Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College football/Archive 24

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Team awards articles

Wondering whether folks think lists of team awards by program are a good idea. Unclear if they'd satisfy WP:GNG and/or WP:LISTN. So far as I can tell, only two such lists currently exist: Washington Huskies football annual team awards and Minnesota Golden Gophers football annual team awards. Thoughts? Cbl62 (talk) 06:31, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

These annual team awards were forked from the respective team articles. No other FBS articles had/have them. They're already sourced and easy to source via the local or regional newspapers. SeattleTimes, SeattlePI.com, StarTribune They already pass GNG and it would be nice to see more of them in this cat over time. The annual team banquent and award ceremony is common, but not universal. Coverage is easy find. Ex: Miami/MiamiHerald, Michigan/Detroit Free Press, Michigan State/DetroitNews, Penn State/Times Leader, Texas Tech/KBTX, Wisconsin/Wisconsin State Journal, etc. A handful of team articles have a single eponymous award section and this category would make a better home for that content as well. UW Dawgs (talk) 08:23, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

I'm on the fence as to whether they pass GNG and LISTN. Some things that are acceptable as content in a main program article may not be appropriate as a stand-alone list. Hopefully, we can get feedback from others. Cbl62 (talk) 15:15, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

Personally I think these would better fit on each team's season page, especially since there are only two and its iffy if they pass the policies Cbl mentioned above. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 15:25, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

Two major "2020" seasons are still in "Draft" state

Draft:2020 Conference USA football season and Draft:2020 Sun Belt Conference football season are still in draft.

All editors are welcome to bring these pages up-to-date. Experienced editors are welcome to bypass Articles for creation-review and move the pages to the main encyclopedia. 2020 Conference USA football season and 2020 Sun Belt Conference football season are currently "desirable redlinks." davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 01:50, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

@Davidwr: I have made improvements to the 2020 Sun Belt Conference football season article and the article is now in the mainspace. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 05:00, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

2020 Move discussion

at Talk:2020–21 NCAA Division I FBS football season-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 00:23, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Joining a conference but not competing

How do we treat an independent team that has joined a conference (joint public announcement, great fanfare) but does not play a league schedule in its first few years, and is not eligible for the league championship? How should this team's status be reflected in standings infoboxes, categories, non-conference asterisks in schedule charts, etc.? I'm sure WP:CFB must have dealt with this situation before, but I'm not well-versed enough in CFB history to know when and where.

The teams I have in mind are Boston University and Holy Cross for 1971 and 1972 in the Yankee Conference. We are currently inconsistent in how we refer to these teams on different Wikipedia pages. A longer post with details and citations is at Talk:Yankee Conference. Comments and advice welcome at that page. Thanks! _``` t b w i l l i e _{`</sub> $1.25 <sub>`} 15:01, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

• The only example that comes to my mind is Michigan State which joined the Big Ten in 1949. The Spartans began competing at that time in most sports but, due to an objection from Michigan, was not permitted to compete in conference football play until 1953. During its three years in limbo, Michigan State went 26–1 and won a national championship, but was ineligible for the Big Ten's Rose Bowl berth. In that case, we correctly list the 1950, 1951, and 1952 Michigan State teams as independent. Cbl62 (talk) 16:01, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

If the team is included in the standings with no record in the conference's official documents (e.g media guides) and in prevailing third-party listings, the we should reflect as such. Jweiss11 (talk) 22:26, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

It's been a couple weeks and no additional comments, so I'll go ahead and make the edits sometime this week. Following the Michigan State precedent, it seems to me it makes sense to treat Holy Cross and Boston University as football independents in 1971 and '72, but note in prose that the colleges as a whole were Yankee Conference members those years. Thanks, as always, Cbl62 and Jweiss11, for your help. _``` t b w i l l i e _{`</sub> $1.25 <sub>`} 16:31, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Currently-incomplete YYYY college football season risk exceeding expensive parser function limits

From Talk:1934 college football season#Page too big: The other seasons between 1900 or so and 1955 are in jeopardy of eventually ending up [with having too many expensive parser functions as additional conferences are added][1].

This is a side effect of how {{cfb link}} works: It uses the expensive parser function "#ifexists" multiple times if there is no article called YEAR SCHOOL TEAM football. There is a limit of 500 such calls per page.

The 1934 season was "rescued" by creating enough articles or stubs about 1934 seasons for particular football teams to get down to below 500 expensive parser functions.

I recommend that this WikiProject decide on a standard way of handling things when manually adding stubs is not feasible.

Some options were discussed at Talk:1934 college football season#Page too big including:

• Creating redirects even when the normal practice would be to leave red links to make it easy to see what YEAR SCHOOL TEAM football pages still needed to be written.
• Splitting the information about minor conferences off into a new page. Officially, there was no such distinction for some or all of these years. Breaking up was called "a can of worms" by one editor.
• Splitting by region. Breaking up was called "a can of worms" by one editor.
• Accepting the limitations but adding a hatnote with a work-around (1934 hatnote).
• "Best" solution according to multiple editors: Changing the Wikimedia software to allow administrator-approved pages that legitimately need to exceed the limit to do so. Unfortunately this would take months to approve and implement, longer if it's not "championed" by a group of editors or if there isn't a developer willing to champion it on the WP:Phabricator side of things.

An idea not mentioned:

• Create SCHOOL TEAM football (YYYY—YYYY) or SCHOOL TEAM football under Coach, athletic director, university president, or other person's name (YYYY—YYYY) "era pages" to represent significant eras of a particular school's football program, then create redirects for each YEAR SCHOOL TEAM football to the appropriate "era" page. As with creating any other redirect to YEAR SCHOOL TEAM football, the {{cfb link}} in that year's conference standings template would simply be replaced with a link to the redirect, eliminating the expensive parser function count.

My questions for this Wikiproject:

• Should this WikiProject be a "champion" of changing Wikipedia code to allow administrator-approved pages to exceed 500 expensive parser functions?
• In the meantime, what should the "default" solution for YYYY college football season pages that exceed the expensive parser function limit be, assuming the creation of stubs won't solve the problem or is undesirable for some reason? davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 14:21, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

I generally think flexibility to go above 500 calls is a good thing. Is there a query that can be done to determine how many college football articles exist where we are approaching the 500 call level? Cbl62 (talk) 14:46, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

I don't think there is a built-in query. There are ways to tell if you are over the limit, but they "burn" a use, so they are not advised. One "crude" work-around would be to have a bot run every week plus on-demand which create a list of KNOWN pages and store it on-Wiki on a "protected" page (to prevent "side-channel" vandalism), then turn that template into a Lua module. Have the module parse the bot-generated list, and have it avoid calling #ifexists if the page exists. Since almost every school or football program has at least a page or redirect by now, this would reduce the number of calls to #ifexist by about one per invocation, which should make the 500 limit a non-issue. This would be trading one problem for another though - the module would consume CPU time which is also a limited resource. Also, if reading the "data file" is itself an "expensive" operation, it will gain nothing. I'm not well-versed in Lua, I do not know if accessing an external Wiki page is considered "expensive" or not, but my gut says it might very well be. I guess the "list" could be a part of the Lua module itself, but that would require careful management to keep from breaking things every time the list was modified. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 16:25, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

The most complete solution here is to continue with the effort to build out the team season articles. Can we get some folks to focus on gaps in the 1900 to 1957 range? There are a number of current Division I programs that are missing many articles in that timeframe including: Howard (AL), Mercer, Miami (OH), Butler, Indiana State, Valparaiso, SE Missouri State, SW Missouri St, Western Illinois, Illinois State, Eastern Illinois, Morgan, North Carolina A&T, Hampton, North Carolina College, Howard, North Texas State, Sam Houston State, Stephen F. Austin, Southwest Texas State, Elon, Western Carolina, Presbyterian, VMI, Western Kentucky, Murray State, Louisiana Normal, Mississippi State Teachers, SW Louisiana, Middle Tennessee, Tennessee Tech, Eastern Kentucky, Stetson, Morehead State, Southern, Prairie View State, Abilene Christian, Arizona State–Flagstaff, Colorado Teachers. Jweiss11 (talk) 22:51, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Prior to rolling out season articles for the teams listed above, please take the time to verify the existence of GNG-level coverage. Many of the small schools did not get deep coverage, especially prior to the 1920s. In some cases, where the coverage is not deep, decade articles may be more suitable and defensible as per WP:NSEASONS. E.g., Temple Owls football, 1910–19, Maine Black Bears football, 1900–1909, New Mexico A&M Aggies football, 1893–1899. Finally, if you are interested in working on season articles, the Season Articles Campaign page remains a good resource. Cbl62 (talk) 05:37, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

RfD for Akron, Dayton season articles.

Hello y'all. There is an RfD at 1920 Akron football team that editors may be interested in participating in.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 21:59, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Head coach article deleted

FYI - A recent AfD on a Division II head football coach (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alvin Parker - head coach for two years at Virginia Union) closed with a determination to delete. This is the first time that a college football head coach article has been deleted in eight or more years. Some votes appear to have been influenced by accusations of paid editing and conflict of interest, but others advocated a broader view that an ordinary Division II coach is not sufficiently notable to have a stand-alone article. Cbl62 (talk) 19:16, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

I wish someone had brought this AFD to this project's attention before it closed. The closing admin also removed Parker entirely from Template:Virginia Union Panthers football coach navbox, which I just reverted. What did the article look like? @Spartaz: can you restore the article to my user space? Jweiss11 (talk) 21:19, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Well, it was listed on Wikipedia:WikiProject College football/Article alerts. I have that page watchlisted, but I didn't notice the discussion. I've made a cursory search on newspapers.com but didn't see the kind of in-depth profiles that help make coaching articles viable. Mackensen (talk) 21:59, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

I can't view the sources in the AfD since those websites aren't compatible with my region, but it seems to be a sensible result. There's only a smattering of local coverage. I looked up my local soccer team's manager just now and the press coverage is honestly very similar (local, transactional, occasional local feature story), and that local soccer team is several tiers too low to have any of their staff be considered notable without a good showing of WP:GNG. This project generally errs on the side of keep when a local paper writes about someone, and AfDs are generally attended by only the members of this project which have a wider stance of WP:GNG than the project at large, I've found, so my takeaway from this is Division II coaching articles could get deleted at AfD if there's any sort of attendance at AfD from people outside the project. SportingFlyer T·C 22:43, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Parker appears to have been a close case. This piece qualifies and is from the newspaper of record for a state of 8.5 million, but I'm less sure about the other cited sources. No reason to dig deeper since this one's closed, so for now, "it is what it is." Cbl62 (talk) 01:29, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Tex Coulter

I noticed he is in the 1946 Army championship infobox, but he is listed as a player for the New York Giants (as well as being a first round pick in 47 by the Chicago Cardinals.) Why is this player in particular so disjointed on the timelines?-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 22:23, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Looks like Coulter failed out of the USMA in in the summer of 1946 and did not play on the 1946 Army team. The Army media guide lists him as a letterman only for 1944 and 1945. I removed him from Template:1946 Army Cadets football navbox. Seems he played in the NFL with the Giants in 1946 and then was drafted by the Cardinals in 1947, but remained with the Giants after a deal was made between the two teams; see: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/61374536/new-castle-news/. Jweiss11 (talk) 01:39, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

CfD: Category:Ozarks Eagles football

I have nominated Category:Ozarks Eagles football for renaming. Please see the discussion here. Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 23:10, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Bot that manages {{cfb link}}

@Jweiss11: a couple threads up you mentioned a bot that replaces uses of {{cfb link}} with the actual article name if the article exists.

What else do that bot do with respect to this template? I have some ideas of how to use a bot to greatly reduce the expensive parser function count, but I need to know where to start. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 19:52, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

The bot in question is User:AnomieBOT, which is managed by User:Anomie. I don't believe the bot does anything else related to this template, but it appears to perform many other tasks. Jweiss11 (talk) 19:55, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Discussion for building consensus on the title for the 2017 UCF National champions navbox

Currently the title has no indication that 2017 UCF was not the consensus national champion. It looks like the title has been changed several times so I'm trying to establish a title by consensus at Template talk:2017 UCF Knights football navbox. Best, GPL93 (talk) 12:46, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

• Are there secondary sources naming them as the national champion outside of the school, since it is not officially listed? Maybe this should go to TfD instead of arguing over the title. SportingFlyer T·C 13:53, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

SportingFlyer Generally, for non-consensus national titles we include the entity within the navbox's title (see: Template:1974 USC Trojans football navbox ("UPI National Champions") and (Template:1960 Ole Miss Rebels football navbox ("FWAA National Champions")) in order to indicate that they were not the sole national champion. UCF's title is weird in that their's is a national title awarded from an entity that is not recognized and always went unclaimed until they did. The issue is that some editors have removed the Colley Matrix part from the title, which can cause confusion as a different team was established as a consensus national champion in 2017. Best, GPL93 (talk) 14:16, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

I was under the impression the championship was not officially awarded until a couple decades ago, and they did not win the official championship. I'd still probably favour removing it entirely if that's the case. SportingFlyer T·C 14:33, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

The Colley Matrix is an official national championship selector, and UCF is recognized as such in the NCAA guidebooks, but they obviously are not consensus champs. The infobox should clarify this. Toa Nidhiki05 14:37, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Montgomery Bowl navbox

Template:Montgomery Bowl navbox has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. Fbdave (talk) 00:12, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Cfd: Category:Tri-State Conference (1960–1978)

I have nominated Category:Tri-State Conference (1960–1978) and its subcategories for renaming as the Tri-State Conference (1960–1981) exited until 1981, not 1978. Please see the discussion here. Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 22:24, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Multiple head coaches in Template:Infobox college sports team season

I've proposed adding formal support for interim head coaches to {{Infobox college sports team season}}. Feedback appreciated at Template talk:Infobox college sports team season#Multiple head coaches. Thanks, Mackensen (talk) 01:17, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Vacated Victories article

Many many moons ago we had discussions here about how we would cover vacated victories. That eventually led to an essay and sandbox piece that I started (as User:Nolelover at the time). I just came back to the sandbox and put an afternoon into it--unfortunately it doesn't seem like @Cmadler:, @Levdr1lp: or @JohnInDC: are around anymore, so I wanted to invite the project here to look over the piece before it gets moved to mainspace. I have the barebones and will eventually expand the history/some facts about its use. Any help gratefully appreciated -- Alyo (chat·edits) 23:57, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

with respect to the sandbox piece, the topic of "vacated victories" strikes me as notable and worthy of an article. Cbl62 (talk) 22:16, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Much appreciated Cbl, I'll move and start linking to it then. Alyo (chat·edits) 00:12, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Update to peer review page

Hi all, I've boldly updated your project's peer review page (Wikipedia:WikiProject College football/Peer review) by updating the instructions and archiving old reviews.

