (that I brought here from May 5 subsection), to ask about the current status of the aforementioned proposal. Salut, --IANVS (talk | cont) 20:05, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Add: Right now I cannot spend much more time at these articles. If you consider that one or two concrete additions/updates would do it for the ITN item published, please tell me. If that's not the case, then será hasta la próxima. Salut, --IANVS (talk | cont) 15:55, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
With all due respect, I don't see the logical consecuences between the domestic allegations of corruption regarding the Kirchners and the significance of a supranational body executive office. I could improvise some contrafactuals regarding the importance of a political position respective to the suspicions of personal misconduct, and the impact of these correlation on the relevance of an executive office inauguration, but there are thousands of examples known to everyone. Methinks. Salut, --IANVS (talk | cont) 18:55, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Because personally if I wanted to setup a serious political body, I'd appoint someone who isn't under a cloud of corruption allegations to run it - not just an old mate who needs a new job. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:06, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it seems you have some personal opinions regarding how international policy is made. Or regarding Latin American politics. Ok, there's nothing I can do to change your mind. (By the way, Kirchner does have current tasks, as party leader and national congressman, but it doesn't matter). Be well, --IANVS (talk | cont) 19:14, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
News significance isn't the same than news "approval", it shouldn't matter too much if we "like" the man in the news or not. The important thing about Kirchner is that he is an ex-president of a country of this organization. For significance of the news here, there shouldn't be much difference if the man elected was Kirchner, Tabaré Vázquez or Michelle Bachelet (to name a few other ex-presidents). MBelgrano (talk) 19:55, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support! :) Well, really it's about time South America appeared on ITN again; I'm not sure it featured last month at all. But, apart from that, this is the election of a secretary-general to represent a group of nations. The EU equivalent was posted and (I don't have time to check now) I think there must be some other examples of similar ITNs. As for the connection with some form of corruption, whether that be true or not, let's just say... I would disagree with its relevance when deciding its significance relating to ITN. If you go down that path it could be argued that any or even all politician(s) are corrupt and ineffective - but then none would ever, ever be posted. --candle•wicke20:30, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Oppose when it comes to nuclear weapons, the US isn't just any country, though the number isn't very surprising and I have a hard time seeing this as its own news item, given the nuclear meetings right now.. --PlasmaTwa205:59, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support AP is already reporting 29 dead across 3 states due to the flood, and more victims might be found as floodwaters recede. There is significant flooding in downtown Nashville, the 26th-largest US city, larger than New Orleans was during Katrina and like New Orleans, a major center of Southern US culture, music and tourism. In Nashville, flooding is affecting athletic and cultural buildings. Nutmegger (talk) 15:10, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have updated death toll to 19 in the state of TN - will update now to reflect other states and add infobox similar to those of other floods we've had this year (Madeira and Brazil). Nutmegger (talk) 15:52, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've added a casualties section doing the death breakdown state-by-state - 19 dead in TN; 6 in MS and 4 in KY. It's sourced to local newspapers and Wall Street Journal. Have a county-by-county breakdown for MS as well. Nutmegger (talk) 16:12, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
SUPPORT pretty big move in the light of what is happening in the Middle East. More pressure on the Israeli's it seems, especially in light of Obama's attempt to marginalize Aipac with the introduction of JStreet (they now have supporters in the other big centre of geo-politics.Lihaas (talk) 13:48, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This is about an online petition that has gathered 3,000 names, and it's disputed as to what exactly they support anyway. Hardly a major development. PopularMax (talk) 14:46, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Both the jpost (right-winged more-aipac friendly) and al jazeera have shown what they feature, that they are the euro-version of JStreet. that is almost diametrically opposites.Lihaas (talk) 15:30, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm confused. Is this about a petition or something else? Please suggest a blurb so I can properly evaluate what you are proposing. --ThaddeusB (talk) 16:13, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Its not the petition that is landmark, its the formation of the group (which was founded officially on Monday. I'll update the paraphrase for the main page above..Lihaas (talk) 20:11, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Uh, are you proposing ITN feature the setting up of a new lobbying group? Because that really doesn't sound like significant news to me. I too would like to see a blurb, because I must be missing something here. Modest Geniustalk20:39, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
T:TDYK, however, would be much more likely to run it on the main page, as the article meets the requirements for length and newness. Just format the reference to hide the bare URL, and try to find another ref to go along with it. I'm not seeing anything here that's significant enough for ITN, however. Bradjamesbrown (talk) 22:39, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support if the petition is included. Seems to have been criticised/debated by all sides, seems to involve public figures from several countries. --candle•wicke20:20, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thai elections, 2010
The Thai politic crisis that has been going on for 3 years (but espcially the last 2 months that paralyzed the capital seem to have come to an end with the announcement of elections.Lihaas (talk) 13:48, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wait till confirmed - Having followed the crisis for a while now, I find it unlikely the opposition will accept the proposed November date.[48] That said, if they do, it is n obvious support. --ThaddeusB (talk) 16:10, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
To clarify, so I can get the blurb right, is this an acceptance of a general election date and an end to the recent unrest? Also, do we have an update? I note that Thai general election, 2010 is currently a red link. I'm happy to post once there's an update, though a blurb suggestion would be nice. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 02:38, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Its not a red link, the page existed when posted above. You should be able to read it.
