User talk:No Swan So Fine/Archive 4

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• EdwardsBot (talk) 18:17, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Category:American women novelists

In the discussion of Category:American women novelists you wrote "it appals me that there are less Wikipedia articles on women poets than pornographic actresses, a depressing statistic that can never inspire young women." I am 90% sure that that was not the case even at that point. As of now there are more contents in Category:American women poets than Category:American female pornographic film actresses, and I am not even half-way through the alphabet and have probably missed a few people along the way, since I was going for fast categorization and so missed people who did not have clearly female names and skipped over those using initials.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:34, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

This was one of those unfortunate statistics that was picked up and parroted by the media. At the time it was said, it wasn't true for the entire tree (e.g. all women poets vs all porn stars - there were I think ~1200 poets vs ~1000 porn star bios), and in the American tree there were I think 650 American porn stars and 450 American women poets - but, as JPL has pointed out, many of them were not yet classified in that category, so once we're done going through Category:American poets we will have a lot more poets than porn stars even in the American tree - the articles were already here. Of course, the comparison was problematic in the first place - why not compare porn stars to scientists, or journalists (many thousands), or women writers (~10,000) - heck, we even have 2600 Category:Feminists today.

In any case, I mainly came here to ask, what do you think should be done next? How do we address this ghettoization problem? There's a big debate over at Category_Talk:American novelists, but no-one as far as I can tell is taking the rest of the mess seriously. What should be done? --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 07:35, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

• Lambert - It's unfortunate that you have taken a lot of the heat for this. I did an enormous amount of categorising at the same time that you did, and I felt the statistic was true at the time, as we have become more adept it certainly isn't now.
• Obi Wan - I could have used a comparison with a similarly intellectually stimulating category, but it wouldn't have expressed the sadness I feel sometimes at the male oriented nature of our project. The fact does remain that the study of women's literature is a legitimate academic pursuit, not one born out of malice or ghettoisation, the categories intended to reflect that, but instead begat all of this. Other people though are better at arguing what I feel than I am. I am broadly in favour of a more imaginative way of constructing cats, maybe one involving intersects. It's impossible to navigate a 4k strong category. I would like to see everybody in the parent cat, as well as in the by century, genre etc. And as for women, I cannot say. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 14:15, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi Gareth - I agree that study of women's lit is a legitimate pursuit - I don't think anyone is questioning that! - and I don't think anyone questions your motivations in creating these categories - it was simply a misapplication of the rules around non-diffusing categories that caused the brouhaha. But it's mostly over now - I've noticed that people are sort of sliding back to their regular practices. I don't see people lighting torches and storming the castle of ghettoization - just a few lone souls trying to fix small parts of the wiki. I'm really sad to see that WMF hasn't put any resources behind this - I mean, the whole PROJECT was smeared for a week in the press b/c of a simple categorization issue, that is also fixable! - but WMF has been mum on the matter. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:46, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

We should be lighting those torches! Everything I touched on in the initial debate holds...WMF should have taken this and shown the WORLD our recent collaboration for women's science as well as the excellent pages we already hold on women writers. Its times like this I feel that we are just at the start of the project twelve years in! All the rest awaits, this should serve as a bitter example of the twattish tendencies the rest of the world ascribes to us. Individual writers are never held up by the mainstream media despite their 10k's page views evr'y week. The community is always punished as one. Anyway, let's fix it for free :) Gareth E Kegg (talk) 19:02, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

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Category:English women essayists

Category:English women essayists, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 01:53, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Fashion sources

I'm not really Mr. Fashion (just seeing me in person would confirm that), although I sympathize with you that it is very difficult to find sources for bios of fashion designers no longer alive. I think you're going to have to go to an actual library, probably one with either a good holding of old fashion magazines or (better yet) one devoted to fashion.

Since you're in the UK, you might try asking User:Johnbod, who might know where you could go.

