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Barnesville Petroglyph

I think I simply sent the following response to my User talk rather than to you. As indicated I am not yet comfortable with the Talk process:

Thanks for the additional help and I will try re-editing the Barnesville Petroglyph article. It is not so much Swauger whose conclusions were incorrect but he did complicate matters by including the designs on the second ("lost") rock, which he later found. The 113 number (he also uses 114 on one of his diagrams), for example, actually includes the designs on both rocks. I think this is clarified in the Ohio Archaeologist article, which is, incidentally, available on the web, if you google on "Murphy lost Barnesville."

Yes, that is my COS profile and I certainly don't mind identifying myself. I am still somewhat perplexed by how the Talk function works but gather that "editing" is "replying."

One question: when I am prepared to re-edit the Barnesville Petroglyph article, it would be simpler to Undo your edit and re-edit my previous version, since you essentially restored the original. This this considered acceptable?

Jim Jlmurphyosu (talk) 18:26, 30 June 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jlmurphyosu (talk • contribs)

Thanks for restoring the Barnesville Petroglyph edit. There are a few things I will add/change. The confusion over the number of carvings on each rock remains. Also the "charcoal" vs. black paint. And I will indicate ownership by the Archaeological Conservancy. Thanks for your help with this. Jim Jlmurphyosu (talk) 14:42, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Declined speedy of tsunami article

G'day from Oz; regardless of the usefulness of the article, the creator is one of about two dozen sockpuppets of User:Ryan kirkpatrick. Another admin has deleted two other just-as-useful articles created by BriitshNO1. As far as I can tell, deleting such articles is WP policy; don't you think that it's time to get tough on this guy? YSSYguy (talk) 00:01, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Since you declined the speedy deletion, the only editors of the article apart from your good self have been IP socks of Ryan. YSSYguy (talk) 13:36, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Fraunhofer diffraction calculations

I have twice tried to create a subuser page in which to develop this article. It was deleted first time before I got a chance to put anything in (I had to rush away for my dinner!!). I did put an explanation in the talk page hoping it would be undeleted, but got no reply.

I then created it with a slightly different (corrected) name and added the stuff I've written so far. But now I find it has been converted to a full article, which I certainly did not want as there is much work to be done,and I haven't fully checked the mathematics. I have put a note to that effect on the page, but would really much prefer if it existed as one of my sub-pages, as I don't want anyone to waste their time going through mathematical derivations which are wrong.

I obviously have not got this sub-page business! Though I have created two without any problems, so is this jsut down to minor errors on my part?

I'm not sure who did the conversion as it appears that you deleted it.

I don't want to commit a Wiki-sin but what I would really like is to have my sub user-page back. Can you help.

The new page is at link to the live page

ThanksEpzcaw (talk) 20:41, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. Obviously all my fault - I intended to create a sub-user page, but didn't.

I see that you have now put it in its proper place - thanks.

I need to find out again how to create a sub-user pages. Not always easy to get information on Wikepedia, I find. But will try harder....... Epzcaw (talk) 23:14, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Mitchell County Citys

Hi, I have edited the Mitchell County Municipalities again. I live in the area and have great understanding of the countie's geography, as well as Mitchell County's Historical Records. Sales City is a incorporated city in norntern Mitchell County. It is self governing. Meigs is not shared with Mitchell County at all, however Vada is shared with Decatur County. All other locations are unincorporated and clearly identified by road markers on the major Georgia highways. --Violeta123321 (talk) 03:22, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Mitchell County considers Sales City to be a city such as Camilla and Pelham. Upon entering the area it has a 'city limits' sign, but if the census considers it a town I understand. Vada is most definatly in Mitchell County if Meigs is, half of Vada is in Mitchell County. The county doesn't consider Meigs to be a part of Mitchell County. I find it odd that the census would, considering that if a part of it sits over the county line it is a very small part. Then again many rural areas of counties have out-of-county adresses. Anna, Baker County, for instance has a Leary, Ga adress...even though it's no where near Leary. Technically if the census deems it to be a part (a very small part) of the county it should be included. Thanks. --Violeta123321 (talk) 04:00, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

If 'city' and 'town' are interchangeable, why does it matter if Sales City is considered a 'city' instead of a 'town'? I know that the Mitchell County part of Meigs isn't an unincorporated town. My example was of how out of county citys can have adresses in the area's home county. I've never seen this city limit sign, I'll have to investigate. I would trust the cenus with these matters, however, In many of my regional studies Google maps are highly incorect in South West Ga, as it seems to be in other rural areas. (Roads that no longer exist, county roads with wrong names/no names, incorect town location...ect.) --Violeta123321 (talk) 04:28, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Ah, I see. Interesting, I'll have to ask the Mitchell County municipalities department why this is. (considering they themselves don't condsider it a part of the county) As far as the legality issue, I've always heard Sales City to be considered a city due to its incorporated status, but I'll put more research into it. (And I'll take your word for it. :) ) And it's no problem, sorry I missunderstood the 'unoffical terms'. It can be hard to keep up with the incorporation and unincorporation of our municipalities, as they cange ever so often. Towns dry up quickly and become unincorporated and city and town limits are always expanding and/or shrinking. If you drove into our area's largest city, Albany, from Gillionville unincorporated you would see three 'Albany City Limits' signs. Only one, however, is correct. (It is the last one, everything before it falls into the municipality of Gillionville) It isn't hard to tell that regional studies students and historical society workers as my self can get very confused! Thanks for the help. --Violeta123321 (talk) 04:47, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

CommonsNotificationBot issue

Unfortunately, due to rate limit issues I'm only monitoring the categories the deletion is placed in - getting the reason from the tag at this stage caused the bot to slow to a crawl (making it a bit useless). I am working on resolving this issue - but I will update the template it places to make this clear in the mean time. Thanks! --Errant ^(chat!) 12:36, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Ah, okay; since this is what you meant it to do, no complaints. The bot is a great idea; thanks! Nyttend (talk) 13:14, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks :) If you have any other ideas for improvement please do let me know. Sometime next week I hope to find a free hour to add some new bits. --Errant ^(chat!) 14:36, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Barnesville/Tower sites

The Barnesville Petroglyph site was purchased by the Archaeological Conservancy (I think in 1999). That is one of the things I want to add to the Barnesville Petroglyph entry but I am not sure how soon I'll get back to revising it; I may have to do it piece-meal. The site is readily accessible and often visited by local people without permission. I got permission kind of after the fact, at least after my first visit, from Josh McConaughy who is with the Conservancy's Columbus office. I remember chiding him somewhat about preserving the carvings but there is no practical way of doing so without inviting vandalism.

As for the Tower Site, I think it is still owned by a coal company. I believe it was R & F Coal but they went out of business. There actually aren't many coal companies left in southeastern Ohio but I will have to check into who owns it now.

Jim Jlmurphyosu (talk) 14:50, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Forum User subpages at MFD

And tell me why you think this gets a free pass from WP:STALEDRAFT, particularly since Forum User hasn't edited since 2007. Oh wait, IT DOESN'T. Get your head on straight. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • ^{(Otters want attention)} 15:51, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

• Okay, i'm sorry, that was over the line. But still, what makes you think the page circumvents WP:STALEDRAFT? Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • ^{(Otters want attention)} 19:31, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

RE:All your Franklin County photos

Thanks for the message! I was bored one weekend and I noticed how many NRHP locations in Franklin County were missing photos. It's become something of a scavenger hunt now. Thank you for fixing the title of the Galbreath mound. The Cannon and Galbreath are very close and I got them backwards. Hopefully I'll have some photos of the Cannon Mound soon. I also have photos and information on the Coe Mound but it's one of the few on the NRHP that's really not been publicly identified so I was wrestling with if I should release that information or not.

PS let me know if I'm doing anything wrong. I'm very new to contributing to Wikipedia and it's got a little bit of a learning curve. :) - wdzinc — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wdzinc (talk • contribs) 14:44, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

List of massacres in Libya

I find a list with one item rather useless: List of massacres in Libya. The only item in the list lacks a source, and the number is actually a very broad estimate that's based mostly on the account of a single former detainee. Also, I doubt that people will be able to come up with more credible items. — Preceding unsigned comment added by StopWarCrimes (talk • contribs) 12:07, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying! StopWarCrimes (talk) 13:16, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

DYK nomination of William Van Wagoner

Hello! Your submission of William Van Wagoner at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and there still are some issues that may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Drmies (talk) 03:33, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• Did you seriously think that all that Midwestern editing could keep anyone awake? But I'm sleepy too, and I'll look in more detail at y'all's comments later. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 18:58, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

NRHP Wade Park

Look, I understand what you and EurekaLott are both saying, but the fact of the matter is that A)Wade Park doesn't have a separate article right now, and B)The NRHP Infobox clearly states that it is Wade Park. I don't know how much time you've spent in Cleveland, but I'm from there, and the museum is located in Wade Park -- the park itself essentially serves as the museum campus, not unlike the section of Grant and Burnham Parks do here in Chicago. Wade Park's historic status owes as much to the museums that occupy it as it does anything else (Jeptha Wade gave the city the park property to build a museum on it).