The new instructions use Wikipedia's general peer review process (WP:PR) to list peer reviews. Your project's reviews are still able to be listed on your local page too.

The benefits of this change is that review requests will get seen by a wider audience and are likely to be attended to in a more timely way (many WikiProject peer reviews remain unanswered after years). The Wikipedia peer review process is also more maintained than most WikiProjects, and this may help save time for your active members.

I've done this boldly as it seems your peer review page is pretty inactive and I am working through around 90 such similar peer review pages. Please feel free to discuss below - please ping me ({{u|Tom (LT)}}) in your response.

Cheers and hope you are well, Tom (LT) (talk) 23:49, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Markus Paul

Is there anyone willing to help expand the playing career section of the Markus Paul article? Would be helpful to getting it on the recent deaths section of the front page.  Bait30  ^{Talk 2 me pls?} 22:55, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

CFD: Category:Tri-State Conference (1960–1981) and related

Category:Tri-State Conference (1960–1981) and two of its subcats have been nominated for deletion. Please see the discussion here. Jweiss11 (talk) 02:49, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

This discussion has stalled without a clear consensus. More input would be helpful. Thanks. Jweiss11 (talk) 20:58, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

More conference CfDs

I have a two more nominations for category renaming related to Gateway Conference (1962–1975) and Oklahoma Collegiate Conference. Please see the discussions here and here. Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 21:25, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

WikiConference North America

Hey all! I am planning on having a WikiConference North America sports panel December 12 3:00 EST. This is something that has never been done before and there are many sports which are "native" to North America and part of the America identity. What it seems to be is that we (you, me, and other members of WikiSports) will be in a Zoom (or other video conferencing app) to discuss our experiences in editing sports on Wikipedia. These can range from combating vandalism to how to best get permission to use sports photos. The organizers of WikiConference North America (WCNA) created an Etherpad surrounding planning which I will link here. if you Command F "sports" you will find the section. This will be the very first panel WCNA has ever had on sports so not much to go off of here.

Please ping me if you have questions as this page is not on my watchlist. HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 20:50, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

CfD/TfDs: University of South Florida Athletic Hall of Fame

I have nominated a template and two categories related to the University of South Florida Athletic Hall of Fame for deletion. Please see those discussions at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2020 December 1#Template:University of South Florida Athletic Hall of Fame and Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 December 1#University of South Florida Athletic Hall of Fame. Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 22:00, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Title Name Change to "RoofCliam.com Boca Raton Bowl

To whom it may concern,

The Boca Raton Bowl just announced a new sponsor and needs the title changed on the wikipedia page to "RoofClaim.com Boca Raton Bowl"

Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tdrake0735 (talk • contribs) 20:29, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

It looks like other college bowl games are known by their non-sponsorship names. If you want to create a redirect, go ahead. See Cotton Bowl Classic and its incoming redirects for an example. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 21:04, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Not done. See List of college bowl games and Wikipedia:Article titles. UW Dawgs (talk) 21:15, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Tdrake0735, while the title of the article will not be changed per UW Dawgs above, I have updated the body of the article to reflect this change. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 22:59, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Agree that we should not rename the article to suit the advertising desires of this year's commercial sponsor. Cheribundi was the sponsor in 2019 and Cheribundi Tart Cherry in 2018 and "Pardon My Take"/"Wet the Beak" before that. This is a bowl that shops out naming rights from year to year to whatever company wants to pay the most $$$ . We are not here to advance the marketing agenda of RoofClaim.com or any of the other annual sponsors. IMO where the sponsor changes from year to year, we should have a brief mention of the current sponsor in the article lede but it should not otherwise be featured. Otherwise, Wikipedia becomes just another advertising conduit. Cbl62 (talk) 23:40, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Oppose Agree with PCN, and Cbl, that way we avoid that mess like with the NASCAR race article names.–UCO2009bluejay (talk) 00:01, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Overall record / Last meeting / Result tables

In the "Game summaries" sections of the team season articles, there's been a proliferation of tables noting "Overall record / Last meeting / Result" versus each opponent. These tend to be prevalent in more recent seasons, e.g. 2019 Florida State Seminoles football team#Game summaries. Last year, I briefly raised this topic at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College football/Archive 23#Some MAJOR inconsistencies. UCO2009bluejay and I agreed there that these tables were crufty clutter. Any objections to a mass deletion of the tables? Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 03:28, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

@Jweiss11: I add these to game summaries because I thought it was the consensus; I would definitely not object to a mass deletion, as they don't add a ton and getting rid of them would certainly make the article-creation process quicker. I'm happy to help with said deletion as well if that's the option we go with. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 03:33, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

• No objection. Cbl62 (talk) 03:35, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

Note: here's a search result that I think gets all or most of the articles with these tables: [2] @Lepricavark: would you be willing to help out with deleting these? Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 03:48, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

It would be better if there were some way of automating it. Going through each article one by one might be too tedious even for me. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 07:21, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for working on this. Will we have a consistent format that we can use on the game sections?-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 14:26, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

I would like to have a consensus format for game summary sections, and I'd be more than willing to work on conversions, though it'll be quite the task. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 16:27, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

@Primefac: do you think it's possible to automate the deletion of this content with a bot? @Jpp858:, @Seanmyers2004: you both do a lot of work on current season articles. Any thoughts about this topic? Jweiss11 (talk) 01:10, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Can it be done? Probably. If the removals don't all look the same (e.g. like this), then it won't necessarily be easy. Primefac (talk) 03:20, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

I personally like these boxes just because they add more information for the reader to digest, but I can see how they can be a clutter on mobile devices and the like. I don't quite know if there is a way, but like @Primefac: said, it probably can be done. Even if not, I am sure it can be manually done quite simply.--Seanmyers2004 (talk) 17:51, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

If there are almost 2k uses, it makes more sense to do it by a bot, but with that many uses there should be a reasonable consensus to do so. Primefac (talk) 18:31, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Consensus for bot to delete?

Can we build a consensus to run a bot to delete these tables? I certainly support it. Jweiss11 (talk) 02:20, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

• I support running a bot; if for some reason that does not work I will certainly help out with manual deletion. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 04:17, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
• Support removing as trivial and bulky.—Bagumba (talk) 06:35, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
• Support. Cbl62 (talk) 04:33, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

@Primefac: is this enough to move foward? Jweiss11 (talk) 21:53, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Heh, I guess so. Might take me a while to figure out how to remove everything with the least amount of disruption. Primefac (talk) 20:25, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

@Primefac: please keep us posted on hour progress with this. Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 20:47, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

This has been towards the bottom of my list, but I can't think of what's near the top, so I guess this is now it. Primefac (talk) 21:03, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

The first 10 diffs of removal from the list, please check them to make sure nothing has gone awry (everything looks good from my end though). Primefac (talk) 22:39, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Primefac, thanks for getting on this. Looks like too much is being deleted. Take 2017 Syracuse Orange football team for example. We only want to get rid of the "Overall record/Last meeting/Result" tables. The scoring summaries using Template:Linescore Amfootball should be kept. Jweiss11 (talk) 23:25, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

On 1994 Oregon Ducks football team way too much was deleted including sourced prose. Jweiss11 (talk) 23:26, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Feel free to revert anything that's not done correctly, but I guess I'm now confused - I thought the whole point of this discussion/request was to remove these sections as they contained no more useful information than the Scheduling section (and/or too much crufty info). Primefac (talk) 14:03, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Primefac, he point of this discussion was to remove only the "Overall record / Last meeting / Results" tables and nothing else. See this edit of mine for what should be removed at 2016 Missouri Tigers football team. Does this make sense? Jweiss11 (talk) 16:00, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Okay, so we're talking edits more along these lines? Primefac (talk) 02:08, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

That looks perfect to me. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 03:14, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

@Primefac: Yes, that looks good! Jweiss11 (talk) 03:17, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Cool. Primefac (talk) 10:45, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

I've got a bot request set up for this task, but there are questions that this group would be better at answering. Thanks! Primefac (talk) 14:12, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

 Done. Primefac (talk) 23:04, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

@Primefac: Thanks much for tackling this! Jweiss11 (talk) 21:18, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Two "football standings" pages with too many expensive parser functions

• List of Southern Intercollegiate Athletic Association football standings (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• List of Southwestern Athletic Conference football standings (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

1934 college football season was over the limit until recently. If other conferences are added, it may go over the limit again.

See Category:Pages with too many expensive parser function calls for a full list of Wikipedia pages with too many expensive parser function calls.

The "quick fix" is to identify "notable seasons" and create pages for them, then edit the conference-season template to link to the actual article rather than calling {{cfb link}}. For each page created, the expensive parser function count goes down by at least 1. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 23:02, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Just a note here on operations. Cfb link is set up such that once an actual article is created, a bot will go around and update all the relevant calls of cfb link to a direct link to the new article. Jweiss11 (talk) 01:21, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Give that bot a barnstar tickets to every bowl game as a reward for its service. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 04:22, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Good idea. I presume bots can attend live sporting events during the pandemic! Jweiss11 (talk) 23:09, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

@Davidwr: any idea why the two standing lists above don't appears to have any rendering issues while 1934 college football season does (see the last three standings templates in the west region, even though all three are over the 500 limit? Jweiss11 (talk) 21:23, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

@Jweiss11: First, List of Southern Intercollegiate Athletic Association football standings does have the problem in the 1941 year. Second, to answer your question: I think it is because the "SCHOOL MASCOT football" page has already been found to exist, perhaps it is being cached? I don't know for sure. But if you look at List of Southern Intercollegiate Athletic Association football standings there is ugliness for [[{{{school}}}|SE Louisiana]] but not for the schools further down. However, if you view Template:1941 Southern Intercollegiate Athletic Association football standings everything looks okay. As a test, I went put {{cfb link|year=1941|team=Southeastern Louisiana Lions|title=SE Louisiana}} at the top of List of Southern Intercollegiate Athletic Association football standings to see what would happen when I previewed the page. Sure enough, it looks good in both places. But Mississippi Southern looked bad in the 1940 and 1941 templates. I did not save the edit.

This does bring up a strategy for "conference" pages should this issue crop up again: If you can find a team that only shows up ONE time, and create a "year" page for it, it will save you two expensive parser function calls, allowing at least one more entry to show up. If the next "failing" entry happens to be a "football team" page rather than a "school" page, it will be "fixed" throughout the page. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 22:01, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Abe Martin"s" move discussion

Hello everybody, there is a move discussion for two Abe Martin coaches here I think that we could use some editors familiar with the project in the discussion.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 06:51, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

Hi, that discussion appears to be closed now, as consensus was reached to move as suggested. Dmoore5556 (talk) 18:34, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

CfD: Category:Saint Mary's Cardinals football

I have nominated Category:Saint Mary's Cardinals football and its subcategories for renaming. Please see the discussion here. Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 01:23, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

2021 College Football Playoff National Championship

It was vandalized a few hours ago by a drive-by IP. I've reverted. I'm not ready to call for semi-protection or pending-changes protection just yet but we can probably expect more of this kind of thing with high-profile bowl game pages in the coming weeks. Sigh. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 03:14, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for restoring it. I'd recommend requesting semi-protection fairly soon once warranted. Dmoore5556 (talk) 03:25, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

I figure if any bowl game has more than 3-4 separate vandalism incidents a week or more than 2 clearly separate ones a day, protection is in order unless user-blocks or other measures are better in that particular case. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 03:55, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Denoting CFP bowls in infoboxes

CFP (and to a lesser extent BCS) "conference tie-ins" have made their way into the infoboxes of some of NY6 bowl games. Today I did a few WP:BOLD edits to remove them from those infoboxes, because:

• CFP is not a conference
• no bowl game is part of the current 4-team playoff each season
• existing bowl pages inconsistently denoted CFP affiliations

I believe it now makes sense to add field(s) to Template:Infobox college football bowl game to allow the display of a bowl's playoff affiliations. Both to provide relevant info, and to avoid future co-mingling with conference tie-ins.

Current playoffs	CFP (2014–present)
Prior playoffs	BCS (1995–2013)

In the same way that the template currently has |conference_tie-ins= and |previous_tie-ins=, we could add fields |playoff_series= and |previous_playoff_series=. The idea being we can then display something like appears at right in the infobox for the Rose Bowl Game, as an example. I'm not sure of the exact wording, or if we try to go further and deal with the rotating nature of CFP semi-final pairings within an infobox, but I've (hopefully) outlined enough here to get a discussion going.

