Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan/Archive/December 2006

Talk & archives for WP Japan
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Wikipedia:Vernacular scripts

vote on the use of scripts--D-Boy 01:58, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

New requested photo template

You can now use {{ReqphotoinJapan}} for photos of specific locations in Japan. Please make heavy use of it. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 05:23, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Nice! One question, though. Is it advantageous to have separate categories for all the prefectures, or would it be better to have them go into a single category? I probably have photos of 35 or 40 prefectures (and no doubt some editors like Jpatokal have more), but it's difficult to track that many categories. It might be possible to put a pipe in the category and sort a single category by prefecture. (I wish I knew more about this.) Also, if there were a way to put them in an article that people can put on a watch list, it would be a good wake-up call. As far as I know, watching a category only shows changes made by editing the category, not changes made by putting articles in the category. Regardless, the template is a good tool for calling for photos. Fg2 06:58, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I used the category mainly because the template it's based on already existed and just needed some tweaking to be used for this purpose. I'm not sure how to make it into an article without a lot more work. As for separate cats for each prefecture, I think it's very advantageous as it allows people to easily find the section they can help with. Given the number of requests likely for each category (Ehime has about 80 or so), I think it's best to sort them this way so the pages don't become too overwhelming with the number of possible requests. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 09:11, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Alas, this may be the best solution possible within the software's limitations. Thanks for creating the templates and categories. Fg2 03:56, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Adding article to WikiProject

Hello! I have joined the project some days ago, and I'm still learning the ropes, so please could anyone help me on this? I couldn't find what to do to add an article to the project. Am I supposed to just add the banner to the talkpage of the article, or should I add it to some category? Thanks in advance, asdfih 11:10, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi Asdfih, Welcome to the project! You can copy and paste {{WikiProject Japan}} (including the double braces) to the talk page of the article. That puts a box in saying that it's part of the Japan project. If you know another project that also applies, you're welcome to put their banner in also. For example, many people are also in the biography project. Fg2 11:14, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Help with Serial Experiments Lain

Serial Experiments Lain is currently going through FAC and faces two problems: _ It needs Kanji and romanisation for the names of a few characters. _ It needs profecient copyediting by external experienced editors. Any help greatly appreciated.--SidiLemine 16:23, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

categories and people (mostly)

I recently purged several articles from various categories within Category:Japanese people by prefectural origin which were also a subcategory (usually, a city of the prefecture). This has prompted a few issues, listed below. I'm not sure on how to deal with everything, so I'm polling for suggestions.

• Most categories in Category:People by city in Japan need to be renamed in accordance with the MoS.

• I made the WP:CFD renaming request.

• We have categories for people from historical provinces. Per a discussion on my talk page, I think that these need to be categorized from the top of Category:Japanese people, besides the current categorization within prefectures which roughly correspond to the same areas. I'd like to pick a good name for it, though.

• Suggestions for name of the category. None of these strike me as very good. I'm sure there are better suggestions

• Category:People by historical province in Japan ?
• Category:People by defunct districts and provinces in Japan ?
• Category:People by historical domains in Japan ?

• I also think that Category:Japanese people by prefectural origin and Category:People by city in Japan should be consistent, so naming the first category Category:People by prefecture in Japan is my recommendation. It also gets around the sticky fact that some non-Japanese people have been born in prefectures (George William Casey Jr. is one who comes to mind).

• Finally (and, least likely to gain any semblance of concensus), are the "by city" categories that useful? At the very least, I'd like to see them limited to cities which already have categories of their own. (Mostly, the designated cities). Categorizing people, stations, mountains, whatever, by small locales when the category is just a direct descendant subcat of the "in/by prefecture" cat seems to be a bit over the top. When there is a city category to group the "people from X city", "stations in X city", etc then it beomes more acceptable. It also sidesteps a problem of Gappei, where someone born in a small town near an existing city would be categorized as from the city (after the city swallows up the small town) when it was not necessarily true. Sorry to ramble on a bit.