As the founding member of WikiProject Cleveland, I'm asking you to leave the infobox in place for the time being at very least - until a Wade Park article can be constructed (I don't want it to just be some token stub). Thank you Ryecatcher773 (talk) 17:41, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of James R. Wigginton

The article James R. Wigginton has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

Notability never established.

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. I dream of horses If you reply here, please leave me a {{Talkback}} message on my talk page. @ 19:23, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, Nyttend. You have new messages at I dream of horses's talk page.
Message added 01:49, 10 July 2011 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

I dream of horses @ 01:49, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Wade Park

The whole point is that the park is much more than the museum (it's more than 10% of a square mile), so it's a significantly different entity from the museum itself. Because there's no article on the HD, we shouldn't have its infobox anywhere at all. Granted, we shouldn't have a stub for the sole purpose of filling a hole, but we also shouldn't pretend that another article fills that hole either. Nyttend (talk) 00:48, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

You are partially correct in your assertion made in the edit summary for the Wade Park article - the park isn't the entire district, but you are also partially incorrect. You're saying: The park itself is not the district, and the National Register database indicates that the park isn't even part of the district where that I underlined is where you're erring. The NRHP website lists this: Roughly bounded by E. 105 St., East Blvd., Chester and Euclid Aves. , Cleveland ('650 acres, 7 buildings, 1 structure)' Unless we are looking at different NRHP websites, and you haven't either spent time in Cleveland or ,at the very least, looked at trhe area in question on the map, then you're not taking into account two three things: 1) the 650 acres includes Wade Park (Google Map it). 2) The name Wade Park District explicitly (and even implicitly if you're familiar firsthand with the history of Cleveland). 3) (and this is related to my second point regarding a familiarity with the history of Cleveland) Jeptha Wade's property, which is where Wade Park is and the heart of the district in question, was the seed from where all the buildings in the district sprung from. The CMA, Botanical Gardens, Natural History Museum and Severance Hall, which all are part of the district, would not be there if Wade Park wasn't set aside to be the cultural epicenter that garnered it's NRHP entry.

Lastly, given that any one of the buildings listed on the registry are technically part of the WPHD, there would be no false information by including the NRHP infobox on any of those articles -- which was my entire point of putting it on the CMA article in the first place. The infobox being clearly labelled as Wade Park District is not misleading by including it on a building that is part of the district. We could argue about this ad nauseam. But what's the point?

Of course I can make an entire article that covers the district specifically. But why just regurgitate the same stuff found in each individual Wikipedia article that exists for every building that is in the HD (including the Wade Park itself)? Bandwdith pollution notwithstanding, it is simply redundant. Or we could make it less redundant by simply putting the infobox in one of the articles already out there... and the Wade Park article being the namesake for the HD would make the most sense (the article is hardly complete, and could be expanded to include an entire section specifically about the HD and relationship bewteen the two)... and if not that article than the CMA which is the largest building in the HD, and the reason I put it there in the first. Either way, the underlying question in this argument that I have for you is this: how is it productive in our task as Wikipedians, and moreover as members of Ohio-specific Wikprojects, to keep adding and removing factual info from articles with direct relationships to the subject of our debate? Are we trying to make Wikpedia a more informative user-based encyclopedia, or are we nitpicking over how to make a piece of factual information, that is an important part of a large US City, available to those who are looking at Wikipedia for information? Ryecatcher773 (talk) 06:51, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

DYK for Martin Wines

—HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 08:06, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Revert at 1972

Hi Nyttend, admittedly I didn't even try to check all the recent edits of 24.209.198.223, but the one you reverted at 1972 was a good edit – the anonymous user removed two red-linked names. Therefore I've reverted your edit to that page. Graham87 14:32, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

This user's edits seem more like a mix of good and bad edits to me ... which makes things more frustrating. Either that or I'm not thinking straight. :-) Graham87 14:45, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Centralized discussion of some census-related issues

Hi. With the 2010 Census data becoming a focus for a lot of editing activity, I think we need a US-wide discussion of editing conventions -- in lieu of the localized edit warring that's been happening in various articles and templates. I've started this at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject United States, which I think is an appropriate venue for it. First topic there is Describing/naming census designated places. Please participate in that discussion, if you see fit, and add more topics. --Orlady (talk) 19:07, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Protection request

I semi-protected for 2 weeks. Although it is not listed at GNIS, it may be that it does meet notability (have not had much time to look at refs). I also heard from and replied in some detail at User talk:Keizers#Re_Buford_Highway. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 02:07, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Re; Barnhill picture

Thanks for the kind words. I was in Dover on vacation with my camera and had some free time, so thought I'd look to see if there were any pics needed in the area. It was a bit of a challenge, since I expected there to be a central business district; I drove through twice before spotting apparently the only public building (aside from a church and a storage business), and I was about to use a photo of the village limit sign instead.

I do have one semi-newbie question: I made some edits under my IP before registering ([1]) and would like to "claim" them now that I have registered. Do you know if that's possible, and if so, how to go about it? Floatjon (talk) 04:13, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

• Thanks, that was actually very helpful -- the redirects were good enough to do what I needed. Floatjon (talk) 22:59, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

File:Shakhtar Donetsk.png

Hi!Please,stop deleting this file.This image is not much larger(only 10 KB). Alex (talk) 12:08, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

I reduced the file's size.(42 KB).Can i upload it???(you will not delete it???) Alex (talk) 12:36, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Please delete File:Shakhtar Donetsk.png. I uploaded smaller one. Alex (talk) 13:12, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Alex95-Ukraine (talk) 13:18, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

File:FC_Dynamo_Kyiv_logo.png

Can you delete this file from Commons?? I uploaded on Commons smaller one. Alex (talk) 14:27, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Elmendorf Air Force Base

I was trying to get the article renamed to Joint Base Elmendorf-Richardson, which is now a #redirect, not move it into talk space :) The instructions were to put that notice on the talk page. Sorry if there were any confusion.

Regards Bwmoll3 (talk) 15:36, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

90% illustrated lists

If you know of any 90%+ completed lists, please add them to the list just below the fully illustrated NRHP lists. BTW, if you've noticed me recently spending more time BSing than adding content, I'm coming off the injured reserve list tomorrow. Smallbones (talk) 03:19, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

DYK for Jean Thurel

Materialscientist (talk) 08:02, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

File:TDright.svg

Thanks for the delete and the tip on db-g7. Vanisaac (talk) 13:34, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Next Children's Museum Backstage Pass

Hello! I wanted to personally invite you to The Children's Museum of Indianapolis' 2nd Backstage Pass and Edit-a-Thon, which will occur on Saturday, August 20. The Wikipedian in Residence project is coming up on one year and is going strong. While the first year focused on garnering institutional enthusiasm among staff, organizing multiple content donations, and guiding teens in research and article creation, the next year will focus on establishing an E-Volunteer program and more deliberately connecting with local Wikipedians and WikiProjects around the world. You can read a summary of our projects on the museum's blog, or visit the project page.