Another possibility: try Google Books in foreign languages, particularly (in this case) Spanish, but also French, German and Italian. If you don't speak or read them, there are certainly those of us who can translate. Daniel Case (talk) 14:30, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Blue plaques categories

Hi Gareth E Kegg -- I've suggested that the categories for the Blue plaques would be much better handled and sorted and usable if they were made into lists. The category system is fairly limited in functionality (no sorting or ordering or notes, for instance, and hard to police accidental or malicious inclusion & exclusion from the categories). Lists on the other hand could better explain the complexity of the different Blue plaque systems over time to each other. AND, because we typically do not categorize people by award or association, it would be better under the overcategorization guidelines as well. You're welcome to weigh in on the CFD discussion. References: WP:OCAT, especially WP:OCAT#Award and WP:OCAT#Associated and WP:OCAT#Defining. --Lquilter (talk) 16:43, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

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The Tower House

Great to see this article being expanded. And you're right, the photos in The Great Houses of London are superb. Not sure about the final sentence of the lead however. I'm almost certain Chevithorne Vicarage remains a private house that isn't open - it was sold in 2012 - and Milton Court is a company headquarters, although I think you can gain access by written application. Also, Park House is a private club, although access can be gained fairly easily. Lastly, Treverbyn Vean, which was run as a hotel, is, I believe, a private home again. Should we amend the sentence to something like "One of the few buildings by Burges which are not open to the public"? Best regards. KJP1 (talk) 09:02, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Certainly. Where did you access the Country Life's that you cite in the main Burges article? I fear I'm running out of sources, I've just ordered the second volume of Bejtman's letters, will hopefully shed light on it's neglected period. This gentleman's ext photos of Tower House are supreme, how should I approach him for commons? [1] and finally...I bet you haven't seen this before! [2] Gareth E Kegg (talk) 11:23, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

The Flikr photos are fantastic, and he's obviously a fan. Know nothing about the site, can one just ask? I'll amend the lead if you haven't done so already. Sources are hard - The House of WB, and The Architectural Designs of WB by Pullan are two of my most sought items but very rare and expensive. The CL articles were sourced by others. Lastly, the Liberace photo is absolutely priceless! KJP1 (talk) 11:43, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

I think these must be the books you seek...I'll request them when I'm next free. [3] Please amend the lead! I've looked at it too much to be effective. Incidentally, do you prefer "the Tower House", "The Tower House" or "Tower House"? I have used all three liberally throughout, and want conformity. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 13:22, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, excellent work, would be good to get it up to at least GA!♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 16:37, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

[[4]] Got 45K spare? KJP1 (talk) 15:00, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

[[5]] The Queen appears to have a copy. I'm sure she wouldn't mind. I bet she hasn't read it for ages. KJP1 (talk) 15:04, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

2013 Woolwich attack

Good work. I did look for one earlier actually, but there was nothing under the search terms I used (2013 London machete attack, London machete attack, etc). Hopefully a few people will add it to their watchlists, and no doubt we'll have to argue for it at AFD at some point, but I think it's already passed WP:GNG. The involvement of the prime minister and its status as a terrorist incident put it above the usual murder case. Paul MacDermott (talk) 19:59, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

My thoughts exactly. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 20:01, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

No sissues with pthus, my reasoning though was alphabetiacal so not to biased ;)(Lihaas (talk) 22:16, 22 May 2013 (UTC)).

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• EdwardsBot (talk) 07:37, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Up the Women

Hey. Just wanted to let you know that I've nominated the article for DYK here: Template:Did you know nominations/Up the Women. Please feel free to add or change anything. - JuneGloom Talk 00:25, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Wow, thanks. I do wish I could say how stonkingly funny it was. NPOV alert! Gareth E Kegg (talk) 00:27, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Category:Simon & Garfunkel tribute albums

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• EdwardsBot (talk) 22:36, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Re: Baron (photographer)

Thanks for your kind comment, which I feel is undeserved. When I began the article I didn't even know Baron's real name, which hampered searching for references as you can imagine. If you know any more information about Baron's life, I'd be very happy to see it added to the article, particularly anything about his personal life or the manner of his early death.

As to your request for references for Marcus Adams, I can only suggest one thing. When I was reading the site devoted to Marilyn Monroe I was impressed with the amount of information it had about Baron, given that I'd tried unsuccessfully to use Google to find as much as that (and of course, there wasn't a Wikipedia entry, since that's what I was creating!) It then occurred to me that maybe that author had used a traditional source such as The Dictionary of National Biography. So it might be worth a visit to the library.