the election date was accepted by the protestors are now holding out for a dissolution of parliament. So i guess you can make the call on posting or not. Lihaas (talk) 08:44, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Journalists protesting against the prison death of Cameroon newspaper editor Bibi Ngota clash with police in Yaoundé as hundreds are prevented from staging a sit-in at the office of the prime minister. (BBC)
Oppose for the moment; we're going to get lots of stories like this over the coming months, so we should save ITN pieces for the really big disruptions. Physchim62(talk)22:13, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is pretty big news... its on front page (top story) of pretty much any international news paper including bbc, cnn, star, guardian... -- Ashish-g5514:13, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support if the update can be expanded beyond one sentence. I don't think the claim that it is the lead story everywhere is accurate, but it is still major news. --ThaddeusB-public (talk) 15:25, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The attack was big news, he was captured at the site and with video evidence that he participated in it. It's hardly big news that a court of law found him guilty of participating in the attack. And, on a practical note, there are still more "news" stories to come: his sentencing and his (probable) execution. Posting this conviction is to fall into the trap that terrorist crimes somehow deserve more coverage than other crimes simply because their authors are terrorists. Physchim62(talk)16:58, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've no strong opinion on this, but the conviction, while not unexpected, seems to attracting a lot of attention. If we posted this, though, I would certainly oppose the sentencing or execution. I think it's worth posting one of the three, but I've no opinion on which. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:07, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I think this was not an ordinary crime and this is no ordinary criminal. In addition to the number of victims some of them were chosen because they belonged to a certain faith / country. also the attacks were notable for widespread impact they had. India Pakistan peace process was derailed because of this attack ( and still is). Also unusual in that a Fedayeen was caught alive and finally convicted. though sentencing should happen quickly at the rate India executes its criminals it could be decades before the execution--Wikireader41 (talk) 18:08, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Question: if he is sentenced to death, how long would it be before the sentence is carried out? If it's a matter of days or weeks, we might be better off waiting for that. If longer, the sentencing would probably be best. Modest Geniustalk18:32, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - According to the BBC, even though 5 wickets fell in the over, only 3 a being given to Mohammad Aamer and they don't seem to be making much fuss about it. But again, if you can provide a source for this being the first time it has happened then I'm happy to change my vote --Daviessimo (talk) 06:57, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Sacrificial runouts (2 in this over) are a new phenomenon due to the restrictions of limited-overs cricket, but are now quite common as the wicket is worthless in that context and to just randomly steal runs in the last over. Even in ODIs, the non-striker will randomly sprint 10 metres down the pitch as soon as the ball is bowled now that you can't get Mankaded, and if it is hit back to the bowler (e.g. straight yorker) then non-striker is dead. This happened twice in a 50th over by Harbhajan Singh v Australia at the SCG in early 2008. Three wickets by a bowler in one over isn't new. Lasith Malinga took a double hattrick in the 2007 50-over WC. YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 07:04, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