We hope you're able to attend the upcoming Backstage Pass! If you're not able to attend, but are interested in remaining involved and up to date on the museum's Wikipedia project, please sign up on our E-Volunteer page. There will also be an opportunity to participate in the Edit-a-Thon online, if you cannot attend on-site. If you'd like to make a request for images or research content from our curators, you can add to the Requests page. Let me know if you have any questions and I hope to be in touch! LoriLee (talk) 11:19, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Hi! Sorry I did not reply sooner; I see that you did go ahead and sign up, which was going to be my suggestion. I will be checking in to confirm about a week prior, so it's no big deal if you have to decline. Though I hope that you are able to make it! If you have any questions in the meantime let me know. I will, however, be at Wikimania for the first week and a half of August, so will be less reliable at that point in time. Thanks for touching base! LoriLee (talk) 11:08, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Totally understand. I'm thrilled that the event is on a Saturday this time so that more people can likely attend, though I knew that a summer weekend could pose its own problems. Safe travels in the meantime! LoriLee (talk) 11:17, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Have you seen that we got the Broad Ripple Park Carousel article to Featured Article? (Though only with User:Ealdgyth's help taking the project on! I'm pretty thrilled by that. We also have a QRpedia code up in that exhibit now. Glad you'll get to see it! LoriLee (talk) 11:28, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

DYK for William Van Wagoner

EncycloPetey (talk) 08:02, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Hopewell template Osborn Site

Hello, Nyttend. You have new messages at Heironymous Rowe's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Heiro 15:06, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Mitchell County, Georgia-Historical Towns

Hi,

I changed the 'ghost towns' back to 'historical towns' on the Mitchell County, Ga template. These areas are still populated, therefore not ghost towns. The areas were once vastly populated incorporated places, but now have dropped below incorporated and unincorporated. Saco, for instance relies on the nearest unincorporated town to vote (Cotton), although if asked the resident will say he/she is from Saco. The county considers them historically important and have published histories in the Mitchell County History Book...which I will add as soon as I get my hands on a copy! Anyway, I would consider 'historical town' to be more accurate, but I'm willing to listen to your reasoning if you think otherwise.

regards, v. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Violeta123321 (talk • contribs) 06:15, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Gotcha, next time I'll add those into unincorporated communities. Thanks! :) --Violeta123321 (talk) 20:42, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

List of residences in Emmerdale

You are receiving this notice because you are a significant contributor (at least two edits) this year to this article. The article has been tagged for months now as suffering from a number of problems. Fixing these is crucial to the very existence of the article. Notice of this was placed on the article's talk page in March of this year without subsequent response. Notice of this was placed at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Emmerdale at the same time, without subsequent response. This is a last ditch effort to get those people most interested in the existence of this article to fix the extant problems before it is placed for deletion. If you can, please address the article failings as highlighted in the warning boxes at the top of the article within the near future. Thank you, --Hammersoft (talk) 19:32, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Pic of Harry and Louisiana Beall Paull Mansion

Hey buddy ... working on West Virginia. Glad to see the pics you added for the Wellsburg listings. While preparing Harry and Louisiana Beall Paull Mansion, it seemed to me that the pic posted on the list did not match the description since it doesn't look to be Spanish Colonial in style. See the pic included near the end of the NRHP nom form. From what I can tell, the pic you have on the Brooke County list page, File:Harry and Louisiana Beall Paull Mansion from the northwest.jpg looks more like the Lewis Hall Mansion, see pic in NRHP nom form Are you able to confirm this? Thanks in advance.--Pubdog (talk) 15:45, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the response. Glad you had a fun trip! I see the "1312" on the front and agree you have the right address. Please take a moment to compare File:Harry and Louisiana Beall Paull Mansion front.jpg with the pic at the end of the Lewis Hall NRHP nom form. Now compare that with the Harry and Louisiana Beall Paull Mansion pic included near the end of the NRHP nom form. I think you'll agree something is messed up. Perhaps the addresses in the nomination forms, or perhaps they renumbered since 1985? I'm reluctant to include the pic you recommend in the Harry and Louisiana Beall Paull Mansion article.--Pubdog (talk) 16:34, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Looking at your File:Lewis Hall Mansion.jpg, that is the Harry and Louisiana Beall Paull Mansion. I can tell it is a Spanish Colonial and from what I can see from your pic, I can tell it has the tile roof, etc. It also looks very much to be like the Harry and Louisiana Beall Paull Mansion pic included near the end of the NRHP nom form. Please advise--Pubdog (talk) 16:37, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for following up on this. I posted a second look request at all this on WP:NRHP. I haven't run across anything else that seems awry.--Pubdog (talk) 18:23, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Sorry for the pic category changes. I will refrain from doing more. Thanks for pointing me to the additional images of the Lucy Tarr Mansion. Added as Gallery to article. Cheers--Pubdog (talk) 18:57, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Ridiculous behaviour

Blocking someone for 3RR without bothering to examine the content is lazy at best and malicious at worst. It is also desperately irresponsible and extremely stupid. I see that your userpage doesn't mark you as eligible for admin recall, and I must say I don't blame you for that decision if you're going to behave so foolishly: you'd be having recall requests every other week if your decision to block without checking out the situation was typical, and nobody would want that now, would they!
I'm very serious: don't ever block someone again unless you're willing to take the 90 seconds necessary to look into the facts.
As you will shortly notice from my userpage, I am leaving Wikipedia over this. Over your block. So when my various stalkers turn up to congratulate you, I hope that you at least will have the decency to look over my contributions to articles, to look over what I've done, and conclude that you are the individual who is responsible for my departure.
That's all, and now you may get back to whatever you're doing. ╟─TreasuryTag►Clerk of the Parliaments─╢ 14:54, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

You asked...

So,

Hello, Nyttend. You have new messages at Hammersoft's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

 :) --Hammersoft (talk) 15:55, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

List of residents

As far as I know, lists of people, be it alumni, residents, or members of a club, all follow WP:NLIST. As that guidelines says "every entry in any such list requires a reliable source attesting to the fact that the named person is a member of the listed group." {{alumni}} is simply a template used to mark all lists of people which don't follow WP:NLIST. You mentioned a "different process" for lists of residents, but I am not aware of such. Can you please point me to the guideline that says that lists of residents do not need to be sourced? Or maybe to the guideline that explains that process you mentioned? Best regards. --Muhandes (talk) 00:02, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Nationwide, we base these lists on the content in the individuals' articles: their residency is verified there. Since the standard for alumni lists appears to be that citations are desired there, this template is inappropriate, since that's not the standard for lists of residents embedded in community articles. Nyttend (talk) 00:49, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand this standard. Can you please point me to relevant guideline? It seems to me that it goes directly against the very basic verifiability policy. I challange the entire list, so according to policy it "must be attributed to a reliable published source using an inline citation" (my emphasis). The policy does not allow for another article as a source.

Practically speaking, I started going over the list, and Johnny Blatnik is a completely unsourced article, and specifically has no source that he ever lived in Bridgeport. Should I remove it from the list according to the standard? John Todd Zimmer is also completely unsourced. Charlie Wilson is sourced, but has no source that he lived in Bridgeport. Several of the other in the list don't have footnotes but may have sources, I did not check. Should I remove them all from the list?

Please don't take this as argument for the sake of argument. I really want to understand how this standard works. --Muhandes (talk) 11:12, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

This is the way that we've always done it, and remember that policy is based on common practice: common practice is that we verify residency on the biographical articles. There's no reason to treat this article differently from the thousands of other communities with such sections. Of course, if you want to add citations to this section, I'll not complain :-) However, don't remove anything unless you challenge and remove information from the individuals' articles first. Nyttend (talk) 13:21, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

You say "common practice is that we verify residency", well, no one verified the residency, since the articles have zero sources for verifying with. They could be totally made-up. I still don't understand how this so called "standard" works, if the individual's article may be crap (and some of these are, no offense) and a community article can use the individual's article as evidence of residency, without even an iota of checking. I find it even stranger that there are facts in Wikipedia that cannot be challenged. That's not how I thought Wikipedia works. I don't see this "standard" documented anywhere, and I think if it went to RFC it would never stand. It seems to me like bad practice protected by people too lazy to fix it. On the other hand I'm not sure I care enough about articles dealing with US communities to go RFC or do something radical about it. If I did want to discuss it, where would suggest be the place? WP:USA? I may challenge the facts on individuals' articles in this case and remove them from the list, if I find myself bored. --Muhandes (talk) 15:20, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, the way Wikipedia works is that we base our policies on the way we do things. It's not documented everywhere because essentially everyone except vandals (e.g. those adding themselves to lists or removing people for the fun of it; this is not a comment on you) follows it. As I said already, the place to challenge this is at the biographical articles, not at the community articles. Nyttend (talk) 16:52, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

There was quite a discussion about this at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Cities/US Guideline#Notable people sections and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Cities/US Guideline#References for Notable people among others. When I took the Kent, Ohio article through the FAC process, I had to have citations for notable people even when the article on that person also had a citation. Why? Because each article in Wikipedia should stand on its own. Many of the "citation needed" tags in city articles are because the article on the individual does not have a valid citation connecting the city to the person. If it does, that citation can (and should) be used in the city article too. Rather than just removing the citation needed tag, replace it with the proper citation. Just because something is common practice doesn't mean it's the best way. --JonRidinger (talk) 19:58, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the pointers JonRidinger. Reading these discussions it seems (to me) like consensus was actually that citations are required, and citation needed tags should not be removed. Am I reading this correctly? I don't intend to remove any person from the list. I'll also add citations where I can do that easily. I think one {{alumni}} tag is better (aesthetically) than 11 {{Citation needed}}, but I can go either way. --Muhandes (talk) 07:31, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Addendum: seems like the discussion was mostly academic. In all cases where the article claimed residency, I could easily find a source. For the remaining four the individual's article does not claim residency. I removed one which appeared to be an error and left three that played for Bridgeport High School, but there is no evidence they ever resided in Bridgeport, and their article doesn't claim in either, because I was not sure what practice is in this case. --Muhandes (talk) 07:56, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