Also sorry to dump so much stuff to think about in one message. Time to wrap it up. Neier 11:17, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I think "province" is better than "defunct provinces and districts" or "domains", as it's the closest to prefectures, and the most definable and stable. Unlike districts or domains, of which there were hundreds, which constantly moved and changed, the provinces were relatively stable, and only numbered in the tens. That said, I'm really not sure if I fully understand the purpose or usefulness of these categories. Some historical figures' geographical (political) origins are of importance to the events surrounding them (e.g. Saigo Takamori with Satsuma), but most aren't. Just my two cents; ultimately, I'm sure that whatever is decided will be fine. LordAmeth 16:03, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

The article Provinces of Japan was formerly named "Old provinces of Japan"; the content makes it clear that the subject is not a present-day administrative division of the country. Likewise, the category names, if we adopt them, need not have "defunct" in them. I haven't thought through the issues to decide whether we need categories for provinces, domains, and/or prefectures, so I don't have an opinion right now. But at least prior to the Edo period, history books appear to describe people as being from a province rather than a domain. There were, too, the great cities, which at various times were not part of domains. Fg2 21:43, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Albums part of this WikiProject

I am currently checking every of my almost 3000 watchlisted items, and notice there are a lot of songs that are tagged as belonging to WikiProject Albums (or Songs) but not to WikiProject Japan (talking about japanese albums and singles, of course). Does anyone object to tag them with this WikiProject's tag as well? I have tagged some, but decided to wait just in case the WikiProject Japan does not want to take care of albums and songs as well. -- ReyBrujo 20:31, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Tagging them should be fine. It's likely that someone just hasn't gotten to them yet. So, have at it. (^_^) ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 00:10, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

National Treasures

I have created two new categories, Category:National treasures of Japan and Category:Living National Treasures (Japan). Please help me populate them. (A category already exists for National treasures of South Korea, though I'm really not sure which other countries have a similar distinction; right now South Korea and Japan are the only members of the brand-new Category:National treasures.) LordAmeth 23:16, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I used to live down the road from one of Japan's living national treasures, but I can't remember his name off the top of my head. He was known for making the gigantic rice straw dragons (as well as things like sandals and little figures, also out of rice straw). Some of his dragons were several meters long. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 00:12, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

He also makes shimenawa. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 00:32, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Request for mediation

A user has filed a request for mediation related to the article Toyotomi Hideyoshi. Fg2 10:53, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Is there a way to help with this? Or is it up to the Mediation Committee, and you're just posting it for the sake of letting us know? LordAmeth 18:15, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I was just posting it for information purposes. It was an edit war (and, since it was rejected, will probably continue to be). Of course, help is always welcome, but for some edit wars, the best help is to give it time for the participants to cool off... Fg2 02:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

The case was rejected by the Mediation Committee. Dekimasu 01:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Second request for mediation

See Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Toyotomi Hideyoshi 2 Fg2 08:56, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

The second request was also rejected. Fg2 07:34, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Notice of polls: Ryūkyū/Ryukyu & Ogasawara Islands/Bonin Islands

Please vote in the Ryukyu vs. Ryūkyū section of the WP:MOS-JA talk page, to resolve inconsistencies within WP:MOS-JA. The following 2 polls are now ongoing:

1. Poll: "Ogasawara Islands" instead of "Bonin Islands"
2. Poll: "Ryūkyū" instead of "Ryukyu"

The polls end Dec. 13. There's only a few days left, so please hurry.--Endroit 19:36, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Katakana for Ainu

I've added a table of extended (and non-extended) katakana that are used mainly in transcription of the Ainu language here. Can someone verify that each character corresponds to the description, as I can't see the extended characters on my computer. The appearance column gives an example and a description of a workaround, and thus may appear slighly different from the true character, though perfectly recognizable. There's also a few characters missing codes, as I can't forcibly input them on this piece of crap! I'll do it on a different computer if I get the chance.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  08:14, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

They look ok to me Fg2 08:58, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I checked over some stuff when I got home and apparently the number of characters has changed (recently?) so I had to change the chart anyways. Ubuntu displays the Unicode instead of just a box so it's easy to check from here. I wish the <small> tag wasn't so... 微妙. You can barely tell that the last character in itak (イタク) is smaller, and it's even worse in IE.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  12:39, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Japanese money