Thanks again for your appreciation! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Silas Maxfield (talk • contribs) 17:24, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Repton Abbey

Thank you for your review and kind words.

Your comment about illustrations made me chuckle though... I didn't think the images were that good -I've found trying to find any images at all extremely frustrating. The one in the crypt is the only one of the Abbey I can find and is hardly the best quality. I'd hoped to find a ground plan or a drawing of what it used to look like- but nothing.

I'm grateful for your kind words never the less.

Thanks --Rushton2010 (talk) 17:30, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

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Ballet bash

And a pleasure to meet you, too! Always nice to have a face to put to a name. I thought yesterday's event was a great success, and I expect it to bear much fruit. Tim riley (talk) 18:43, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

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Re: 1988–94 British broadcasting voice restrictions

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DYK nomination of L.S. Alexander Gumby

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Template:Did you know nominations/Sophie Fedorovitch

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Pre-Raphaelites

Thanks! - PKM (talk) 22:59, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Sahar Gul

What an awful story. And only one of so many too many. What a world. Awien (talk) 01:00, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure it's not caring as much as feeling helpless, and so tuning out. Best, Awien (talk) 11:37, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

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Editing Jack Warner article

I'm sort of new to Wikipedia, so please bear with me. There was some information on the Jack Warner article that needed updating and I did so without deleting anything from the original. However, I am at a loss as to how to do this as well with the transclusion. I would very much appreciate if you would be able to do this for me, thank you very much.

Sophiebibi (talk) 13:22, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, your edits were great. I've fixed the references. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 21:27, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

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Cardiff Castle

Glad you enjoyed it. It is amazing, although I've taken people who just came away with a blinding headache! Was the roof garden open? That's also stunning. And Lord Bute's bedroom. I find the small rooms more impressive than the large - they really are architectural jewel boxes. Oh, for the day we could tour the Tower House. All the best. KJP1 (talk) 18:08, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

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An Invite to join WikiProject Kelly Clarkson

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Pakenham ladies

Hi, Gareth, and thank you for your note. I'd be delighted to leave it to you to nominate Pansy Lamb at DYK. I'm not sure whether the Betjeman poem (which must be still in copyright) could be quoted on the main page, but I thought of "...that Betjeman wrote of "beauty to me came a-pushing a pram / In the shape of the sweet Pansy Felicia Lamb"? There must be several possible hooks, please do what you will with it. Moonraker (talk) 22:10, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Aha, the penny has now dropped that Mary Clive is also new. Yes, it would be a pity not to put them together. Moonraker (talk) 22:22, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

NB, the source says "few friends", rather than "no friends". Moonraker (talk) 00:38, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, I've amended it. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 17:59, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

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Peer review

Greetings! Your range of interests is so broad that I feel moderately confident of being able to persuade you to look in at the peer review of Benjamin Disraeli. Wehwalt and I have been working on it with FAC in our sights and if you can find time and inclination to look in and offer comments, quibbles, and suggestions for improvement we shall be very glad to see you. Quite understand if you can't fit it in, of course, but fingers crossed. Regards. Tim riley (talk) 11:12, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

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Brevan Howard - conflict of interest edits

Hi Gareth! I'm getting in touch because I see you recently made a change to the Brevan Howard Wikipedia entry.

The Wikipedia page has been left as a stub for a number of years, and so I've been asked by Brevan Howard to populate it with some information on the company, specifically what it does, rather than leaving it empty. Because I have a conflict of interest in this matter, I'm hoping to get your feedback and maybe your agreement to update it with my new version, which can be found here.

I've spent a lot of time over the last few weeks identifying reliable sources writing about the company and putting the information together, which is all factual, so I would be grateful if you could take a look and let me know what you think. If you agree that my draft is better than what's currently there, I'd ask if you could apply the changes and we can gain consensus from the community on specific adjustments later.