If it's common practice, it's the consensus of those who are involved, so one or two people shouldn't go against it. FA reviewers will also chastise you for using hyphens in names such as "Firstname-Secondname House": it's definitely not the consensus of the large majority of people who work with these articles. Nyttend (talk) 11:58, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

(talk page stalker)I deal with alumni lists a lot (mostly at schools and tv stations), and Nyttend is correct in that verification at the target article is acceptable. WP:V does not require that everything be verified by an inline citation. However, having said that, if the target article does not have a citation for the residence, then the name should be removed from the list. It's not just that the name has to be bluelinked, its that it has to be verified somewhere. Qwyrxian (talk) 12:08, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

I would not have said anything if there were sources in the individual articles, I would have probably just copied them. The problem arose when Nyttend refused to even have a citation needed tag equivalent, ({{alumni}} in this case, which I prefer aesthetically, but would not mind replacing with 11 tags) when no source was available in the target article. If I understand correctly, JonRidinger above says a citation needed tag is appropriate in such a case and Qwyrxian now says even completely removing the individual is appropriate. Nyttend refuses to even show a tag, saying everything should be done in the target article. Are you sure there is a "standard" involved? --Muhandes (talk) 12:47, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

WP:V is quite clear in two respects: 1) It requires that all quotations and anything challenged or likely to be challenged be attributed in the form of an inline citation that directly supports the material and 2) the burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. In short, if an editor questions unsourced entries on such a list, the burden is on those who desire to include the entries to ensure that they are properly referenced. Practically speaking though, so long as each person's article contains a clear and sourced statement linking the person to the place, there is little cause for concern unless you are preparing the article for FAC or other such rigmarole. However, such list sections tend to accumulate much cruft and do need regular cleaning so it is perfectly reasonable for an editor to insist on inline citations for such a list. older ≠ wiser 13:24, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Former communities that aren't really ghost towns

Hey, I'm hoping you'll know the answer to a question. I just wrote an article on Choctaw Corner, Alabama and don't know to how it should be added (or if it should be added) to Template:Clarke County, Alabama. It is a former town that was abandoned (only a cemetery remained at the site), but it isn't really a ghost town because it was later absorbed by Thomasville and the site rebuilt with new subdivisions and the like. I added it to the county article simply as a "Former community." Any help appreciated. Altairisfar (talk) 00:13, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

[Talk page lurker here, speaking for myself, not Nyttend] There are myriad former places in the United States that aren't "ghost towns" (just look at a 19th century post office list!), so there are many potential opportunities to create lists of "Former communities." That's the term I recommend using in the county article. It seems odd to distinguish between two communities in Clarke County that are considered "ghost towns" and a third former place that is a "Former community." Why not list all three of them in the county article as "Former communities"?
As for the county template, I was not aware that anyone was using the county templates to list out-and-out ghost towns; I think of those templates as listing only places that have a recognizable (if not legally recognized) existence in our modern world. I am surprised to find that the template for my Tennessee county lists the forgotten community of Fork Mountain as an "unincorporated community," but there are other former communities (and communities whose current existence is debatable) in my local area (similar in many respects to Choctaw Corner) that aren't listed in the county templates. Examples include Blair, Tennessee, Cardiff, Tennessee, Elza, Tennessee, Loyston, Tennessee, Robertsville, Tennessee, and Wheat, Tennessee; I'd hate to clutter up the county templates with these kinds of places. --Orlady (talk) 02:43, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the input. Your line of thought makes perfect sense to me. I did change the arrangement in the county article, but I think I'll leave the template as is for now. Altairisfar (talk) 03:24, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

That tells me what I needed to know. I'll leave it out of the template. This was the first time that I had come across this situation. If anyone thinks the county article needs rearranging or adjusting, I'll leave it to them. Thank you! Altairisfar (talk) 04:33, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

John Daker

Why was the John Daker page deleted? You seriously haven't heard of him? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Waldizzle (talk • contribs) 01:51, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Eynesbury Rovers

I've checked your comment about the second reference, but it seems all the info is there. The three claims are:

1. After World War II the club switched to the United Counties League.
2. In 1960–61 they failed to win a league match all season and gained only three points, finishing bottom of the league.
3. In 2000–01 they finished bottom of the Premier Division and were relegated to Division One.

The source states:

1. 1946-47 Joined United Counties League
2. 1960-61 EAST 32 0 [wins] 3 29 30 135 3 [points] 17/17 [position]
3. 2000-01... 21/21 [position]... 2001 Relegated to Division One

Regarding the was/were situation, you can use both when referring to "the club", but if I was only to refer to "Eynesbury Rovers" I would have to use were. Cheers, Number 57 10:08, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

On reading your comment on the T:TDYK page, have you assumed that all sentences prior to the ones referenced are also cited in that link? In order to clarfiy, I have cited the prior sentences to the first ref. Cheers, Number 57 10:12, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm not really a fan of referencing Honours sections as it somehow looks awkward, but I have now referenced every sentence in the prose that refers to trophy wins. I hope this is ok? Cheers, Number 57 12:43, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

OK, I have cited the references section. Regarding page numbers, I do usually use them (see Cuban general election, 1924 as an example), but for some reason the Blakeman book does not have page numbers so I cannot on this occasion!! Number 57 12:55, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm. There was a typo in the ISBN (it should be 9781908037022), but that doesn't show up either. However, you can see it here. I have also added the publisher (it is Progagator Press in Leeds, not ECFL as the library catalogue states). Number 57 13:13, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

No worries. Number 57 13:22, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Talk back

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Templat editprotect

Yes, what you did on editprotected {{IPA soundbox}} was as intended. Thank you. Was my request unclear? -DePiep (talk) 10:54, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Pennsylvania Townships

A couple of years ago we standardized the naming of Pennsylvania's townships. There is a discussion to reverse this brewing at Talk:Horton Township, Elk County, Pennsylvania. I went back and found the original discussion at Wikipedia:WikiProject Pennsylvania. I just want to let you know since it seems you initiated the moves in the first place. Gerry D (talk) 21:15, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Removing the personal attacks from Treasury Tag

Howdy,

I see you removed the personal attacks against you by Treasury Tag. As someone similarly slandered my view is that it would have been more appropriate to leave them - he's not (I think) going to cause Wikipedia any problems any more and perhaps as an act of mercy there's a certain dignity we can grant him by leaving that up.

While the analogy of the last meal on death row is a poor one in form, I feel in qualia it expresses what I mean.

Egg Centric 14:27, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

I'll interpret your lack of response to suggest you disagree - in that case I will remove the entire notice as I think it should be consistent, in any case. Egg Centric 17:45, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Ah right, sorry for the confusion. I was wondering if you would consider putting the attacks against yourself back how he left them, given the context, for the reason given above. But of course it's reasonable to be anti-attacks against yourself too! In the latter case though I think it best to remove the entire rant. Egg Centric 17:51, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

It seems someone else has put them back in their entirety. I have no objections to that (indeed, I feel that it is the right thing to do - although I think they are personal attacks) so long as they all remain, not just the ones on me. Just letting you know if you weren't aware. Egg Centric 18:42, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

DOON GROUP OF COLLEGES

hello.....i want help from u,because the article on DOON GROUP OF COLLEGES was copy/pasted by me from website of the college that is www.dpmc.in and that my college and i want that on wikipedia,i have tried 3 times but it is being deleted by diffrent persons can u please tell me how to overcome this situation,and create the page DOON GROUP OF COLLEGES by using the data from website..please

DOON GROUP OF COLLEGES

ok....can i now create the page DOON GROUP OF COLLEGES with my own information.....i am unable to create that page again..help

Kentucky challenge

Next time you're in Kentucky and want a challenge, see if you can find the Battle of Dutton's Hill Monument. I had no luck two years ago finding it. I looked all over a cemetery which seemed like it should have it, for which picture is File:Dutton's Hill Cemetery 2.JPG, but nothing fit the black and white photo I once had of it. It may no longer exist, or may be well hidden.--King Bedford I ^{Seek his grace} 18:27, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

