Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ice Hockey/Archive83

Exceptional Player Status

Hello. Have there been discussions pertaining to the CHL's "Exceptional Player Status"? In particular, if the amount of well-known players within that group might now merit it either having its own page or a section on Hockey Canada, and other distinctions, such as a succession box, category, etc. This occured to me after Michael Misa became the latest player granted exceptional status, following Shane Wright, Joe Veleno, Sean Day, Connor McDavid, Aaron Ekblad and John Tavares. Count3D (talk) 19:21, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

I expect it merits a couple sentences in the Canadian Hockey League article, and that's about it. Ravenswing 17:40, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

I'll start there. Thanks for the suggestion. Count3D (talk) 22:48, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

3ICE

I noticed that statistics from a league called "3ICE" have been added to some articles about players. Is this league really notable enough? I don't know much about it but it seems like just an unprofessional 3 on 3 summer tournament, though it has included many pro players. Is it really notable? --Cheers! Kilaseell - Message me! - 17:42, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

That looks like some kind of exhibition tournament, which is played by retired players. Therefore, statistics to it should be deleted. Uncleben85 should have consulted here before adding those statistics to ice hockey personnel pages. – sbaio 18:11, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

That's what i thought too. I'll begin the process of deleting those statistics from articles, if I can find pages that have them. So far found two. --Cheers! Kilaseell - Message me! - 21:24, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

It's not an exhibition tournament. It's a new (two seasons) paid professional league that plays in the summer. –uncleben85 (talk) 21:40, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Ice Hockey/Requested Images

I don't know if anyone has looked here recently but it's about 15 years out of date. For the new images section, is there a way to connect it to Commons so that whenever someone uploads an image and tags it with an NHL category (ie. Boston Bruins players) it brings it here? HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 18:30, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Porin Ässät

I have been working on this article for a bit and I noticed that it has been tagged as having multiple issues. Could some more experienced editors point out what exactly is/are the problem(s) and how should I fix them? --Cheers! Kilaseell - Message me! - 08:36, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Stuart MacRae

Hi everyone - I found Stuart MacRae (ice hockey) today, and I just wanted to check with you. I don't see how he's notable for Wikipedia purposes, do you? PKT(alk) 22:53, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

He never played a game in the NHL and as far as I can tell, there's nothing notable about him. Masterhatch (talk) 22:57, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. I've prodded the article. PKT(alk) 01:19, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

You probably could have sent it to AfD, though prodding, I guess works fine. Conyo14 (talk) 05:02, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

That article is one of many with questionable notability I recently skipped over when replacing Template:HockeyDB and/or Template:Eliteprospects with Template:Ice hockey stats. The transclusions remaining for those two (hockeydb over 600, eliteprospects between 300 and 400 after excluding other types of hockey articles using those templates) may be useful lists for anyone looking for non-notable hockey player articles to delete. --NHL04 (talk) 09:49, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Byron Briske

I found this article about a player called Byron Briske. I don't think he is notable enough. Only professional games are from the AHL. He has zero NHL games. --Cheers! Kilaseell - Message me! - 11:23, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

I think you're right, Kilaseell. There's no indication or evidence of notability, and never played in a major league. Cheers, PKT(alk) 12:56, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Coaching statistics in chronological order

Should coaching statistics be listed in chronological order similar to players? @Kaiser matias: has done fabulous work in making players consistent.

Please consider Don Cherry and Robbie Ftorek as examples, where playing statistics are in chronological order, but coaching statistics are by major league and minor leagues. Looking at Newsy Lalonde, coaching statistics are now in separate tables for each league!

We as a project should consider the same chronologcial consistency for coaches as we do for the players. Comments are welcome from anyone. Flibirigit (talk) 20:02, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Who ever wants to tackle it? By all means, go for it. GoodDay (talk) 20:11, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

My intent was to seek consensus to format consistently, and update our manual of style. Flibirigit (talk) 01:09, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

First, thanks for the kind words. It was a Covid project that is nearly done (as of typing 140 NHL players are missing stats). As for the coaches, I had a style I set up years ago that I've used on a couple FAs that is in a similar style to player stats (see Art Ross and Eddie Gerard). Obviously room to improve, but my thinking is to keep it consistent as many coaches are ex-players, and it would be logical to keep them in a similar style as a result. Kaiser matias (talk) 01:36, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Unrelated to the discussion at hand, I'd be happy to take a crack at adding stats to some of those articles. The Kip 22:38, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

By all means please do so. The slowly-shrinking list is open to anyone, and the sooner it's done the better. Kaiser matias (talk) 00:14, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree that coaching statistics should be in chronological order rather than separated by league. Wracking ^talk! 02:11, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Liiga or SM-liiga

The article about Finnish championship league is currently called Liiga. The official name is SM-liiga (Long name "Suomenmestaruusliiga"). Liiga is just a marketing name. I think that the article should be moved to SM-liiga. —Cheers! Kilaseell - Message me! - 14:33, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree. This still should come down to WP:COMMONNAME, and I expect that "SM-Liiga" is used a good bit more often. Ravenswing 16:17, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

SM-liiga is often used in the news atleast. Some words like "Liigapelaaja" (Liiga player) are often used rather that "SM-liigapelaaja" (SM-liiga player). —Cheers! Kilaseell - Message me! - 16:28, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Is it okay to move the article to "SM-liiga"? @Ravenswing –Cheers! Kilaseell - Message me! - 19:50, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Alphabetical order, yes or no

Why do we have the Eastern Conference's Metropolitan Division listed ahead of the Atlantic Division, on 2013-14 to date NHL season pages? Shouldn't it be in alphabetical order, like the Western Conferences' Central & Pacific Divisions? GoodDay (talk) 16:36, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

In my opinion, it should be in alphabetical order. I also want to correct you, because not everywhere Central and Pacific divisions are listed in alphabetical order (for example, Template:NHL, Template:NHL head coaches, etc). In addition, the majority of divisions in templates at Category:National Hockey League seasons by team navigational boxes are not listed in alphabetical order for some reason. – sbaio 17:00, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

There's a strong visual intuitive logic in how they're organized, though. Visually it's west-to-east, just like looking at a map. Putting the Central Division to the left of the Pacific Division would look odd to most. Now if they were organized in rows not columns it wouldn't be distracting, but since they are columns, it looks best the way it is. oknazevad (talk) 17:14, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Feel free to do those changes, they should ultimately be in alphabetical order. Conyo14 (talk) 17:32, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm planning on doing so, beginning with the NHL season pages (2013-present), then the other related pages/templates. Will take time, of course. GoodDay (talk) 17:37, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

I believe Template:NHL was set up, with geography in mind. West to your left, East to your right. Within the Conferences, Pacific to your left, Central to your right & Atlantic to your left, Metropolitan to your right. GoodDay (talk) 20:05, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

In theory that works, but if it were in alphabetical order from left to right, I don't think anyone would bat an eye. Conyo14 (talk) 20:42, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Date formats for European hockey players

This project has a standing convention that European hockey players use the date format of their nation, which is dmy. @Quale: appears to argue that since these countries, do not speak English, this date format does not apply. Please see the edit history of Aarne Honkavaara for edit summaries to this effect. Your thoughts are welcome. Flibirigit (talk) 14:08, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

There's another point to consider: MOS:VAR says "When either of two styles is acceptable it is inappropriate for a Wikipedia editor to change from one style to another unless there is some substantial reason for the change." The Aarne Honkavaara article started out using day/month/year. So that's how it should stay. Masterhatch (talk) 15:40, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

@Flibirigit: This project has a standing convention that European hockey players use the date format of their nation, which is dmy. – not sure where you got this, but there are many pages of European ice hockey personnel that use MDY date format.

@Masterhatch: MOS:DATERET – Where an article has shown no clear sign of which format is used, the first person to insert a date is equivalent to "the first major contributor". I usually apply either DMY or MDY format when I see, which is mostly used in the page (not considering which format was used when the page was created, because the used format can evolve through the years). – sbaio 17:10, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

"[Year] in ice hockey" drafts sent to review

I have sent the following drafts to review for article for creation:

• Draft:2020 in ice hockey
• Draft:2021 in ice hockey
• Draft:2022 in ice hockey
• Draft:2023 in ice hockey

Conyo14 (talk) 17:26, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

All articles are in the main space now. Thank you to everyone who contributed to these articles! Conyo14 (talk) 20:10, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Much appreciated, Conyo! They still need a little work in some areas, but they're easily past the point of being good enough for mainspace now. The Kip 20:54, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for pushing them past the finish line Wracking ^talk! 01:22, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

WP:NCIH again...

An editor has started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (ice hockey)#The "no diacritics rule" is old-fashioned and disrespectful. Everyone is welcome to give their opinion about diacritics (again) in that discussion. – sbaio 12:29, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

NHL division championships, 1981-82 to 1992-93

For the 1981-82 to 1992-93 team seasons, I recommend we go with the regular season criteria. That's, the team that finishes first in their respective division. GoodDay (talk) 15:10, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

There is already a discussion about that above (Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ice Hockey#What does "division title" and/or "division championship" mean in NHL-related articles?) so there is no need to duplicate it. – sbaio 16:29, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm aware of this, but it died out. So... I'm asking 'here', shall we go by regular season results. GoodDay (talk) 18:51, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes Conyo14 (talk) 21:01, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Nothing should be changed until there is a clear consensus. – sbaio 18:20, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Sorry for not answering earlier and for starting the original discussion without doing my research. But I think I now understand the basic points. And I have tried to gather some additional information regarding division titles and would like to make another suggestion how to handle them.