The "article" on Japanese money is currently a disambiguation page, linking only to yen, Japanese mon, and ryō. I am amazed to discover that there is no single article discussing the full history of the emergence and development of the monetary economy in Japan. I know that much of the information can be found scattered across a number of pages, including these, rice brokers, and a number of others. But as of right now, Economy of Japan is purely contemporary information, giving no early modern or pre-modern history, Bank of Japan the same, and Yen seems to be largely if not exclusively a discussion of the coins themselves from a numismatics perspective, not a "history of economics" one. What do others think? Is this something worth pursuing, and is anyone interested in helping? Thank you. LordAmeth 23:48, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Maybe History of Japanese money would be a better place? Most people searching for "Japanese money" are probably just looking for "yen", though there is certainly a lot to be said about the history of the hole-y coin. I have a huge chart in one of my classrooms detailing the historical value and shape of the coins, including how they were once used to measure shoes (tabi). Too bad it's not GFDL.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  01:43, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Just created Scrip of Edo period Japan, primarily from the Japanese Wikipedia. Fg2 04:18, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Nanpa & hosts, scouts

In my random rovings I came across the mentioned Nanpa article. I prodded it, because it seemed nothing more than a vanity article on a minor Japanese expression and not really worth an actual article. The prod was removed by an user raising a very valid point: nanpa should be mentioned as part of a larger article dealing with the japanese (male) host culture and street scouts (see talk page). I'm fairly new to wiki so I'm not sure how to flag articles for further work by an expert, but this is one such article. I'm bringing it up here because I'm afraid otherwise it'll just drft back into anonimity and remain the dictionary entry it is now; and because I think an enlarged article could be a fairly valuable addition to wiki. Any volunteers willing to work on this one? I'm afraid I'm not nearly qualified enough. TomorrowTime 14:02, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I removed the deletion proposal, but didn't participate in the discussion that followed. I know nothing about host culture, so I can't comment on whether it has a close connection to it, but the word seems very broad in scope and my guess is that it deserves an article on its own.

You've come to a good place, though, to bring up the topic for discussion. Articles, once started, can be improved over time, but if deleted, will in many cases be created again no better than they were to start with. Also, there are alternatives to deletion, such as moving to the Wiktionary, which is appropriate if the article is no more than a dictionary definition, and there's no hope of making it more. Bringing an article to the attention of the community gives it a chance to improve, sometime. And, I'm fond of saying, "there is no deadline." Fg2 01:55, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Trivia sections (continued)

References: || Manual of style (avoid trivia) | Essay on trivia | WP Military history Popular Culture guideline || Fg2 03:52, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

It has now been archived, but I think we should continue our discussion of how to treat trivia/popular culture sections in articles. The current proposal (written by Neier) is:

• Many articles which are under the scope of WikiProject Japan naturally lend themselves to in popular culture sections, due to the growing popularity of manga, anime, and video games around the world. In most cases simply mentioning this fact in the article is sufficient, as a list of every trivial appearance of a location or personality contributes very little overall to the article.

Dekimasu 03:32, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Here is my suggestion:

Many of the subjects of Japan-related articles in Wikipedia influence popular culture, for example by appearing in or being referenced by manga, anime, or video games. It is therefore sometimes appropriate to include a section in the article with a title such as "In popular culture".

However, such sections should only be included if the subject has had a significant influence on popular culture. Furthermore, these sections should only include items which have affected the subject of the article directly, or the public perception of the subject. In particular, they should not become a comprehensive list of every manga or anime which references the subject, for the reasons given in the policy on avoiding trivia.

The rule for inclusion is: information in an article should add to the reader's understanding of the subject, not the popular work referencing it.

Comments:

• I tried to say what should be added, as well as what should not, and to incorporate some of what's already been said in the discussion. I avoided referring to things such as manga as trivia, as in an article which is closely related to manga or popular culture, it will clearly be significant. Also, this draft could probably be shortened and reworded to make it clearer. -- Grgcox 18:00, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for stating the rule for inclusion so precisely. However, I think we should discourage the creation of such sections entirely. The person who creates the section is likely to have good intentions, but subsequent visitors to the page latch on to the fact that the article already has trivia and add some more of their own. I think we should go further and state that the information shouldn't be included unless it can be reasonably incorporated into the main text of the article. Dekimasu 02:22, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments. I know that the contents of "in popular culture" sections are often trivia, but I want to say that I don't think they are necessarily trivia. To be clear, the examples in the lists deleted from the Hokkaido and Shibuya articles (from the discussion here last month, now archived) are all hopelessly trivial and deserved to go. However, I would support the inclusion of a few sentences on Kita no kuni kara TV series in the Hokkaido article, for example, because I believe that it has had a significant influence on the image of Hokkaido in the popular imagination in Japan.