BTW, I'll look on this page for a response (I like keeping conversations on the same page).--King Bedford I ^{Seek his grace} 18:28, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Looks like it's surrounded by brush. According to the nomination form, it's on the hill itself, which USGS topo maps show to be at the southern edge of the cemetery; Google Satellite suggests to me that this is the brushiest portion of the cemetery. Thanks for the suggestion, but I doubt I'll be in the area — last month was a church conference at Campbellsville that I'll not likely be able to attend again for a few years. If I'm in Kentucky at all over the next several months, it will either be in the Evansville area, or in the Louisville area, or in the Cincinnati area. Nyttend (talk) 22:45, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

No problem. Just thought I'd mention it.--King Bedford I ^{Seek his grace} 22:48, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! As I think I said on your talk page, I'd like to get some photos in your part of Indiana; are there any sites that you were able to photograph but only after working hard at it? I've visited everything in Washington and Harrison counties, so I'm thinking largely Scott, Floyd, and Clark, although other comments would definitely be welcome. Nyttend (talk) 23:02, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Well, getting those Tunnel Mill pictures was a goal of mine for years, and I am happy someone finally got the Broad Ripple Park Carousel pics. The biggest thing I still need to get in Clark County is the Abbott-Holloway Farm. I couldn't get a better picture because I desperately needed to go to the bathroom and didn't dare go out to take decent pictures; any further details would be TMI so I'll spare you. Also, nearby Madison, Indiana probably has lots of historical objects that need to be photographed but I never got to it.--King Bedford I ^{Seek his grace} 01:06, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Hm, okay; perhaps you've noticed that I slightly modified the coords at the Clark County list for the A-H Farm, since the Interim Report shows it at a slightly different location. I'm not 100% sure that the coords are correct for the Bottorff–McCulloch Farm, but I can't easily find the location given by the Interim Report on the map; I'm just thankful that there's a specific address given, so I'll just be able to go by numbers on the mailboxes if they're present. I know that it's been five years, but I'll ask anyway: do you know if the coords for B-M are correct? Finally, you may be interested to know that I've just added the final photos for Center Township, Marion County; I finished the other townships some time ago, so Marion County is now fully illustrated; all that I want to photograph that I've not yet done is the carousel (since I try to visit sites for my own interest, even if they're already photographed) and two delisted sites, which I expect to get in a couple weeks. Another place is pending, the Broad Ripple Firehouse, but I was able to get that as well, so a separate trip won't be needed. Thanks for all the help! Nyttend (talk) 01:25, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Man, I wish I could go to that Indy thing (I'll be working). Anyways, the Lat/Long for BM looks right. (You should see the Lat/Long for Hopkinsville Commercial Historic District in KY, which they placed halfway between Costa Rica and the Galapagos).--King Bedford I ^{Seek his grace} 06:25, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Threshing stone

I need someone to help me rename a new article that I created. I need the first letter of the second word of the Threshing stone article to be lower-case. I didn't notice it until after I created the article. Thanks in advance! • Sbmeirow • Talk • 01:49, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

I moved it. Thanks for the help! • Sbmeirow • Talk • 02:09, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Wikimania in DC next year

Wikimania will be in Washington, DC next August and I'd like to get the List of RHPs in DC table completed by then, as a present to all the visitors. I made a general proposal/invitation at

Talk:National_Register_of_Historic_Places_listings_in_Washington,_D.C.#Wikimania_in_DC

I'd you don't get to DC very often - but I'd never forgive myself if you did go there and didn't know about this little project. You could certainly help eliminate the red-links in any case. Please take a look and any help would be appreciated.

Smallbones (talk) 17:32, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Glacial Kame

Please respond at Template_talk:Did_you_know/Ridgeway_Site#Ridgeway_Site to my question about more than one type site. Binksternet (talk) 16:46, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Cummins, AR

Hi Nyttend! About http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Lincoln_County,_Arkansas&diff=417596968&oldid=417349512

The US GNIS lists "Cummins, Arkansas" as a place. More less it's the Cummins Unit. WhisperToMe (talk) 23:38, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

• Normally you don't list prisons. But there are a few out there that are considered "places" within their own right (US GNIS lists them as "places" - or they have post offices) - For instance "Angola" and "Parchman" are listed as "places" even though they only consist of the prison property. Most American prisons are NOT considered "places" like that. - Employees who work on, say, Angola, say "I'm from Angola, Louisiana" and put down "Angola, LA" as their place of origin.
• Also all of the prisons that are "places" have on-property housing for employees, so they are populated communities (or that is populated with non-prisoners) - The establishments are sprawling prison farms that have their own post offices, employee housing, waste treatment plants, etc.
• So far the only American prisons that are entirely "places" are Parchman, Angola, Cummins, and Oakley.
• Also "Whitfield, Mississippi" is the Mississippi State Hospital
• WhisperToMe (talk) 04:48, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

File source problem with File:Uyyalawada Narasimha Reddy.JPG

This is in response regarding the above file. I have provided the information in the photograph's page that it was originally done more than 150 years ago.Please check the details there.thank you. Foodie 377 (talk) 04:55, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

The style of painting is Nirmal so definetely before 20th century. This is a slavish and faithful reproduction of an original work. Definetely older than 70 years. Foodie 377 (talk) 15:22, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

PS. It also qualifies as PD-India. Pls have a look at the file page. I have given explanation there. Foodie 377 (talk) 18:56, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Wichita High School Southeast

Could you rename the article "Wichita High School Southeast" to "Wichita Southeast High School" because all the other Wichita public high school articles have the direction in the 2nd word. A redirect already exists, thus I can't move the article. • Sbmeirow • Talk • 05:01, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Confirming Backstage Pass

Hello! The Children's Museum's Backstage Pass & Edit-a-Thon is this coming Saturday, August 20th. Please confirm, either here or on my talk page, that you will be attending. Kindly include if you will be bringing a guest.

We ask that you meet us outside of the Welcome Center Security Office between 9:45 and 10:00am. Park in the free garage and make your way across the skywalk (located between the 2nd and 3rd levels of the garage). Come down the ramp and make a sharp left towards the security office. You will be asked to check in prior to starting the day.

Please check the event page for more details. If you have any other questions, please don't hesitate to ask. Looking forward to seeing you! LoriLee (talk) 15:17, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

OK thanks! Let me know. Good luck with your car & glad you're safe. LoriLee (talk) 02:33, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

DYK for Ridgeway Site

Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:03, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

autographs

Hi, I saw your comment there at the BLP n - can you please comment further to help accieve a resolution - you assert the users additions were correct and beneficial? Off2riorob (talk) 00:28, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Categories in Washita County

Hi, can you please create Category:Geography of Washita County, Oklahoma and Category:Populated places in Washita County, Oklahoma? Thank you very much. Jllm06 (talk) 13:01, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

TT attacks

Ok it seems to be back online, and ignoring my attempt at offering it an olive branch. I'm not sure if I can bothered with the aggro of removing the insults (which now that it is signing in I don't feel it has any right to have up) so what do you think? Egg Centric 18:47, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Howdy,

Why don't you agree with my removals? If his claims about me were correct then I really ought to be banned! Fact is his gibbering about me is a super personal attack too.

On the other hand, dunno why I'm arguing this point so much. In the end it only reflects poorly on him, really. I need to stop thinking too hard. Fancy a game of something?

