Wikipedia talk:Good article nominations

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Good article nominations

This is the discussion page for good article nominations (GAN) and the good articles process in general. To ask a question or start a discussion about the good article nomination process, click the Add topic link above. Please check and see if your question may already be answered; click the link to the Frequently asked questions below or search the Archives below. If you are here to discuss concerns with a specific review, please consider discussing things with the reviewer first before posting here.

Problematic review

Talk:Arrangement of lines/GA1 was started by User:Electrou over a week ago with a two-sentence "review" with no depth, detail, or source checking, and no action to change the actual nomination status of the article. The reviewer is apparently a very new Wikipedia editor. I pinged the reviewer and suggested mentorship, several days later, but have received no response and their only edit after the ping was to claim to go on wikibreak for a week (an odd thing for a brand-new editor to know how to do, but whatever). This nomination is over nine months old; it was, until Electrou picked it up, one of the five oldest unreviewed nominations, and is in the stretch goals for the current reviewing drive, but I am concerned that the outcome of this non-review will be to put it back in the pool after the drive is over and let it continue to languish. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:38, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

• I've been out of the loop for too long to say if it's couth to consider the review a non-review, but I know as a lay person, I had questions about the comprehensiveness of the lede as well as some of the phrasing ("intuitively") and the fact that the first reference doesn't show up until the fifth paragraph (counting the three in the block). So yes, I agree that this definitely needs a review that looks at the article vis-a-vis the GA criteria. That being said, I felt my eyes glazing over before I reached the end of the discussion of the planes, so I wouldn't be competent to give a review if a new review became needed.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 23:50, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks! This is already more useful for improvement than the review. —David Eppstein (talk) 01:23, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

I’m willing to take over the review if no one more competent than me can (i’m not great at math stuff) IntentionallyDense (talk) 00:49, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Of course it's my first review, anything can be better, and I went on a wikibreak due to rapid edit conflicts. I'll give a more detailed review later. Electrou (formerly Susbush) (talk) 18:39, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

To be blunt: it is not merely a case of "could be better": this review clearly paid no heed to our norms or explicit written guidelines for GAN reviews. An attempt was not properly made. Remsense ‥ 论 18:42, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

@David Eppstein What did you just say! You called me a "new editor". Excuse me, I have 500+ edits, I took wikibreak due to rapid edit conflicts. I even gave you the response, look at the message above. Electrou (formerly Susbush) (talk) 18:41, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

You are inexperienced by GAN standards, and given your apparent ignorance of those standards, this characterization is what you probably want, rather than the alternative being "experienced but clearly negligent". Remsense ‥ 论 18:46, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

It appears I didn't read the GA standards. I'm just not very good at reviewing, trying to get help Electrou (formerly Susbush) (talk) 18:48, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Before any of this continues, I'd like to drop a quick reminder of WP:BITE. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:44, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

If they claim themselves not to be a new editor, I would presume they would like to hear an unvarnished appraisal of their conduct. Remsense ‥ 论 18:47, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

With an account only two months old and only 462 edits in mainspace, I would like to gently advise Electrou that they are, indeed, very new and inexperienced by Wikipedia standards, and would do well to thoroughly read and understand the guidelines for any focused activity here, whether that be reviewing GA nominations or requesting advanced permissions. ClaudineChionh (she/her · talk · contribs · email) 00:42, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

@ClaudineChionh shut up, I have 855+ edits it we count all namespaces, I'll thoroughly review the policies and guidelines. Electrou (formerly Susbush) (talk) 02:17, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

For your first reading assignment: never speak to another editor like that ever again. I'm not an administrator, but I wouldn't blame any admin who blocked you the next time you told another editor to "shut up". Remsense ‥ 论 02:22, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

@Remsense bro I'm not reading a very long policy Electrou (formerly Susbush) (talk) 11:08, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Then stop wasting everyone else's time pretending you want to improve. You do not. Remsense ‥ 论 11:10, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

@Remsense bro what does that even mean Electrou (formerly Susbush) (talk) 11:21, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

I genuinely do hope things go well and you get advice that helps you, but the things I am saying do not seem to be helping, so I'm disengaging from this conversation. Remsense ‥ 论 11:31, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

