Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan/Archive/May 2014

Talk & archives for WP Japan
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Kangiten?

Can someone please read the Japanese names of the three deities? --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 13:04, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

It's unreadable. But I found this and according to the page, they are Benzaiten 弁財天, Kangiten 歓喜天, and Vaiśravaṇa 多聞天（毘沙門天） from left to right. Oda Mari (talk) 17:01, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Oda Mari, Thanks a lot. One more further, can you please read the name of the temple given in the web link and provide the link to Wikipedia article, if it exists. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 13:32, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

It's Daishō-in. Oda Mari (talk) 17:00, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Domo arigato. :) --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 13:05, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Please honor the efforts of the Wikipedians who helped rescue an article on ESWiki

Dear English Wikipedia community,

Please honor the efforts today of the men and women who helped this Spanish Wikipedia article survive the a deletion process: es:Liceo Mexicano Japonés (Liceo Mexicano Japonés). This helped preserve not only a Wikipedia article, but it also preserved a record of an internet account of an important institution of an ethnic group in Mexico City, the Japanese Nikkei, and it helped ensure young men and women in Mexico City would learn more about their history and their culture.

Please recognize the efforts of these Japanese-speaking Wikipedians...

• en:User:Oda Mari
• Professor Yamada (ja:User:山田晴通)
• ja:User:Ichiro Kikuchi
• ja:User:Ks aka 98
• ja:User:あるうぃんす

...and these Spanish-speaking Wikipedians...

• es:User:AVIADOR
• es:User:Rosymonterrey
• es:User:Zerabat
• es:User:Enrique Cordero (for discovering mistakes in the Spanish and explaining how to fix them)
• es:User:Shalbat (minor corrections)
• es:User:AnselmiJuan (adding additional possible sources to the article)
• es:User:Demonaire Rai (for finding a page about book author Daniel M. Masterson that proved the author's credibility)

...and these English-speaking Wikipedians...

• User:Gamaliel (for providing references)
• User:OhanaUnited (for providing references)

...in helping rescue the article. (If I forgot anyone, I'm sorry!)

In addition, please honor the efforts of those on Reddit. http://reddit.com/u/enomooshiki has provided to me and others in the Wikipedia community a difficult-to-access master's degree thesis by Chizuko Watanabe ("The Japanese Immigrant Community in Mexico: its History and Present", California State University Los Angeles, 1983). In addition to the rescue of the article, more people will learn about Chizuko Watanabe's scholarship and her work will become available and known to many around the world. In addition, http://reddit.com/u/fabianhjr had given me a list to the Google Scholar sources which helped me find a Japanese source.

Thank you, - WhisperToMe WhisperToMe (talk) 00:01, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Old Japanese newspaper archives?

I'm re-posting this thread here (originally posted at Refdesk, but no one replied). Is there any website like HighBeam which has a searchable database of old Japanese newspapers? I'm looking for articles from 1997-98 to expand a song article "明日、春が来たら" (Ashita, Haru ga Kitara) by Takako Matsu. Any newspaper articles from that time period will be useful. I've been searching for magazine articles too, on the same song. ごだい (会話) 04:57, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Another good place to ask: ja:Wikipedia:Chatsubo WhisperToMe (talk) 06:06, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I really hope someone replies there. All my previous queries were ignored, haha lol. ごだい (会話) 11:50, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Both the Asahi [1] and the Yomiuri [2] have full-text databases that go back into the 19th century, but both are fee-based (though some may allow a free trial). You'd have to find a local research library that subscribes if you want to use them for free for an extended period. For a long time, Japanese newspapers printed "shukusatsuban" (ja:新聞縮刷版), which were basically bound versions of the newspaper, 1/4th the size. Again, major research libraries should have these (though some are throwing them out as they subscribe to the database). Otherwise, Japanese papers have been very protective of their "content" and have not made much available for free. Michitaro (talk) 12:32, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

I see. But, I don't live in a country that offers Japanese newspaper databases.. I'll have to ask someone with access to them. Thank you so much for explaining the things. ごだい (会話) 03:41, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Japanese universities

Hi,

could someone have a look at Tomutsa's contributions. He is blocked on the Japanese wikipedia for trolling (荒らし) on a university-related topic. So I'm not sure that writting that "Tokyo University of Science is one of the top ranked Japanese private universities" is accurate, especially when the same claims are removed for Waseda University.

XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 13:50, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

I would have no problem with such a statement if it was an actual quote from an RS and accurately sourced. The problem is that the citation given here is from the Japan Knowledge database, specifically citing "Dejitaru Daijisen", a major reference book published by Shogakukan which is included in JK. However, I just checked JK and not only does the Daijisen say nothing like this, none of the other reference sources it includes says it either. Here is ALL that the Daijisen states: "東京都新宿区に本部がある私立大学。明治14年（1881）設立の東京物理学講習所に始まり、東京物理学校を経て、昭和24年（1949）新制大学として発足。" (Note you can also get this on Kotobank: [3].) I fear that the user has not been using sources properly. Michitaro (talk) 16:27, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Japanese aircraft carrier Project Number G18

FYI Japanese aircraft carrier Project Number G18 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) has been nominated for deletion -- 65.94.171.126 (talk) 06:57, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Local names

Some editors have added supposed local names to the articles of Japanese municipalities, e.g., Miyakojima, Okinawa.

{{nihongo|'''Miyakojima'''|宮古島市|Miyakojima-shi|[[Miyako language|Miyako]]: ''Myaaku'', [[Okinawan language|Okinawan]]: ''Naaku''}} is ...[4]

Here I point out several problems and propose a solution.

• You may naïvely believe that there are 6 languages, Amami, Kunigami, Okinawa, Miyako, Yaeyama and Yonaguni. Each of these "languages" is an aggregate of languages in reality. It is like a language family. It is not something to be associated with particular word forms unless you are discussing proto-languages. "A Miyako word form" sounds like a Germanic word form.
• In Amami, Okinawa, Miyako and Yaeyama, every community has its own language. There are about 800 communities (shima). Thus there would be about 800 languages. They are the least controversial units. Every professional linguistic survey reports the community the informant belongs to. They are grounded on the speakers' own perception.
• These languages are characterized by radical sound changes that happened relatively recently. This means that you can find various word forms and none of them is the standard. People are usually well aware of differences between their own language and those of their neighbors.
• There is no lingua franca other than Standard Japanese. The so-called Okinawan language is just a language of south-central Okinawa. To be precise, the male members of the former samurai class in Shuri (used to) speak a social dialect that is intentionally differentiated (phonetically and lexically) from that of commoners. They have never try to construct a standard language to be spoken nationwide. For people of the Miyako Islands, people of the Okinawa Islands are Others rather than Selves. Adding an Okinawan word form to an article of Miyako is inappropriate.
• Comparative linguists cluster these languages to build a tree, according to typological similarities or phylogenetic relatedness. Different criteria result in different trees. There is no consensus. UNESCO Atlas of the World's Languages in Danger lists 6 "languages" but it is just one of many proposals. Uemura Yukio, whose short article is cited by UNESCO, actually presented two proposals: (1) the north-south division and (2) 5 languages of Amami, Okinawa, Miyako, Yaeyama and Yonaguni. He did not recognize Kunigami. Every original proposer of a tree is aware of its fragile status. Unfortunately, "authoritative" UNESCO is used to launder one theory in Wikipedia.
• Language or dialect? That does not matter as long as you choose one and mechanically apply it to every node in a tree. A problem arises only when you try to make the language/dialect distinction (or language variety is politically correct, huh?) somewhere in the tree. Such "languages" as opposed to "language varieties" are artificial. They are product of scholarly debate. It is like discussing whether a node is a family or genus in biological classification. They are independent of the speakers' own perceptions.