Egg Centric 21:20, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Ok I see what you mean. How would you fell if I were to hypothetically de-link everything linking to me? (And this is a hypothetical exercise as I am not getting involved in this stuff!) Egg Centric 21:26, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

(P.S. You can see him back in action now, he's reverting you. I feel sorry for him basically. TreasuryTag, if you're reading this, you can contact me by email and I will speak to you in confidence. I can even call you back if necessary. But this sort of thing has to stop for your own sanity). Egg Centric 21:37, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps asking at ANI if it is a personal attack would be the best solution. If support there is that it is a PA then TT can be warned not to replace it. Off2riorob (talk) 21:40, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Hm. So calling someone lazy is not a personal attack? That's... interesting. I wonder what TT would define as a PA? Anyhoo, good luck with this one. --Ebyabe (talk) 21:50, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Nyttend, my statement was very specific, namely that you were too lazy to check out the diffs properly before blocking. I inferred this from your use of the phrase, "I've not looked at any of the content," and without doing that, you couldn't possibly tell whether or not any of the exemptions applied.
I strongly suggest that, if you still feel like the content in my userspace is a personal attack on you, that you either (a) suggest alternative wording, which I will be happy to consider, or (b) ask for an uninvolved administrator to weigh in. I should also remind you that WP:3RR very much applies to your deletion of material in this case. ╟─TreasuryTag►CANUKUS─╢ 21:52, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Nyttend, I'm sure you don't need me to point this out, but just incase you think you're alone on this issue... you don't have to get involved with any of TT's silly games! As you will have noted during his so-called scrambled password absence, not a single user posted on his talk page to beg him to reconsider. Frankly you could probably block him now for baiting you and no one will say anything. Egg Centric 22:46, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Why don't you stop baying for blood and start doing something useful? ╟─TreasuryTag►belonger─╢ 07:55, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

• Once again, I suggest that you read over WP:UNINVOLVED – if you are as correct as you think you are about these so-called personal attacks, then you should have no trouble finding a neutral admin to agree with you. As to the issue of the 3RR, Rd232 addressed the issue of your not reviewing the content involved – and, like me, concluded that it was grossly irresponsible of you not to have bothered to look at the diffs. ╟─TreasuryTag►belonger─╢ 07:55, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

August 2011

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on User talk:TreasuryTag. Users are expected to collaborate with others and avoid editing disruptively.

In particular, the three-revert rule states that:

1. Making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24-hour period is almost always grounds for an immediate block.
2. Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes; work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you continue to edit war, you may be blocked from editing without further notice. ╟─TreasuryTag►Africa, Asia and the UN─╢ 11:27, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

I never said you had violated the 3RR. The template notes that you are engaged in an edit-war (having made three reverts within the last 24 hours) and would be in violation should you make any further reverts. If you had bothered to read it (I see a pattern here...) there wouldn't be any issue over this. ╟─TreasuryTag►directorate─╢ 11:34, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

I think you'll find that the 3RR doesn't apply within one's own userspace. If only you'd bothered to read the policy (I see a pattern here...) you would know this. Furthermore, I notice from your forum-shopping to another admin's talkpage that you think I have accused you of baying for blood. If you bother to read what I wrote (I see a pattern here...) you will notice that it is not you I am accusing of this. ╟─TreasuryTag►stannator─╢ 11:44, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

As just about everyone has agreed, comments such as those that I removed are personal attacks. Well, given that the only uninvolved administrator to comment has said, "Does his rant violate WP:NPA? Meh," I'm not altogether convinced. I looked at the history of my user talkpage and found an edit summary of "Warning: Violating the three-revert rule" — well, yet again, that goes to show that you should read the content and not merely the edit-summaries. I see a pattern here. ╟─TreasuryTag►draftsman─╢ 11:59, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

TT

I think your best course is to ignore what has been succinctly described as a "petulant flounce" and move on. My contact with TT has been limited or non-existent, and while I see nothing blockable here, or particularly worth removing, it's obvious that TT's pattern of confrontational behavior continues as his list of perceived opponents grows. It's clear also that there's no sympathy for his gripe, and I think this suggestion [2] covers it pretty well. If it doesn't go away of TT's accord in, say 48 hours, I'll take it to MfD. Acroterion (talk) 14:04, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Plaza Substation

Thanks for the info. I have been to Olvera Street, which is a pedestrian-only tourist area, several times and have asked people there about the Plaza Substation , but nobody seemed to know where/what it was. With the new info you've supplied, I'll try to capture a shot the next time I'm down that way. Cbl62 (talk) 22:07, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

TB

Hello, Nyttend. You have new messages at Wikipedia:Possibly_unfree_files/2011_August_10.
Message added 06:57, 18 August 2011 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

I've fixed the problem. If you'd revisit it, that'd be swell. Sven Manguard Wha? 06:57, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Backstage Pass

Hello!

Thanks for keeping me in the loop on your car. I hope it's fixed quickly! How far away are you from the museum? Depending on where you are I could possibly pick you up. I'm picking up one guest from the airport (they're taking the shuttle from Bloomington). I'm assuming you're far enough away from a bus line? (The museum has its own bus stop.) Thanks again for your efforts. We hope you can make it. LoriLee (talk) 11:51, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Sure, User:awadewit is taking the shuttle up. I'm picking her up at 8:30am. That'd be great if you both came that way. I'm leaving the house for the morning but will be back by lunch. Let me know how things work out. LoriLee (talk) 12:04, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Yep, there's a 4:40 and a 6:40, if I understand. We'll play it by ear regarding which one to try to hit. If the edit-a-thon is rolling and we don't want to leave earlier, then I'll get you guys dinner before sending you back :). LoriLee (talk) 12:22, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

See my page for details. Awadewit (talk) 14:18, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

You'll be reimbursed for your shuttle tickets, at the cost of $30 total for purchasing them ahead of time. Adrianne purchased her return ticket for 4:40. Be sure to bring receipts with you to the event. See you tomorrow morning! LoriLee (talk) 19:43, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Glad to hear it! See you tomorrow. LoriLee (talk) 23:18, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

WP:USCITY

Surely there's some room for compromise here. As I see it, Rambot created a mess, and I am attempting to clean it up. The guideline says, "If a coordinate (latitude and longitude) is included in the infobox, remove any existing article coordinate from this section." I'm not saying coordinates aren't important, but I happen to support this guideline. When the coordinates are already available in the infobox and at the top of the page, they shouldn't be repeated again. Highways and neighboring communities can be easily verified from a roadmap. An inline cite is only necessary if the fact is challenged or likely to be challenged. Are you challenging my assertions about the location of Alger, Ohio and other United States settlements? —Stepheng3 (talk) 16:46, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Hello, Nyttend. You have new messages at Stepheng3's talk page.
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Thanks!

	Children's Museum Edit-a-Thon Rockstar
	Thank you for going through such effort to make it out to the Children's Museum of Indianapolis Backstage Pass & Edit-a-Thon. We really appreciate your help in getting important museum resources on Wikipedia to share with the world. It was also great to finally meet you; I look forward to continuing to work together. Thank you so much! LoriLee (talk) 23:21, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Antwerp

Look, I don't know what your problem with this is, but it is pretty ridiculous, don't you think? We don't remove unsourced information just because it's unsourced (or we would have long deleted most of Wikipedia); we remove it when there are serious concerns as to its accuracy. Now, if you have serious concerns as to the accuracy of the passage I've added, you are welcome to post them on the talk page. If I had the book I used for this, I would have obviously already added the source, but it is in the library which I don't visit often, and I don't remember the title. However, a quick survey of available google books confirms my information indirectly, which makes me wonder even more why you are so insistent on deleting it.

As for the rest of the text being attributed to the same source, with all due respect, that is not obvious at all. Since it's an offline source, I cannot verify it, nor am I willing to take your word for it (same way you are not willing to take my word for the passage I've added). Surely there's a more productive way to deal with the situation than deleting the passages we don't like?—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); August 23, 2011; 13:25 (UTC)

Our citation policy requires citations for anything that is challenged or is likely to be challenged. Since I am unable to verify the source you used, please consider my citation requests as such challenge and source them accordingly. I obviously cannot attribute the sentences which I perceive as unsourced to the source you used, because I don't have access to it, so that job falls onto you.

Also, you have not addressed your removal of the information I added. Do you have good reasons to believe it is factually wrong? If not, I suggest you leave it there to be referenced later (perhaps not even by me!). Best,—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); August 23, 2011; 16:08 (UTC)

Glendale, Iowa

Knowing that you deal with questions of a geographical nature; perhaps you could help me locate where Glendale,Iowa was circa 1841. it is referred to in the article Charles F. Shoemaker, a former Commandant of the Coast Guard. Glendale shows up in several references used in writing the article but I have not been able to pinpoint a location. As far as I can tell it either doesn't exist anymore, has been renamed or annexed into another city. If you have the time and inclination could you give me an assist with at least the county that Glendale was located in? Cuprum17 (talk) 18:09, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Deletion of Cadogan Tate page

Dear Nyttend

I am completely new to Wikipedia and would really appreciate your help.

I work for Cadogan Tate. I believe a page on Wikipedia that contained a description of Cadogan Tate's services was deleted by you:

10:49, 14 April 2011 Nyttend (talk | contribs) deleted "Cadogan Tate" ‎ (Expired PROD, concern was: lacks significant coverage in 3rd party sources. Claims of "worlds largest specialized moving company" are not referenced at all.)

I think Wikipedia is an amazing resource and I am keen for the Company to be listed with a full and accurate description of the service the Company offers. Please could you advise me what we would need to do to have the page reinstated?