Again pinging frequent contributors: Cbl62, Pvmoutside, Murphanian777, Toll Booth Willie, UCO2009bluejay, Jweiss11, Patriotsontop, Dragonash1974, PCN02WPS, MisterCake, Paulmcdonald. Input and suggestions welcome. Thank you. Dmoore5556 (talk) 05:37, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Dmoore5556, I think your solution will work fine, just to denote that the bowl is affiliated with the CFP rather than specific conferences. Some alternate wording may have to be devised since the BCS wasn't a "playoff" but maybe "affiliation" or something related could be used. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 18:10, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Championship series	CFP (2014–present) BCS (1995–2013)

PCN02WPS, thanks. Good point about BCS not really being a playoff. Perhaps "Championship series" wording would cover both BCS and CFP? In which case, we may only need a single entry, as current/past can be indicated by years: example at right. Could also include Bowl Alliance and Bowl Coalition. Feedback welcome. Dmoore5556 (talk) 21:47, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Comment I'm following with interest, but I have very little understanding of efficient template programming techniques.--Paul McDonald (talk) 22:56, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

Dmoore5556, I think that or something like "championship affiliation" or "championship series affiliation" would work fine. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 01:50, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

Championship affiliation	CFP (2014–present) BCS (1995–2013)

PCN02WPS, "Championship affiliation" seems most appropriate, thanks. The wording will likely wrap, but there's already "Previous conference tie-ins" which is even longer. I'll try "Championship affiliation" in the template and will see how it looks on a couple of pages. Will advise here so you and others can take a look. Dmoore5556 (talk) 02:50, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

Championship affiliation	CFP (2014–present) BCS (1998–2013) Bowl Alliance (1995–1997) Bowl Coalition (1992–1994)

All, I added a |champ_affiliation= field to the template. For a bowl that has been affiliated with all four of the championship efforts (that have existed so far), it should look like what's shown at right (the ranges are express in football seasons; e.g., CFP was first used as part of the 2014 FBS season). I'm not crazy about how some of the ranges wrap, but we get that on a lot of infoboxes. For a test, I added these championship affiliations to the Fiesta Bowl (which has been part of all four). Anyone interested, please take a look. Feedback welcome. Dmoore5556 (talk) 03:43, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

Dmoore5556, I think that looks great. Thanks for taking the lead on this. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 07:13, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

Update I added "Championship affiliation" fields to each of the bowls that have been in any of the CFP, BCS, Bowl Alliance, and Bowl Coalition. Which is not a list I would have gotten right, off the top of my head (list follows). Dmoore5556 (talk) 04:24, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

• CFP: Rose, Sugar, Orange, Cotton, Peach, Fiesta
• BCS: Rose, Sugar, Orange, Fiesta
• Bowl Alliance: Sugar, Orange, Fiesta
• Bowl Coalition:
  • Tier 1: Cotton, Fiesta, Orange, Sugar
  • Tier 2: Sun, Gator; and Blockbuster (now Cheez-It) for the 1992 season only

Forfeited games callout

Note, the project has this essay Wikipedia:WikiProject College football/Vacated victories which also has forfeit callouts.

@Frank Anchor:

Editor recently replaced[3] the 1994 "27–21" game score in the Indiana–Michigan State football rivalry article with "2–0" due to Michigan's subsequent forfeit of the game to Indiana and NCAA treatment of forfeits.

To date, the project has not replaced the actual "game score" with a "2–0 forfeit score" in any articles or tables. So this edit would be a change to the global presentation with which I disagree. FWIW, SR.com has a list of forfeits and vacated games which gives a sense of the quantity of these games.

However, if there is interest in changing the global treatment of forfeits in some supplemental manner, perhaps now is the time. For example, there could be a footnote added ala "Note, the NCAA considers the score of forfeited games to be 2–0" paired with a supporting citation. UW Dawgs (talk) 05:46, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

I am against removing the scores of any games that were played to completion on the field; if there is an after-the-fact forfeit, I support the noted suggestion of adding a footnote. Dmoore5556 (talk) 05:52, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. I was unaware of previous discussion on forfeits and vacation of wins, particularly since forfeits have become much less common over the last 20 years or so. Maybe not replace the score, but it needs to be made clear in rivalry and team season pages that the non-forfeiting team is noted as the winner of a game that was forfeited, more than a footnote that most readers don't pay attention to. Frank Anchor^Talk 13:51, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

I added a "Forfeited wins" tab and citation, Indiana–Michigan State football rivalry#Game results. That solution mirrors the "Vacated wins" tab treatment used in other rivalry articles (Ex Notre Dame–USC football rivalry). The 1994 Michigan State Spartans football team article and section are already clear. UW Dawgs (talk) 18:44, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

D3 season article policy

Hi all - just wanted to check on what the project consensus was for non-D1 season articles. I have been wanting to create season articles for my school, Centre College, but I didn't want them to get deleted or anything for not being D1. Centre has some history in the early days of college football and has existing season articles for a selection of seasons between 1890 and 1924, and my goal was to fill in the majority, if not all, of the remaining redlinks in the navbox. Is the consensus that they are acceptable with GNG and secondary sources, or are they discouraged altogether? Thanks, PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 22:54, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

In those days, Centre was clearly a major program. You certainly have my support to to flesh out the seasons in that time period. I recently created 1934 Centre Colonels football team. They were still playing major programs like Tennessee, Xavier, Marquette, and Boston College then. Jweiss11 (talk) 23:08, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

So we have a Praying Colonel in our midst! Centre is likely a mixed bag in terms of notability. It was certainly a major program for some period of time, particularly in the 1910s and 1920s -- even getting limited national championship recognition for its 1919 team. I don't know much about Centre's program other than during those peak years. I understand that the program is currently classified as NCAA Division III. Some editors have shown hostility toward season articles for Division III programs, and I too am skeptical about the notability of season articles for ordinary Division III seasons. In general, it's my view that season articles should only be created for Division III programs in very limited circumstances. In the end, WP:GNG is the controlling guideline, and if you decide to go ahead with the plan, it would be prudent to verify the extent of the coverage before creating each year's article. Best bet is to do that and then populate each of the season articles with sourcing demonstrating that GNG is satisfied. These steps should help to avoid the pain of putting tons of effort into a project and then have them nominated for deletion. Cbl62 (talk) 23:29, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Oregon–Washington football rivalry

There is a WP:3RR / content dispute at Oregon–Washington football rivalry in which you might be interested. UW Dawgs (talk) 03:05, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Colors of the Bowl Season

Hello

I saw that the Bowl Season made a Style Guide at page 5 there are the colors for the bowl season red and gold.

I thought that I could maybe change the color of the following two Navboxes to this two colors similar two {{College Football Playoff navbox}}.

What are your thoughts? Would this be ok for you? --Malo95 (talk) 08:54, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

Malo95, I'd say probably oppose for {{NCAA football bowl season navbox}}, since the new colors would only apply to one of the links listed, but I'd be neutral for {{2020 bowl game navbox}}. Blue for NCAA or red/gold for Bowl Season could both be appropriate in my eyes. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 16:30, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

Malo95, I support using the Bowl Season logo and corresponding color for the {{2020 bowl game navbox}} navbox. Fair use justification would need to be added to the logo's page, I believe, as the logo image is not in the public domain. Your proposal does look quite nice. As this is the first season that Bowl Season as an organization has existed under that name and logo, I'd lean towards leaving the {{NCAA football bowl season navbox}} as-is, since it links back to the 1930s. Dmoore5556 (talk) 18:30, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

Split oppose for the NCAA navbox, IMO should keep blue for the 2020 navbox until we know how prevalent this "bowl season" logo/colors/promotion is within the bowl games. I like the incorporation of the logo, but as Dmoore pointed out it needs to be designated as fair use first.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 01:32, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Now that I look at it, it falls down to what the real parent scene is. I would argue it should stay in line with the rest of the NCAA navboxes.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 01:38, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

While these navboxes have "NCAA" in their titles, the NCAA doesn't run bowl games nor does it run the College Football Playoff. Unlike the NCAA Division I Football Championship in FCS, which is run by the NCAA. So I believe there's room for some flexibility here. Dmoore5556 (talk) 02:22, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

I disagree, while I know that ESPN owns most of the bowls, the NCAA controls bowl elgibility. The fact that the term "NCAA" is used for these navboxes having the bowl one have a different format would make it stick out worse than a sore thumb. I know that proposals to create a college sports superproject have failed in the past. But I think that the variation of schema would possibly alarm a few of them that work on NCAA "championships" in other sports.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 02:57, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Well, if navboxes with "NCAA" in the title should always be blue... another option could be just adding the bowl season logo (below). Dmoore5556 (talk) 03:19, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for all your answers. It looks like you prefer to stick to the NCAA blue, this is no problem for me. For information, I had the colors added to the Module:College color for the future. With the parameter "Bowl Season" you get the colors:

Red and gold
   

References

Kind regards --Malo95 (talk) 07:51, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

I have no objection to the most recent proposal.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 05:49, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

List of X College Players in the NFL draft pages format standardization

I have a couple of questions regarding the NFL draft lists.

• It appears that User:Debartolo2917 has overhauled many of these lists over time including some of these list with the WP:FL designation (which I don't necessarily think was bad). Was there a standard format prior to this and either way should their be a standard in place?
• What purpose does having a column for the sixth pick in the fifth round serve?
• Should the NFL team link to the franchise or the specific season?
• Some are in decending order from most recent to earliest, ex List of Tulsa Golden Hurricane in the NFL Draft, this isn't like most of our lists.re
• Should there be a minimum threshold for the list with any list smaller than that number merged into the main program page?

-Thoughts?-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 05:40, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Comment. Should be in chrono order per WP:SALORDER. I've fixed a bunch, but not all -it is a pain. Also, I didn't ever find a template to flag the list section order being as being wrong (not chrono). Convenience link: Category:Lists of National Football League draftees by college football team. UW Dawgs (talk) 05:48, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Overall pick is most often referenced, not the specific pick within a round. I'd link to the team, not season. Small lists probably also mean the school's draft picks aren't collectively talked about much, failing WP:LISTN to be a standalone. Be prepared to to piss off some alumni editors though.—Bagumba (talk) 08:13, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

• I'd say a program with < 10 players in the NFL doesn't warrant a stand-alone list. Cbl62 (talk) 09:28, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

I'm open to a higher threshold as well (maybe even 25), but fewer than 10 seems pretty clear. Cbl62 (talk) 09:31, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Undrafted free agents Seems these should probably just be named "List of X College Players in the NFL draft", though I guess undrafted free agents aren't that common in football.—Bagumba (talk) 10:36, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

I had a similar thought. These lists are under-inclusive in that they (i) exclude undrafted free agents who actually make it to the NFL (not so uncommon over the sport's history), (ii) exclude 20 years of players from the days before there was an NFL Draft, and (iii) exclude players who may have been drafted by or played only in the AFL or AAFL. They are at the same time over-inclusive in that they include players who were merely drafted but never appeared in a game. IMO a more meaningful group of lists would be "List of XU alumni who played professional football". Cbl62 (talk) 16:12, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

BTW, lists of the type I described are not difficult to source. Pro-Football-Reference.com allows sorting that accomplishes this. See, e.g., Texas A&M, Centre, Bucknell, etc. Cbl62 (talk) 16:20, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Attendance figures

I have been working on expanding 1972 Iowa State Cyclones football team and run into the difficulty of differing attendance figures between the ISU media guide and the contemporary news reports. Some discrepancies are not significant but several figures are off by thousands. Which source do the experienced editors of this project consider more reliable for attendance, media guides or primary sources? Kges1901 (talk) 18:14, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Kges1901, I would learn toward the contemporary news sources here, particularly if you find more that one than corroborate one another. It may be worth reaching out to Iowa State's athletic department, as they may be able to shed light on any discrepancy. Or the error could be on their part, and they may want to correct their media guides. I think Steve Malchow may be the guy to start with. Jweiss11 (talk) 19:01, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

cancelled vs canceled in 2020 articles

Admittedly this might be a boiling the ocean question and exercise re ongoing edits. Sadly, "cancelled" or "canceled" appears in almost every 2020 team and 2020 conference article. Editor-created prose leans ~75% to the "cancelled" spelling, while citations (such as the citation's title) are 95%+ using "canceled." Within the same article, editors have used both formats which makes a very disjointed reading experience. The internet says both formats are correct (correctly spelled), perhaps with US favoring "canceled" and UK favoring "cancelled" formats. It's a trivial effort to resolve this in either direction via search-replace with WP:AWB, while leaving each citation's title as-is of course.

