Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan/Archive/November 2012

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Translation of tomb shapes

For User:Bamse/Japanese_Imperial_tombs I'd need good translations of tomb shapes as found for instance in sub pages of this or directly in the tables at ja:天皇陵. The shapes are:

• 上円下方: jōen kahō: round-top-square-bottom type: round mound in the center and a square mound at the base, runden Steinhügel auf rechteckiger Basis!
• 前方後円: zenpō kōen: keyhole-shaped!; square-front, round-back
• 八角: hakkaku: eight-sided!
• 多宝塔: tahōtō!
• 石造五輪塔: stone gorintō!
• 石造宝篋印塔: stone hōkyōintō!
• 石造十三重塔, 石造九重塔: 13/9-storey stone pagoda!
• 円墳: enfun: circular mound, circular-typed, tumulus
• 円丘: knoll, hillock?
• 山形: mountain?
• 方丘: square!
• 方形: square-typed
• 八角丘: eight-sided hill / octagon hill
• 円形: round (again)?
• 方形堂: square temple / square hall?

Any suggestions are appreciated. bamse (talk) 22:53, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

See Kofun, [1], and [2]. Oda Mari (talk) 07:56, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. bamse (talk) 19:53, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Did you see this page? Looking at the image of this page, it's definitely Tahōtō. Oda Mari (talk) 08:35, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Indeed that looks like a tahōtō. bamse (talk) 20:56, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

I've made some suggestions above. I, Jethrobot ^{drop me a line} (note: not a bot!) 22:21, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Tomb (again) names

Sorry for another question on Imperial tombs. Are the tomb names such as unebiyama no hitsujisaru no mihodo no i no e no misasagi (畝傍山西南御陰井上陵) translatable or should they just be left in romaji? I noticed some unusual (at least to me) readings there. Also several names end in no e no misasagi (上陵). I found that 上 can also refer to the emperor. Wouldn't that be doubled then as 上陵 = Emperor's Imperial tomb? bamse (talk) 22:48, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

I think the name can be divided like this 畝傍山/西南/御陰/井上/陵 (unebiyama no/hitsujisaru no/mihodo no/ino eno/misasagi). Unebiyama no is Mount unebi's. Hitsujisaru no is the direction sheep/saru (southwest). Mihodo no is shadowy, ino eno is above the well and misasagi/tomb. Oda Mari (talk) 08:56, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

I think it is 畝傍山/西南/御陰井/上陵. 御陰井 is a place name, see ja:ほと#有名な事例. As for the first question, I think the name should be left in romaji. An English translation can be added to the name like Imperial tomb at mihodo no i in south west of unebiyama. I don't know whether上陵 can be combined to mean Imperial tomb, but it is likely.

As for the unusual readings Hitsujisaru(西南), see Earthly Branches#Directions. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 09:25, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Sorry,bamse. Phoenix7777 is right. Oda Mari (talk) 17:12, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

I was not necessarily wrong. There was a well. See the 6th image from the top and see this. Oda Mari (talk) 17:43, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps these places should be added to Wikipedia:WikiProject Japan/Place names with unusual readings if they aren't already there? ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 16:11, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. It seems more complicated than I thought. Perhaps for the time being I stay with romaji (and kanji) only, which is also what I have seen commonly used in sources and wikipedia articles. bamse (talk) 20:58, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

• I wonder if anybody uses Template:Japanese script needed?   LittleBen (talk) 09:39, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Not sure I understand your question or how it relates to this topic, but apparently this template is being used. bamse (talk) 20:17, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

• Thanks, it's not very clear how to find such templates, and Template:Japanese is not very well documented—it doesn't explain that to display the template you add {{Japanese}} as is described at the top of the category that you mention. LittleBen (talk) 02:31, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

{{Japanese}} redirects to {{Japanese script needed}}, i.e. the two are basically the same and you could add either {{Japanese}} or {{Japanese script needed}} with the same effect. This usage of templates is very standard for wikipedia templates, so not sure that it needs to be documented in detail in the template documentation. There are some help pages for using templates at Help:Template and Help:A quick guide to templates which might interest you. bamse (talk) 16:12, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

• Thanks. A description of how to use the template, and what it does, has just been added. Will have to read up on templates, they seem to be generally poorly documented. LittleBen (talk) 20:46, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Alphabetical order is original redearch???