I got a new message on my talk page saying to AGF (assume good faith). Electrou (formerly Susbush) (talk) 01:39, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

civility is one of our 5 pillars and it is expected that all editors, new or not, understand and adhere to it. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 11:12, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

462 edits is better than the average newcomer Electrou (formerly Susbush) (talk) 02:19, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Per the link to policy above: experienced editors are trying in good faith to give you advice. You need to change your attitude considerably: stop arguing with them as if you would know better or as if you have some impressive reputation you have to defend—you do not. Remsense ‥ 论 02:56, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

@Remsense bro, have you read the good faith policy or it's related policies, the reason why I said "shut up" is because they called me "very new", but I have 855 total edits and 462 mainspace edits. That's literally better than the average newcomer with 10 edits. Do you actually understand who is a newcomer and who isn't? A newcomer is an editor with 10 edits (autoconfirmed). Electrou (formerly Susbush) (talk) 10:47, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

• Electrou, while you are indeed past the threshold of "new" used to identify autoconfirmed editors, 462 mainspace edits does not mean that you are a seasoned and experienced editor with a firm grasp of Wikipedia and Wikimedia policies, guidelines, and manuals of style. When choosing to review articles at the GA level, at least a basic understanding of the expectations should be shown.

Also, Remsense is correct that your decision to tell another editor to "shut up" is unconstructive; people are trying to advise you, help you learn, and you are rebuffing them in a manner that will only cause offense and alienate them. Continued personal attacks and combative behaviour could readily lead to a block. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 11:03, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Bro, have you read the civility policy that Remsense helpfully pointed out to you? And sure, you have made more edits than most casual visitors to Wikipedia ever make, but constantly showing off your edit count, especially in a discussion that's supposed to be about improving article quality, is giving the rest of us a poor impression of you. — ClaudineChionh (she/her · talk · contribs · email) 11:04, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

I hope you reconsider and take my advice above: frankly, I would expect a block sooner rather than later if you continue with your present attitude, and there's no use in me mincing words about that. Remsense ‥ 论 11:07, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

R.I.P. Now I'm going to get blocked (just a chance). Atleast most of them are only for a few days (like 2). And editors are giving me advice, so the more I listen to it, the less chance of getting blocked. I'll try to thoroughly review the policies and guidelines. Sorry for the rude "shut up". Electrou (formerly Susbush) (talk) 11:12, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Looks like I have started a conflict, or possibly a war. Electrou (formerly Susbush) (talk) 11:23, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

A minor scuffle and in any case not really something to be proud of. Now how about that in-depth review? —David Eppstein (talk) 17:57, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

If the reviewer does not review the article (seems like they are on a wiki-break), I am willing (and would like) to take it up for review too, as part of the backlog drive. DoctorWhoFan91 (talk) 16:42, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't think that as nominator I should be approving takeover reviewers, but I'd be happy to have any willing reviewer give the article a proper review. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:04, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I was asking in general if a new review could be started, as it seems this conversation fizzled out. I should have edited in-source instead of clicking reply. DoctorWhoFan91 (talk) 18:07, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

• Oh, sorry DoctorWhoFan91, I didn't see that you had already volunteered. I just dropped some comments. If you feel more comfortable with the math aspect, please do feel free to take over.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 17:15, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

  No, you're doing great, and I was only gonna do it in a few days if the review became available, so you're also better on the aspect of time, feel free to continue. DoctorWhoFan91 (talk) 19:34, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

  Alright, sounds good. Thanks! - and do feel free to comment if you see anything someone with a better grasp of maths might catch. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 19:40, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Scoring system

Hello, I just wanted to drop in and say that I think the bonus point system (2500 words=1 point) is way better than the bonus system used in the July 2024 drive (.5 points for every 2000 words in a single article), and I would be supportive of it being the system used in future drives. Kimikel (talk) 04:18, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback, @Kimikel! I like it a lot better too. We'll have to see what other people think once when we debrief the experiment. -- asilvering (talk) 17:07, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

GA passed without spot check

I just came across two GA reviews, from this month and July, that did not have spot checks. Is the proper procedure here to list the articles for GAR? voorts (talk/contributions) 04:06, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