Examples:

• 2020 NCAA Division I FBS football season -uses both formats
• 2020 Arizona Wildcats football team -both formats
• 2020 Auburn Tigers football team -both formats
• 2020 Big Ten Conference football season - Only "canceled"
• 2020 California Golden Bears football team - Only "canceled"
• 2020 Charlotte 49ers football team - Only "cancelled" in prose, only "canceled" in citations
• etc

Taking my lead from our citations which might be heavily influenced by the AP style guide, "C/cancelled" could be replaced with "C/canceled" and that would be my view. Feedback welcome before being bold. UW Dawgs (talk) 23:23, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

American college football articles should follow American English spelling norms, which would be (as you say) "canceled" per this. Alyo (chat·edits) 03:48, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Nice find, thank you. Global updates done per same. UW Dawgs (talk) 05:38, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Lock on Bryan Harsin

Don't know if this is the right place to put it, but can someone put a lock or semilock on Bryan Harsin's page? It's getting pretty heavily vandalized since it was announced he took the Auburn job and I have no idea how to lock it.Bsuorangecrush (talk) 02:49, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for page protection UW Dawgs (talk) 03:16, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Coaches Articles

Hey guys we should try to make an article for every coordinator (specifically offensive and defensive) in division one football if you can help out let me know I’m gonna start on this today Bigmike2346 (talk) 21:23, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

• Having articles for every single coordinator would lead to hundreds of non-notable stubs that would eventually be deleted as being a coordinator does not inherently lead to significant coverage. For example, Tarleton State's DC only has one non-routine feature article about him that I could find. Most coordinators do not meet WP:GNG and well-known coordinators like Clark Lea and Steve Ensminger already have articles. Kges1901 (talk) 21:40, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
• I appreciate your enthusiasm but I suspect most coordinators wouldn't pass the GNG. Take Andy Avalos, who is prominent and a likely future head coach. I went looking for feature articles this fall and didn't really find anything. I'm not sure the current article should be kept. I don't want a repeat of last year where Sam Pittman got hired at Arkansas and we didn't have an article--he was easily notable beforehand--but before writing a new article you should find multiple feature articles about that person. Mackensen (talk) 21:57, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

I was referring to power 5 offensive and defensive coordinators Bigmike2346 (talk) 00:04, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

With 60+ programs in the Power 5, that's still at least 120 coordinators, which seems like a pretty large effort that may not yield a lot of benefit if pursued in a random fashion. Might be worth starting with a list of existing coordinator articles, so the current status is clear. Then list gaps / desired articles, and get some input. Then new content can be worked on in a prioritized order. Dmoore5556 (talk) 05:37, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Like Missouri’s Ryan Walters or Stanford’s Lance Anderson Bigmike2346 (talk) 00:11, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

@Mackensen: @Kges1901: Bigmike2346 (talk) 02:43, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

• I think Walters is do-able. I found a story in the Kansas City Star about his connection to Eric Bieniemy. Anderson might be tougher; I didn't immediately spot a feature article. This is often easier when people move around and the local newspaper does a deep dive on the new hire. Mackensen (talk) 03:03, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
• I agree on Walters having enough coverage to pass GNG. Anderson has several features in the Salt Lake Tribune and San Francisco Chronicle from 2014–2015 and has come up in coaching searches, so he is notable enough as well. The important issue here is that you are able to find enough coverage to satisfy GNG, rather than assuming that all P5 coords will be notable. Kges1901 (talk) 03:23, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

Nyan Boateng

would anyone mind having a look at this article to see if he passes the college football bar for notability? I don't see it on the NFL side and coverage appears limited to some legal issues that don't seem appropriate as the basis for an article. Thanks! StarM 03:18, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Looks to be worth raising at AfD; if there's a case for notability, that will surface it. Dmoore5556 (talk) 05:25, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Dmoore5556. I've done so here Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nyan Boateng if you or others in the project have insight to weigh in. StarM 22:16, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

COVID interim coaches

In cases where a head coach misses a game because of COVID-19, does he receive the official credit for the win/loss or does it go to whoever was named interim for the game? There are at least two situations where this has come up: Mike Norvell/Chris Thomsen and Scotty Walden/Tim Billings. The only place where the interim credit is noted is Thomsen. http://stats.ncaa.org/head_coaches credits the games to Norvell and Walden. Mackensen (talk) 00:40, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Per NCAA rules, in cases where the permanent head coach is inactive but still employed by the school, it's up to the school to decide who gets credited with the win, the permanent head coach or the interim/acting head. For example, Mike Krzyzewski missed a game in 2018, and Jeff Capel III served as acting head coach; see here. But Duke credited all games that year to Krzyzewski. In contrast, when Krzyzewski missed more than half of the 1994–95 season, Pete Gaudet was credited as the head coach of record for those games. The Norvell/Thomsen looks different from Walden/Billings. Walden was hired by Austin Peay on October 27 and it doesn't look he's coaching Southern Miss anymore. Thomsen looks like he just filled in a game for Norvell. I suspect Novell is the head coach of record for all games including the one he missed. Jweiss11 (talk) 02:59, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, that makes sense. It's screwy, but Walden did miss a Southern Miss game because of COVID before taking the Austin Peay job. Billings was the replacement for that game, and is now, separately, the interim head coach. Mackensen (talk) 03:13, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

@Eagles247: per your edits at Larry Johnson (American football coach) and Template:Ohio State Buckeyes football coach navbox, are you sure Johnson is the coach of record for Ohio State's game this past weekend against Michigan State? Jweiss11 (talk) 04:36, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

Regardless, I do not think a one-game interim head coach, who simply fills in while the head coach is ill, should be included in a program's head coaching template. If that were the case, we would have to populate the coaching templates with dozens of such one-off circumstances. Cbl62 (talk) 06:42, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

Eagles247, I just received confirmation via email from Jerry Emig, sports information director at Ohio State, that Day is the coach of record for all games to date this year. Cbl62, what matters is who is the coach of record. If dozens of one-game interim head coaches are actually the coaches of record, then yes, we need to reflect that in navboxes, infoboxes, lists, and record tables, etc. But I doubt that dozens of such one-game interim head coaches are actually the head coach of record. I'm not aware of any such cases. Jweiss11 (talk) 15:40, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. I had not been aware of the "coach of record" distinction. How is that determined? Are there rules that govern? Is it published somewhere? I ask because, while I admire your diligence in reaching out to the athletic department, Wikipedia really isn't supposed to be basing its content on private correspondence with associate SIDs. Cbl62 (talk) 16:06, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

This type of question came up recently for Nick Saban; news report here. That report cites the NCAA rule/policy, which is here, page 6 "Head Coach Determination". Dmoore5556 (talk) 16:24, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

@Jweiss11: Thanks for looking into this and correcting my edits. I was also not aware of the "coach of record" distinction, but I assume all of Ohio State's media records will reflect Day as the head coach of the game moving forward if that is the case. Once that information is publicly available, I think a note at all the relevant pages should be added. Eagles 24/7 (C) 17:38, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

Cbl62, I understand that my private emails aren't reliable third-party sources, but when the win from this past Saturday was attributed here to Larry Johnson, that wasn't based on reliable third-party sources either. It was based on an assumption that wasn't true. We may be hard-pressed to find reliable third-party sources that explicitly address and resolve issue like this in a timely fashion. I do see though that the Big Ten Football Weekly Release published yesterday does report Ryan Day's record as overall record as 21–1 and conference record as 15—0, which indicated that it does include this past Saturday's game. Jweiss11 (talk) 23:22, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

Les Miles

@Rockchalk717: I just noticed your edits at Les Miles concerning his record with respect to his missing of Kansas's game this season against West Virginia on October 17. I suspect Miles is the coach of record for the game. Do you have a source that someone else is credited with the game as interim coach? Jweiss11 (talk) 06:16, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

This article published on October 29 reports Miles' record at Kansas at 3–14. That would include the West Virginia game on October 17, which suggests he was indeed the coach of record. Jweiss11 (talk) 19:17, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

The game notes published by Kansas prior to their final game of the season (against Texas Tech) listed Miles' record at Kansas at 3-16 (see lower left side of page 1); as the Jayhawks went on to lose that game, it suggests he ended the season with a record of 3–17 at Kansas. At least in the view of whomever is responsible for organizing Kansas' game notes. All of their 2020 game notes are here. Dmoore5556 (talk) 20:49, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

adding a "temporary location" field to Template:Infobox college football bowl game

Temporary location	Toyota Stadium, Frisco, Texas (2020)

Quick note to suggest adding a "temporary location" field to Template:Infobox college football bowl game. This is spurred by a couple of bowl games being temporarily moved this bowl season: the New Mexico Bowl (already played in Frisco, Texas) and the CFP semifinal that may or may not end up using the Rose Bowl Game name (Arlington, Texas). Example at right (context is New Mexico Bowl). Additionally, the Rose Bowl Game was already played once in a temporary location (the 1942 edition, in North Carolina). I believe it would useful for us to have a "temporary location" field in the infobox, since these situations are materially different from when a bowl makes a permanent location change (such as the Cotton Bowl Classic).

Again pinging frequent contributors: Cbl62, Pvmoutside, Murphanian777, Toll Booth Willie, UCO2009bluejay, Jweiss11, Patriotsontop, Dragonash1974, PCN02WPS, MisterCake, Paulmcdonald. Input and suggestions welcome. Thank you. Dmoore5556 (talk) 02:34, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Update — I adjusted the wording to "Temporary venue" and updated the template (as this can be easily adjusted or reverted if necessary); see infobox at New Mexico Bowl for usage example. Dmoore5556 (talk) 19:23, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

3 other bowls that currently say "previous" but should say "temporary" are: Tangerine Bowl in Gainesville 1973, Gator Bowl in Gainesville in 1994, and Sugar Bowl in Atlanta in 2006. 71.162.113.226 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 15:45, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks; I have updated those. Dmoore5556 (talk) 16:10, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

Great! 71.162.113.226 (talk) 01:20, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Is it time to make teams 2021 pages yet?

Is it time to start making 2021 team pages? Some teams seasons are over. AirCrow (talk) 03:55, 30 December 2020 (UTC)AirCrow

AirCrow, I think the common practice is to wait until the season is over for everyone, which would be after the national championship. Not sure how we're going to handle this for this year given that most FCS programs haven't started yet and the FCS season won't end until May. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 00:59, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Culture & Lore: single games, mirroring

Looking at a random team's navbox, I see:

One of these things is not like the other. Most are university Culture & Lore items such as mascots, marching bands, and traditions.

But Holy Buckeye is a 4-5 Purdue team failing to prevent a certain touchdown. It's completely non-notable in the Culture & Lore of Purdue. It is (perhaps) a part of Ohio State's Culture & Lore, and it is listed there, due to importance of the play leading to an eventual National Championship.

These types of single-game Culture & Lore items are included in the nav boxes of many programs. They are generally mirrored in the Culture & Lore of both the "winners" and the "losers".

• Should single games/plays be listed as "Culture & Lore" at all? The section seems intended for "mascot & fight song"-type content, not a list of all statistics and games-with-articles.
  Previous discussion:
  > As for including transcendent games in "culture & lore," it should be resisted because it's so subjective and could lead to navbox bloat. That said, I think a rare exception for something like "The Play" would be fine.

• Is there instead room for a new section for notable games and plays?

• If a game is Culture & Lore for one program, should that item be mirrored in the lore of the other program? The "negative" item is rarely held as a tradition or lore at the other school. (This would not preclude notable-to-this-program "negative" items such as USC athletics scandal).

Examples of such current navbox items that seem to fail being part of the "Culture & Lore" of the team:

• Notre Dame: Bush Push
• USC: 2007 Stanford game

Often these items make the nav box look truly ridiculous, such as a Northwestern navbox containing 3 team/fanbase culture items and then a random loss from 2006:

PKAMB (talk) 19:20, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Acknowledging that there's a certain elegance to standardization, my opinion here is that the items contained in "Culture and Lore" and "Bowls and Rivalries" sections, and even the titles of the sections themselves, ought to be handled on a case-by-case basis, as in many cases they are truly subjective. Are secondary or unofficial mascots noteworthy "culture"? (sometimes yes, sometimes no). Are individual games noteworthy "lore"? (sometimes yes, sometimes no -- and as you pointed out, sometimes a game is significant for one team but not for the other). The official fight song is notable "culture" -- but what about other songs that get played at every game? These are all judgment calls.

I also think the way that significant games are categorized in the navbox is strange, and that's part of what makes the NU navbox above look so odd. Rivalry articles really are about an element of the football program's culture and lore -- the rivalry is bigger than one particular game, and it is (or at some point was) an annual tradition. Links to articles on individual notable games really ought to be bundled in a section with bowl games, as they are both specific, one-time events.

Notwithstanding concerns about bloat, my opinion is that single games/plays should be listed if they are an important historical event, or a cultural touchstone, for that particular university and its fans. An opposing team's notable game should not be "mirrored" just for the sake of it. The purpose of the navbox is to give the reader links to articles that will provide a broad survey of what this football team is all about. If it's the thing the team is best known for nationally, or the thing that an old fan would tell to a new fan within the first half-hour of discussing the team's history, and if Wikipedia has an article on it that can pass WP:N, then it's probably worthy of inclusion in the navbox. _``` t b w i l l i e _{`</sub> $1.25 <sub>`} 02:35, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

College football season articles reaching expensive parser call limits; new push for season articles?

Over the last year I've been building out the standing templates for smaller and defunct conferences. One problem here is the seasons articles where these templates are transcluded in mass are subject, as are all articles, to a maximum of "expensive parsers function" calls. Each time Template:Cfb link is invoked, it make two of these expensive parser function calls, so there's a limit of 250 cfb link calls per article, including those from transcluded templates.

1934 college football season is currently over the limit and 1955 college football season is right at the limit. davidwr, Frietjes: maybe it's possible revise the code of Template:Cfb link so that it only make one expensive parser call per invocation and double the limit? Take Template:1955 Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference football standings for example. That template calls {{cfb link|year=1955|team=Gustavus Adolphus Golden Gusties|title=Gustavus Adolphus}}. So that looks for 1955 Gustavus Adolphus Golden Gusties football team and when it doesn't find it, it points to Gustavus Adolphus Golden Gusties football. Can we gain anything by taking out the part of the code that looks for Gustavus Adolphus Golden Gusties or Gustavus Adolphus College if Gustavus Adolphus Golden Gusties football can't be found? That shouldn't be necessary because we should have at least a redirect for every college football program.