• Now let's take an example. Kunigami is a terrible misnomer if you intend to include Okinoerabu and Yoron (and south-central Kikai? That's highly disputed). Probably such a language is not recognized by its speakers. And they do not consider Kunigami District as the center. The label "Okinoerabu-Yoron-Northern Okinawa" reflects the reality more faithfully.
• It is wrong to equate the Kunigami language with the language of Yonamine, Nakijin. The language of Nakijin is well documented because it's home to a famed linguist Nakasone Seizen. Again, no one thinks Nakijin is the standard of the so-called Kunigami language. In fact, Nakijin is exceptional in many ways. For example, palatalization (ki > chi) occurred in Nakijin but not in many other places. This means that the word Okinawa is Huchinaː in Nakijin but Hukinaː elsewhere. To be precise, the initial h- is not ubiquitous and you can find yet another word form, Ukinaː. Adding Huchinaː as the Kunigami language word form is like a political campaign to promote Nakijin as Standard Kunigami. Such a campaign is legitimate only if it is a concensus among its speakers. That's not the case here.
• Again, 6 "languages" are artificial products of linguists. And it's important to note that identifying 6 languages does not mean to agree to construct 6 standard languages. It does not mean that linguists agree to eliminate internal diversity by standardization. Linguist Nishioka Satoshi raised concerns about the possible threat posed to minorities-within-minorities by UNESCO. For more informatoin, see Nishioka Satoshi 西岡敏 (2011). "Ryūkyūgo: shima goto ni kotonaru hōgen 琉球語: 「シマ」ごとに異なる方言". In Kurebito Megumi 呉人恵 (ed.). Nihon no kiki gengo 日本の危機言語 (in Japanese).
• More importantly, people do not agree to standardize their languages according to the 6 language hypothesis. If they do in the future, we may happily reflect that on Wikipedia.
• Local names have been added to various articles, but I decide to start with municipalities because they are modern products that cover numerous different communities. Take Taketomi-chō (town) for example. It covers the islands of Iriomote, Taketomi and Hateruma among others. The island of Taketomi is referred to as Teːdun (< *Taidun < *Takidun) on the island of Taketomi. This is an innovative form. As far as I know, people from other islands use the more conservative form Takidun, but you might find other word forms. Taketomi is the name of an island and it has local word forms. But what about the name of the town? I suspect that when people from various communities come together, they use Standard Japanese for communication. Even when people speak their own language, they often borrow words from Standard Japanese. For example, people from Kikai Island of the Amami Islands borrowed the word Okinawa from Standard Japanese because it is not in their native vocabulary [5]. To keep supposed local word forms in the article, you need to verify that they are indeed used as the town's name.

So, I propose the following solution.

1. Delete word forms that are not used in the municipality in question. For example, Miyakojima does not need the Okinawan word form.
2. Verify that a particular word form is actually used for the name of the municipality especially if it covers a large number of communities. Word forms which are not attested will be deleted in the future, but the first tentative step would be to add {{citation needed}} or {{verify source}} to such word forms.

--Nanshu (talk) 01:53, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

1. Opose: the mention of the Okinawan word in the introduction along with the Japanese and Miyakoan word for Miyako Island shouldn't just be removed. That would be the exact same as removing mention of "Königsburg" from the Kaliningrad article.
2. Neutral Oppose: of course Wikipedia has to be verifiable, but this sounds more like "erase all this barbar since it's been officially replaced". ミーラー強斗武 (talk) 04:21, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Are you kidding? Unlike Königsberg for Germans, the Miyako Islands have never been home to Okinawan speakers until people won freedom of movement in modern Japan. Or do you care about the presence of three zaiban officials sent from Shuri? If so, are you willing to add Kagoshima dialect forms around the article of Okinawa Prefecture in consideration of the presence of Satsuma's ~20 zaiban officials in Naha?