I'm not saying "a little trivia is OK", because if some trivia is included lots of people will want to add their own favourite anime or whatever. On the other hand, if there is good content in an article, it should not be deleted on the grounds that keeping it would encourage bad content to be added. Also, the policy on trivia sanctions the inclusion of "in popular culture" sections, and I don't see a reason to impose a stricter policy than that. -- Grgcox 09:37, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I withdraw my objection. Can we change the wording to "or has significantly affected the public perception of the subject" ("significantly altered" sounds fine too) to make the intent as clear as possible? I forsee this rule getting cited often and contributors being unwilling to allow that the hometowns of anime characters have little effect on public perception. Dekimasu 11:38, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

I am wondering if we should continue this conversation by making a proposal at the MOS-JP page. Dekimasu 08:27, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Host and hostess bars

Not sure if this is the right place to ask, but it seems like it. I'm aware that they have hostess bars in other countries (ex: Korea) but not sure how prevalent they are. In Japan, they are big part of (male) life - socially and as a part of doing business. I've been working on the hostess bar article, but it still needs a lot of work. Currently, the article is very Japan-specific. I'm kind of surprised that there's been not much work done on it, seeing a it seems such a big part of "salaryman life", and is really quite different from Western norms. Anyone have any thoughts on this? -- Cheers, Drcwright 04:25, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I personally think this should be a separate culture article. Make it clear that it's specifically about Japan from the start, to prevent any sort of bias from forming, and make it easier to disambiguate general categories like "hostess bar", which may be something completely different in another part of the world. I'd like to see Japanese hostess and Japanese host articles focusing on the cultural aspect (a large part of some hostesses work is as a date companion away from the "bar", and the whole recruitment process, lifestyle, and relationships of hosts and hostesses really deserves a mention, even though it has nothing to do with the "bar" itself), and the culture that is being built around them to fit the flamboyant, rich lifestyle that is implied (by some of them at least). I'd say I have quite a bit of knowledge about the subject; I find the documentaries fascinating, but I don't really have any sources to work off of so I think I'll just have to leave it to eventuality for the moment.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  10:30, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I lean towards them focussing on Japan as well. I'm looking for more sources to improve the article. I also think that what s most important to this article is the socio-cultural aspect of them (rather than just describing the different services/atmospheres found at each). That is what I (and I assume most Westerners) find fascinating about them. This could/should be a robust article. I'll continue to see what I can do. Drcwright 01:35, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Tsushima Islands

Hi guys! I'm not part of WikiProject Japan, but I decided to heavily expand the Tsushima Island article, with citations, etc. But my frustration is that there are many overlapping areas of focus between the Tsushima Island and Tsushima City articles & that basically Tsushima City is the island because it lies over the entire island. I could understand this status if the island article would focus on geography & climate while the city would focus on culture, demographics, and economy. But this is not the case, so I made a merge request at Tsushima Island discussion page, but so far I've seen no reply. (Wikimachine 18:22, 16 December 2006 (UTC))

The island article should be about the island, its area, geology, things like that. The city article should be about the government, the history of the government, the population, education, transportation, that sort of thing. Is that helpful? Fg2 22:06, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

That's what I think, too, but I'm suggesting that, since Tsushima Island article already covers demograhpics, culture, religion, economy, etc., -more extensively than the Tsushima City article, why not merge? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wikimachine (talk • contribs) 22:31, 16 December 2006 (UTC).