Another solution is that we make a new push in the season articles campaign. We are still missing many season articles for NCAA Division I and other historically significantly programs. Plus many conference title winning and undefeated seasons by smaller programs may warrant articles. The years to focus on regarding this issue would be 1919 to 1957.

Pinging the usual suspects here: Cbl62, Pvmoutside, Murphanian777, Toll Booth Willie, UCO2009bluejay, Dmoore5556, Patriotsontop, Dragonash1974, PCN02WPS, MisterCake, Paulmcdonald. Can you guys help? Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 21:53, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

I would recommend creating a new template, call it Template:Cfb link2, that skips the "year" page check altogether. Use it on conference-season tables where it is extremely unlikely that a "year" page will ever be created, such as weaker conferences. There will be a price: If someone DOES create the "year" page, then between the time it is created and a bot or human replaces the template call with a direct page link, the table will point to the "football team" or "school" page instead of the "year" page. Small price to pay for increased flexibility. I do NOT recommend changing the existing template without a long discussion, as it would be considered a "breaking change." davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 22:06, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

@Jweiss11: to answer your question Can we gain anything by taking out the part of the code that looks for Gustavus Adolphus Golden Gusties or Gustavus Adolphus College if Gustavus Adolphus Golden Gusties football can't be found? In terms of expensive parser functions, that's already been optimized, so there's nothing to be gained there. If the issue was WP:PEIS or some other issue, then maybe, I'd have to take a look at it. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 22:09, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

What makes a parser function "expensive", and is there confidence that such a characterization is (still) accurate and a specific limit is needed? Just asking, as I'm not familiar with the history of it. Thanks. Dmoore5556 (talk) 22:35, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Read WP:EXPENSIVE. The {{#ifexists:....}} parser function is expensive the first time it is used. The templates and modules that check if a file is a redirect are also "expensive." The limit is 500 per page. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 23:00, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. The overall Wikipedia:Template limits page is interesting. That limit appears to be arbitrary... but I wouldn't advocate trying to move the goalposts as the best path to success here. Thanks. Dmoore5556 (talk) 23:46, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

@Jweiss11: I have an idea that might work: If the "year" page does not exist, then check if |school= is set BEFORE doing any more "ifexists," since it would "break anyway" if the "team" page does not exist and |school= is not defined. I'll work up something in the sandbox. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 23:05, 4 December 2020 (UTC) Nevermind, not going to work. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 00:08, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

I think that a cfb2 link for templates would be a good option, but then again the standings templates for small colleges apparently are the source of the issue.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 23:40, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Might it be possible to just avoid use of the Cfb link template for "old" standings (since that's the genesis of hitting the "expensive" limit): fill out standings with a link to whatever does exist, and then use a bot of some sort to periodically check see if a year-specific page has been created? For example, I looked at Template:1934 Missouri Intercollegiate Athletic Association football standings, where none of the five programs have a 1934 page, but they all do have a program page (e.g. Northwest Missouri State Bearcats football). So rather than using Template:Cfb link five times in the standings template, setup the standings template to reference the program pages. This then pushes the effort to periodically checking to see if any 1934 pages have been created for the noted programs, which would seem to be bot-able, and seemingly not urgent. Just a thought. Dmoore5556 (talk) 00:56, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

@Dmoore5556: I've been told that there is already a bot that scans uses of {{Cfb link}} and substitutes "year" pages if they exist. Perhaps the solution is to add an |linkoverride=wikilink parameter to {{Cfb link}} that would "force" a certain page to be linked, whether that page exists or not. This would make it a "zero expensive parser function call" template when that parameter is used, while preserving the current "bot replaces template" behavior. It would have one major downside, or perhaps you could call it a feature: If the linked-to page were ever deleted, or moved without leaving a redirect, it would turn red; if it were ever used for an unrelated topic or worse, a different school's football team, it would NOT show up in the "whatlinkshere" listings and might go unnoticed. At least in the case of "page used for a different purpose," your solution will show up in "whatlinkshere" so it might be noticed and fixed. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 16:00, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

That said, this "add a parameter to the template" solution might make the risk of hitting the post expansion include size limit highter. Your solution would eliminate that possibility as well, but it would require reprogramming a bot or making a new one. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 16:00, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

Update I made a sandbox version and test cases. When |linkoverride=page to wikilink goes here, the expensive parser function count is zero. I have NOT checked for things like post-expansion include size issues.

I am NOT saying that we SHOULD use this solution, I sandboxed it so it could be evaluated against other possible solutions to the problem. Discussion and further testing strongly encouraged. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 16:18, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

@Davidwr: Thanks for the update and discussion. I looked at the sandbox and test cases; I believe |linkoverride= is an effective and straightforward way to avoid expensive parser function calls (with caveat as you outlined). Agreed that further discussion and testing are encouraged. Thanks. Dmoore5556 (talk) 18:25, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

I don't believe that a |linkoverride= parameter is the best solution, as at that point, you might as well just make it a normal link. I'm not sure where to put the code, but I came up with and assembled different solution: adding a |mode= parameter. If the "{{{year}}} {{{team}}} football team" page exists, the template runs as it does now, but if it does not, |mode= does one of the following:

• If set to "light" or "lite", the page merely gives the {{{team}}} football team" link. If the {{{team}}} parameter is blank or omitted, the page is placed in Category:College sports link error.
• If set to "medium" or "med", the page checks if the "{{{team}}} football team" page exists. If so, it displays that; if not, it simply links to the overall team page. If the {{{team}}} parameter is blank or omitted, the page is placed in Category:College sports link error.
• By default, or if set to anything, the template acts as it does now. You could think about it as "heavy mode" if you want.
• BONUS: In all cases where Category:College sports link error is invoked, the {{{cat}}} parameter can be set to "no" to disable such categories. I wonder, though, if the code should be rewritten to make use of {{Yesno}}, which allows more negative boolean values to be used.

This alone should, if implemented on the templates, be effective in ensuring that links work as intended. I also would like to see similar features implemented with the other college sports link templates, though that's for a different discussion. Pinging Cbl62, davidwr, Dmoore5556, Dragonash1974, Frietjes, @Jweiss11:, MisterCake, Murphanian777, Patriotsontop, Paulmcdonald, PCN02WPS, Pvmoutside, Toll Booth Willie, and UCO2009bluejay (many of these may or may not have responded, but just in case). -BRAINULATOR9 (TALK) 18:52, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Color contrast question

Could anyone who knows about MOS:COLOR and accessibility take a look at Talk:Boston College–Syracuse football rivalry? I'm questioning whether the color scheme of the results table, using orange for Syracuse and maroon for Boston College, ought to be changed to use one or both of the teams' alternate/secondary colors, for better contrast. Thanks! _``` t b w i l l i e _{`</sub> $1.25 <sub>`} 22:30, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Toll Booth Willie, yes, good suggestion. setting team1style to NCAA secondary color cell|Boston College Eagles should provide much better contrast. Dmoore5556 (talk) 21:49, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Jack Podlesny re-creation

Hi, I created a page for Jack Podlesny in early August, but it was deleted because of a lack of notability. Now that he has won the starting placekicking job for UGA, and has received national attention for his game-winning field goal in the Peach Bowl, as well as receiving the Offensive MVP Award at the Peach Bowl, I believe he has reached the notability required for a wikipedia article to be created. Let me know what you guys think! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gcjimmerson (talk • contribs) 16:59, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

Podlesny's accomplishments do not qualify him for an automatic pass under WP:NCOLLATH. Accordingly, WP:GNG will control, and the decision will depend on the extent of significant coverage Podlesny has received in independent media outlets. In terms of procedure, you should collect the best examples you can find of such coverage and present them to the administrator who closed Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jack Podlesny. In this case, the closing admin was User:Vanamonde93. Cbl62 (talk) 17:59, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

There were 30 or so bowl MVPs this season (even with fewer bowls, some games give offensive and defensive awards)... being a bowl MVP is not a proxy for meeting WP:NCOLLATH or WP:GNG. Dmoore5556 (talk) 22:18, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Naming conventions for 2020–21 FCS season articles

Okay, folks, here's a question for you all. Now that the FBS season is winding down, how are we planning on handling the naming conventions for this season's FCS teams? To recap, we have three basic groups of teams in terms of how they handled things, COVID-wise: 1.) Some teams played games in the fall of 2020 as they normally would. Their seasons are now complete (ex. 2020 Central Arkansas Bears football team) 2.) Some teams played games in the fall of 2020, and have announced intentions of playing more games in the spring of 2021 (ex. 2020 The Citadel Bulldogs football team) 3.) Some teams did not play any games at all in the fall of 2020, but have announced intentions of playing an abbreviated spring schedule in the spring of 2021 (ex. 2020 Nicholls Colonels football team). So how do we want to go about naming all of these articles, keeping in mind that all of these teams will very likely be playing a normal fall football schedule next year in the fall of 2021. For the record, the main season article has already been moved to 2020–21 NCAA Division I FCS football season. Ejgreen77 (talk) 07:34, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Given that the NCAA refers to the 2020-2021 FCS season, I lean toward that being the default for all teams in the absence of other factors. It seems like even the teams who finish fall seasons will still be considered for the spring playoff, and I don't see a need to differentiate "spring"/"fall" for group 3 if we don't need to. The "season" now spans both fall and spring, so is there a downside to saying that a team that finished all its games by December played in "2020-2021"? We can also wait to see how sources cover the spring: there's obviously a chance everyone exclusively refers to "Spring 2021" distinct from fall 2020. But I do think that's objectively less accurate given the playoff picture. Alyo (chat·edits) 19:08, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Has anyone looked at possible impact on templates, such as Template:Infobox NCAA FCS football yearly game? My initial reaction is to stick with "2020 School Nickname football team" and put some manner of standard note in the lead of each article. Other than advising readers that "the 2020 FCS season spanned the fall of 2020 and the spring of 2021, for more info see xxx" I don't see a need to make wholesale changes. And every team page would also need two redirects (from 2020, and from 2020-21 using an incorrect hyphen rather than the proper ndash)... doesn't seem worth it. As an aside, there is one team in FBS that has scheduled some spring games, 2020 New Mexico State Aggies football team. Dmoore5556 (talk) 22:08, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

I agree with Dmoore5556 here; I'd say for ease of linking and overall formatting, stick with "2020" in the article name and add a hatnote or note in the lead with an explanation. That seems like it would do the job in my eyes, since some FCS programs are playing games in both fall 2020 and spring 2021, while some played just in fall 2020 and some just in spring 2021. Better to have them all styled one way (and, for what it's worth, I wouldn't be opposed to removing "–21" in the title of 2020–21 NCAA Division I FCS football season either). PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 06:30, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

QB navboxes

Which is the proper format for a QB navbox? Just last names or full names with years? Also, should it be any quarterback who ever started a game, just the ones with articles, just the ones who started a full season, etc.?

Jhn31 (talk) 23:30, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

I'm not aware of any prior discussion as to the proper formatting of these, so thanks for bringing this up. Others should chime in as well, but here are my thoughts: (1) it's my understanding that navboxes are only supposed to include entries for which an article exists, as the purpose is to facilitate navigation between articles that already exist; (2) not aware of a rule, but I prefer the "last name only" approach unless disambiguation is needed where multiple quarterbacks have the same last name, (3) not sure what policy may apply, but I personally find the parentheticals showing years played to be helpful. Cbl62 (talk) 18:17, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

Jhn31, the standard for NFL QB navboxes is to include full names and years, e.g. Template:Miami Dolphins starting quarterback navbox. I suggest we follow that. Jweiss11 (talk) 21:42, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Using first names may work for the Dolphins who have only 37 starting QBs in franchise history. But if extended to college programs that have been around for > 120 years and have had 100 or more starting quarterbacks, first names add unnecessary bulk to already bulky navboxes. For this reason, and at least in the case of programs with long histories, I favor excluding first names as has been done at Template:Michigan Wolverines quarterback navbox, Template:Notre Dame Fighting Irish quarterback navbox, and Template:Alabama Crimson Tide quarterback navbox. Cbl62 (talk) 06:50, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

American Football Minor Leagues WikiProject Proposal

I have made a proposal for a WikiProject, American Football Minor Leagues. It will improve football minor-league articles. Put your name in the "support" section of the article if you would like to join. BeanieFan11 (talk) 00:31, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Little Caesars Pizza Bowl / Quick Lane Bowl

In looking through the NCAA's most recent "Bowl/All Star Game Records" document, I see that they consider the Quick Lane Bowl to date back to December 1997. The document lists: "Name Changes: Ford Motor City Bowl (1997); Motor City Bowl (1998-2008); Little Caesars Pizza Bowl (2009-13); Quick Lane Bowl (since 2014)" see here on pages 12–13. There's also a single list of MVPs (page 152). We have independent articles on Little Caesars Pizza Bowl (1997–2013) and Quick Lane Bowl (2014–present). Thoughts on whether they should be merged? Dmoore5556 (talk) 02:03, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

A brief follow-up, now to recommend merging the content of Little Caesars Pizza Bowl into Quick Lane Bowl, given the NCAA's view that they are only one bowl, not two. The merge itself would be straightforward; input welcome. Pings to Cbl62, Pvmoutside, Murphanian777, Toll Booth Willie, UCO2009bluejay, Dmoore5556, Patriotsontop, Dragonash1974, PCN02WPS, MisterCake, Paulmcdonald, and Jweiss11. Thanks. Dmoore5556 (talk) 00:47, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

I would be opposed to such a merger, per things like this. Ejgreen77 (talk) 01:12, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