I'll check back on my talk page (or my draft's talk page) for your comments. DanJay000 (talk) 10:19, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

4 Cheyne Walk

Gareth, after I created it and checked to see what links there, I noticed that 4 Cheyne Walk is on your futureness list. You're more than welcome to add to it - maybe we can go for a DYK together... Edwardx (talk) 17:04, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Brilliant idea. The whole of Chenye Walk is also ripe for expansion...I'll consult my topological vademecums. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 13:51, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

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DYK nomination of Picasso's Regjeringskvartalet murals

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Template:Did you know nominations/Mary Clive

I've suggested a rewording of the hook for the DYK nomination, Template:Did you know nominations/Mary Clive. Is it okay? If so I think the nomination will be good-to-go. Sionk (talk) 20:04, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

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Better source request for File:Dizzycoolworld.jpg

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Funeral biscuits

I wasn't expecting the blue link that suddenly popped up chez Dorothy Hartley. Your range of topics continues to impress mightily! Tim riley (talk) 17:56, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Thankee, it was just as much of a pleasure to read about Ms Hartley. I hope to free more English folk things from their undue obnubilation :) Gareth E Kegg (talk) 18:02, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Kadir Nurman

Gareth After reading about Kadir Nurman on BBC Online, I thought that it could be an amusing little article. You beat me to it - well done! Edward Edwardx (talk) 18:21, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

I can't write now, my keyboard is suffused with chilli sauce and chips, eaten as part of a fatty memento mori.Gareth E Kegg (talk) 18:29, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

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Books and Bytes: The Wikipedia Library Newsletter

Books and Bytes

Volume 1, Issue 1, October 2013

by The Interior (talk · contribs), Ocaasi (talk · contribs)

Greetings Wikipedia Library members! Welcome to the inaugural edition of Books and Bytes, TWL’s monthly newsletter. We're sending you the first edition of this opt-in newsletter, because you signed up, or applied for a free research account: HighBeam, Credo, Questia, JSTOR, or Cochrane. To receive future updates of Books and Bytes, please add your name to the subscriber's list. There's lots of news this month for the Wikipedia Library, including new accounts, upcoming events, and new ways to get involved...

New positions: Sign up to be a Wikipedia Visiting Scholar, or a Volunteer Wikipedia Librarian

Wikipedia Loves Libraries: Off to a roaring start this fall in the United States: 29 events are planned or have been hosted.

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News from the library world: Wikipedian joins the National Archives full time; the Getty Museum releases 4,500 images; CERN goes CC-BY

Announcing WikiProject Open: WikiProject Open kicked off in October, with several brainstorming and co-working sessions

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Template:Did you know nominations/DNA (term)

Hi, I was scrolling through the DYK noms and noticed your comment at Template:Did you know nominations/DNA (term). If your intention was to approve the nomination, you need to use the tick symbol – {{subst:DYKtick}} – so the people promoting the hooks know that you've reviewed it, and weren't just commenting on the article. Thanks. DoctorKubla (talk) 16:24, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

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Better source request for File:Dizzycoolworld.jpg

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4 Cheyne Walk Suggestion

I'm expanding 4 Cheyne Walk, if you'd like to help. The DYK idea would be to mention all the famous people who have lived there. Edwardx (talk) 16:02, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

2013 Glasgow helicopter crash

Thanks for your assistance pulling the start of this page together --_nonsense ferret 23:56, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

London houses

Checked out all of the entries in your list. For me, the most promising are the last three (Jencks House, Malplaquet House and Heath Hall), all of which are definitely notable and should be DYK-able and interesting to research. By Jencks Huse, I assume you mean 19 Lansdowne Walk, Holland Park W11. Edwardx (talk) 11:37, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Malplaquet House started - plenty still to be done... Edwardx (talk) 15:28, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