I do apologise if I have contacted you in the wrong way. If so please could you advise me where I should be applying for reinstating of the page?

Thank you in advance for your help with this.

With kind regards

Zach

Cadogantate (talk) 10:08, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Pennsylvania townships

I realize that category talk pages are not the usual place for discussions, but I think this is the best place for this discussion. It covers all of the townships in Pennsylvania. There has been much discussion lately about how township names in Pennsylvania should be titled. Some go for X Township, Pennsylvania. Others want X Township, Y County, Pennsylvania. Of course there are many Washington Townships in Pennsylvania so they and others like it will need to include the county name in the title. The townships in question are the unique ones like Horton Township and Plunketts Creek Township. I think it is best to limit this discussion to Pennsylvania. If other wikiprojects want to do it differently that is fine. The status of townships vary greatly from state to state.

• The original place the subject came up is Talk:Horton Township, Elk County, Pennsylvania
• A broader discussion of the topic is here Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (geographic names)
• The Category talk:Townships in Pennsylvania by county link. Gerry D (talk) 13:19, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

NRHP discussion

Hi, I noticed that you are active in the NRHP WikiProject, and I was hoping that you would like to make a comment on a discussion going on there. You don't have to, but it would be greatly appreciated. The discussion is at WT:NRHP#Numbers in NRHP county lists. Thank you. Theking17825 16:21, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Ohio politicians

Hello, I've notice that you are also from Ohio. I was wondering if you would help to recreate pages pertaining to seven Ohio politicians that were recently deleted. All current members of the Ohio General Assembly are accounted for except for these seven. It would be greatly appreciated. I'm a student of history at Wittenberg University, and I think it is a viable thing to have on wikipedia. Thanks! WittTigers (talk) 17:56, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

September 2011 Newsletter for WikiProject United States

The September 2011 issue of the WikiProject United States newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.

 
--Kumioko (talk) 02:52, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Regarding an image you uploaded to Commons

Hello Nyttend, a couple issues with an image you uploaded to Commons, File:Wells Fargo and Company Express Building.jpg, have been brought up here. Any input is appreciated. Regards, The Utahraptor^Talk/_Contribs 16:44, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

More Bloomington photos

Thanks for the photos! That's an amazing level of coverage, and of precision in captions... I remember hearing that the All Saints' was somewhere in that area back when I was a student myself, but I never got around to go and see them at that time. As to Bloomingpedia, I used it on occasions, but have not had a chance to contribute.

I have been mostly posting out-of-town photos too. Should post some of my more recent B-ton photos too, but it will be a while till I get around to that. -- Vmenkov (talk) 03:23, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

You are quite right that the exact coordinates - allowing one to identify the street address make a photograph potentially much more useful. I wish there was a tool on the Commons to easily add coordinates to images - something like what's available on Google's Picasa, or on Panoramio. In any event, whenever you'd like me to add the coordinates to a particular photo where I have neglected to do so, you are welcome to ask. You can ask on my talk page, or you can just make an edit to the photo's description, and make a comment in the "edit summary" line - I probably will see it on my watchlist some time down the line.

I should check on the History Center - I have passed by this building so many times, but never got around to actually visit. -- Vmenkov (talk) 17:07, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Re: churches. Thinking of it, yes, I must have a few local church photos around. I may fire up Commonist and try to go through old directories and upload some pictures later this week, but I can't promise to provide good captions or exact coordinates for each one, as it's may be just too time-consuming.

Thanks for your words about the Yangshan Quarry DYK. I usually propose an illustration when I make a DYK entry, but of course the photos don't always get chosen to actually go to the DYK list on the main page. Some of the following may have had my photos, such as Bixi (tortoise), Liujiaxia Dam, Linxia City (or maybe it was Linxia County), Sandouping... I ought to write a good article about Bixie some day too... I am certainly not short of pictures on that. -- Vmenkov (talk) 16:20, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

I went through my south-central Indiana photos, and have uploaded a few "ecclesiastical" photos that I happen to have from this area. Mostly to the usual B-ton and Monroe County churches categories, and also to commons:Category:St Francis Claire Catholic Church (this one is in Johnson County). -- Vmenkov (talk) 05:18, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

P.S. And also commons:Category:Dagom Gaden Tensung Ling Buddhist Monastery, although this is a different religion. -- Vmenkov (talk) 05:30, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Another batch is in, in case you still need 'em. Of course, what's a landmark and what's an eyesore is in the eyes of the beholder... -- Vmenkov (talk) 22:15, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

List of active separatist movements in Europe

hi - why did you revert [3] here? I've added the term "unrecognized" to the de facto states as all international law literature and reliable sources always identify and label self-proclaimed entities as "unrecognized". The term "de facto" does not mean much to an average person, it is a Latin term that is used only in jurisprudence and political science, hence a more common word, such as unrecognized, is needed in the description to help all readers gain a quick understanding of the issue. Addition of this one word does not make the description too long or hard to read. Meanwhile, I've also removed the self-published and unrealiable source of "nkr.am" as it does not represent an official or reliable point of view, nor are such websites cited for all other entries in the article. Wikipedia requires reliable sources, as we know, and this website is not such a source. Finally, the Cyprus description is totally not in line with other descriptions and that's why I changed it to be consistent. Not only does it need to spell out the full name of the de facto state, but needs to state that it is also a de facto state, and unlike others, it has partial/limited recognition (TRNC is recognized by Turkey, used to be recognized by a few other states, and has direct air flights to from different countries, including from US). Please take another look, I think the edits I've made only improve the readability and consistency of the article. Thanks. --Jurisdr1975 (talk) 18:22, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

I understand your position, thanks for clarifying. I agree with your view, and should have made it more obvious in the comments section and on the talk page. I appreciate your efforts. Cheers! --Jurisdr1975 (talk) 01:59, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

BTW, wanted to bug you a little more since we both edit the same article. :) The more I read the article, the more I see its problems, omissions and really being out of date. I have made some more edits, but there are tons of work ahead to make it trouble-free. I will be moving slowly, after doing research on each and every entry, starting from the top. I did some research on Azerbaijan and its NK region, and found that there is a Government-in-exile that lives in Baku - here are some reliable sources: [4], [5] and [6]. Should such a subcategory be added there then? Same it seems applies to Georgia in that region - they also have a government-in-exile for Abkhazia: [7], [8] and [9]. --Jurisdr1975 (talk) 03:37, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Low priority e-mail ping

Tiderolls 11:49, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

My Little Pony fansites

I tagged the article List of My Little Pony fansites as G11, because the tag itself states This article may meet Wikipedia's criteria for speedy deletion because it only promotes an entity, person or product and would require a fundamental rewrite in order to become encyclopedic (emphasis mine). Seeing as how one of the two sites listed has it's own article, this article seems to only serve to mention Ponychan. Was my logic flawed? Ishdarian 20:55, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

I'd say just slightly — the list is attempting to increase awareness of My Little Pony, but we accept that kind of attempt, since the same is true of other articles; for example, today's featured article is attempting to increase awareness of a battle in World War I. I don't see a good reason to say that the My Little Pony list is an attempt unduly to concentrate on Ponychan. A totally different question is the page itself: it's so small and discusses such a specific topic that it's probably not suited for a dedicated page; you might want to use the PROD process to have it deleted. I simply declined the speedy because I believe it not to be spam, not because I believe it to be a good topic for a Wikipedia page. Nyttend (talk) 00:59, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Alright. That makes sense. Thanks for the info! Ishdarian 04:28, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Wichita Northeast Magnet High School

Hi. I'm requesting input on a map discusion at Wichita Northeast Magnet High School#Maps. I feel that a map of the school district boundary map should be included in this article. Thanks. • Sbmeirow • Talk • 00:01, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

File:Praha, Dejvice - ulice Zikova (nataceni filmu G.I.Joe).jpg

Hello. It appears that you deleted the talk page for the File:Praha, Dejvice - ulice Zikova (nataceni filmu G.I.Joe).jpg, because supposedly the page does not exist, but as far as I can tell, the image still exists on Wikipedia. Since the image is still attached to the article G.I. Joe: The Rise of Cobra, I would like to re-add the image to WikiProject G.I. Joe, by putting the template {{WikiProject G.I. Joe}} back on the discussion page. Thanks! Fortdj33 (talk) 12:26, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

The image has never existed on Wikipedia: it was uploaded directly to Commons. Please don't categorise or otherwise tag Commons images here on Wikipedia. Nyttend (talk) 20:22, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Turkish copyright law

About File talk:NESRIN Ünügür.jpgetc.:, It's clear that, according to the Article 27 of the Turkish copyright law, its copyright has not expired (70 years). I only provide information. Takabeg (talk) 05:01, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

About recreating

Excuse me. I'd like to recreate a page similar to the previously deleted one, but I've got some information from news which makes the club noteworthy. Shall I begin the new article and could you please tell me how to do it? Thanks. NNU-2-TangJie (talk) 07:28, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Brandwashed: Tricks Companies Use to Manipulate Our Minds and Persuade Us to Buy

You have deleted the page that I have created by baselessly citing 'promotional'. The page was created in the style of other book pages with a neutral voice, dewey decimal & Library of Congress numbers as well as a references. If you are going to delete this page you might as well delete any page that references a book. Please explain why you chose to delete this entry and not the likes of Gladwell, Godin, Kawasaki, McCullough, Goodwin-Kearns, etc., all modern authors with pages similar to the one that was created.