We appear to have a dead tie for the fifth AA OL spot

I brought this up last year when Micah Parsons and Zack Baun had a straight tie for the third linebacker spot in terms of two first place All-American selections each and 3 second team selections each. No consensus was created or previous consensus invoked. This year, we again have a tie of two first teams and three second teams between Brady Christensen and Kenyon Green for the fifth offensive line spot. Do we leave the fifth spot empty as there is no clear consensus or in these cases do we consider both to be consensus All-Americans? Best, GPL93 (talk) 14:12, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

According to the the NCAA's FOOTBALL AWARD WINNERS, p. 17, Parsons and Baun tied and made consensus in 2019. P. 5 lists the criteria for selection: "To be named to the Consensus team, players have to be listed on the first team for more than half the All-America teams used in the compila- tion. If no player meets this criterion at a position, a player can be selected if named first team on at least two of the All-America teams. Second and third teams are used to break ties. In the case of a true tie, all players are listed." This is currently listed in better detail at College Football All-America Team#Consensus All-Americans than in the specific year articles. Based on that, it would seem Christensen and Green should both make it for 2020.—Bagumba (talk) 15:52, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Bagumba Thank you. Patrick Jones II and Darius Stills also received the same number of 1st and second team selections on the defensive line but I assume that would not apply given that Jones is an end and Stills is a tackle. Best, GPL93 (talk) 16:12, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

The NCAA doc just lists them as generic "DL", which I assume means the specific position doesn't matter. —Bagumba (talk) 16:24, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Clayton White article

Guys we need to make a Clayton White article, he is the new DC at South Carolina and spent three years in the NFL Bigmike2346 (talk) 20:18, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

And he was a broyles nominee twice Bigmike2346 (talk) 20:20, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

I started it any help would be great Bigmike2346 (talk) 20:58, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

CfD discussion

There is a CfD discussion in which you might be interested, involving:

• Category:American players of American football of Mexican descent
• Category:Jewish American football people

The discussion is located at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 January 15. UW Dawgs (talk) 21:45, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Module college color

There is a discussion at Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2020_December_28#Module:College_color that editors of this project may be interested in participating in.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 16:41, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Team captains navboxes

A discussion is underway at Template talk:Notre Dame Fighting Irish captain navbox as to whether or not we should have navboxes for college football programs' historic team captains. Please feel free to comment there. Cbl62 (talk) 08:22, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Article needs source

The article Gregg Baker needs a source, it was removed years ago when the link went dead.--Paul McDonald (talk) 18:18, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

USFL notability

Hello, I have a question about the notability with USFL players (I imagine the vast majority played college football.) If so do the articles inherit notability like those of the NFL or AFL players? I have started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject American football#Status of the United States Football League.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 02:39, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

• I've personally always considered USFL players the same level of notability as NFL. Should be no problem to find enough sources to pass WP:GNG.--Paul McDonald (talk) 18:19, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Military season articles

I stumbled upon 1932 San Diego Marines football team and 1932 West Coast Army football team, both created by the same editor. Not sure how they should be categorized, or even what military operation they belong in. SportsGuy789 (talk) 03:14, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

• Teams like that actively competed against college teams. Also, many high school and town teams did the same "back in the day". There is also currently The Apprentice Builders that is not a "college" but more of a technical school and they regularly field a varsity team. See Wikipedia:WikiProject College football/Notability for more discussion and details.--Paul McDonald (talk) 18:22, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

This is cute

Template:NCAA divisions but is it necessary? It is on the NCAA Divisions I, II, and III pages. Wouldn't these be better served with an Infobox:Sports League or something like that.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 13:53, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

• The Roman numeral graphics are distracting and excessive.—Bagumba (talk) 14:42, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
• Agreed. This template should be deleted. Infoboxes can be added to the relevant articles. Jweiss11 (talk) 16:39, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

NCAA Division I

Formerly	NCAA University Division (1956–1973)
Sport	various
Founded	1973
No. of teams	357 (full member)
Country	United States
Headquarters	Indianapolis, Indiana U.S.
Official website	www.ncaa.org/d1

• Should the infobox look something like this? Or would Infobox Organization be a better fit (as it is on the NCAA page)?-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 19:30, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

• I think the example at right is a better solution than the link template. I do like the idea of a prominent link to Div. II and Div. III, however. I'd suggest adding a line: | related_comps = [[NCAA Division II]] -br/- [[NCAA Division III]] (replacing "-br/-" with a proper linebreak -- I can't seem to get the less-than and greater-than to render properly).
  I also think the "sport =" line should be omitted entirely. "Various" doesn't link to anywhere that's relevant. Maybe "College athletics" would be better. Also in the footnote, "regular season and postseason games" would be more accessible to non-American (or non-sportsball-watching) readers than "... bowl games". _``` t b w i l l i e _{`</sub> $1.25 <sub>`} 21:27, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

• I added talk page notes at Talk:NCAA Division I, Talk:NCAA Division II, Talk:NCAA Division III, Template talk:NCAA divisions and User talk:IagoQnsi, the user who created the template under discussion. I'll leave it up to others to decide if there are other WikiProjects that need to be notified. _``` t b w i l l i e _{`</sub> $1.25 <sub>`} 21:56, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

• UCO2009bluejay, no need to link to Indiana. Classic OVERLINK. Jweiss11 (talk) 23:36, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Just copied the format from the NCAA page.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 01:53, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

References

AfD: Prairie College Conference (1988)

I've nominated Prairie College Conference (1988) for deletion. Please see the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Prairie College Conference (1988). Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 19:41, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Coaching trees in head coach articles

Prior discussions[4] point to general, but not universal, agreement that "Coaching tree" sections should be reserved for "significant" (my term) trees. There is not currently a single Talk section which clearly states this. re edit summaries when removing these sections where appropriate, it would be helpful to have a clean/consensus project Talk section to reference. Hopefully this section can become that and affirm the apparent "generally no, but it depends" consensus.

Here are the current FBS coaches with "Coaching tree" sections.

• Mack Brown#Coaching tree
• Todd Graham#Coaching tree
• Jim Harbaugh#Coaching tree
• Brian Kelly (American football coach)#Coaching tree
• Lane Kiffin#Coaching tree
• Mike Leach (American football coach)#Coaching tree
• Nick Saban#Coaching tree

Endorse bold removal where appropriate, such as with Kiffin IMO. UW Dawgs (talk) 15:47, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

I thought we had a established a pretty strong consensus at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College football/Archive 23#Tree littering, but happy to reaffirm or broaden that consensus. Such a consensus should have buy-in from at least WP:NFL and ideally other sports projects. Please see Wikipedia:WikiProject College football/Coaching trees, where I have articulated the consensus we reached last year. Note: I've just removed the coaching trees from Brown, Kelly, and Kiffin, as they did not pass muster. Jweiss11 (talk) 04:46, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Fordham Rams football § Nat Pierce

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Fordham Rams football § Nat Pierce. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:19, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

College Football Template for Career Stats on player articles

So I maybe completely wrong here but hopefully all the editing I've just done is helpful. I was doing Pending Changes editing and got an IP who wanted to correct Dan Marino's college stats. After seeing that the source was considered reliable by this project, I updated the information. It was after that, that I realised he didn't have a stats table on the article for his college career games. I spent some time looking for a template to use but it appears the only one close was the NFL projects Template:NFL QB stats start? I also noticed there didn't appear to be any consistency to how the table was done and that could just be down to whatever resource was used, that had the stats on it. So anyway, I'm saying all that because I thought I could help out here as well (Go Hokies!), and get a discussion going about a template and maybe add more to the projects' consensus on how things should look.

Here is the work I have done from different CFB career stat templates, to see if we can get one for this project to use. Let me know what you think, if I'm on the right track, or am I completely off base and missed that this has all been done already.NZFC^(talk)(cont) 14:03, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject College football/Season articles campaign

We've now got articles for (I think) every season of every Power Five program, though there are micro-stubs that can and should be improved and a few other other FBS programs that still lack season articles. Any thoughts on which programs' season articles are most in need of attention? Cbl62 (talk) 04:27, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

QB Navboxs

So appears I took to long designing this that the previous discussion was archived but I have finished a resign and want others thoughts. Problem with the QB Navbox for College is some of them can have so many people listed that it gets really messy and hard to read. I thought something like the 2nd box I designed is much better and easier to read but it does make the box bigger. I thought that doesn't matter much when the navbox is only "an expand" to read one and not autoexpanded usually. You can also easily change how many players you have listed by whatever years you want as per the 3rd example NZFC^(talk)(cont) 09:23, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

• Personally, I like the first version better. Cbl62 (talk) 13:46, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

"Noon" vs. "12:00 p.m."

Do we have a project-wide consensus on whether we prefer "Noon" or "12:00 p.m." on team season pages? I recently had a discussion at the NFL WikiProject's talk page about a user that was reverting edits I'd made that changed "12:00 p.m." to "Noon" per MOS:TIME: Usually, use noon and midnight rather than 12 pm and 12 am. The conclusion was that, while "noon" is often preferred in prose, "12:00 p.m." is more easily readable/understandable in the context of a table or game summary box. I think it'd be good to have a decision one way or the other on this, so that we can have some consistency on the issue. Thoughts? PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 06:35, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

• I'd prefer tables be consistent for times and use 12:00 p.m., something similar to MOS:NUMNOTES: In tables and infoboxes, quantities are expressed in figures (Years in office: 5); but numbers within a table's explanatory text and comments follow the general rule.—Bagumba (talk) 06:40, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
• I also prefer "12:00 p.m." in tables for cell-to-cell consistency. Jweiss11 (talk) 06:47, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
• For what it's worth, I have no preference one way or the other, and I'd be happy to hop on AWB and implement changes based on the discussion here. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 07:20, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

I prefer "noon" for the simple reason that every time I see 12:00 p.m., I need to play the mental game of "is that noon or midnight". Less so in the context of a CFB schedule, but still Ostealthy (talk) 03:17, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

• For tables, I prefer 12:00 p.m. over noon. Cbl62 (talk) 16:29, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
  • I have the same reaction as Ostealthy, and that's why MOS:TIME prefers "noon" in article text. But then there's MOS:NUMNOTES as noted by Bagumba above. In addition to the passage Bagumba quoted, there's also "Comparable values should be all spelled out or all in figures, even if one of the numbers would normally be written differently" in the same section; if we're displaying "1:00 p.m." and "12:30 p.m.", etc., throughout that column, "12:00 p.m." is more consistent than "noon". In a football schedule, there's very little room for midnight/noon confusion; nobody's going to expect a college football game to be scheduled for midnight, local time. _``` t b w i l l i e _{`</sub> $1.25 <sub>`} 17:49, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Discussion at NSPORTS

There is currently a discussion at NSPORTS as to whether or not first-team All-American college football players should be presumed notable. If you have a view, one way or the other, the discussion can be found at Wikipedia talk:Notability (sports)#All-American for American football/Arena football/Canadian football. Cbl62 (talk) 16:26, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

The same issue is also under discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Drane Scrivener. Cbl62 (talk) 20:44, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

AfD: Douglas Legate Howard

There is an open AfD that the member of this project may be interested in, please see here. Thanks, Ejgreen77 (talk) 13:48, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

College football on the Main Page

1959 Michigan football team

College football made the Main Page today with the DYK hook "... that when the 1959 Michigan football team (pictured) defeated Ohio State, opposing coach Woody Hayes whirled and hurled pieces of clothing, drawing a comparison to a 'hot stripper'?" DYK regularly features articles on soccer and occasionally baseball, but American football DYKs have been rare in recent years. You can submit articles if you have a catchy hook and if the article meets one of the following three criteria: (1) newly created within the past seven days and 1500 characters of prose; (2) former stubs/redirects that have had a five-fold expansion in the past seven days; or (3) designated as a "Good Article" in the past seven days. Fuller details on eligibility can be viewed at WP:DYK. Cbl62 (talk) 16:51, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

Other recent examples of college football articles featured at DYK include:

• ... that Bobby Reynolds (pictured) was known as "Mr. Touchdown" after winning a promotional contest for the song "Mr. Touchdown, U.S.A."? (set for Main Page on March 4, nominated by User:Chetsford)
• ... that Utah Utes football player Ty Jordan died on Christmas Day, one day after being named the Pac-12 Conference newcomer of the year for 2020? (featured 12/27/20, nominated by User:Bagumba)
• ... that shortly after winning a conference tournament championship with Vanderbilt's soccer team, Sarah Fuller became the first woman to play football in a Power Five conference game? (featured 12/20/20, nominated by User:Bagumba)
• ... that 14 players and the coach of the 1970 Wichita State Shockers football team died when its "Gold" plane crashed in the Colorado mountains? (featured 9/27/20, nominated by User:Cbl62)
• ... that videos of Lady Tambourine (pictured) playing the tambourine at Southern Louisiana football games went viral in 2017? (featured 7/28/20, nominated by User:Binksternet)
• ... that in 1966, Baylor University student John Westbrook was the first African American athlete to play a game in the Southwest Conference of American football? (featured 5/10/20, nominated by User:Pdcook)
• ... that rivals Furman and Wofford played the first college football game in South Carolina on December 14, 1889? (featured 3/1/20, nominated by User:PCN02WPS)
• ... that J. Hunter Guthrie, president of Georgetown University, disbanded the university's football program because he considered it unprofitable and inconsistent with a Catholic university's mission? (featured 3/24/20)
• ... that Eastern Michigan University football head coach Chris Creighton has won American football games on three continents? (featured 1/18/20, nominated by User:Mackensen)