FWIW, no comment on the specific GAs, but I feel the messaging that we have to do spot checks now has not been made very clear to people who don't do a lot of GAs. PARAKANYAA (talk) 04:57, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Despite this being raised a few times in the last few years, the reviewing instructions still skip over the actual reviewing part of reviewing. Ironically, the spot check is the only part of the review process that is mentioned. I maintain that we need an overhaul of the "how to review" aspect, but my starting point is still gathering dust. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 05:08, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

@Voorts both of those were my reviews, so I'll just clarify that admittedly I entirely forgot to add the spot-check when reviewing these. I will at least verify that the sourcing information on the articles was accurate from the sources I looked at in-depth during the other parts of the review process (For both Delibird and Geno I had to double check that several sources were reliable or not, or if they were verifying the correct content or not, for various reasons, and I saw no outward issues with sourcing when giving the article an overview.)

I'll do some retroactive spot-checks later for verifiability's sake, and I'll coordinate with the nominator of both of the reviews (@Captain Galaxy) if I notice anything amiss. Preferably I'd appreciate if I could just handle this editorially with the nom so we don't have to go through the lengthy GAR process, especially since the nom is not at fault here, and I wouldn't want to put them through that due to a mistake on my part. It's an easy enough mistake to rectify, so I'd appreciate if this could be handled in a less complicated manner than what has been suggested. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 16:45, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

If you looked at sources in-depth to check whether they verified the content, isn't that a spot check? Thebiguglyalien (talk) 17:32, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

@Thebiguglyalien In a sense. I just forgot to actually put down the formal process and directly tell them which sources I had looked at and verified. I am not sure if that qualifies or not, especially since it's not down on record. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 17:35, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

If you write down which sources you looked at in-depth, that meets the requirements (assuming they did!) and there isn't a need to do more retroactively. CMD (talk) 04:03, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Got it. Thanks. I have no issues with fixing this outside the GAR process. I probably should have pinged you both as well; my bad for not doing so. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:24, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Admin elections

There are thirty-five simultaneous admin elections going on in a new format. The idea is to have a discussion that does not include supports and opposes, but which simply presents information about the candidate for people to draw their own conclusions from. I thought it might be a useful contribution to add notes about GAN & FAC participation, and have done so with one candidate, here. Since there are thirty-five, it would be great if two or three others would chip in with comments on other admins on the list. I'll commit to doing the first five, tonight if I have time, and will try to get more done over the next couple of days. The discussion phase only lasts three days, so if this is helpful it should be done quickly. If anyone else is interested, please say so here and indicate which ones you'll add the notes for to avoid duplication of effort. No problem if it doesn't get done, but I think looking at how an editor behaves in content reviews, both as reviewer and nominator, can reveal what kind of person they are, and could be useful to those considering whether to support or oppose each candidate. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:55, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for doing this, @Mike Christie! This is such a huge help. -- asilvering (talk) 23:21, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

And since several have no activity, it's quicker than I was afraid it would be. I'll keep going down the list; if someone wants to chip in and help please post here to say which ones you're doing, but I might even be able to get through the list. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:19, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

•  Done Robert McClenon
•  Done SD0001
•  Done Peaceray

ClaudineChionh (she/her · talk · contribs · email) 02:39, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! I've only got half a dozen left to do so I think we're there now. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:24, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

All now done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:30, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Great! I admittedly got waylaid reading a few reviews to help me get to know the GAN process better. — ClaudineChionh (she/her · talk · contribs · email) 03:51, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

thank you both for doing that! was helpful in my voting (although i don't think it changed any of my votes)! :) ... sawyer * he/they * talk 19:08, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

+1 Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 19:27, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Is it possible to retroactively change GA subtopic?

Generally. I know most people don't care, but I do, haha PARAKANYAA (talk) 09:53, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes. Just make sure you change the location of the link at WP:GA too. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:30, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer not responding

The reviewer for one of my GANs, was started by an editor (am I supposed to ping them here?) more than 2 weeks ago, and there has been no further reviewing actions from their side for almost a week (and the prev two times they suggested changes was also a week apart). And they have also barely responding to my queries about the progress, answering vaguely. I think they might be too busy to complete the review, and unwilling to step back. Can something be done about it, bcs the GAN backlog drive is ending, and in case the GAN is readded to the list/the review gets completed, it might get reviewed properly more promptly. DoctorWhoFan91 (talk) 18:56, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