Here is the additional information that I have gathered:

• I have checked the infoboxes and the "List of <Team> Seasons" pages for all teams which are currently active and it looks like all but three teams consistently use the regular season division titles. The three outliers are the Oilers, the Flames and the Canucks. The Oilers and Flames use the playoff division finals wins between 81-82 and 92-93 for the "Seasons" pages and for the infoboxs, while the Canucks use the regular season titles in the infobox and are inconsistent in the "Seasons" pages.
• I have also tried to find out what kind of division titles the teams themselves claim. So I did some Google and Getty image searches to find out what banners the teams have put up in their arenas. I did that for all teams which had least one regular season division title and/or won at least one division final between 81-82 and 92-93. Of course I cannot be sure that the images that I found always showed the complete information and are current but from what I've seen it looks like this:
  • Only regular season division titles: Boston, Philadelphia, St. Louis, Hartford, Washington, Los Angeles
  • Only playoff division titles: Edmonton, Calgary
  • Both playoff and regular season division titles, but marked on the banner: Detroit, New Jersey
  • Both playoff and regular season division titles, but not marked on the banner: Vancouver, Pittsburgh
  • No division titles at all, only Conference titles or higher: Montreal, Toronto, Islanders, Chicago
  • No division titles for that timespan, but for later years: Rangers
  • I have found no images for Quebec and Minnesota

My suggestion is the following: I think it is possible to have a consistent definition of "division title" an explanation of the concept and its ambiguities without losing any of the information that we already have (e.g. the information about the playoff division titles for Edmonton). The basic idea would be to do the following:

• have a chapter somewhere in the NHL article which describes the concept of "division titles" and the ambiguities,
• to clearly qualify the term "division title" when the context is not clear
• to count all division titles, be it regular season or playoffs.

Here are the changes that I think would reach that goal:

• The fact that there are no officially sanctioned "division titles" but that teams still claim them and that the teams are inconsistent with each other is a interesting fact in itself and should be documented on Wikipedia. And I even found an article which discusses the topic a little bit: [1]. I would suggest a subchapter in the "Trophies and awards -> Teams" section of the NHL article. Maybe call it "Unofficial titles" and have it read something like:
  • Apart from the NHL-sanctioned trophies, which teams normally recognize by putting up banners in the rafters of their arena, most teams also claim inofficial titles, often also by putting up banners in their arena's rafters. One example is the division title or division championship. In most of the years of the existence of the NHL, the meaning of that term was unambiguous: the team that received the most points in its division at the end of the regular season claimed the division title for that division. But between the 1981-82 and 1992-93 seasons, the playoffs were organized along divisions, with the Stanley Cup quarterfinals being named the division finals. During these years, some teams, e.g. the Calgary Flames and the Edmonton Oilers, claimed the division title when they won the playoff division finals, while other teams still used the regular season results and some teams even used both definitions. This could lead to situations where two teams would claim the division title for the same division in one season or one team would claim two division titles for the same season.
• Since there is no consistent handling of division titles between the different teams, we are not bound to a certain definition. Instead we could chose one which is used by at least one of the teams and which seems the most consistent to us and gives the most information. And to me, that's the one Detroit is using: we could count regular season and playoff division titles separately and clearly qualify each title. We could do that the following way:
  • Infobox:
    • we could qualify each division title from 81-82 to 92-93. We would not have to qualify any division titles outside of these seasons.
      • Example Edmonton: 14 (1978–79 (WHA), 1982–83 (regular season + playoffs), 1983–84 (regular season + playoffs), 1984–85 (regular season + playoffs), 1985–86 (regular season), 1986–87 (regular season + playoffs), 1987–88 (playoffs), 1989–90 (playoffs), 1990–91 (playoffs), 1991–92 (playoffs))
    • We could link the "Division championships" entry to the new "Unofficial titles" subchapter, see above, to give the reader a way to understand what this term means.
  • "List of <Team> Seasons" pages:
    • Rename the orange key to "regular season division champions" and move it from the "Division" column to the "Regular season -> Finish" column. We would have to change the contents for Edmonton and Vancouver. For some of the Original Six teams, e.g. for Montreal, this would clash with the O'Brien Trophy key, which is also in the "Finish" column. But we could move that key to the "Season" column.
    • Create a new key with a new color and symbol and call it "Playoff division champions". This key will then be used for the seasons 81-82 to 92-93 and be put in the "Division" column.

Spike (talk) 21:12, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

I have edited the part of my comment regarding the current situation for the teams because I had overlooked something _again_ Spike (talk) 21:22, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Just qualify the term division title when the context isn't clear. Conyo14 (talk) 21:40, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

We did go by only regular season titles, until an editor changed some of them (team season & team infoboxes), earlier this year. Thus muddying the waters. As result we have (for examples) the Kings & the Oilers of the 1990-91 season, being shown as Smythe Division champions. The Oilers & Canucks as Smythe Division champions, in the 1991-92 season. GoodDay (talk) 22:58, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

I've restored the team regular season & team infoboxes to regular season criteria. This was required for only the Oilers & Flames. If anyone objects or reverts? Then we'll need a RFC to settle the matter. GoodDay (talk) 19:39, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

@GoodDay: I also implemented the changes at Template:NHL seasons by team. – sbaio 18:44, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

I have added the chapter regarding division titles that I had suggested further up to National_Hockey_League#Trophies_and_awards. I would also suggest the following changes to remove possible ambiguities:

• changing "Division championships" in Template:Infobox NHL team to "Regular season division championships" (or "Regular season division titles" to not make the term too long).
• changing "<division name> Division champions" to "Regular season <division name> Division champions" in Template:Infobox ice hockey team season
• changing "Division champions" to "Regular season division champions" in the "Key of colors and symbols" on all team season pages.

Spike (talk) 17:54, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

I have reverted your addition at NHL's page, because you based half of that paragraph on a single source, while the other half is unsourced so that is WP:OR to say the least. In addition, there is no need to alter Template:Infobox ice hockey team season and Template:Infobox ice hockey team season since there officially is no "regular season" or "playoffs" champion regarding divisions. A simple note would be the best solution for that. – sbaio 18:28, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

I totally understand your issue with the second part of the paragraph. But as you may have seen from the discussion above at #What does "division title" and/or "division championship" mean in NHL-related articles? and the discussions linked in that discussion, there seems to be confusion about this topic on here and I wanted to document it and provide the explanation as best as I understood it. There would be a possible way to reference it: by linking to photos which show the division title banners in the arena rafters. I know that those are terrible sources but I think they are the best possible sources.

But, more generally, your revert, your mention of OR, and all these discussions lead me to a question: why do we even mention the topic "division titles" at all on Wikipedia? Why do we put them in team infoboxes or team season pages? Doing that also looks to me like original research because I know of no organization or publication which defines what an NHL division title is and I know of no organization or publication which records division titles. Further, the editors on Wikipedia do not even seem to agree on what a division title is. Or am I missing something? Is there some place we could cite for the division titles? Spike (talk) 19:04, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

@Spike: because I know of no organization or publication which defines what an NHL division title is and I know of no organization or publication which records division titles. – NHL quite clearly says so on their website that division winner is a regular season thing. – sbaio 14:38, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

I tried to find an explanation directly on nhl.com and I googled the terms "division champion", "division championship", "division title", "division win", and "division winner" with "site:nhl.com" and most of the hits were news articles, where the terms were used but not defined. The only explainer pages that I found were https://www.nhl.com/de/info/hockey-glossary and https://records.nhl.com/history/playoff-formats (where the phrase "division title" is only used in connection with the 1926/27 season, where it refers to the playoffs, not the regular season). Are you referring to one of these pages?

In general, I believe it would be very helpful for a reader to have the concept "division title" explained to them. Therefore I think a chapter about it would be a good idea. Maybe I could add the information from the NHL itself as references, to not make it as much of OR. How about the following?

==== Unofficial titles ====

Apart from the NHL-sanctioned trophies, which teams often recognize by putting up banners in the rafters of their arenas, many teams also claim unofficial titles, often also by putting up banners in their rafters. One example is the division title or division championship. Currently, the term unambiguously refers to the team that received the most points in its division at the end of the regular season. But in some previous seasons, e.g. the 1926/27 to 1927/28 seasons and the 1981/82 to 1992/93 seasons, when the playoffs where organized along divisions, the term without qualification could also refer to the team which won the corresponding playoff series.

Spike (talk) 17:20, 5 November 2023 (UTC) Spike (talk) 17:20, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

There’s a New York Times article that discusses the time when the Islanders attempted to hang a "Patrick Playoff Champions" banner and the NHL told them to remove it. I believe you may be able to find it linked on page 81 of this talk page archives in one of my comments (I’m not positive it’s page 81, but it should be a fairly recent one). 1995hoo (talk) 18:23, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Thank you very much for that info! I found the article and I have added the proposed chapter from above, expanded by information from that NYT article, to National_Hockey_League#Division_titles. Spike (talk) 22:00, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Those changes would introduce headaches & confusion, IMHO. GoodDay (talk) 18:40, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

References

Removal of retired numbers and HOF tables

An editor has removed tables for retired numbers (edit 1) and hall of famers (edit 2) at San Jose Sharks page citing MOS:NO-TABLES. Similar removal was done at List of New York Islanders award winners (edit). Is that supposed to be done for other teams or is that just a personal interpretation of the guideline? – sbaio 16:45, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Looks like it should be both. Those edits appear to be fine in the context of MOS:NO-TABLES. Whether they are applied to other teams in similar circumstances is up to personal interpretation though. I'm sure User:Wracking could explain a bit too. Conyo14 (talk) 17:02, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

That was me! I think it's a pretty clear interpretation of MOS:NO-TABLES, which says that lists or prose are preferred for simple lists. This is generally considered an accessibility issue (for screen readers, editors, and mobile users). I did my best to not remove any content, but please correct me if I could've done it better.