Cbl62 (talk) 18:46, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

Good work. I am wondering if the New articles section on the project page should be modified to only include DYKs to encourage production of them.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 01:55, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

Leave them. In theory, someone could use the list to see candidates that could still be nominated.—Bagumba (talk) 02:06, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

Woodrow Wilson

Was Woodrow Wilson a "head coach" at Wesleyan or would that fall under the auspices of WP:OR to claim that?-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 04:35, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Well, do any sources say he was a "head coach" at Wesleyan? The Woodrow Wilson article states, "He was also elected secretary of the school's football association". Jweiss11 (talk) 05:30, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Justin Lustig page

Hey I was wondering does being a D2 head coach give Justin Lustig, Vanderbilt’s current STC enough notability for a page? Bigmike2346 (talk) 14:03, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

WP:NCOLLATH affords presumed notability only to Division I head football coaches. Others would need to satisfy WP:GNG which means they would need to have received WP:SIGCOV in multiple, reliable, and independent sources. Cbl62 (talk) 15:46, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

Bull Lowe

Can anyone determine whether Bull Lowe and Bulger Lowe (see also this) are the same person? I'm trying to find a source for a "Bulger Lowe" in Fordham Rams football#Notable former players; so, if they are the same person, then I can just add a link to the "Bull Lowe" article instead. -- Marchjuly (talk) 04:58, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Hit up @Patken4:. they created the article for Bull Lowe and are still editing. But from everything it looks like they are the same person, just known more by Bulger. That an award is named after as well. Add to this, appears @Connormah: who is still around also, added the reference with this edit 06:45, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Ok found out they are the same person and went to Fordham University. Found by not going with Bull or Bulger but by "George Lowe". Mention by coach that Sergeant George Lowe was the best tackle in the Eastern United States and then here you can see Bull Lowe mentioned. Then in the 1917 article, I see a Bill Lowe as one of the captains. This Media guide was one of the references and you see on page 11, End George Lowe being the first player for the school drafted when he went with Frankford in the 1920 season, ended up playing 1920-27 for 5 different teams So you have George Henry Lowe, also known as Bull, Bulger and Bill Lowe.NZFC^(talk)(cont)

Thanks NZFC for finding all of that. Do you think the page should be moved to his real name since it's not clear if he's better known as "George", "Bull" or "Bulger"? -- Marchjuly (talk) 08:10, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

References

Yeah that's a good point, clearly his name while at this stage, I couldn't see any consistency to being known more by a nickname. Of the Bill, Bull and Bulger, it does appear that Bulger was the more common one, while the other two make me wonder if they are misreads of computer scanned newspapers. NZFC^(talk)(cont) 08:20, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

So went to move it after I had done a bit of adding and think needs to be a discussion on how best to name the article. My thoughts are his legal and most common name is George Henry Lowe Jr. with the most known of those nicknames and what his award is under, is Bulger. So going with George Henry "Bulger" Lowe Jr. as the name makes the most sense. Yet I don't know if you would use Bulger in the title and I believe you aren't meant to use Junior unless its source as such, which in this case it isn't, leaving us with George Henry Lowe (or George H. Lowe by some of the sources). Then we run into the next issue of George Henry Lowe already being redirected to George Lowe (American alpinist) who is recommended you don't confuse with George Lowe (mountaineer). Looking at the disambiguation page for George Lowe, I assume with go with either George Lowe (American football) or we use George Henry Lowe(American football)/George H. Lowe(American football), what are others thoughts? NZFC^(talk)(cont) 16:07, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

I think the best choice would be to go with WP:COMMONNAME which in this case seems to be George Lowe (American football). -- Marchjuly (talk) 03:25, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

Made the most sense to me as well, so did the move now to George Lowe (American football) and added to the disambiguation page. NZFC^(talk)(cont) 07:30, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

@NZFC: Thanks for your help in sorting this out and also for expanding the article. -- Marchjuly (talk) 23:47, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Drane Scrivener

For the first time in Wikipedia history, we have lost an FCS/Division I-A first-team All-American to AfD. If people believe that's not a desirable outcome, they need to pay attention to Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/American football. Cbl62 (talk) 14:52, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

Also Wikipedia:WikiProject College football/Article alerts. I would recommend that all members of this project add both of these pages to their watchlist to make it easy to monitor them. Ejgreen77 (talk) 17:43, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

I don't really consider this to be a great tragedy. I reserve the phrase "first team All-American" for those that are consensus picks; it is far too easy for someone to land on one rogue selector's first team for that to be the basis of a title of great merit. It does not seem improbable to me that a player who landed on one All-America team in the early '70s playing for a small school legitimately failed to receive adequate coverage to satisfy GNG. Ostealthy (talk) 00:16, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

"FCS/Division I-A" above should read "FBS/Division I-A" as Scrivener was with the 1972 Tulsa Golden Hurricane football team (who competed in the then-University Division) when he was named an All-American (or please clarify if otherwise). I'm not familiar with Scrivener or the history of All-America Team member articles, but I did notice that there are several other non-consensus first-team picks that appear in 1972 College Football All-America Team who do not have their own page on Wikipedia (e.g. Daryl White, Nebraska; Steve Brown, Oregon State; Conrad Graham, Tennessee), while all the consensus picks have pages. Dmoore5556 (talk) 01:14, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

HBCU Legacy Bowl

Hi all, a note to seek input on the the HBCU Legacy Bowl, announced today and slated to be broadcast on NFL Network in February 2022. It will be a new postseason all-star game. The active all-star games with their own articles are currently Senior Bowl, East–West Shrine Bowl, NFLPA Collegiate Bowl, and Hula Bowl, each of which are also nationally televised. Looking for input on if it seems appropriate to create an article now, or feels too soon, or ? Thanks. Dmoore5556 (talk) 00:42, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Dmoore5556, I'd say you're good to go ahead and create it. Team season articles are already being created for 2021, so I'd say you wouldn't be WP:TOOSOON since the game will be played at the conclusion of that season. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 01:45, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

PCN02WPS, thanks—created at HBCU Legacy Bowl. Currently a stub, we can add more info as it becomes available. Thanks. Dmoore5556 (talk) 07:02, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Template for deletion:Notre Dame Non-Varsity football navbox

Just disclosing that I recently nominated Template:Notre Dame Non-Varsity football navbox for deletion in case anyone from the CFB Wikiproject would like to participate. Best, GPL93 (talk) 16:34, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Proposed change in sports notability policy

A proposal is pending that would prohibit the creation of sports biographies unless supported by "substantial coverage in at least one non-routine source". In other words, articles supported solely by statistical databases would not be permitted, and at least one example of WP:SIGCOV would be required. If you have views on this proposal, one way or the other, you can express those views at Wikipedia talk:Notability (sports)#Fram's revised proposal. Cbl62 (talk) 18:32, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

See also Wikipedia talk:Notability (sports)#Proposal to tighten WP:NGRIDIRON. Cbl62 (talk) 23:27, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Consensus needed for inclusion of college athlete parent categories

There is a consensus discussion underway about whether or not to include a parent category (in this case Category:College men's soccer players in the United States) in addition to the specific school category (for example Category:Akron Zips men's soccer players). One school of thought is that college athletics category structures should be similar, but another is that individual sport projects should be free to chart their own paths on the matter. See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football#Use of parent category in addition to sub-category - consensus requested to join the discussion if you are so inclined. Rikster2 (talk) 12:06, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Unclaimed national titles in Infobox

Why is there an unclaimed national title parameter in Infobox NCAA football school? Is it really necessary to include it there when a) it isn't identified as an official national championship and b) in these cases even the school doesn't recognize it. To be clear I am not opposed to including it in the body of the article at all, and I know some schools are more "liberal" with their national championship claims than others. But per MOS:INFOBOX, aren't infoboxes are supposed to "summarize key features of the page's subject?" Is it a key element that a team might have a dozen championships they don't claim and likely cannot legitimately claim at any future point?-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 12:53, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Take a look at Kennesaw State Owls seasons

Hello, all. The page Kennesaw State Owls seasons appears to need some work. I am not too familiar with our college football content, but I'm pretty sure it should be located at List of Kennesaw State Owls football seasons (which is currently a redirect to Kennesaw State Owls football#Year-by-year results). Can someone confirm this and, if possible, execute the merge? Once the page is at the right title, there might be some notability, sourcing, and formatting issues to address.... Regards, BenKuykendall (talk) 02:41, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

BenKuykendall, the page in question was really quite poor, so I have redirected it to Kennesaw State Owls football#Year-by-year results for now (though that can be moved to a standalone page in time); it really added nothing, with three poorly formatted and already existing schedule tables (one of which was incomplete), and poorly formatted rosters for two seasons. Thanks for bringing this up, and I'd be happy to help in said breakaway page if you desire to work on that. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 03:18, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

@PCN02WPS: thanks for the quick action! I'm happy with your resolution, and have little desire to work on coverage in this area. From my POV, the individual season articles suffice. BenKuykendall (talk) 03:22, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

BenKuykendall, not a problem! FWIW, I agree that individual season articles are plenty good for that sort of thing. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 03:26, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Wait a second... WikiProject College sports?

See Category:WikiProject College sports. I knew that there was a contentious proposal a couple of years ago but nothing came of it. Perhaps someone could shed a light on what this is?-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 22:56, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Old football seasons question

I'm going through old tagged sports articles. There is a range of articles all tagged with sports notability concerns such as 1905 Geneva Covenanters football team (specifically related to Geneva): are these notable? Should they all be merged into decades like we see with other articles? Just curious as to what action I should take here. (Please reply with a ping.) SportingFlyer T·C 15:10, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

@SportingFlyer: I would keep them as single-season articles, but they need sourcing. Jweiss11 (talk) 15:33, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Why single-season? They're all sourced to the school record book and fail WP:GNG as written (if not actually), by decade may be a better (and more notable) way of organising especially since there's no prose. They seem like they were in the top division at the time so I didn't move to PROD. SportingFlyer T·C 15:39, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

If you check Newspapers.com, I'm sure you will find detailed coverage of most if not all of their games. See 1899 Amherst football team, which I recently created, for a comparable example of a now-D3 team. Jweiss11 (talk) 16:11, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

See also 1901 Geneva Covenanters football team. This level of sourcing should and can be done for the other years. Jweiss11 (talk) 16:14, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

• @SportingFlyer: My take: One could say that Geneva played in the "top division" in 1905, but that's somewhat misleading as there were no divisions at that time. The 1905 Geneva team played three games against teams that were generally recognized as elite at the time: a 0–38 loss to W&J; a 0–73 loss to Penn State; and a 0–12 loss to Pitt (then known commonly as WUP). All that said, what real governs is the extent of coverage. From my review, 1905 Geneva received sufficient coverage to meet the GNG bar, albeit barely. As for the idea of decade articles, the college football project has developed a consensus favoring season articles over decade compilations -- a principal reason being that season articles lend themselves more readily to incremental improvements including the addition of further narrative text, game summaries, roster information, postseason awards, and the like. Cbl62 (talk) 23:18, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Sourcing of the 1905 Geneva article has now been improved. Cbl62 (talk) 23:40, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Cheers, should I switch out the notability tags on the remaining Geneva articles with under-referenced tags then since they wouldn't be deleted at AfD? SportingFlyer T·C 11:59, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Ah, it's been done already. This leaves us with 2012 Dayton Flyers football team as the only remaining college season with a notability tag - may I please ask one of you to review/remove? SportingFlyer T·C 12:12, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Discussion at Template talk:List of college football program head coaches key § Changing abbreviations / symbols

 You are invited to join the discussion at Template talk:List of college football program head coaches key § Changing abbreviations / symbols. RunningTiger123 (talk) 02:29, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Wisconsin-Whitewater name

@Jschneids88: has been WP:Boldly moving articles relating to Wisconsin–Whitewater Warhawks football to "Whitewater." Just a heads up to the project, even a Wisconsin paper even uses "UW-Whitewater" here.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 18:57, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

COMMONNAME would dictate that Wisconsin–Whitewater (UW–Whitewater) would be the preferred name. Examples from the past day or so: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 19:37, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

AfD: Bruce Griffith

Bruce Griffith, an early player/coach for Franklin & Marshall has been nominated for deletion. Please see the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/B. Griffith. Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 02:00, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Rotary Lombardi Award vs Lombardi Award

@Rla2021:

A new editor is changing links[5] within articles of Lombardi Award recipients from pointing at Lombardi Award to the more formal Rotary Lombardi Award (which is a redirect). Per WP:COMMONNAME, that article appears to be correctly located at Lombardi Award. The purpose of these link changes is unclear. Revert or piping seems appropriate, thoughts? UW Dawgs (talk) 03:03, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Given that both of their first two edits (to the Lombardi Award page) were REVDEL'd, and there is no rationale given in the edit summaries of their changes, I'm inclined to agree. I don't see a good reason to go against COMMONNAME and use the formal name, especially when the article itself is located at Lombardi Award. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 03:28, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

This has flared up again over the last two days. From what I can gather, there are two organisations, The Rotary Club of Houston and The Lombardi Foundation. The Rotary Club have been giving out the award since 1970 (the current article) The Lombardi Foundation seems to be a new organisation (c.2017) that claimed ownership of the right to give the award. Legal stuff followed, and the Rotary Club appear to have won. The award hasn't been awarded since 2017 and is due to be awarded again in December 2021. The Foundation appear to be trying to turn the article so that it's about them instead of the rotary award.