Hey guys. Do you have control over AKB48? Some editors are insisting that gojuon order is official and alphabetical order is original research. Seriously? Has wikipedia been taken over by wapanese? 182.249.242.158 (talk) 04:22, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

A little more detail, please. Are you talking about the lists of members? Boneyard90 (talk) 04:36, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Unless there is a specific reason for ordering non-alphabetically (such as the List of Japanese prefectures#List in ISO order), all lists should be either alphabetical order (see MOS:JA#Alphabetical order). ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 06:50, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

It looks like, in this case, there is a specific reason for listing the team members in gojuon order, and the article follows the direction of MOS:JA by explaining why they aren't listed in alphabetical order. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 06:54, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

It also looks like Moscowconnection is having a slight problem with policy, again.—Ryulong (琉竜) 11:43, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Wait, the member list has to follow gokuon order because the official website follows it? That's not what I call a valid reason. English Wikipedia is written for English readers and in English alphabet and tradition gokuon order just makes no sense. Also the article section titles does not need to be pink like on the official website. Pitke (talk) 18:02, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Pitke, there's no reason to not use English Alphabetic Order, since this is the English Wikipedia, while the official website is in Japanese. If a Japanese website uses Japanese ordering, then that is to be expected. -- 70.24.186.245 (talk) 07:54, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

cleanup

Can someone take a look at Aimer (Japanese singer)? Makings of a good article, but...--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 18:14, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

 Done - Hopefully it's more readable, but I had to remove a few un-referenced sentences which might have contained valid information, but I seriously could not decipher. Boneyard90 (talk) 07:33, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks-I thought about tackling it and my brain started bleeding.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 11:09, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Importance scale?

I can appreciate why Haiku in English might be included in the scope of this WikiProject, but why is it classified as "Mid-importance", the same as Japan's national epic? For that matter, why is The Tale of the Heike only "Mid-importance"? elvenscout742 (talk) 07:46, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Just reassess it. I already changed it. Prburley (talk) 10:57, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

I am sometimes also mystified by some of the importance-ratings, where modern comedians or pop singers can be given high or top-importance, and the arts or famous figures from antiquity are given mid- or low-importance, which may more reflect some editors' familiarity with a topic or bias. As to the articles you mention, I support the mid-importance rank of Haiku in English, because it has very little to do with Japan itself, either history or culture. What do Japanese people care about a foreign-language haiku? It is important only in that it reflects multi-national extension of a Japanese art, which is separate and only tangentially relevant to the growth of Japan as a nation and culture. It is only a reflection of Japan's growth that the haiku artform moved into the international scene. By comparison, the article on Haiku is ranked Top-importance, for its fundamental importance to Japanese culture. Boneyard90 (talk) 11:00, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Couldn't agree with you more. The importance of any pop phenomena can also change over time--sometimes within a short period. Importance can be reassessed. (Sadly, Puffy AmiYumi is rated low importance -- personally they're top importance to me!)

Isn't the wider concept of importance rating to identify high and top importance level articles for improvement anyhow? It seems to me that the list of "top" importance articles should be curated quite carefully, and "high" watched attentively. Prburley (talk) 15:11, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

I completely agree with both of you, but that is why I'm opposed to Haiku in English having "mid importance". "Low importance" would be better. Or, since the article deals EXCLUSIVELY with non-Japanese poetry (Japanese haiku already has a separate article), being removed from this project altogether might also work. elvenscout742 (talk) 16:45, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

I was tempted once to remove it from the project, but it is a Japanese artform. Are there any examples from other cultures? Boneyard90 (talk) 20:35, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

There is an Estonian haiku page that is covered under WikiProject Estonia but not WikiProject Japan. Lune (poetry) is another page that is apparently about an English-language movement (quite probably a non-notable one) derived from haiku, but it is not covered under WikiProject Japan. elvenscout742 (talk) 01:38, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