You must not made only-in-Wikipedia things. No original research is one of the most important policies in Wikipedia. Now the credibility of word forms is challenged. The burden of proof is on those who want to keep them. --Nanshu (talk) 11:07, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

The fact that the Okinawans directly controlled the island for over 300 years is enough for inclusion. And the Kagoshima dialect is covered by the modern name.

The credibility is only challenged by you. Under that pitiful logic, every single name on Wikipedia needs a citation if some guy comes along and decides he doesn't agree with them. And again, Ginowan, Okinawa actually had a citation for it's native name, but you erased it anyway didn't you? Go try this somewhere else. ミーラー強斗武 (talk) 21:54, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Again, this all seems to be a case of "I know more about this than any of you and I'm going to place my own personal forms of all these things because I'm right and you are all wrong" without any proof of the matter. So I also have to oppose your proposal. All we have are the known dictionary forms of the standard dialects of the six internationally agreed upon languages of the islands. We are also not going to be using your half-assed transliterations like the weird "Kamïyaki" stuff you tried to pull previously. And you're actually asking that we try to find some esoteric pronunciation from some little old lady living on one island in a group but not the main island. That's impossible. The status quo is fine.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 06:35, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Ukiyo-e Peer Review

I intend to make Ukiyo-e my next Featured Article nomination, and would greatly appreciate more feedback to ensure a smooth nomination. Please contribute to the review here. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 01:42, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

遙かなる

What's the real meaning of the 遙かなる (Harukanaru)? Can someone please enlighten me? --Golfxist (talk) 06:50, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

@Golfxist: It means "distant", either in time, space, or opinion. Also, the なる structure it uses is not found in modern Japanese, so it evokes historical Japan. (Personally I think of the Heian period, but I'm no expert on old Japanese.) — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 08:46, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

遥/遙か is a Adjectival noun (Japanese) and a naru adjective. 遙かなる is a commonly used literary word in modern Japanese. Oda Mari (talk) 09:15, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks everyone. :) --Golfxist (talk) 12:13, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

What can I say - listen to the native Japanese speaker, not me... — Mr. Stradivarius on tour ^{♪ talk ♪} 15:51, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Leaflet For Wikiproject Japan At Wikimania 2014

Are you looking to recruit more contributors to your project?
We are offering to design and print physical paper leaflets to be distributed at Wikimania 2014 for all projects that apply.
For more information, click the link below.
Project leaflets
Adikhajuria (talk) 16:43, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

WP:SAILORMOON merge

An RfC has been started a couple of weeks ago regarding the possible merger of Wikipedia:WikiProject Sailor Moon. The discussion is at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Anime and manga#RfC. Your input on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 06:30, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Following the RfC, the consensus has been determined to merge the project into a task force. It is now at Wikipedia:WikiProject Anime and manga/Sailor Moon. Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 02:59, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Battle of Shigisan

Battle of Shigisan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) has been requested to be renamed and the scope changed, for the discussion, see talk:Battle of Shigisan -- 65.94.171.126 (talk) 12:51, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Okinawan kanji

I know that whatever happens on another Wikipedia doesn't have any effects here, but the use of kanji in Okinawan is in dispute at Japanese Wikipedia. 沖縄口 (Okinawan language) specifically was removed from articles and babel templates. There is currently an RfC at one of the babel templates, and any Japanese speaker who would like to participate can go here. Sources would be appreciated. ミーラー強斗武 (talk) 04:31, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

"Mountain Day"

According to various news reports [6][7], etc. the Japanese Upper House earlier today (May 23, 2014) approved the estabishment of a new national holiday called "Mountain Day" (山の日). The official start day is August 11, 2016 (Hesei 28). There is already a Japanese Wikipedia Article on it here, but I am wondering if still a little too early to add it to Public holidays in Japan or to create an stub for it on Wikipedia. Anybody have any suggestions on how to best proceed? Thanks in advance. - Marchjuly (talk) 05:00, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

As it was passed and approved, I see no problem with creating a stub for it, and then moving it (eventually) to Public holidays in Japan . KateriDax (talk) 21:48, 29 May 2014 (UTC)