As for whether this should be done for other teams, I think it's case-by-case. For example, I think a table at Toronto Maple Leafs#Retired numbers provides useful and navigable information as 19 players have had their number retired, but it is not needed at San Jose Sharks#Retired numbers as the Sharks have only retired one player's number. Wracking ^talk! 17:03, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Personally, in the name of consistency; I feel that a prose list is fine for HOFers, but the tables seem to be a better layout for retired numbers. The Kip 04:13, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

We should keep the HOF/Retired numbers style consistent, across the 32 NHL teams. FWIW, I wish the team captains lists were also consistent, across all the NHL teams. GoodDay (talk) 17:31, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm not totally sure I understand if you think my edits were okay, and I don't want to proceed if there's an active dispute. While I understand the desire for consistency, I don't think it makes sense in practice. See above, where I provide the example of Toronto and San Jose, who have retired 19 and 1 players' numbers, respectively. I don't think it makes sense to present this information in the same manner. If a person is going from article to article for this information, they're better off consulting List of National Hockey League retired numbers, which is formatted in a consistent manner. Wracking ^talk! 22:15, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree with the edits made by Wracking. Flibirigit (talk) 01:08, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Johnny Beecher (ice hockey)#Requested move 25 October 2023

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Johnny Beecher (ice hockey)#Requested move 25 October 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. estar8806 (talk) ★ 03:09, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Flyers' alternate captains, in 2022-23 & 2023-24 seasons

@Vancouver Canucks 1 fan: & @98.21.56.147:, it would really be helpful if you both would agree on whether or not Sean Couturier is/isn't an alternate captain for the Flyers in the 2022-23 & 2023-24 seasons. At the moment we have him as being one at Sean Couturier, Template:Philadelphia Flyers roster & List of current NHL captains and alternate captains, while 'not' being one at 2022-23 Philadelphia Flyers season & 2023-24 Philadelphia Flyers season pages' infoboxes. Which is it? GoodDay (talk) 02:23, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

So, I did my digging. The IP was correct in that only Scott Laughton donned the 'A'. Sean Couturier did not play a game last season (2022–23), so he could not have been an alternate captain. The source the IP gave is the best ref for it. If Sean donned the 'A' during the pre-season, then it's a different story. Conyo14 (talk) 03:45, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

I've contacted the IP (who likely isn't aware of being contacted) & I've contacted Van, who appears to be ignoring me. Yet both of them contacted me a few days ago. Also, both have been ignoring my pings to them. Maybe, you can get them to communicate. GoodDay (talk) 03:51, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

@GoodDay

Sean Gerald Couturier (born December 7, 1992) is an American-born Canadian professional ice hockey player and alternate captain of the Philadelphia Flyers of the National Hockey League (NHL). The Flyers selected him eighth overall in the 2011 NHL Entry Draft. Couturier won his first Frank J. Selke Trophy for his play in the 2019–20 season . that's his official wiki page.

Another page I found stated this,

Sean Couturier

Couturier officially became the Flyers’ longest-tenured player when Claude Giroux was traded to the Florida Panthers in March 2023, although he hasn’t played a game since becoming that. Still, there’s no doubting Couturier’s importance on and off the ice. He’s been an alternate captain since 2017-18, which is also the year he emerged as one of the game’s premier defensive centers.

It was no secret that center was one of the team’s biggest weaknesses last season, to the point where natural winger Noah Cates was moved there in his first full NHL season. Cutter Gauthier’s jump to the NHL level should help alleviate those concerns. But if that’s coupled with Couturier returning to form, the Flyers could have a wealth of centers, especially if Cates and Morgan Frost continue to grow.

Flyers' Couturier, Atkinson Set to Return to Lineup (thehockeywriters.com)

October 9, 2023 by Andrew McGuinness Vancouver Canucks 1 fan (talk) 04:19, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

also like i said before sorry i didnt reply im busy with school im a grade 12 and i have multiple massive assignments i only edit wiki pages or reply to messages when im available, sorry for the incovenience. Vancouver Canucks 1 fan (talk) 04:26, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

These don't prove anything. So, the source the IP provided is the best one. I agree with Good Day that if you can't come up with a reasonable counterargument in the time he gave, it should be reverted. Don't fret over this btw, school comes first. Conyo14 (talk) 04:30, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

honeslty i give up thing Couturier should not be captains @GoodDay and @Conyo14 i will personally remove him from the list myself have a good day guys. i feel that couturier is not coming back for a long time possibly he is gonna retire. Vancouver Canucks 1 fan (talk) 04:34, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Umm, he's playing this season... Conyo14 (talk) 04:38, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

i think his career is winding down Vancouver Canucks 1 fan (talk) 04:39, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

their i edited it and removed Sean Couturier as the Alternate Captain of the Philadelphia Flyers. Vancouver Canucks 1 fan (talk) 04:38, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

@Conyo14 and @GoodDayi just noticed that capfriendly also lists couturier as alternate captain but i did remove him because i watch flyers games and he has No A i just watched his last game

Sean Couturier Contract, Cap Hit, Salary and Stats - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps Vancouver Canucks 1 fan (talk) 04:41, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

I've removed from all the other pages, Couturier as being an alternate captain. PS - Wish the IP would communicate more though & revert less, in future. GoodDay (talk) 04:43, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

the ip account doesnt exist anymore i looked i couldnt find it anymore. i think me and you are the main owners of the page now Vancouver Canucks 1 fan (talk) 04:45, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Check his contributions, he's still around, being basically an SPA on this topic. GoodDay (talk) 04:49, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

oh ok thanks now i found it but i still think you @Conyo14 and me are the main editors Vancouver Canucks 1 fan (talk) 04:51, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

National ice hockey teams for the Soviet Union, CIS and Russia

User:Wayne Gretzky The Great One 99 has made repeated edits to merge competition results for the Soviet Union and CIS into the Russia men's national ice hockey team. As per previous discussion at Talk:Russia men's national ice hockey team, the results are kept separate. Any newer thoughts on this? Flibirigit (talk) 18:24, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Similarly, the user has repeatedly merged results for the Soviet Union men's national junior ice hockey team into the Russia men's national junior ice hockey team, without discussion. Flibirigit (talk) 18:29, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Keep them separate. On a side note, an IP is coming now and then to remove information about Russian teams' suspension from competition due to war. – sbaio 18:55, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Please see my comment in the following thread. Flibirigit (talk) 21:07, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

The Soviet national team, CIS national team & the Russian natonal team are separate entities. They should treated as such. GoodDay (talk) 19:19, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Seconding this. The Kip 19:40, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Thirded. Conyo14 (talk) 20:42, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. Kaiser matias (talk) 00:55, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

IP addresses persistently removing information related to international sport bans on Russia and Belarus

As noted above, an IP address removed information regarding Russia's ban by the IIHF. The problem exists across multiple articles related to ice hockey and figure skating, and possibly other sports with respect to Russia and Belarus.

Here are the regularly vandalized articles I am aware of:

Ice hockey

• International Ice Hockey Federation, Ice Hockey Federation of Russia, Russia men's national ice hockey team, Russia men's national junior ice hockey team, Belarus men's national junior ice hockey team, Luc Tardif

Figure skating

• Figure Skating Federation of Russia, 2022–23 figure skating season, 2023 European Figure Skating Championships, Alexandra Trusova, Anna Shcherbakova

Here are some of the problematic IP addresses:

• 85.160.0.13
• 85.160.1.205
• 85.160.3.255
• 85.160.4.67
• 85.160.12.47
• 85.160.20.178
• 85.160.34.133
• 85.160.39.136
• 85.160.41.122
• 85.160.43.11
• 85.160.43.122
• 85.160.43.136
• 85.160.47.41
• 85.160.49.19
• 85.160.58.235

Aside from reverting vandalism, any thoughts on how to handle this? Flibirigit (talk) 21:06, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

It's a range of IPs and should be handled at WP:ANI. Likely the same person using a dynamic IP. Conyo14 (talk) 22:29, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Bring it to WP:ANI. GoodDay (talk) 22:31, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

In case you haven't seen it before, {{IP range}} is very helpful for understanding IP contributors and giving the range to an admin. You can also then see the contributions by IP addresses in that range (helpful for finding other disruptive contributions). See here:

Extended content

Sorted 15 IPv4 addresses: 85.160.0.13 85.160.1.205 85.160.3.255 85.160.4.67 85.160.12.47 85.160.20.178 85.160.34.133 85.160.39.136 85.160.41.122 85.160.43.11 85.160.43.122 85.160.43.136 85.160.47.41 85.160.49.19 85.160.58.235 Total affected Affected addresses Given addresses Range Contribs 16K 16384 15 85.160.0.0/18 contribs 5126 4096 5 85.160.0.0/20 contribs 1 1 85.160.20.178 contribs 1 1 85.160.34.133 contribs 1 1 85.160.39.136 contribs 1024 4 85.160.40.0/22 contribs 1 1 85.160.47.41 contribs 1 1 85.160.49.19 contribs 1 1 85.160.58.235 contribs 2312 2048 4 85.160.0.0/21 contribs 1 1 85.160.12.47 contribs 1 1 85.160.20.178 contribs 1 1 85.160.34.133 contribs 1 1 85.160.39.136 contribs 1 1 85.160.41.122 contribs 256 3 85.160.43.0/24 contribs 1 1 85.160.47.41 contribs 1 1 85.160.49.19 contribs 1 1 85.160.58.235 contribs 1162 1024 3 85.160.0.0/22 contribs 1 1 85.160.4.67 contribs 1 1 85.160.12.47 contribs 1 1 85.160.20.178 contribs 1 1 85.160.34.133 contribs 1 1 85.160.39.136 contribs 1 1 85.160.41.122 contribs 128 2 85.160.43.0/25 contribs 1 1 85.160.43.136 contribs 1 1 85.160.47.41 contribs 1 1 85.160.49.19 contribs 1 1 85.160.58.235 contribs 525 512 2 85.160.0.0/23 contribs 1 1 85.160.3.255 contribs 1 1 85.160.4.67 contribs 1 1 85.160.12.47 contribs 1 1 85.160.20.178 contribs 1 1 85.160.34.133 contribs 1 1 85.160.39.136 contribs 1 1 85.160.41.122 contribs 1 1 85.160.43.11 contribs 1 1 85.160.43.122 contribs 1 1 85.160.43.136 contribs 1 1 85.160.47.41 contribs 1 1 85.160.49.19 contribs 1 1 85.160.58.235 contribs 15 1 1 85.160.0.13 contribs 1 1 85.160.1.205 contribs 1 1 85.160.3.255 contribs 1 1 85.160.4.67 contribs 1 1 85.160.12.47 contribs 1 1 85.160.20.178 contribs 1 1 85.160.34.133 contribs 1 1 85.160.39.136 contribs 1 1 85.160.41.122 contribs 1 1 85.160.43.11 contribs 1 1 85.160.43.122 contribs 1 1 85.160.43.136 contribs 1 1 85.160.47.41 contribs 1 1 85.160.49.19 contribs 1 1 85.160.58.235 contribs