support if first ever... once only thing. the reasoning or context behind it is all POV. if this happened first time ever then should be posted. Given proper updates though. there isnt much right now... -- Ashish-g5513:08, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The reason why it has never happened in 400 years is because Twenty20 has only existed for the last seven of them. This would never happen in other forms of the game, and comparing them is totally disingenuous. Besides, we're still missing a reference saying it's the first, it wouldn't surprise me if it had already happened at lower levels of the game. Modest Geniustalk18:52, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Sounds very impressive, only became interested in the sport five years ago, relatively young, it made him bleed! This from The Sydney Morning Herald: "It is highly doubtful any first-class team has managed 5-0 in an over, let alone in a World Cup. Aamer, 18, has admitted he had only picked up a real cricket ball five years ago, and the experience left his tender fingers bleeding because they were not used to the seam". The Guardian says it was "surely the greatest death over full stop". It is being reported around the world. Not a cricket fan but it seems like a sport that is popular enough to feature more on ITN. --candle•wicke19:40, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I know it's just an announcement but it sounds at least as significant as a Barack Obama speech. Since they are going to be created by a certain date, now is the time it is being reported could it be posted now (after an update, if one is needed, etc)? How often does an announcement like this happen? And Nigerians officially speak English if that helps. --candle•wicke03:45, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As a minor point, it looks like the news is from 4/30, which isn't fatal, but should be noted. That said, I don't really see any international significance in what amounts to an internal reorganization of the way the country is sub-divided. I searched, but couldn't find a single news story about this other than the one AllAfrica.com post. As such, I'll oppose at this time, but am open to reconsidering my decision. --ThaddeusB (talk) 04:19, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wait for official confirmation, which should come in a few hours time. The current NYT headline – "United and Continental Said to Agree to Merge" – is not the sort of certainty we usually look for on an ITN piece, and the NYT story is based entirely on anonymous sources. Apart from that, I've no problems with posting a story of this nature: indeed it's nice if we can find consensus for a business story from time to time. Physchim62(talk)01:46, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose if it hasn't been confirmed as that would be posting speculation and rumours based upon what anonymous "people" who have been "briefed" have said. Sounds quite suspicious and more than a little tabloidy. --candle•wicke03:16, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The update to the article is a tad weak, in my opinion. Or perhaps because it's because every section in that paragraph begins with "On X Y, Z date ...". -- tariqabjotu11:33, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
According to [53], "Both a full-scale Justice Department review and Senate hearings are expected, and the Obama administration has vowed to step up enforcement of antitrust laws." and so technically the merger could still be prevented. I'm not sure it should be up if further hearings could prevent the merger, as it has not been fully finalized. SpencerT♦Nominate!21:35, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think we're applying the same criterion as to other big mergers (eg, British Airways–Iberia): the merger is subject to administrative (anti-trust) approval, but that's all. Physchim62(talk)22:17, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, shareholder and union approval, as well. But the hook says "agree to merge", which is sufficient qualification. Or does the "forming" language that follows cause ambiguity?--Chaser (talk) 00:46, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There have also been Continental shareholders filing suit against the merger [54]. In addition, a proposed merger between United and US Airways was barred in 2000 by the Department of Justice based on antitrust reasons. SpencerT♦Nominate!00:51, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
While true, there have been three major things since then- American/TWA, 9/11, and Delta/Northwest- combined they say there's not much that can be learned from a 2000 decision about UA/US. (Not to mention that UA/CO/US already enjoy a limited form of antitrust immunity as part of Star Alliance, which was granted after the UA/US rejection.) Bradjamesbrown (talk) 00:56, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A group of Asian finance ministers announce a new US$700 million bond fund to promote the issuance of local bonds because of the guarantee the new funds would provide potential investors. (The Wall Street Journal)
Japanese supercentenarian and oldest living person in the world Kama Chinen dies 8 days short of 115 and leaves French supercentenarian Eugénie Blanchard as the oldest living person.