Not sure what the goal of merging them is. I think they got confounded during an edit war, when somebody found it advantageous to put material in one article because the other was hotly contested. Now that the edit war is long over, it might be a good time to sort them out. Fg2 00:48, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Toyota Corona

Would any members of this project help me make this into a good, or a featured article candidate?? Advice and help is much appreciated. Thanks, --SunStar Net^talk 00:49, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Daisuke Matsuzaka

Can someone come add IPA and an authoritative pseudo-Anglicized pronunciation to Daisuke Matsuzaka? It's driving me crazy that people change it based on different English-language sources (Yahoo transcribes it one way, Red Sox a second way, I would make it a third, etc.). See also Talk there. Thanks in advance, PhilipR 03:16, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

simply, [daisɯke matsɯzaka]; more precisely, [da̟i̞süke̞ ma̟t͡süza̟ka̟] --Isorhiza 07:49, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Japanese dinosaurs

Wikipedia's coverage of Japanese dinosaurs is virtually non-existant, despite quite a few dinosaur genera being known from fossils in Japan. Is there anyone here living in Japan or who has visited Japan who has photos of Japanese dinosaurs which Wikipedia might use on Japanese dinosaur articles? It would be great if we had photographs for articles like Nipponosaurus. Firsfron of Ronchester 04:57, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

It's good that you asked here. You can also include the photo request template by copying {{ReqphotoinJapan}} from the screen into the talk page of the article. Personally, I don't think I have any photos of reconstructions, bones, footprints or the other things that museums often display, but if I'm in the vicinity of such a museum I'll be on the lookout for artifacts to add to articles. Thanks for calling it to our attention! Fg2 07:13, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestions; I will certainly try the request template. And if you take any photos at Japanese museums, please please please do add them to our neglected articles. Thanks again Fg2. Firsfron of Ronchester 21:09, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Requesting help from this wiki-project

I've started working on List of haunted locations, trying to source entries and broaden the world-view. Currently that article has no information about haunted locations in Japan and someone asked about this on the talk page and mentioned that "Japan is widely considered to be the most haunted place on earth". Would someone from this project mind heading over to that article with references and creating a section on Japan? I'd be grateful. ~ ONUnicorn^{(Talk|Contribs)} 18:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Widely considered to be the most haunted place on Earth? By whom? There is a lot of youkai presence, but I'm not sure that constitutes haunting, per se. "Haunting" would have to be by the Japanese equivalent of ghosts, and the only such location I can think of at the moment would be a well in Himeji castle. Perhaps your querry would be better located over at the Japanese Mythology Project? TomorrowTime 18:44, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your response. I didn't know there was a Japanese Mythology project. I'll ask there. The links to Yūrei, Youkai, and Himeji castle have helped some already. As for who considers it to be the mosts haunted place on Earth... you might want to ask the person who made that comment on the Haunted locations talk page. ~ ONUnicorn^{(Talk|Contribs)} 20:10, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Correct page name for Fukuyama, Hiroshima?

I would appreciate knowledgeable input on this query, detailed on the Discussion page. -- Thanks, Deborahjay 16:33, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Battle of Leyte Gulf FAR

Battle of Leyte Gulf has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. Sandy (Talk) 22:04, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Court rankings

Did this system remain in place through the later periods? The concept of court rankings by number (e.g. "a courtier of the fifth rank") remains even as late as the Edo period, but I would imagine that things had changed from the classical period... or maybe they didn't? Any further, deeper information one can provide on the rankings would be most appreciated. (Is there another article hiding somewhere on Wikipedia that I am simply failing to locate?) LordAmeth 02:27, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

The Japanese articles ja:位階 and ja:勲等 describe ranks and decoration s used in the Edo period. As far as I can tell, there are no equivalent English articles on the subject, and I don't know if official translations of these titles exist, or where to find them. -- Grgcox 09:51, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Also see ja:官位 Fg2 10:14, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

The articles mention that ja:位階 and ja:勲等 continue after Meiji period and partly until now. --Isorhiza 09:45, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Cool. Thanks guys. If the Reading Tutor website ever gets back up and running, I'll take a stab at translating those articles, likely into a single English article if appropriate. LordAmeth 01:02, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Kenzaburo Oe

I'm translating the starred Russian article on Oe into English. It's far better than the current English one, which is more of a glorified stub, really. I'm planning on just switching them out in toto and just wanted to give everyone a heads up. I mentioned this on the Oe talk page, but no one replied, so I'm assuming no one is very interested. Madler 15:06, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good. We look forward to the results. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 21:02, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Barring unforeseen circumstances, I should be done by mid-January. Madler 23:10, 26 December 2006 (UTC)