Wracking ^talk! 00:01, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Could these IPs be related to Max Arosev (talk · contribs)? If I am not mistaken this particular editor used to run around and remove anything "anti-Russian". On a side note, you can always ask for these pages to be protected so that IPs would not be able to edit these pages. – sbaio 10:13, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

The behaviour is similar to Max Arosev (talk · contribs). Does anyone have time to investigate? I'm busy in real life this weekend. Flibirigit (talk) 14:03, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

• AIV or ANI are the proper venues for this. Ravenswing 10:28, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Here are more problematic IP addresses:

• 85.160.0.13
• 85.160.8.188
• 85.160.12.47
• 85.160.13.25
• 85.160.34.15
• 85.160.33.188
• 85.160.34.202
• 85.160.40.33
• 85.160.42.41
• 85.160.42.156
• 85.160.43.76
• 85.160.43.136
• 85.160.44.43
• 85.160.44.111
• 85.160.49.19
• 85.160.59.111

I will be busy in real life this weekend. I hope someone else can help in dealing with this! Flibirigit (talk) 13:02, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

I've sent the links & report over to the administrator's board, for them to check over. GoodDay (talk) 14:40, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Curlie as external link

An editor tried to add {{Curlie}} at Arizona Coyotes#External links (first attempt and second attempt), which I reverted twice. I advised the editor to start a discussion here (after the discussion went nowhere at my talk page), but it instead opened a discussion at Wikipedia talk:External links#Curlie as spam. Your opinions there would be appreciated. – sbaio 15:21, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Feedback

I fixed some of the citations in this article. I added citations as well as replaced some of them with better ones. Feedback would be appreciated. – Kilaseell - Message me! - 22:11, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Awesome job! My personal preference of the "website=" is to include the ".com", or in this case ".fi". It looks like some of the references are not including "(in Finnish)" still despite only being in Finnish. Keep up the good work. Conyo14 (talk) 22:25, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

As per Template:Cite web, the correct way to complete "website=" with with the name of the web site, not a URL. For example, use Rotten Tomatoes, and not "rottentomatoes.com" Sources not in English should use the "language=" parameter with the language code. Flibirigit (talk) 02:08, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback! – Kilaseell - Message me! - 11:02, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

List of family relations in the NHL

Just a heads-up: this article is two seasons out of date and needs to be updated. I don't have time to do it myself at the moment. The Kip 19:35, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

If you have a list of family relatives who've joined the NHL, in the 2022-23 & 2023-24 seasons? I can add them to the page. GoodDay (talk) 19:43, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

I unfortunately don't - I moreso just noticed the page lists the 2021-22 season as the most-recently-completed one. The Kip 20:03, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Artem vs Artyom Zub

Howdy all,

Be aware that I've proposed to officially retitle Artyom Zub as Artem Zub and in turn swap the redirects, per WP:COMMONNAME and our own precedent with names such as Igor Shesterkin (vs Shestyorkin) and/or Teddy Blueger (vs Teodors Blugers). Feel free to input at Talk:Artyom Zub, or if this seems like an uncontroversial move let me know. The Kip 08:47, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Requested move of Mark Stone

Similar to the above, I'd forgotten, but I've also opened up a discussion at Talk:Mark Stone (ice hockey) regarding moving the page to just simply Mark Stone. Feel free to bring input if you wish. The Kip 05:25, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Division titles on re-located teams

Should we include Division, Conference, Stanley Cup/Avco trophy, etc, titles in infoboxes of re-located teams, if those titles were won 'before' the relocation? GoodDay (talk) 22:10, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

No. Because they are separate teams or something like that. Still salty about that decision. Conyo14 (talk) 01:10, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Just wanted be sure, as they're the same franchises. Examples - Golden Seals/Barons, Scouts/Rockies/Devils, Atl Flames/Cgy Flames, North Stars/Stars, Nordiques/Avalanche, Jets/Coyotes, Whalers/Hurricanes, Thrashers/Jets, etc. GoodDay (talk) 03:55, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, this would only apply to:

• North Stars (Western conference title 1990-91, Norris division titles 1981-82 and 83-84)
• Nordiques (Avco Cup 1977, WHA division titles in 1974-75 and 76-77, Adams division title in 1985-86, Northeast division title in 1994-95)
• Original Jets (Avco Cup 1976/78/79, WHA division titles in 1972-73 and 1975-76)
• Whalers (Avco Cup 1973, WHA division titles in 1972-73/73-74/74-75, Adams division title in 1986-87)
• Thrashers (Southeast division title in 2006-07)

The Seals/Barons, Scouts/Rockies, and ATL Flames won nothing during their brief runs.

I think the following:

• WHA achievements should stay only on the former team's page. The Avalanche, Coyotes, and Hurricanes came long after the WHA, and they don't claim WHA successes. The WHA's constantly-changing division and conference setups also makes it a headache to clarify which is which.
• NHL achievements should be added, as that's one continuous franchise in one continuous league. For example, the 1994-95 Nordiques and 1995-96 Avalanche were functionally identical.

This would mean giving the Stars an extra conference title and two division titles, the Avalanche two extra division titles, and the Hurricanes/modern Jets an extra division title each. For precedence, other sports wikis do this; the Oklahoma City Thunder's page includes their achievements as the Seattle SuperSonics, as does the Minnesota Twins' page with their time as the Washington Senators, and the Tennessee Titans with their time as the Houston Oilers. The Kip 05:18, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Franchise and team are two different things so no. – sbaio 13:59, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

And I personally disagree with that. We’re the only North American sports wikiproject that treats it like so, and without a particularly good reason. The Kip 16:33, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

The "franchise versus team" topic has already been discussed twice in 2023 – Talk:List of Colorado Avalanche seasons#Merger Discussion (May 2023) and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Sports/Archive 12#Relocated professional sports teams (June 2023). There was also a discussion about it in February 2022 – Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (sports teams)#RfC regarding article titles of relocated professional sports teams in North America. Therefore, I am not going to repeat the same opinions given in those discussions so anyone interested can read them themselves. – sbaio 18:24, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Just wanted to be sure (or reminded), as I know the NHL, CFL, MLB, NFL & NBA, handle re-located teams differently. GoodDay (talk) 19:12, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, for no good reason either (still salty). I'm not gonna argue further, my mind is made. Conyo14 (talk) 23:10, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Junior hockey team season articles

2023-24 Kitchener Rangers season was recently created. Any thoughts on season articles for junior ice hockey teams? Flibirigit (talk) 18:10, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

I mean, why not? If they can somehow establish notability and use good sources (this one does not!!), it should be fine. – Poriman55 - Meddela mig! 20:35, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

As long as WP:NCIH is respected, for the OHL & WHL team season pages, then go for it. GoodDay (talk) 20:41, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

QMJHL name change

The Quebec Major Junior Hockey League has changed its name.[2] Anyone have time to play with this before well-meaning IP addresses make a mess of the article? Flibirigit (talk) 21:06, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

I'll try to take care of it. The Kip 21:31, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Category:Quebec Major Junior Hockey League and its contents will need corresponding name changes. Flibirigit (talk) 00:40, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

I think speedy renaming can be requested per WP:C2D. I'm not sure if there's a quicker way than manually tagging each sub-category with {{subst:cfr-speedy|New name}}. Wracking ^talk! 00:53, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

IIHF World Juniors lower division pages

Been looking at the Year pages for Divisions I, II & III tournaments of World Junior Ice Hockey. We need an RM for all of them or an administrative page move, as they're not consistent. GoodDay (talk) 00:21, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Issues with maps on Canadian junior league pages

Noticed this issue today when looking at some pages with the QMJHL's name change. It seems that the interactive maps on each page are bugged or partly broken, and can only show a maximum of 17 teams (which obviously becomes an issue when all three have 18+ teams). As it stands, I'm unable to view the following on each map:

• QMJHL: Saint John Sea Dogs

• OHL: Sarnia Sting, Sault Ste. Marie Greyhounds, Windsor Spitfires

• WHL: The entire US Division, except for the Wenatchee Wild

I tried to troubleshoot it, but it didn't seem to solve anything. Tried a different browser and different computer too, so I don't think it's just on my end. Anyone have an idea of how to fix it? The Kip 23:15, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Delete the maps. GoodDay (talk) 23:20, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

I lean towards agreeing with GoodDay here. I'm not sure how much encyclopedic value can be found in the maps. On another note– the maps are too large, probably violating the spirit of the law at MOS:IMGSIZE. Wracking ^talk! 23:35, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Or one can simply change the map to a regular, flat, non-interactive one. It'd take all of fifteen minutes to create a new one. Ravenswing 18:27, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

I’ll try to take care of that later. The Kip 20:36, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Patrick Emond

Should Patrick Emond be nominated for deletion? He never played in the NHL and the only awards he has are from the QMJHL. – sbaio 11:02, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

No, he passes GNG. Plenty of coverage in French-language newspapers in the Bibliothèque et Archives nationales du Québec, covering his prolific scoring in the QMJHL. He also had a lengthy coaching career in Europe, voted coach of the year with more coverage in European news. Flibirigit (talk) 14:08, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Not sure why. Playing in the NHL is not a requirement for notability under GNG or NHOCKEY. He has adequate coverage to meet GNG and also meets NHOCKEY criterion #2 as a top ten all time scorer in the QMJHL. In fact, although I didn't find an explicit reference, a little math (which some might object to as OR) shows that must have ended his junior eligibility as the #1 all time scorer in the QMJHL (in terms of points). Rlendog (talk) 21:45, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Changing quality rating for Porin Ässät (men's ice hockey)