ITN candidates for May 2
Johnson & Johnson recall
Johnson & Johnson headquarters in New Jersey, United States
Nom: sounds like a pretty major recall - "a vast portion of the children's medicine market" in the USA is affected. Any update probably should go in its own article as the main J&J article would result in undue weight. --ThaddeusB (talk) 01:53, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Chris Solinsky ran 26:59 in his first 10k race ever becoming the first non-African in history to break the 27 minute barrier. Greatest American track performance since 1996. [56]— Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.247.218.30 (talk • contribs)
Support First time ever a non-East African has gone under 27:10, much less 27. Time is also the Americas Record (North America, South America and Caribbean). Also beat the Olympic Record time. Canadian Simon Bairu set the Canadian Record and Kenyan Sam Chelenga set the Collegiate Record in the same race. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.247.218.30 (talk • contribs)
Why then was the "Floyd Mayweather vs. Shane Mosley" on the front page? This is far more notable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.247.218.30 (talk • contribs)
The item is clearly not going to be featured, so your concern is unfounded. That said, when did anyone other than you mention race? A North American continental record is not the same thing as a "white guy record". --ThaddeusB (talk) 23:26, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
First white guy was my initial take on the hook as well. It's a reasonable misinterpretation of what was being suggested.--Chaser (talk) 23:42, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. This doesn't seem to have much international coverage. If an African had that continent's greatest track performance in only 14 years and beat an American-only record the same might be true, i.e. it wouldn't be noticed outside Africa. --candle•wicke03:04, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Though I still think it should have been featured, the reasons why it shouldn't are also equally valid. And as far as race goes, Africans are by far the best in the sport. I'm not sure why acknowledging that they are better at something is being interpreted as racist. If an African swimmer were to break the 15 minute 1500 meter barrier it would also be worthy of mention, despite not being a world record, as it is a major barrier and would signify their emergence into the sport.98.247.218.30 (talk) 04:46, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I suspect the Kevin McE mistook African American for African, presuming the hook would have been basically a record about a non-black runner. But of course, African technically makes no racial demarcation, after all there are plenty of white Zimbabweans and South Africans who are 'African' and North Africans from Egypt, Morocco and the like are a predominantly different ethnic group, so in reality the comment was unfounded. --Daviessimo (talk) 07:05, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment--If a football team from outside Europe or South America won the World Cup for the first time I think we would consider including that detail in the inevitable blurb on the World Cup. I don't think the significance of a non-East African runner here is any different. That said, Oppose.--Johnsemlak (talk) 18:32, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Due to conclude either tonight or tomorrow (depending on how close the game is). Listed on ITNR so should be a formality when updated --Daviessimo (talk) 08:25, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support immediate posting, with a later refactor to announce the winner, which may not be known until late tommorrow. I've updated Higgins article on what is a serious sporting scandal. Suggested blurb:
I can't express how strongly I'm opposed to this. Putting a weakly-sourced, highly negative item about a BLP on the main page of the encyclopaedia? Two of the three sources given are the News of the World, which while they make their living with this level of thing, we should be able to rise above. Support posting world champion, though. Bradjamesbrown (talk) 16:34, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. I think we're OK as far as libel with the hook above (but IANAL). However, BLP is also about the negative impact on individuals' lives. Higgins has a plausible explanation for this video, so I'm not keen on putting the allegation on our front page.--Chaser (talk) 16:37, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Where are people getting this idea that BLP means Wikiepdia just pretends notable events just never happened? This article update does not violate BLP. It is appropriatley sourced and attributed, and entirely neutral and in correct proportion to the severity and coverage of the allegations. Any talk of libel is just nonsense. If people want to keep abusing BLP! in this manner, people will simply stop writing and for and reading Wikipedia. It is getting beyond a joke now, I am convinced people don't even bother to read the policy they invoke with the three magic letters. MickMacNee (talk) 16:50, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The sourcing (BBC and Telegraph) is fine for the article. But they're both reporting that the supermarket tabloid News of the World claims to have a video and promises to publish more next week. Even if everything the tabloid alleges is true (and Higgins and Mooney admit as much about the contents of the video), Higgins' claim about the video is plausible. Mooney, despite resigning, corroborates Higgins' story that they feared for their safety and just wanted to agree and get out of the country. That level of complexity can be stated in the article, but it can't be encapsulated in a ten or twenty word ITN hook, which is all many front page readers will see about Higgins. So I oppose posting.--Chaser (talk) 17:06, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not changing anything. The suggested blurb is accurate and BLP compliant. I am truly sorry that this site is in such a state, people can't see that. MickMacNee (talk) 17:16, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The proposed blurb is BLP compliant, IMO. However, I am uneasy about combining the WC results with a only marginally related story. I am also uneasy about two postings back-to-back for the same sport. On the other hand, I don't know how valid it is to exclude one story based on the inclusion of another, so overall call me undecided. --ThaddeusB (talk) 17:21, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