I started 22 Parkside today. Much to be done! Gareth E Kegg (talk) 16:13, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for Malplaquet editing. I'll look at Parkside. And I've just started Swan House (Chelsea Embankment)‎ and Garden Corner, both of which I photographed in September. Who knows what we might uncover? Edwardx (talk) 16:32, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Wow...Swan House at AFC. Amazing deep referencing. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 23:43, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Don't know how I missed that - more haste, less speed, I suspect. That really is great work, and I don't understand why that editor is bothering to go through the AfC process with its lengthy backlog and delays. I've also posted on their talk page. Edwardx (talk) 10:31, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for improving 49 Belgrave Square. I started West House (Chelsea) yesterday. These old houses provide fascinating and pleasurable editing. Edwardx (talk) 10:52, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Excellent work, yes I quite agree, lots of demolished houses to create across England too. Remember if they're country houses to add to List of country houses in the United Kingdom. If you're interested there's a big list here of demolished country houses which needs inserting into the list and where possible starting the articles on them. Gareth you like jazz don't you? How cool was Count Basie! He kind of looked like I'd imagine a 70 year old Hendrix to look like. I can't watch him without thinking "you dawg" LOL see 1:10. [6] Must create some more of those jazz standards sometime.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:13, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Thankee, I can only imagine that that list of demolished country houses was created by a demon, such is its scope. Truly astonishing. A brutal linear counterpart to the writings of John Harris [7]. As is Michael Brecker's solo at 1:20 on this, a jewel from the Hippest Man of All Time. [8] Gareth E Kegg (talk) 00:44, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

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Thanks for the message

Hi Gareth. Great to meet you. I see you have created a number of articles on Monaco. Is that where you go on your holidays? Best wishes. Dudley Miles (talk) 13:26, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

I only holiday in Worthing these days, with an elderly aunt, and a retinue of parvenus. I've found so much scope on historic gardens in the South of France recently, Les Colombières is a fine example. User:NinaGreen is an amazing historian, I'm sure you know her work. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 13:46, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

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DYK nomination of Saying Grace (painting)

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December 2013

Please do not add unreferenced or poorly referenced information, especially if controversial, to articles or any other page on Wikipedia about living persons. Thank you.--John (talk) 06:25, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

John, you know that isn't the case. I'm sure you read my edit summaries. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 08:36, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

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Better source request for File:Dizzycoolworld.jpg

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DYK nomination of Moten Swing

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Better source request for File:Dizzycoolworld.jpg

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• EdwardsBot (talk) 06:19, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

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Iraq Historic Allegations Team

It was no problem at all to do the editing though I am new to Wikipedia and so I'm not fast and may do things clumsily. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RMcQuilliam (talk • contribs) 10:16, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

DYK for West House (Chelsea)

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 08:03, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Mawson Arms

I understand your thinking that Grade II* listing by itself makes a place notable. However, it has been established that is not the case as there are numerous buildings which are so listed, some of them are merely lamp posts or bollards. What is required are reliable sources which talk in depth (not in passing or merely listing) about a place. Pub or restaurant reviews are not regarded as sufficient, unless the review is in a reliable publication, and indicates that the pub is notable for some reason other than serving good food or beer. Significant awards, historical events, notable owners, are among the reason why pubs have been regarded as notable. As you do feel that more can be said about the pub, I'll wait a few days to allow you to search sources to see if notability can be found. Regards. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 13:59, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

• Help:Merging#Proposing a merger suggests that "In most circumstances, a local discussion should be started to attract sufficient input. This should include the proposal itself, the list of the affected pages, and a merger rationale." However, to simply merge the page without even stating any rationale as you have done does rather seem to go against the spirit of collaboration that should be the norm on Wikipedia. On the plus side, your efforts in, for example, renaming pub and other articles in line with WP:NATURAL are much appreciated, and I do understand that one can inadvertently cut corners in a desire to get things done, especially when there is so much to do, and I have been guilty of this myself. I might also mention that using the word "allow" in the phrasing "I'll wait a few days to allow you to search sources" does to me at least seem unduly patronising, especially for an editor of Gareth's experience. By the way, you state that "it has been established" - where and by whom please? In any event, I have now expanded the article. Edwardx (talk) 21:52, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for expanding the article. Two of the three sources you have used are not reliable - one of them is a website started by a couple of friends of mine so they'll not like me saying that! The ViewLondon source, however, has a review by Des de Moor, an award winning beer and pub writer; again, incidentally, someone I know. Des does do his research well. The notability, while still a little shaky for a standalone article, is starting to mount up. I apologise if anything I said or done has caused any personal hurt - that was not intended, and reading through again, I'm still unclear where offence could be taken - but please be assured that no offence or belittling of any kind was intended; nor was there any attempt or intent at cutting corners. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 10:22, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Better source request for File:Dizzycoolworld.jpg

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