Is it okay to change the article Porin Ässät (men's ice hockey) from a C-class to a B-class? Any objections? – Poriman55 - Meddela mig! 23:03, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

I'd say it's a touch light still for B, but I wouldn't object. (Never mind that any solid work on European hockey articles needs encouragement!) Ravenswing 18:26, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Any suggestions on what to improve/add/remove? I have worked on this for a while on my old (now lost) account and now this one. As English isn't my first language, could someone kindly point out any grammatical errors? – Poriman55 - Meddela mig! 19:09, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

There's not very much on the recent history (i.e., anything 1990s or later), so that could be a spot for expansion. The grammar looks pretty good overall. Wracking ^talk! 19:23, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

I can add something thats notable enough to mention. If we add anything more about the most recent history it's just gonna be "In the XXXX–XXXX SM-liiga season Ässät finished last in the league" about a billion times. The (almost) full history of the club is in a different article. – Poriman55 - Meddela mig! 19:35, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

I see that the article has a notice that it may not reflect the encyclopedic tone of wikipedia. What should I improve? – Poriman55 - Meddela mig! 08:03, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

• Alright, a few things. First off, take a good look at other "B" rated articles; you'll see that there's a great deal more text. This isn't a very large article at all if you pull tables, and perhaps some of what went into the History article can come back in here. (I also see that the corresponding article on the Finnish Wikipedia is huge.) The opening paragraph is long on supposition, and quite short on inline citations supporting the assertions. I did just strike that unencyclopedic tone tag: while the article has some deficiencies, that's not one of them. Ravenswing 11:38, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

  I tried to fix some of the things you mentioned. I expanded the history section and added sources. – Poriman55 - Meddela mig! 14:25, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Feedback on my edits to Jesse Puljujärvi

I added information on the page about Jesse Puljujärvi. Could someone review my edits and point out possible mistakes? Thank you! – Poriman55 - Meddela mig! 23:05, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Problematic user

Just a heads up that this user has engaged in a number of unhelpful behaviors as of late, including:

• Persistently shortening Alexander Ovechkin’s name to “Alex”

• Updating tables that are clearly marked as not to be updated until season’s end

• Persistently adding un- or poorly-sourced content at Alexander Ovechkin, leading to an edit war

• Attempting to add statistics, records, etc from the USSR/CIS national teams to the Russian national team page

• Adding copyvio images (which have thus far been speedy-deleted)

Anyone have any ideas of how to deal with them, beyond just reverting their edits? The Kip 21:26, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Yup, report the editor WP:ANI, as their behavior has gotten out of hand. PS - I suspect we might be dealing with an evading situation. GoodDay (talk) 21:32, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

The behaviour is similar to User:Max Arosev who is banned. Flibirigit (talk) 21:41, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

That's my hunch, too. GoodDay (talk) 21:43, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm actually not entirely sure it's him; looking through his original accounts' diffs, it seems he was hellbent on making sure Russian teams were not regarded as the successors of USSR/CIS teams, while this user is quite the opposite. He also seemed to have a much wider focus than just hockey (the Olympics as a whole, soccer, basketball and so on), and the above user's mostly-incoherent edit summaries don't line up with Max's wrong-but-clear ones.

For now, I'm not gonna report to ANI as the user's made just one edit in the last six days, so the problem may have solved itself; I also don't feel like we have enough for a sockpuppet investigation. The Kip 07:10, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

You are still welcome to report to ANI if the user persists with this. They already have several warnings about their behavior. Conyo14 (talk) 07:38, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Editor mistakenly added diacritics (in Oct 2023), across several NHL-related pages.

I'm gonna need some help undoing @Colonies Chris: edits, per WP:NCIH. They've added a lot of diacritics to names in non-player NHL pages, in October 2023. GoodDay (talk) 01:57, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

I've managed to undo the edits-in-question (per WP:NCIH) at 2000–01 NHL transactions, 1992–93 NHL transactions, 1993–94 NHL transactions, List of New Jersey Devils draft picks, Houston Aeros (1994–2013), 36th National Hockey League All-Star Game, 1979–80 Montreal Canadiens season, 1985–86 Hartford Whalers season, The 1982–83 to 1991–92 Montreal Canadiens season pages, the 1984 to 1987 Stanley Cup playoffs pages, 1986 Stanley Cup Finals. I may have missed others, not certain. GoodDay (talk) 04:55, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

NHL franchise records

Coming from this discussion – should pages at Template:NHL franchise records be protected? Because registered or IP editors are updating them during the season just like List of NHL players with 1,000 points and similar pages. – sbaio 09:35, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

All such templates & pages should be protected from these constant 'in season' updatings. GoodDay (talk) 15:38, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Personally, some NHL records clearly don't fall within the "do not update until end of season" so it's at the discretion of the potential reverter. Conyo14 (talk) 17:13, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

IIHF team's championship tables

Looking at some of the (mens/womens) seniors & juniors IIHF team pages, I noticed we mention the USSR in Russia's team pages' tournament results, the CSSR in Czechia & Slovakia's team pages' tournament results, etc. Should we be doing this? Including a brief mention of former national teams' results, in current national team's results? GoodDay (talk) 23:02, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Somewhere in the prose section, there should be mention that athlethes from national team "X" previously competed as part of national team "Y". The results/total wins should be separate. Flibirigit (talk) 23:07, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for History of the Ottawa Senators (1992–)

History of the Ottawa Senators (1992–) has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Hog Farm _Talk 02:51, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

IP address 104.157.207.107

104.157.207.107 Has made multiple reverts and deletions without providing any edit summary or discussing on talk pages. I have reached out multiple times to the user on its talk page with no result. Any thoughts here? Flibirigit (talk) 15:27, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Multiple edits made to Katherine Henderson (sports executive) have disconnected facts from their corresponding citations. Could someone please check, as I do not want to violate 3RR. Best wishes. Flibirigit (talk) 15:34, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Red Tilson Trophy / Hart Memorial Trophy

104.157.207.107 has repeatedly inserted a nationality column and corresponding flags at the Red Tilson Trophy. These are violation of MOS:FLAG, since flags should only be used when a person's nationality have direct relevance to the competition in question. A person's nationality has no bearing whatsoever on winning this trophy. Any thoughts here? Flibirigit (talk) 15:30, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Look at the Hart Trophy page.

There's a nationality column.

Why the difference in your mind?

None. You're being... 104.157.207.107 (talk) 15:35, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Go ahead and apply your thinking to the Hart Trophy page. I dare you. What's you're problem?!? 104.157.207.107 (talk) 15:36, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

With respect to the Hart Memorial Trophy, I fail to see why nationality applies there either. Are there any reliable source which state why nationality is important? Also, please avoid statements such as "I dare you" which are WP:UNCIVIL. Best wishes. Flibirigit (talk) 15:38, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Totally agreed with Flibirigit - nationalities (and especially flags) are unnecessary in the tables in Red Tilson Trophy and Hart Memorial Trophy............ PKT(alk) 16:51, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Remove'em. GoodDay (talk) 16:54, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

With zero mention of the players' nationalities in the Hart article, I see no reason for keeping that column in the table. I'm happy to nuke it unless the project has any objections? Echoedmyron (talk) 20:48, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

I was working on it while you made the above comment. Flibirigit (talk) 20:57, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

IP's been blocked for disruptive editing, for 31 hrs. GoodDay (talk) 18:49, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Creating an RfC on the diacritics rule

Hi all, I plan to create an RfC. If you have any WP:RFCBEFORE thoughts on the formulation of the question/options, please share at the subpage. Thanks and happy new year, Wracking ^talk! 21:22, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Is there something wrong with the status quo? Flibirigit (talk) 21:31, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

I am only looking for feedback on the formulation of the RfC. The issue has been discussed at length already, with several editors taking issue with the rule. Wracking ^talk! 21:36, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Your insistence on trying to abolish the compromise (at least the part you don't like), is only going to disrupt the peace that WP:HOCKEY has achieved in this area. I'm asking you, please drop this & move on to another topic. GoodDay (talk) 21:44, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Several editors taking issue with something is just a discussion, not a call for an RfC. Flibirigit (talk) 21:56, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree. It's not necessary for an RfC. No one has come in guns blazing for a call to change. The diacratics rule is fine as is. If anyone is truly passionate about changing it. Then they ought to discuss it here. Conyo14 (talk) 02:30, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

I could see if there's been serious debates about diacritics recently why an RFC could help but the issue has been very quiet for some time. Conyo14's right, if there are issues, let's get a conversation started here first. Masterhatch (talk) 03:14, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks everyone for the feedback.

For reference, the issue has been discussed in 2021 (also here a bit: 1, 2), in 2022, and most recently in 2023. I think the latest conversation got out of hand with extreme walls of text and some comments that verged on hostility and/or personal attacks.

I would love to have an open, policy- and content-based discussion on the issue; this is hard to do when questioning of the rule is criticized and shut down. While I understand that some long-time editors feel exhaustion/annoyance with the topic, times have changed. for example, the original compromise was made in 2007; per MOS:DIACRITICS, a 2012 RfC decided that wikiprojects could not implement their own diacritic rules.