For me, the logical thing to do here is apply the same rationale we would do with any criminal case and assume innocence until otherwise proven. At the moment, Higgins has been accused of taking a bribe and it likely that an investigation will follow, during which time he will more than likely be suspended. Nothing has been proven as of yet and we never normally post a criminal story until there is a definitive outcome, usually through the means of a sentence being handed out by the courts (for case in point look at the Goldman Sachs nominations of recent weeks). Thus, I would argue we should list the winner of the World Snooker Championships, as per normal and wait on Higgins until there is a definitive outcome of any case brought against him --Daviessimo (talk) 17:31, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
He is already suspended, and there is no suggestion he has actually fixed a match, or taken a bribe, only that he allegedly planned to. Therefore, there won't be any trial here, there is nothing actionable in that sense. That doesn't stop it being a major scandal in a world sport though. This is a matter for the WPBSA only, who will either ban, clear, or otherwise deal with Higgins. With the last major sporting scandal I am aware of being posted to ITN, Crashgate, news of that was also posted before any proceedings had taken place, and even in that, where something had actually happened, no trial took place. For the purposes of ITN, interest in this story will never be higher than right here, right now. Ignoring it, while posting the result of the final, when all sources are saying this has had just about the same effect on snooker as the Crashgate revelations did on F1, will frankly just be perverse. MickMacNee (talk) 18:00, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support World Championship result ONLY. Regardless of BLP issues, the Higgins allegations are a) just that, allegations, b) not notable in themselves, c) only tangentially related and d) make the blurb too long. Modest Geniustalk20:09, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not notable in themselves?. It is a huge scandal in a world sport, it has totally eclisped the ongoing world final. Only tangentially related? He is the defending champion, one of only five Snooker knights, one of only four players to ever win it three times in the history of the sport. Wonders never cease with ITN tbh. I shudder to think what could be considered a more notable snooker scandal. Steve Davis decking the frail Alex Higgins when he appeared yesterday maybe? MickMacNee (talk) 12:41, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
He was knocked out in the second round, ergo he is not related to the final. He is no longer defending his title, because he has been knocked out. The Higgins story really has nothing to do with the world championship final. Notability can be argued either way (I happen to think it isn't), but the relationship to the final is clearly circumstantial and merely down to timing of the allegations. Modest Geniustalk18:57, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You won't find this assessment of yours repeated in any credible source, nobody who knows anything about this incident or the sport of snooker would believe it for a second, and it depresses me that ITN might be used to give out this totally false impression of events to the rest of the world. Barry Hearn certainly recognises that this is no mere coincidence, or that the scandal is of little notability, and he is certainly not extremely relieved that Higgins was already knocked out. We are after all dealing with allegations of throwing matches, so pretty obviously, the absence of the defending champion is not unimportant, even if we were to sit here and pretend that this does not have wider ramifications for, and is not totally bound up in, the credibility and standing of the sport, from this final onwards. The true irony, which goes to the heart of the impact of the scandal and which is why Barry Hearn is having a heart attack right now, is precisely because the final this year was a total non-event, and this scandal threatens to destroy his masterplan for fixing that. The only way ITN could possibly ignore this news, while still posting the result of the final, is if it pretended it really was just a sports ticker. Everybody here knows that isn't what it is supposed to be (not least because it is as slow as hell in even fulfilling even that basic function). MickMacNee (talk) 01:26, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well of course the release of the footage was timed to attract the maximum possible attention - that's journalism. And yes, it's resulted in a lot of media attention which has mostly been diverted from the final. That doesn't mean the story is intrinsically related - as I mentioned, it's down to the timing of the allegations. I never suggested the timing was coincidental - it clearly was not. Modest Geniustalk19:46, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If it isn't related btw, how come the BBC are beginning each session of their coverage of this final with a rundown of the situation, and have Higgin's statement and Hearn's interview on a running loop for these bits? MickMacNee (talk) 17:15, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Don't look at me. I think that it would be a hundred times worse for Wikipedia to post the result of the final and ignore the