And as an active member of WP:Japan, you should feel free to tag those articles with the WP:Japan banner if you feel they belong (though the second one seems a bit too removed to warrant project interest). If you feel that Haiku in English does not belong, there does not seem to be anyone opposed to rescinding project affiliation or downgrading its importance. Boneyard90 (talk) 06:54, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

In terms of popularity, Haiku in English is one-tenth of Haiku's popularity. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 11:22, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

People assessing importance are not necessarily part of the project, and will not following the assessment guidelines, or just copy some other project's importances over, or will just use personal feelings instead of objectively looking at it from the viewpoint of the whole of Japanese history and culture and geography. Recently I saw a minor videogame character (but involved in a pivotal plotpoint in a popular videogame) rated as top importance for England, clearly no one from WPENGLAND would do that, or even WPVG... but it happens. -- 70.24.250.26 (talk) 07:30, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

2012 Asian American representative approval period (Now until 18 December)

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Asian American#Representative approval. RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 06:31, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Japanese language lead

Could somebody take a look at my rewrite of the lead of Japanese language? I've already gotten one complaint about it (it looked like this at the time of the complaint). CüRlyTüRkey^Talk_Contribs 03:56, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

"Mera sings Bach"

Anyone any idea why Yoshikazu Mera of "Mera sings Bach" etc. was moved to spelling "Mela"? In ictu oculi (talk) 16:25, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Because c. 2010 when I moved the page he went by "Mela" instead of "Mera.—Ryulong (琉竜) 16:36, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, news to me :) His 1998 recital disc, and every other BIS disc before and after has "Mera". All printed/published sources have "Mera" as per Billboard - 24 Jan 1998 - Page 42 Vol. 110, n° 4 "Plus, countertenor Yoshikazu Mera is a sensation in Japan, where his recital disc of Japanese art songs has sold 50,000 copies in four months, according to label reports. BIS has seen a 40% sales increase since 1992, even though the label ..." Anyway, no worries, could you move it back please. Thanks. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:06, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Oh you have done, well done, thanks. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:09, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

WP:MOS-JA states to defer to the subject's preferred English spelling if it is known before going to press variations.—Ryulong (琉竜) 18:07, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

As above. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:17, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

In 2010, he wrote his name as "Mela".—Ryulong (琉竜) 07:08, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

About customs of battle during the time of the Genpei War?

In article of Chinese wikipedia zh:壇之浦之戰 (Battle of Dan-no-Ura)it was written"Yoshitsune ordered his forces to attack the helmsmen and sailors of the Taira clan, thus immobilizing their fleets, though this tactic was considered contrary to some unwritten customs of battle at that time". Initially I thought it was only an unsourced original research, but tseveral days before I found views like "Yoshitsune's unusual tactics in Ichi-no-tani and Dan-no-ura were contrary to the customs of battle"(not declaring it as unwritten) in a literary critics book, and the Japanese wikipedia article seemed to suggest that this view emerged just recently. So I would like to ask: is thie view sourced in any historic references?--Inspector (talk) 14:11, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Kanji-hyōji problem

I was just reading Jōyō kanji#History, and I noticed that the kanji 叱 (list of newly-included kanji, 4th row, 4th from the right) is in brackets and is preceded by an empty box. I checked the source, and the box was there too. I looked up the official revised Jōyō kanji chart from the Japanese government and searched for this character.[3]. Page 19 says that this character's two variant forms are essentially the same character. I copied the one that wasn't displaying (I think the cross-stroke on the right-hand side that looks like 七 is written left-right as opposed to right-left) and tried pasting it into the Wikipedia page. It came up as a �diamond-question mark.

This might just be a problem with my computer/browser, but is anyone else having this problem? If so, any idea how we can address it?

elvenscout742 (talk) 02:13, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

The character 叱 is CJK Unified Ideographs, while the character 𠮟 is CJK Unified Ideographs Extension B which may not be supported by some operating systems or browsers. See this explanation.―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 03:57, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Wikivoyage

Not much to look at yet, but...[4]. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 07:07, 28 November 2012 (UTC)