I think this conversation should be given a legitimate chance. If we can do that without an RfC, great! Previous editors had mentioned the possibility of an RfC, but there has never actually been one, hence my desire to create one. I provide this background to reiterate that I'm trying to enter this conversation in good faith as a member of the project. Wracking ^talk! 03:59, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

So, it was November we had this discussion, and basically it was that COMMONNAME should be the rule we follow regarding diacratics. NHL constantly changes their rules, so we should base it off the secondary sources. If a majority of sources use diacratics for one player, then we can adjust the RFC sentence accordingly. However, the rule as is, works. Conyo14 (talk) 04:17, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

The challenge is that there are a lot of nuances in the context of the NHL and other North American hockey leagues. As I discussed in November, league usage has historically influenced common usage in the English media, creating anglicized versions of names that the players may not have personally adopted. Most people with Latin-script letters in their name other than the 26 used in English (or with modifiers) don't have daily press coverage following the lead of a single organization. With the greater emphasis placed on self-identity these days, it can be argued that more weight should be given on the orthography used by the subject in question, while also making note of other commonly used anglicizations. Personally I would prefer that the community reach a general consensus on how to weigh these considerations, so there no longer needs to be any ice hockey-specific guidance. isaacl (talk) 05:44, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

(outdent) I don't want to get bogged down in this discussion (again), but I will note that with the increasing prevalence of the NHL and secondary sources utilizing diacritics, and with the changing styles more generally per the MOS, I do think adjustments will need to be made. I don't anticipate commenting on this further though, but will say I'll go with whatever comes about. Kaiser matias (talk) 07:13, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

While of course diacritics are more in vogue both in certain sources, on team websites and on jerseys, I agree that we had this discussion a month ago, and this smacks of forum shopping: that some parties are just going to keep hammering and hammering on this until they get their way. This time next year, I'll look less unkindly about someone reopening a badly battered and overworked can of worms. Now, no. Ravenswing 01:29, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Alright, I won't be going forward with the RfC.

This rule isn't usually on my mind; I brought this discussion up because I saw WP:NCIH come up on my watchlist when GoodDay removed diacritics from List of Norwegian players selected in the NHL Entry Draft (diff). Many of these players never played in North America and therefore have very little English-language sourcing, so I thought it was a pointless edit that's not really based on sources or policy (like WP:COMMONNAME/WP:UE).

But really, I'm not trying to die on this hill. I thank everyone who took my comments in good faith and wish you peace in the new year. Best, Wracking ^talk! 21:42, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

I made my changes there, because it was an NHL(thus North America)-related page. GoodDay (talk) 22:07, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Honestly, I think you'd be mistaken there. NCIH rests on the premise of COMMONNAME. As Wracking correctly suggests, a player who's never played in North America, and where there is little English-language sourcing, would almost certainly have most sources reflecting applicable diacritics. Ravenswing 22:41, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't believe I'm mistaken. But, seeing as (at least) it's kinda split between North America/Non-North America? I won't object to my changes being reverted there. GoodDay (talk) 23:06, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Maple Leafs roster & a Draft of an expansion NHL team in Houston

Anybody know what @SpeakingConsequences: is trying to accomplish, at Template:Toronto Maple Leafs roster (concerning a Cody Taylor) & creating Draft:Houston Aeros (NHL)? -- GoodDay (talk) 23:46, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

The draft looks like a pretty clear-cut decline at AfC per WP:DEL-REASON #6. Any (actually verifiable) information can go at Potential National Hockey League expansion (which I now see SpeakingConsequences did edit...). As for what they're trying to accomplish... I'd just generally categorize it as vandalism and have warned them as such. Wracking ^talk! 00:16, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

I see that in their contrib history, that they tried to add a "Cody Taylor" to the 2023 NHL Entry Draft page & the Template:Philadelphia Flyers roster page. GoodDay (talk) 00:43, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Seems like obvious vandalism, especially considering the "refs" they're adding quite literally don't exist. Warn, then take to AIN/AIV if it persists. The Kip 03:29, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Elias Pettersson (born 2004)

I believed that the correct naming format from WP:NCIH (Biographies point #3) would be for him to be Elias Pettersson (ice hockey, born 2004). However it appears he was moved from that to the current. Was going to move it back, but thought I should get an opinion or two first since I almost never create biographical articles. Seems like if he does make the Canucks roster it would precisely mirror the example in NCIH.18abruce (talk) 22:21, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Normally I'd support going by the NCIH guidelines; however, this is a weirder case where Elias Pettersson is clearly the primary topic (without disambiguators) and the only two articles with the name are ice hockey players, in which case the "(ice hockey)" disambiguator feels redundant. It's not like Matt Murray, where there's both a slew of non-hockey Matt Murray-s and two ice hockey players, therefore necessitating both the "(ice hockey)" to differentiate from the others and birth year to differentiate from each other.

I won't be opposed to the proposed title should it be moved, but the current one seems adequate. The Kip 00:33, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Elias Pettersson (born 2004) fails Wikipedia:Naming conventions (sportspeople), where the primary qualifier is the sport. The birth year is also added because there is more than one ice hockey player. Flibirigit (talk) 00:42, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

This is a case where I feel other sports (e.g. WP:NCGRIDIRON) do it better and possibly give us room for improvement at NCIH. The real difference between Elias Pettersson and Elias Pettersson (ice hockey, born 2004) is that the latter is a defenceman. So, while not within the current NCIH guidelines, I think Elias Pettersson (defenceman) would be a better title. (Also, note that other sports do not also provide their sport name as a prefix to the position or birth year, likely per WP:CONCISE.) Wracking ^talk! 06:02, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

I would potentially disagree with this given players can change positions. Conyo14 (talk) 06:26, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

How often has that actually happened at the professional level, discounting centre and winger which can be categorized together as "forward"? (I actually don't know.) Given it's already a rare situation for two players to share the same exact name, I don't really see this as a major issue. Wracking ^talk! 16:30, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Failure to follow the naming conventions is the issue. Flibirigit (talk) 17:05, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm saying that how NCIH addresses disambiguation is not ideal, and that other sports (baseball, gridiron) do it differently (and better). Wracking ^talk! 17:15, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

If players happen to play distinguishing positions, what's the downside of disambiguating by position instead of birth year? But sure, if their positions overlap, birth year can be used. (That said, WP:NCBASKETBALL doesnt use position as a potential disambiguator) —Bagumba (talk) 17:31, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Players changing positions does happen (Wendel Clark and Mark Howe are a couple of more famous ones) and I believe it is much more common transitioning from junior to pro ranks. I can see the logic of what was done, but it appears strange to have specific cited direction in this case, with examples derived from the experience of users who are well invested in wiki, and do something else anyway.18abruce (talk) 19:42, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Brent Burns, Red Kelly, Dit Clapper... changing position is something that can happen. In comparison to the birth year (something a player cannot change), position changes happen more frequently between juniors and majors. Conyo14 (talk) 19:52, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

(ec)Red Kelly is probably an even more famous example, given that he starred at both positions. That said, it is rare so using defenceman as a disambiguator here does not seem like a bad idea (and if he does change positions we can always change the disambiguator), and consistent with NCIH #4. But otherwise I think the simple "born 2004" without "ice hockey" is fine. I don't think NCIH necessarily contemplated a disambiguation where there were only 2 people being diambiguated with the same name and both happened to be hockey players, and as a guideline NCIH is subject to occasional exceptions (in addition to IAR), which should apply here to avoid a redundant disambiguator. Rlendog (talk) 19:58, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

I personally loathe having birth years in DABs, but I doubt there is much support here for changing such a policy.-- Earl Andrew - talk -- Earl Andrew - talk 20:04, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

After expanding this article a bit, I was comparing versions and noticed that I was the person to remove "ice hockey" from the title... I completely forgot I did that and wasn't aware of the NCIH provisions at that time (though I disagree with the current naming scheme, I wouldn't be purposely disruptive like that). Wracking ^talk! 05:13, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Extreme incivility from a would-be contributor

Just a heads-up as myself and @GoodDay have unfortunately experienced - this user:

• Updated List of NHL players with 1,000 points multiple times, despite the several notes in all caps throughout the article stating to leave it until season's end.

• When warned about it by myself, left this response asserting that I'm lazy.

• Then left this fun little message when GoodDay responded to the above.

• Then vandalized the page.

He hasn't edited anything since, so the problem may have solved itself, but if he goes any further it'll go to ANI. The Kip 00:25, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Some editors might enjoy eating a bowl of dick. Flibirigit (talk) 00:44, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

The editor was certainly WP:NOTHERE & (we hope) won't be returning. GoodDay (talk) 00:47, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Infoboxes of NHL team season pages

Just a thought. Would it be acceptable to delete the alternate captains from the infoboxes of NHL team season pages? It would make them less cluttered & after all, we don't have assistant coaches, assistant general mangers or vice presidents included. GoodDay (talk) 17:37, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

• I’d be opposed simply because alternate captains have a much larger practical effect on teams, especially when no captain is named. It’d be solving a problem that doesn’t exist. The Kip 19:17, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

• MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE states "the purpose of an infobox: to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article". Sports infoboxes are already too bloated and cluttered. Less trivia is best. Flibirigit (talk) 19:21, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

• Per Flibirigit, alt captains clutter the infobox and less trivia is better. When there is no captain, it is simply none or similar. Conyo14 (talk) 19:25, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

• It can be difficult to piece together which players are alt captains from past seasons. There usually aren’t going to be sources stating so and so is an alt captain like there is for the captaincy. It usually comes down to guesswork. In the event a team doesn’t have a captain, perhaps a better place to note alternate captains would be in prose. --NHL04 (talk) 19:36, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

A good example of why we should delete, would be 2020–21 New Jersey Devils season's infobox. GoodDay (talk) 20:07, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

• That is an excellent example of how people who are well-intentioned but hypertechnical can make a mess. Alternate captain designations change fairly frequently due to injury, suspension, healthy scratch, whatever. While I can't cite a specific example off the top of my head, I can recall situations where a Capitals player has worn the "A" for a single game. Obviously the intent is that only the players who serve regularly in that role should be listed. But pretty much everything on Wikipedia turns into a battle with people who want to list every last possible scrap of trivia they can in the name of "accuracy." 1995hoo (talk) 20:44, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

• Generally, alternate captains should not be listed in infoboxes because they create clutter and because of the issues noted by GoodDay, NHL04, and 1995hoo. If the alternate captains are sourced (though it seems this isn't usually the case), the information should be put in the prose as that's where it belonged in the first place (and per WP:PRESERVE). If they're not sourced, I wouldn't object to removing them altogether due to (as NHL04 notes) the difficulty of sourcing these claims. If future editors want to add alternate captains to an article, it should sourced and in the main body. Wracking ^talk! 21:22, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

I can understand not listing temporary alternates, but if they’re formally announced by the team (i.e. those sourced at List of NHL captains), I really don’t see the need to removal beyond a simple desire for change. The Kip 21:49, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