elephant in the room, so I'm not going to update it myself, if that's all right with my volunteer collegues.... MickMacNee (talk) 01:26, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not extraordinary in the slightest. There have only been about 6 Aussie players in the final stages in 70 years and over 90% of players since 1980 have been UK nationals. Leaky Caldron20:06, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That enough? I added some more sentences and an Australian source. Be careful, there seems to be an edit war going on judging by the page history. ;) --candle•wicke02:10, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I converted the article from a list of facts to prose, Candlewicke expanded it a bit. I'll come back to it and see if there is anything to add in another 15 or so. --ThaddeusB (talk) 02:11, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well done guys. Brilliant Elephant pictures. Very apt, seeing that yesterday, in the morning sports bulletins the scandal was covered first, with the final result being reported as a footnote, and by the evening it wasn't even being reported at all while the scandal still made top billing. Today, nothing but the scandal. Front page, middle pages, back pages. Still, whatever you guys use to figure out significance, I'm sure it works most of the time.... MickMacNee (talk) 12:32, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Totally agree. The best improvement someone here thought to make was add that Robertson's mother had travelled from Australia and that his g/f was pregnant so couldn't attend. Let's hope we get a bit more sensible consideration when the outcome of the disciplinary investigation is published sometime in the next 2-4 weeks. Leaky Caldron12:40, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Obvious support Really, people? Yeah, we don't post many successful car bombs, primarily because they happen in places where car bombings are more common, and hence they do not make it much into the news. But, this is the top story on nearly every major news outlet in the world. Yes, that may be because this is New York and not Baghdad, but that's the point; a thwarted car bombing in the middle of New York City is news, while a thwarted car bombing in Baghdad is not. That's how news works; if it's unusual given the circumstances, it's news -- save the systematic bias card for another time. Open your newspaper. Visit your favorite news site. This is very much in the news and we have a decent article on this; this ought to be a no-brainer. -- tariqabjotu13:13, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Very well, I don't want to set a precedent of reporting failed attempts, but the attention this is getting is undeniable. Weak support. Bradjamesbrown (talk) 13:38, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. Happens more often in targeted killings. But, it's quite obvious this was not a targeted killing whether it's technically "terrorism" or not; and for that reason, this type of incident, whatever you want to call it, is rare. -- tariqabjotu13:52, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As horribly systemic the bias here is, I support due to the obvious rarity of this event, even if unsuccessful. That and it's covered pretty widely. f o x16:07, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'll change my mind and Support, I see the point from the supporting arguments, especially if similar attacks have been posted before. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:13, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Ok, the consensus is established, however, I think this headline sticks out like a sore thumb, looking like a local interest item. I also think that maybe we're feeding into the mainstream news media hysteria about "the terrorism monster". __meco (talk) 17:46, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And that was my initial argument for not posting it, but as similar stuff has been posted before and the media does get obsessed about it so its difficult to ignore :(. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:51, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'd prefer to wait until the deal has finally been approved by the eurozone governments, which should be around the end of the week. Physchim62(talk)20:21, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A major pipe rupture in Weston, Massachusetts leaves up to 2 million people in the Greater Boston area without drinkable tap water for 59 hours. (Boston Globe)
The two fight later (9 pm EDT, 0100 UTC tomorrow) but we should probably start discussing it now. These are easily two of the three best fighters in the world. But technically this isn't a title fight (Mosley would lose his welterweight title with a defeat, but Mayweather can't win it). ~DCTalk To Me14:51, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Before saying that this is a fight between 2 African Americans, judging by the "International broadcasting" section this seems pretty well-followed elsewhere. Being shown on free TV in Mexico, China, and the Philippines, the latter two in the late morning hours. –HowardtheDuck17:07, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Eh oh no, here we go again we restrictive thinking that "not a title fight = not news". We had this mistake with the Pacquiao-De La Hoya fight we shouldn't do that again. If it helps, in most rankings (such as the The Ring's and BBC's), the two boxers are ranked 2nd and 3rd. –HowardtheDuck00:53, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It was broadcast in at least 29 countries, and in the news in even more. How does that translate into no international interest. If the "most highly anticipated welterweight matchup since ... 