Respectfully,

(Jededflynn1 (talk) 13:09, 21 September 2011 (UTC))

IP addresses with SP templates

Hello, lot of these ipsock|Vrghs jacob templates added which date back many months; thought I would try to clear them out, just hard to find a reason for a speedy. Regards (Crusoe8181 (talk) 12:03, 22 September 2011 (UTC)).

Rochester

Thanks for trying again. I was overruled the last time. Cheers!--Pubdog (talk) 00:39, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

GNIS

Hi! Let's look at your edit here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Lincoln_County,_Arkansas&diff=450175043&oldid=447691116

No it is not wrong. It is a community and a prison at the same time. I see a lack of familiarity with southern prison farms.

• The employees live on site. It is a place where "free world" people (people who are not incarcerated) live, and it is a distinct settlement. Prisoners also live there. But the point is that "free world" people live there too.
  • http://books.google.com/books?id=0S9IQTXjrpQC&pg=PA53&dq=%22Free+Line%22+Cummins&hl=en&ei=dO9yTduIFMyL0QHusoDFAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Free%20Line%22%20Cummins&f=false
• These farms often have post offices, recreational facilities, etc. While Cummins doesn't have a post office, Angola, LA and Parchman, MS do.
• Children live on the property! There are school buses that go to these prisons to drop kids off.
  • Look at this bus schedule, Nyttend. Where is #73 Penguin going? - it goes to "Prison" http://dpsd.k12.ar.us/Information/DocketSCAN-1.pdf

So the GNIS counts that as a "community". It is not making any mistakes. Cummins Unit can be both a prison and a community.

If you disagree with my response, then please respond within seven days.

WhisperToMe (talk) 20:23, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

"Either it's a community or it's not." - Things aren't black and white. Have you heard of Saudi Aramco compounds? They are all properties of companies, but they are communities since t.

Same with these southern prison farms. The housing is all owned by the state. Try telling someone in, say, "Angola, LA" that Angola is not a "community" - Or Parchman.

"If it's a community, it needs to have the state name attached unless it's on the AP list of well-known cities." - No, all that needs to be done is redirect the "community name" to the facility name. I.E. "Parchman, MS" redirects to "Mississippi State Pentientiary" - Likewise "Cummins, AR" redirects to "Cummins Unit"

"the rest of the article says nothing about the area in which the free people live, so it's entirely inappropriate (regardless of what you said on my talk page just now about the free people)"

That is not correct: The section "Composition" says "The prison includes the "Free Line," the prison residences for free world employees, including the warden, several prison officials, and their families. In history some prisoners worked as house servants in the Free Line." Diff

"Moreover, the intro for the article says that it's a prison: it does not say that it's any sort of community. " - Then all I have to do is say "employees live on site" and it's all taken care of.

"Better idea: try to write a separate article about the area where the free people live. " = The thing is, it's a paradox. One one hand there is a "community" but at the same time it is an inherent part of the institution.

Even though "Angola, LA" is a community, everyone living at Angola, LA is either an employee of the prison, or a dependent. You cannot separate the prison from the community, and you cannot separate the community from the prison.

"Articles are listed on templates based on the content found in the article." - I am aware of the fact that it's based on the content of the article

I think the best step now is to start a discussion at WikiProject United States.

WhisperToMe (talk) 02:36, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

The US GNIS counts select prisons as "populated places"

On top of that highway maps count them as populated places too.

"Parchman" appears as a populated place on Mississippi highway maps. The place "Parchman" is the entry of the prison

The issue will not be dropped.

WhisperToMe (talk) 02:41, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Please continue the discussion at: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_United_States#Prisons_and_populated_places - As an FYI, all of the GNIS pages I found for the three explicitly identify them as "populated places" - Also I answered your point about splitting the articles WhisperToMe (talk) 02:51, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

In case nobody responds on the USA Wikiproject page, what I'll probably do is for the moment continue to ask for inclusion of Angola and Parchman on their respective county templates, but not object to the removal of Cummins on the Lincoln County AR template (The current state highway maps aren't showing Cummins as a place) - But I'll see if I can find older Lincoln County, AR maps and see if they indicate Cummins to be a populated place WhisperToMe (talk) 08:12, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

DYK for James Elliott Farm

Orlady (talk) 10:39, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Suspect source

I'm having an issue with a source in the articles Anna, Georgia, Bethany, Georgia and Crestview, Georgia. Aside from the fact that the articles are very undersourced, they all share the same source. The same exact page. All cite the same book, page 489. There are other articles using that same source and same page. I find it highly suspect that all this info about all these different communities is all from the same page in one book. The editor that wrote these articles has left Wikipedia, due in large part to her frustration that her WP:OR was being removed from articles. (Yes, I did offer to help her) AGF only goes so far until common sense overrides it. Believing that this one page contains everything being claimed doesn't seem plausible. Niteshift36 (talk) 13:06, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

• You missed the point. I am not questioning the book's reliability. Obviously the citation is incorrect because they can't all be the same page. If the citation is wrong, then it is essentially unsourced. Can you follow that citation and find what is being claimed? No, you can't. The second part of the problem is that the editor has a proven history of making things up via SYNTH and OR. Then these (and other) articles all show up with a jacked up source? You don't see a problem here? Niteshift36 (talk) 13:14, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

• Attack? What attack? Please show me anything in that response that was an attack. Niteshift36 (talk) 13:17, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

• I didn't question your actions. I asked a couple of rhetorical questions, none of which indicated that you had taken a wrong action. The only thing that I did, correctly, identify as wrong was your understanding of the point. Why point out that you didn't add the material in question? I made it perfectly clear that another editor did. I was contacting you because you are an admin and I thought you'd do something like, oh, I don't know...offer some guidance. I thought admins were supposed to be a good source for that sort of thing. Instead, you've made accusations about something that doesn't exist. I apologogize for wasting your time. Niteshift36 (talk) 23:22, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Kearsarge, California (ghost town)

Please ask next time before you erase an entry. This is not a duplicate of Kearsarge, California but another, earlier, settlement, a mining camp in the Sierra Nevada Mountains. You might have noticed this if you had read the text of the two entries.Asiaticus (talk) 21:26, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

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Allison Culture

Allison-LaMotte is thought by some to have been from around AD 1000 and became the Vincennes Culture according to one interpretation. Another view is that it was Hopewell, associated with Weaver (also having, in Winters's words, borrowing ceramics. (Weaver Ware, how-ever, is currently thought to be Late Woodland - See Holt and Feathers in McJA, spring 2003.) Sites include Reed-Walker, Dougherty-Monroe, Stoner, Bumble Bee, and Lowe Mound. It is reported to have had circular villages (Winters 1963). "The Allison-LaMotte Tradition, originally defined by Winters (1963) [Winters, H. D. The Riverston Culture. R of Invest. 13, ISM] for the Wabash Valley, . . . . is generally characterized by oval structures, stamped ceramics, Lowe Cluster points, and increasing evidence for plant cultivation (Kellar 1983:50) [Kellar, J. H. An Introduction to the Prehistory of Indiana]." (I-69 Tier 1 EIS Archaeological Records Check and Southwestern Indiana GIS Archaeological Databas, by T. C. Bear et al., 2002:8-9).)

• Excavations at the Stoner and Lowe sites by D Stephens - 1975 - Illinois State Museum
• Cahokia and the Hinterlands: Middle Mississippian Cultures of the Midwest by Thomas E. Emerson, R. Barry Lewis, Illinois Historic Preservation Agency
• 'A Preposed rehistoric Cultural Sequence for a Section of the Valley of the West Fork of the White River in Soutwestern Indiana," Tennessee Anthropologist 8(1):68-94 by C. H. Tomak.

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