• I do agree that alternate captains should be removed from individual team season infoboxes. However, I must note that this discussion was created after this discussion's creator "lost the argument" (ignoring what I wrote in edit summaries and on my talk page) after I initially reverted him at 2017–18 New Jersey Devils season (revert revision), 2019–20 New Jersey Devils season (revert revision) and 2020–21 New Jersey Devils season (revert revision). Therefore, this discussion looks like a WP:BADFAITH case. – sbaio 18:45, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

  Although yours' and GoodDay's discussion on the infoboxes are of the same origin, they do not discuss the issue at hand, whether alt captains should even exist. I would not call this WP:BADFAITH, it's a tad inciteful. Conyo14 (talk) 19:16, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

  I haven't disputed your implementation of WP:SMALLFONT & thus I haven't undone any of your edits, concerning the infoboxes-in-question. But, I appreciate that you're in agreement with 'deleting' the alternate captains from the infoboxes entirely. GoodDay (talk) 19:24, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Georgian national team relegation

Georgia was relegated after the 2023 WC IIA despite finishing in second, but none of the references on the related pages made mention of this. Does anyone have information as to why, or even just an article stating that it happened? I couldn't find anything except for the IIHF rankings and team listing for this year's IIB event. Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 21:25, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Checked over the 2023 IIHF World Championship Division II A tournament. Iceland should be the team that gets relegated. GoodDay (talk) 21:35, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

After googling, I can't seem to find any refs as to why, other than it simply happening - there was some speculation on the use of ineligible players, but I couldn't find anything concrete to that. The Kip 22:04, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

So, it looks to be something to do with the Russian players. I don't expect there to be an actual explanation considering that this is a second offense plus the IIHF has been super cautious about Russian athletes. If a fellow Georgian has a source on the matter, maybe they can help. Conyo14 (talk) 22:45, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

I have contacts at the Georgian federation actually, but they have not clarified the matter at all to anyone. However it is almost certainly due to ineligible players, seeing how nearly the entire team is made up of players with Russian names. But there is no source that can be used for this, in English or Georgian, at this time. Kaiser matias (talk) 00:14, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

I spent a ridiculous amount of time trying to figure this one out, it drives me crazy. It came up before (2016) where they added no explanation and did not change any of their official pdfs. Better than 2019 I guess where they disqualified Kyrgyzstan, discovered that they made a mistake, but the DQ results stayed.18abruce (talk) 17:30, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Website seemingly copying biographies directly from our articles - anything we can do?

Hello all,

During the GA review process at Logan Thompson, the reviewer noted that a portion of the biography that I wrote was seemingly identical to that at this website. After assuring the reviewer that I was the original author of said bio at the Wikipedia article, I did a little deeper digging and discovered that the same applies at this website’s pages for Brayden Pachal (here), Kaedan Korczak (here), and Jonas Røndbjerg (here). At all four, they’ve quite literally word for word copied what we’ve written, without attribution or credit; I assume they’ve done the same with many others.

Is there anything we can do, or is this effectively out of our control? The Kip 06:05, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Things that can be done:

• Discredit the website as a perennial source (we cite our sources, they obviously don't)
• Change the wording on the article
• Politely ask the website to stop copy-pasting from Wikipedia
• Politely ask the website to mention credit to Wikipedia

Hope this helps. Conyo14 (talk) 06:24, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

They need to attribute that text to Wikipedia. But that's all they need to do; the Creative Commons license allows ANY content on Wikipedia to be ganked, and we all agree to that with every edit we make. (Check the small print below.) The degree, mind, to which the WMF is inclined to go to war to enforce it in such situations is another matter. Ravenswing 12:19, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

On Wikipedia, you can note that WP is legit with {{Backwards copy}} on the talk page. —Bagumba (talk) 12:38, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

For the purposes of making this conversation easier to find in future archives: Online Sports Database (OSDB) is a WP:MIRROR of Wikipedia and cannot be considered a reliable source, nor should it be used as an external link.

I will try to add OSDB to the list of mirrors at WP:MIRROR. If anyone wants to make next steps as mentioned by Conyo14, please make sure to note them at WP:MIRROR to avoid duplication of efforts. Wracking ^talk! 00:03, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I added OSDB to Wikipedia:Mirrors and forks/MNO#Online Sports Database (OSDB). The Kip, you can follow the steps mentioned here if you'd like. Wracking ^talk! 00:22, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Much appreciated. The Kip 01:06, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:EUHL#Requested move 7 January 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:EUHL#Requested move 7 January 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 19:08, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:2024 PWHL season#Requested move 7 January 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:2024 PWHL season#Requested move 7 January 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 19:10, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Don Cherry

@AustinAuriat: has repeatedly contested that Cherry's comments were racist. I do not see any consensus in favor of removing that passage in the article. More participation at Talk:Don Cherry would be helpful in reaching consensus. Flibirigit (talk) 17:03, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Hey @Flibirigit what is this page? AustinAuriat (talk) 05:02, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

This is the talk page for Wikipedia:WikiProject Ice Hockey. Flibirigit (talk) 15:40, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Anything ice-hockey related that requires broader discussion comes here or is otherwise linked to the article talk page. Conyo14 (talk) 16:33, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Wow that’s pretty cool. AustinAuriat (talk) 18:20, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

@FlibirigitCan I join this? AustinAuriat (talk) 17:46, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Anyone is welcome to join the project. Please see Wikipedia:WikiProject Ice Hockey for the details. Flibirigit (talk) 19:31, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

I joined! Now what? AustinAuriat (talk) 01:02, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Welcome aboard. I hope you are not discouraged about Don Cherry, but he is a tricky subject with some contentious aspects of his work. Participate in any of the discussions, or edit any articles which interest you. Some editors prefer statistics, events, teams, players, or other biographies. We can suggest areas to work on if you mention some interests. Flibirigit (talk) 02:12, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

@AustinAuriat: I wanted to send a belated welcome to the project. Always nice to have more users interested in improving hockey articles. Kaiser matias (talk) 23:39, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

As I said on my talk page, I have decided to move on from Don. I’ll look around for interests AustinAuriat (talk) 02:32, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Sorry to be so stuck on the topic, I see your point, I will work on smaller topics AustinAuriat (talk) 02:33, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! I’m excited to work on this AustinAuriat (talk) 17:37, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Addition of alleged domestic violence and sexual assault incidents to biographies

Contributions by "Mywifileftme" have added alleged domestic violence and sexual assault incidents to several ice hockey biographies. See changes to Nikolay Zherdev, Mike Komisarek, Drew Doughty, Denis Potvin, and Mario Lemieux. Some of these appear undue due to their alleged nature, and tangential connection to the subjects. Any thoughts? Flibirigit (talk) 18:09, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

This goes beyond hockey. The essay WP:CONTROVERSIALFACT provides some clarity on this type of content. I am not opposed to these items being there especially as they have a reliable source, but higher quantity of reliable sources can trump the one. Conyo14 (talk) 19:13, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Hi, I happened to see this after being tagged in another thread above, but I would just like to agree that the inclusion of domestic and sexual violence (even alleged) is important, especially on the pages of well-known or bigger names. I do agree that it needs to be well-sourced and well-cited. LuluVohn (talk) 18:00, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

As for WP:DUE, a separate section header (especially with a title like History of Alleged Sexual Assault Apologism) is a pretty blatant issue of due weight and WP:NPOV in general. Except for the most notable cases, a separate section heading is probably unnecessary. (see also WP:CSECTION)

I can look through these additions and trim and copy edit to better conform with both NPOV, WP:BLP, and WP:BLPCRIME. (Through my GOCE work, I have a quite a bit of experience trimming NPOV text and weaving controversial statements into articles in a more neutral way.)

I can work on these and share diffs of my edits. Wracking ^talk! 20:06, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

• Mario Lemieux – diff (general cleanup is needed in the personal life section)
• Denis Potvin – diff (I actually made this section longer to accommodate details, and added another source)
• Drew Doughty – diff (though a short incident, this was pretty widely covered; the personal life section needs expansion, but that can be said for many hockey articles)
• Mike Komisarek – diff (removed, see edit summary)
• Nikolay Zherdev – diff (I undid Flibirigit's removal of this addition; they cited WP:RS, but the post seems to be mostly a translation of an MK article, which seems reliable enough. Moreover, the Yahoo Sports writer Dmitry Chesnokov was a member of the PHWA and pretty well-established in English-language coverage of hockey in Russia (that's to say, not just some rando))

Also, I've notified Mywifileftme of this discussion. Let me know if you have any questions or concerns about my edits. Best, Wracking ^talk! 21:27, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Just a note that they’ve continued the additions, including an unreferenced one on Jon Merrill. More cleanup may be needed; I don’t have time to do full restructuring atm, but I’ve undone their edit to Jake Virtanen as it cites a Reddit post, which is certainly not an RS.The Kip 08:08, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Village Pump RfC, of interest

Concerning NHL Draft etc. This Village Pump RFC may be of interest, to this WikiProject. GoodDay (talk) 19:08, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

World Juniors Ice Hockey Championship pages

I think we have a slight inconsistency in the 2023 edition where there seems to be two pages. One for the 'top division' & one for 'all the divisions'. Perhaps it's an inconsistency across the board, some years have one page, while others have two. I don't have the expertise on fixing this, sadly. GoodDay (talk) 17:27, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Please provide links to the pages you want to discuss. It makes life easier for others to help you. Flibirigit (talk) 17:29, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

I think an editor had big plans to expand the pages to mirror the senior men's and women's but got stopped. I personally don't think making more pages is wise since I think the lower tiers have a tenuous hold on notability but I generally try to just do what I do and move on.18abruce (talk) 17:34, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

The two 2023 pages are 2023 World Junior Ice Hockey Championships & 2023 IIHF World Junior Championship. Also, kinda related to this, how do we describe the status of the 2024 World Junior Ice Hockey Championships? The 2024 tournament's top division has concluded play, but not its Division II B & Division III (which both have yet to commence). GoodDay (talk) 17:45, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