1981"[57] can't make ITN, than what fight can? --ThaddeusB (talk) 16:03, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What is, or is not, important is a matter of opinion. Saying this is not important doesn't make it so. What is not in doubt, is that the event was covered in a lot more places than the USA. In fact, it was a much bigger deal in several other countries than in the USA. --ThaddeusB (talk) 19:29, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Banning the championship results of entire world sports from ITN, while posting just interesting matches like this for others, is not a sustainable position for ITN. MickMacNee (talk) 15:45, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Meh... by this thinking, strawweight title fights have a bigger chance of being posted at ITN. Titles don't matter in boxing anyway... now they're into money and the two boxers split up the US$25 million prize pot. –HowardtheDuck15:50, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well yes, ITN is rapidly becoming the standing contradiction to NOT#NEWS, Wikipedia's very own news ticker, even though a ticker format would actually allow this irrelevant behemoth of a section to be evicted and allow the Main Page real estate to be better used for the beneift of actual content writers and encycolpoedic content readers, rather than the improper self-serving risk-reward mechanism which means Wikinews, now and forever, sucks balls, and debates as to whether Gillian Duffy was involved in a notable incident this week as total contradictory farce. You won't find me disagreeing with the idea that ITN/C's stock and trade is pure random POV btw. This week it will be money, next week it will be titles, a week later it will be television subscribers, and all day everyday it is page views or not page not views, depending on where the story comes from. MickMacNee (talk) 16:11, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If you have a decent reason that this non-title fight is so significant, other than 'its in the news', which as everyone knows, is bizarrely not the criteria for In The News, then it of course is going to apply to other fights as well, lending itself to some sort of sensible rule change which recognises boxing's unique features, rather than just justifying it by effectively saying, IAR means ITN/C can just be random bollocks all day every day, which runs into the problem that only the supporters are the people that think that the nomination succeeding represents the goal of IAR, improving the pedia. Quite obviously that is a paradox, but a common one when IAR is invoked. IAR is as misunderstood as BLP nowadays tbh. MickMacNee (talk) 17:08, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It has international interest? I don't see the criteria that a championship must be disputed. The two boxers are ranked numbers 2 and 3 in almost all pound-for-pound rankings (there is no universal ranking). This is not tennis where Federer and Nadal (or Djokovic) can play each other multiple times a year -- boxers only face each other at most thrice in their careers, and "trilogies" are rare. Plus, not all of those ranked are guaranteed to face each other at least once due to age, weight division (it'll be unfair for Bernard Hopkins to face... say Celestino Caballero), who handles them and the different sanctioning authorities. –HowardtheDuck17:28, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As for rule changes, the fights that have the most press nowadays always involve anyone who is in the top 3 of the pound-for-pound rankings, whether it is a title fight or not. Examples are the Pacquiao fights (including his ITN-snubbed fight vs. De La Hoya) and the also ITN-snubbed Mayweather-Marquez fight. Both fights didn't have title belts on the line but drew a lot more attention than say a world championship fight for bantamweights. –HowardtheDuck17:47, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Like I said, it looks like being simply 'in the news'. Your arguments aren't convincing me that posting this serves anybody who isn't already a boxing fanatic, and therefore knows all about the fight already. That is not international significance in ITN terms, it is turning the Main Page into a news ticker for boxing fans. And correct me if I'm wrong, but the only way boxers are ranked 2nd and 3rd, is through the title system? Big money fights? That doesn't translate to anything tbh. A movie can smash all box office records and its still touch and go whether it gets posted, so I don't think merely being a widely watched critically acclaimed big money earning film would cut it at ITN/C. Which is pretty much all this fight is by comparison. MickMacNee (talk) 18:17, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So how do you measure international interest significance? Note that previously, you can only satisfy one criteria (international significance or interest) and you're good to go. When I read the new criteria, it basically says, you'd just have to obtain consensus. –HowardtheDuck18:24, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
By proving that not just boxing fans took notice of the fight maybe? Should be easy if it eclipses or is at least equal to title fights of the same class, in importance. Something, anything, that does not resemble an argument that routinely fails for other listings, frequently, meaning that this looks for all the world like just another POV listing. Reviewing above, nearly every argument presented has failed before for other listings, and the reduced importance of title fights in boxing is not enough to explain that away, especially given other world championships in other sports are simply banned, and as said, this model patently wouldn't even translate to a different field like movies on current working practices. MickMacNee (talk) 18:54, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
By hyperbole? Let's see. I dunno if the Philippines is just a boxing-crazed nation, but it was shown live late morning to early afternoon on one of the largest TV networks in the country, preempting all programming until the fight has ended (actually it's delayed by an hour since they'd have to make way for a gazillion ads). It's safe bet, the network won't risk doing that if only boxing fans will watch. Same case in Mexico.