It looks like they replied and said they were going to do it. If DaniloDaysOfOurLives decides to drop it, however, I would be happy to take it on. Let me know. Viriditas (talk) 19:27, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

What do you mean "not responding"? The last time they replied was yesterday! ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 23:03, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Citing gameplay sections of game show articles

At Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Jeopardy!/2, TenPoundHammer argues that the "Gameplay" section of articles such as Jeopardy! or Wheel of Fortune (American game show) are equivalent to a plot summary and can thus be uncited per WP:PLOTREF. I don't believe that factual elements of gameplay can be governed by the writing about fiction guideline, and that the section needs citations. Opinions from others would be helpful. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:29, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

A better guideline for this would be MOS:TVPLOT, especially the last paragraph:

For non-fiction series, such as talk shows, game shows, news programming or reality shows, a "plot summary" may be interpreted as an outline of the show's format or gameplay rules; in such cases, the heading may be changed to "Format" or "Gameplay" as appropriate. This will likely be enough for news programming or talk shows. However, some non-scripted reality series may require summaries similar to scripted series, in which case they should follow the guidelines above.

Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:52, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Of course, MOS:TVPLOT says Plot summaries, and other aspects of a program's content, such as its credits, may be sourced from the works themselves, as long as only basic descriptions are given. Exceptions to this include lost episodes (which are not available to the public to verify), for which editors are required to use secondary sources. Any content that is analytical, interpretive or evaluative should not be in the plot summary, unless it is necessary to clarify an unclear or contentious plot point, in which case it must be accompanied by a secondary source. So the question is to what extent the 3000-word long(!) §Gameplay section of Jeopardy! is a "basic description" verifiable from watching the show. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 15:10, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

GAN backlog drive almost over

Hi all, we have fewer than 90 articles left in the first list (nominations by people with fewer than 10 GAs) and three and a half days to get through them. If you haven't been taking part in the drive so far, it's not too late to join up and take on one of these, or even a handful of them! The goal we set was well in line with previous GAN backlog drive outcomes, so I know it's possible to clear this. Either way it's been a big success - we've gotten almost 200 articles off of that list! - but it would be great to get it right down to the wire.

Thanks to everyone who has participated so far! -- asilvering (talk) 17:13, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks to everyone who joined. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 17:18, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

One might suspect that the Internet Archive outage threw a monkey wrench into things, which could be considered an extenuating circumstance if the goal of clearing the first list is not attained. TompaDompa (talk) 19:11, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I hadn't thought of that, but you may be right. I think a more likely factor is "data insufficient to predict result" - most of the previous drives were held in a different month, in years where we held fewer drives. -- asilvering (talk) 19:15, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

The Bill reassessment closed too quickly

Hi everyone,

So The Bill was listed as a Good Article Reassessment. An editor was literally in the article today to address the issues raised when someone just delisted it and closed the GAR before they'd had the chance to post what they'd done.

Are you able to list it again and reopen the discussion? It was delisted literally as we were removing the information it was nominated for including and also adding sources!

We didn't think it would just be delisted as nobody had voted whether to keep or delist it. If I'm honest i thought the nominator had abandoned it! 5 albert square (talk) 22:52, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Sure, I'll reopen it. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 01:46, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

@5 albert square: and also GAR watchers: If nobody comments in the GAR, I assume that no one is interested in fixing up the article and do not include additional comments. I cannot comment on whether GAR closers look at the article history. It helps immensely if editors who are interested in fixing up the article post their intentions in the GAR. Z1720 (talk) 01:51, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Editor opened a review for his own nomination.

Putting this here, as I'm not sure what the correct course of action is:

@Absolutiva has started a review for an article he has nominated: Talk:Sex offender/GA1. SSSB (talk) 14:09, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

In the past when this has happened it's been because the editor didn't understand how GAs work. I would suggest leaving them a note and G6ing the review. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:18, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Atlanta Braves nomination

I nominated Atlanta Braves back in February and an editor picked it up for review today. Forgive me if this is the wrong venue, but the editor reviewing appears to be inexperienced in this area and could use some help. Thanks! Nemov (talk) 18:09, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I sadly do not have time to review an article of such length but that looks like a drive by review to me. Someone should re-review the article again, considering that the reviewer already promoted it to GA. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 20:37, 30 October 2024 (UTC)