For 2024, each of the tiers has their own page so calling 2024 championships concluded is not a big deal, people can read further if they are interested I think. Either way, I am not going to argue it so do what you think is best.18abruce (talk) 18:02, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Combining or splitting pages, isn't a talent I have. Among the IIHF tournaments, the creation of separate pages for the top division, began with the last roughly two decades of the Ice Hockey World Championship tournaments. Anyways, just making this WikiProject aware of the inconsistency now brought to the Juniors year tournaments. GoodDay (talk) 18:14, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

I've put in a technical page move request for both 2023 pages. Later, I'll recommend deletion for one of them. GoodDay (talk) 16:34, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Resolved - Both 2023 pages have been re-merged under the 2023 World Junior Ice Hockey Championships title :) GoodDay (talk) 05:54, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for taking care of them.18abruce (talk) 21:14, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Anaheim Ducks

Alright, we know that Fowler & Henrique are alternate captains, but who's the other alternate captain? Terry or Silfverberg. I'm asking, because an IP (who regularly edits the Ducks related pages, as well as their affiliates) keeps changing it in the infobox (and template roster) from Terry to Silfverberg. BTW - add these types of 'disputes', as reasons why we should delete the 'alternate captains' from NHL team season infoboxes. PS - I don't think the IP is aware, when they're contacted or their changes are reverted, as they seem to not engage in communicating. GoodDay (talk) 05:26, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

EliteProspects has it as rotating between the aforementioned two + Terry and Mason MacTavish. The Kip 06:07, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

It's getting confusing. Starting this season (or last season) the NHL teams' official websites 'stopped' putting the "C" & the "A"s on their rosters. GoodDay (talk) 06:13, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

It looks like the Ducks do not have any permanent alternate captains. Their 2023–24 media guide says 2022–23 – None (captain) – Rotating alternates (captains) So I believe it is the same this year. – sbaio 14:47, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm not going to dwell on this, but the IP claims they don't want to post 'here', because their english isn't good. Their english posts at their talkpage, seem quite accurate to me. I'm getting a sense of mere refusal to communicate (out side their talkpage, at least). They seem to be exclusively (see Mobile & other IPs) interested in the Ducks & the Ducks' affiliations. GoodDay (talk) 20:26, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Player positions... again

This was last discussed in October 2023. There was a compromise reached, which seemed to satisfy Tylerboyd17 (talk · contribs) for some time. However, it appears that Tylerboyd17 has since that discussion changed its mind regarding compromise and has been editing, while logged out (at least three different IP ranges that I am aware of – #1, #2, #3). What would be the next step in ending this disruptive behavior due to WP:IPHOPping? – sbaio 14:28, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

1) Warn the IPs of their behavior via their talk pages and copy the warning to User:Tylerboyd17.

2) Reverse the edits with the discussion link as the edit summary

3) Take it to ANI if they continue. A range block of 48–72 hours may fix their behavior.

Hope this might help. Conyo14 (talk) 16:46, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

All three options, should be taken. GoodDay (talk) 16:47, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I hope my "options" were actually taken as steps haha. Conyo14 (talk) 17:25, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Tylerboyd17 is being dishonest in their edit-warring (i.e logged out) & they have to go. GoodDay (talk) 17:27, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Which is something beyond our scope. This is in ANI's wheelhouse. Ravenswing 22:33, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I haven’t been logged in a while. Been busy with school. I do not know what is going on, but it isn’t me. I’ve since retracted a lot of what I said, even if though in a sense I was correct, but then again, so was sbaio. If you’ve noticed, I was the one who edited a lot of positions that weren’t previously edited. Jonathan Huberdeau, Jordan Kyrou, Mike Hoffman, Quinten Byfeild, etc. Adding centre to their positions because of what nhl.com says. I’m not the only Tylerboyd17 (talk) 03:33, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't really believe that because you've edited with IP#3 recently, then with IP#2 in December. IP#1 acts as a proxy and doesn't show any wrongdoing, really IP#3 is the most recent and egregious one. It is also the one we know is attached to your account. So, if sbaio chooses to go through with the steps, you'll have the chance to accept the consequences, but otherwise I'd suggest you consider keeping your account active on all devices. IP-hopping is means for ruin, same with socking. Conyo14 (talk) 06:27, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Believe what you want. I have a brother who also does edits, but does not have an account. He is aware of the position change drama between me and sbaio that took place months ago because he would sit next to me while I’m on my laptop. He thought it was funny and stupid. I know that’s not believable, but I have not been active enough to do anything. In a sense, we were both correct, but sbaio was more correct in the end. I can admit my wrong doing and take responsibility. I’ll even accept the consequences of this situation if it means keeping the peace, and everyone can be happy. Just came on because I wanted to edit Michael McLeod’s page on the fact that he has been insane in the faceoff circle, but does not get talked about. Saw I had notifications. Tylerboyd17 (talk) 17:01, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

And yet another IP from the same range comes to Jordan Kyrou's page and just continues with WP:OR that Tylerboyd17 has been doing (when NHL lists completely the opposite). It is impossible for a random IP to come and edit same pages and exactly same field. A compromise was reached that we list a generic position (Forward) if, for example, NHL lists C and Elite Prospects lists C/RW. I do not have time to go with ANI at this time, but this is getting ridiculous and you should just stop and respect the compromise. – sbaio 17:13, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Okay. I’m currently at school hence why the different IP (my brother goes here too). I have since respected our compromise, and I hope my recent edit regarding Michael McLeod was accurate, and not violating anything. BTW, you should know NHL is not accurate with positions either. I’m just being honest. They do not always update the players position, and it’s not uncommon for players to switch positions upon turning pro. I also watch a lot of hockey, but that is not a good way of editing pages. Huberdeau for example was only listed as a left winger before me or you came across his page. I apologize for any this ridiculous drama, and I understand if you’re not patient to hear anything I have to say rn. I’ll talk with my brother. Tylerboyd17 (talk) 17:27, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

I am guessing this is a matter of shared devices being misused under the same household. We should probably consider blocking the IP range, which will likely block Tylerboyd17 on the IP range devices, but he can use his account on other devices. Conyo14 (talk) 17:32, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

I understand. If it means this will stop, I will support that. I apologize for this whole mess. I didn’t think this would happen. My brother confirmed he was the one with me because he loves drama (pathetic, I know). This was ridiculous, and I’ll accept the consequences. Tylerboyd17 (talk) 17:36, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

My brother? Anyways, IMHO, this should go to SPI. But in the meantime, stick to one registered account, please. GoodDay (talk) 20:14, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

PWHL, diacritics & related non-bio pages

Should Professional Women's Hockey League & its related non-player pages, adhere to 'no diacritics' per WP:NCIH? After all it's a North American league not entirely within Quebec. GoodDay (talk) 01:48, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Note - I've hidden/removed diacritics from the league, the league season page, the team pages, the draft pages, the team season pages. GoodDay (talk) 02:38, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

FWIW - Looks like they're being used in the PHF, NWHL, WWHL, CWHL & related pages to those leagues. I'm suspecting the same, with the women's minor leagues. GoodDay (talk) 02:59, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps a simplistic interpretation on my part, but I don’t see why the PWHL has a particular reason to be exempted from NCIH. The Kip 04:03, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

I've been reverted at one of the PWHL team pages, with an explanation that I had applied NCIH incorrectly. GoodDay (talk) 04:13, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

If the league is using diacritics, then we should be using them here as well. Otherwise, it's original research.-- Earl Andrew - talk 14:57, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

This is English Wikipedia though. Not Swedish, Finnish, Slovakian etc Wikipedia. GoodDay (talk) 15:05, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Irrelevant. If the league and most sources are using diacritics, it's original research to be making up new ways of spelling their names, and it also goes against WP:COMMONNAME.-- Earl Andrew - talk 14:45, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Per WP:NCIH: "All North American hockey pages should have names without diacritics, except where their use is likewise customary (specifically, in the Quebec Major Junior Hockey League and the Ligue Nord-Américaine de Hockey)." Pretty simple guideline. I don't see an RfC changing this rule in favor of one league. Conyo14 (talk) 15:48, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Given that the PWHL is a brand-new league, and thus free of the baggage of past typography limitations, we should examine how it uses modified letters. Its web site, including its news releases, uses them freely, as far as I can see. isaacl (talk) 18:24, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. If the PWHL is using diacritics on uniforms, in their press materials and on their websites, that seems like a done deal. Ravenswing 00:23, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Agree with this perspective. My interpretation has always been that "where their use is likewise customary" encompasses leagues in which the use of diacritics is standard, rather than being limited to geographic regions. As GoodDay noted, this has been the operating standard for women’s leagues in North America (and abroad) for some time. This topic was also discussed at Talk:2024 PWHL season. @MikeVitale, 18abruce, Wheatzilopochtli, Other justin, and LuluVohn: your input on this topic would be most appreciated. Spitzmauskc (talk) 18:59, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

I am in favor of diacritics for the PWHL, as they are used on the official website [3] and on jerseys [4]

It seems to me that use of diacritics is becoming the standard in the NHL as well, and WP:NCIH may be due for an update. Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 19:09, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

I am also in favor of using diacritics on player names (and wherever else may be customary.) They’re used all over the website, on the official statistics website, in press releases, etc. I see no reason that we should not be following suit. —MikeVitale 01:33, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm in favour too—if the league is using them, I don't see why not. Other justin (talk) 01:29, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm also in favor. LuluVohn (talk) 17:44, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm in favor of the use of diacritics since the uniforms, the website, and press materials appear to use them. Should include team names as well.18abruce (talk) 00:12, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Well, if that's how it is in the PWHL, then so be it. I don't support using diacritics in their pages, but I won't go against apparent consensus here, to show them. GoodDay (talk) 00:48, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

It looks like it's common usage for the league. Though I expect the domino effect to topple to the NHL soon. Conyo14 (talk) 00:50, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Hillary Witt#Requested move 11 January 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Hillary Witt#Requested move 11 January 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 07:57, 11 January 2024 (UTC)