I think its well known the Philippines love their boxing, no? And yes, 'it was on this network in this country that loves it', was an argument that failed for the banned sport I'm thinking of. MickMacNee (talk) 19:40, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
WTF, no "entire world sport" has been "banned" from ITN. Plus, boxing is one of the most internationally participated in sports there is. --ThaddeusB (talk) 16:03, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I'm not a mind reader. Is this what you were looking for? If you are referring to the "banned" comment, yes I am quite sure no sport - or anything else - has been banned from ITN. --ThaddeusB (talk) 17:14, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I do find it a little weird that we post a non-title fight when we have items like the KHL below that had enough support and yet were not posted. And I'm pretty sure pro wrestling (Wrestlemania) was shot down for itn pretty damn fast, so if you are looking for a ban, it's pretty much right there. --PlasmaTwa221:28, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I supported both KHL and IPL (I suppose the "banned" comment is referred to one of those). They both were slightly net support, but neither got posted. Those who opposed mostly did so on the basis of level of competition. That isn't a valid argument here. Title or not, this was the biggest fight of the year and will likely remain that way. As explained, titles aren't currently very important in boxing. "Other stuff" is also a poor argument to begin with - mistakes are naturally made and shouldn't be used to justify further mistakes. And its not like the KHL championship was the world's 2nd best vs. 3rd best teams anyway, so comparison is invalid. Additionally, the only reason it wasn't a "title fight" is because Mayweather said he wasn't interested in claiming Mosley's title.
Finally, keep in mind that the level of update also matters. IPL and KHL were both minor updates to the article (i.e. minimal new prose added). This update was much more extensive than either of those. --ThaddeusB (talk) 21:46, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"biggest fight of the year"? I can think of two earlier fights this year that have also been described as this, and they were title fights, and the title was important. Arguments of the form "biggest XYZ of the year" are never going to suffice as an argument for ITN, if it wants to be taken seriously as a process. MickMacNee (talk) 17:13, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Kentucky Derby is today. Once results are known and the article is updated with sufficient prose, I feel strongly that it should be posted. The Derby is the most prestigious annual horse race in the world. (If you doubt that, check this unofficial search - everything is about the Derby). The phrase "Kentucky Derby" gets 14,000-20,000 news hits per year (Based on the last 10 years). --ThaddeusB (talk) 14:08, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I don't really see why three American horseraces should go on ITN/R, I'm not opposed to one of them going on though. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 14:54, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
They get a lot of coverage. I'd have no problem with other ones being added, but I'm not sure how popular the sport is elsewhere. ~DCTalk To Me15:00, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Meh, while I support the Kentucky Derby,in the hierarchy of the Triple Crown, it's the least important of the three. I guess I'm indifferent to the others, though the Belmont would be a shoe-in if it results in a Triple Crown. Bradjamesbrown (talk) 15:11, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - The Grand National was nominated earlier this month and the discussion that it prompted seemed to just peter out. I would support the listing and inclusion of the Kentucky Derby (US) on ITNR along with the Grand National (UK) and Melbourne Cup (Aus), all of which are significant cultural events within their countries of origin. That would be three horse racing events on ITNR and even though they may not be the most prestigious they are the ones which are most widely followed by non horse racing enthusiasts. Any others can be considered as and when they are nominated. Regarding the Triple Crown, I presume that refers to any of the triple crowns as opposed to just the US one. --Daviessimo (talk) 16:16, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Davissimo, with the caveat that we may struggle to get decent articles for all of these (how much is there to say about a horse race anyway, except the runners, riders, and finishing order?). Modest Geniustalk20:31, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I know I'm rather late, but I believe the previous ITN/R decision was not to put up an item about this unless the whole Triple Crown was won and was applied to the previous 2 Kentucky Derbies, if I can remember correctly. SpencerT♦Nominate!03:05, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Don't let my posting it discourage you from working on it. The fact that Wikipedia articles are continuously in progress is an intergral part of the project, something newcomers will see when they see it changing before their eyes. Just drop a note at WP:ERRORS if something in the ITN hook needs updating. Thanks for your hard work on this one.--Chaser (talk) 17:31, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Administrator note I'm not seeing much of an update... HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:35, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
Posted. --ThaddeusB (talk) 21:05, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
Administrator noteEraserhead, can I ask if you're still opposed to this? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:45, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
Done - blurb updated as suggested. --ThaddeusB (talk) 12:08, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