At least that's my interpretation of it. I could be wrong on some details, but I think the gist of it is correct. Can someone with a more intimate knowledge of college football and Houston keep an eye on it please? Thanks. - X201 (talk) 19:08, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

GAR

West Virginia Mountaineers football, an article that you or your project may be interested in, has been nominated for a community good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Hog Farm _Talk 06:39, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Addition of team logos within conference membership table

@Jbg9981:

New editor is adding 10 to 20 60px-80px team logos to the conference articles, ex:

• Atlantic Coast Conference#Member universities [6]
• Mid-American Conference#Member schools [7]
• Mountain West Conference#Member schools [8]
• Pac-12 Conference#Member schools [9]

There has been one revert to date. While the logos are appropriate in articles about the sports teams of the university ("Arizona Wildcats"), the quantity here within these tables does seem excessive. The tables were already maxed on width, so now there is some extreme word wrapping, the table can be wider than the prose, and on mobile the issue is even more pronounced. Thoughts? UW Dawgs (talk) 02:19, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

The mix of whatever is free or convenient—ranging from logos and wordmarks—is inconsistent and tacky. Then there's the table width. The team color column seems trivial for the conference page too.—Bagumba (talk) 05:58, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. If logos were to be included at all, they shouldn't mix between primary marks and wordmarks. That being said, logos should not be included in the first place. No opinion on the colors column. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 17:36, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

New editor clearly read the above and has chosen to self-revert. UW Dawgs (talk) 21:57, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jadon Wagner

The above AfD presents a debate as to whether feature coverage of a football player should be disregarded as WP:ROUTINE. If you have views on this question, one way or the other, feel free to comment there. Cbl62 (talk) 18:31, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

CfD: Brooklyn Bulldogs football

I have nominated Category:Brooklyn Bulldogs football and a subcat for renaming. Please see the discussion here. Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 02:15, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Links to college football season disambiguation pages

A number of "[year] college football season" articles (e.g. 1972 college football season) were recently turned into disambiguation pages by UW Dawgs, distinguishing between different divisions. As a result, the links to disambiguation pages report is now dominated by these college football season disambiguation pages, with thousands of links altogether. These are not going to get fixed without a massive collaborative effort of some sorts... Lennart97 (talk) 08:01, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

I see that a discussion is already taking place about this issue at WT:WikiProject Disambiguation#College football dab. Lennart97 (talk) 12:42, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

TFD: college football standings

Three college football standings templates have been nominated for deletion. Please see the discussion at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2021 June 4#College Football Standings. Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 05:04, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Feedback on bot cleanup of NFL Draft tables

There is a pending request for a one-time bot cleanup of 100+ articles like "List of Central Michigan Chippewas in the NFL Draft" at Wikipedia:Bot requests#Cleanup of chronological data in NFL Draft tables. Review and feedback on the proposed cleanup is welcome at that location. UW Dawgs (talk) 14:52, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Athletic program articles and Infobox FBS and FCS links

@Son of Kenway:

Editor appears to be attempting to address inconsistencies within Infobox formatting of all athletic program articles (Ex, "Miami Hurricanes"). It appears Division I-FBS athletic program articles are either being updated with addition of the " / FBS" where missing,[10] or reformatted from "Division I (FBS)" to "Division I / FBS".[11][12]

Here is the new Infobox style being implemented, where the layout change to "Division I / FBS" reads like hybrid of "A / B" which is clearly inaccurate.

FBS: Miami Hurricanes

• division = [[NCAA Division I|Division I]] / [[NCAA Division I Football Bowl Subdivision|FBS]]) with Infobox render like "Division I / FBS"[13]

FCS: Eastern Washington Eagles

• division = [[Division I (NCAA)|Division I]] / [[Football Championship Subdivision|FCS]]) with Infobox render like "Division I / FCS"

No football: Gonzaga Bulldogs

• division = [[NCAA Division I|Division I]] with Infobox render like "Division I"

Here is the existing style:

FBS: Miami Hurricanes

• division = [[NCAA Division I|Division I]] ([[NCAA Division I Football Bowl Subdivision|FBS]]) with render like "Division I (FBS)"

FCS: Eastern Washington Eagles

• division = [[Division I (NCAA)|Division I]] ([[Football Championship Subdivision|FCS]]) with render like "Division I (FCS)"

No football: Gonzaga Bulldogs

• division = [[NCAA Division I|Division I]] with render like "Division I"

Reverting the recent changes would make the layout more intuitive in my view. All three examples are Division I and operate under the associated NCAA Division I rules. That should be clearly communicated. The original format of "Division I (FBS)" seems more intuitive as (FBS) is a parenthetical explanation that shows the football aspect of the entire athletic program is FBS, FCS, or "no team."

Thoughts? UW Dawgs (talk) 05:06, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

Parentheses seem more intuitive to me, as that communicates that "FBS" or "FCS" is contained within Division I and not some separate organization or entity. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 15:20, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

Montana–Montana State football rivalry

Some additional eyeballs on Montana–Montana State football rivalry would be appreciated. Enthusiastic new SPA editor is very intent on their versions of both spelling and facts. UW Dawgs (talk) 01:13, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Cannabis and sports

New stub: Cannabis and sports. Any project members care to help expand? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 17:55, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:NAIA independent schools#Requested move 6 July 2021

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:NAIA independent schools#Requested move 6 July 2021 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. -Killarnee (C•T•U) 21:17, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

AfD: Louisiana Tech Bulldogs football decade articles

I have nominated Louisiana Tech Bulldogs football, 1901–1909 and nine other Louisiana Tech decade articles for deletion after User:Patriarca12 and I created individual season articles for all the years in question. Please see the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Louisiana Tech Bulldogs football, 1901–1909. Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 18:50, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Lists of players in the NFL draft: Conference issues

In the pages within Category:Lists of National Football League draftees by college football team, I see a glaring issue that's been totally ignored, AFAIK. It also involves all of the templates within Category:American college football draftees navigational boxes.

The navboxes organize teams by their current conference affiliations. However, these do not necessarily reflect the conference each drafted individual played in during the season immediately before he was drafted. This affects the large majority of such lists and navboxes. I'll discuss only the six current featured lists within this WikiProject:

• No Arkansas player drafted before 1993 played in the SEC. All prior draftees played in the Southwest Conference. (While Arkansas formally joined the SEC in 1991, it played the 1991 football season in the SWC.)
• No East Carolina player drafted before 2015 played in The American. With the first ECU player having been drafted in 1951, the relevant affiliations are:
  • 1947–1961: North State Conference, now known as Conference Carolinas
  • 1962–1964: University Division independent (equivalent to today's FBS independents)
  • 1965–1976: Southern Conference (then University Division/Division I)
  • 1977–1996: Division I independent in 1977 (before the D-I football split), Division I-A independent (now FBS independent) thereafter
  • 1997–2013: Conference USA
• North Carolina: The ACC did not exist until the 1953 season. Before then, Carolina was in the SoCon.
• Oklahoma: Member of the Big Eight Conference (under its various names) from 1920 through the 1995 season, after which the Big 12 started play.
• Texas Tech: Also a founding member of the Big 12, it had the following prior affiliations:
  • 1932–1956: Border Conference
  • 1957–1959: University Division independent
  • 1960–1995: SWC
• UConn: An FBS independent since the 2020 season (which it opted out of due to COVID), its prior affiliations during the draft era were:
  • 1923–1946: New England Conference
  • 1947–1996: Yankee Conference
  • 1997–1999: Atlantic 10 Conference
  • 2000–2003: Division I-A independent
  • 2004–2012: Big East Conference
  • 2013–2019: American Athletic Conference

What should be done, if anything, about this? — Dale Arnett (talk) 08:40, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps the answer is WP:NAVBOX #4: There should be a Wikipedia article on the subject of the template. Their absence is probably an indicator that the grouping is not all that notable.—Bagumba (talk) 09:00, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

:@Dale Arnett:, @Bagumba: See Template:College football conference.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 13:50, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Sorry I misinterpreted the issue.–UCO2009bluejay (talk) 13:52, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

To clarify: The issue is more with the navboxes, specifically in that the lists of draftees for each college team includes individuals who played at said schools before they joined their current conferences. For example, you can only credit the SEC for producing Arkansas players drafted in 1993 and later. — Dale Arnett (talk) 01:27, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Dale, I'm not sure this is an issue. The same logic can apply to lists and navboxes for lists of seasons or coaches as well. Take Template:Southeastern Conference football team seasons for example. None of the Arkansas seasons before 1992 were seasons in the SEC. None of the teams that now play in the SEC played there before the conference's inaugural season in 1933. Using the current conference affiliations as an organizing principle for these navboxes seems okay to me for practical purposes, even though conference affiliations change over time. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:20, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Agreed with Jweiss, this is a non-issue. We group many things here on Wikipedia by current conference affiliation, because that's really the only practical way to do it, even though conference affiliations do change over time. A cursory glance at the History section of the main program articles should make it clear what years each team was affiliated with each historical conference, for anyone who may be confused. Ejgreen77 (talk) 06:03, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

AfD: William & Mary decade articles

I have nominated William & Mary Tribe football, 1910–1919 and four other William & Mary decade articles for deletion after having created individual season articles for all the years in question. Please see the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/William & Mary Tribe football, 1910–1919. Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 19:51, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Similarly, Delaware football, 1889–1899 and Delaware football, 1900–1909 still exist if anyone wants a project to split them into 21 new 189X-190X articles. See WP:COPYWITHIN re attribution before doing so. UW Dawgs (talk) 20:00, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

SMU and Tulane also need some breaking up. Jweiss11 (talk) 01:26, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

I generally favor splitting such decade articles into season articles. However, I also believe there are exceptions. For some schools, the early "seasons" consisted of one or two games per year in the 1880s and 1890s. I looked a few years ago at some of those cases and found such a paucity of information on these games that I decided it was not really productive to break up the decade articles. I don't recall for sure if Delaware was one of those cases, but it may have been. Cbl62 (talk) 13:02, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Richmond's program could really use being separated into individual seasons, in my opinion. 1930 Tulane is a handful of sources away from looking good. Cake (talk) 06:52, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

IP vandalism on CFB season articles

This IP user has been vandalizing college football season articles in little ways for months, like changing a game score or a ranking by one digit, I suppose so that they can giggle over the fact that they've inserted wrong info into Wikipedia. I fixed the articles on my watchlist and reported the IP, and it was blocked for 24 hours last week. Now they're at it again, and though I put in another report, no admin has acted on it. I mention this problem here because the IP has made many edits which have not yet been reverted and I'm sure that most of them are the same sort of subtle vandalism to scores and such. However, I don't have time to deal with this myself right now, so I thought perhaps somebody from this esteemed company might review the older edits and put in another AIV report as needed. Thanks... Zeng8r (talk) 16:47, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Horace B. Griffen

Not exactly a college football discussion, but there's an AfD for one of Arizona State's early head baseball coaches here. Participants in this project may want to weigh in. Jweiss11 (talk) 22:09, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

2021 Nebraska score links

See 2021 Nebraska Cornhuskers football team and previous discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College football/Archive 22#2018 Nebraska score links.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 00:54, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Point being (if I follow the archived discussion correctly) the current state of the 2021 Nebraska article is not consistent with consensus that was reached. The links to the ESPN box scores should be added via the source field within Template:CFB schedule, not embedded within the score field. Yes? Dmoore5556 (talk) 01:24, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Yes, embedded external links like that in the body of an article are not appropriate. I have removed them. Those references could be cited in the source field of the schedule table or, better yet, added further down in article in the "Game summaries" section, where appropriate. Jweiss11 (talk) 01:27, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

I am really tired. This was my attempt at posting a neutral message. But since this isn't a move or deletion discussion, yes.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 01:49, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

@Wscsuperfan: please take note of this discussion. Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 01:29, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

@Jweiss11: Okay...noted. Wscsuperfan

AfD: Richmond Spiders football, 1900–1909

I have nominated Richmond Spiders football, 1900–1909 for deletion. Please see the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Richmond Spiders football, 1900–1909. Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 21:55, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

AQ7

I notice that several articles are referring to the AQ7 merely as the WAC... I don't think that matches with how reliable sources are treating it? pʰeːnuːmuː →‎ pʰiːnyːmyː → ‎ɸinimi → ‎fiɲimi 22:39, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

• Yes, not just WAC. AQ7 consists of seven teams; four from the WAC and three from ASUN. See AQ7. Dmoore5556 (talk) 02:50, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
• (longer reply) In looking at several of the 2021 FCS team pages, I gather that the articles being referred to above are 2021 Central Arkansas Bears football team, 2021 Eastern Kentucky Colonels football team, and 2021 Jacksonville State Gamecocks football team, as the lead and infobox of each of those 2021 team pages lists then as WAC members. That is problematic, as each is currently a member of the ASUN Conference, and they continue to identify as such (see for example Lamont Earns First ASUN Player of Week Honor on the Central Arkansas site). I disagree with the "Western Athletic Conference (planned)" nomenclature used on those team's infoboxes, as here and now in the 2021 season they are ASUN members who are competing for an automatic playoff bid via AQ7 (which is not a conference), and should be noted as such. Comments from other editors? Dmoore5556 (talk) 03:18, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
  • Adding LUSportsFan and MKP2020, who have worked on the noted 2021 team articles. Dmoore5556 (talk) 04:16, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Ancient players

Clarence Deming might be the oldest one I know. Cake (talk) 13:02, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Michigan–Wisconsin football rivalry

The above article was created today by User:Hardenian. I think a case could be made that this is a notable series, but it's really not a "rivalry" IMO. Thoughts? Cbl62 (talk) 23:56, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

@UW Dawgs: This looks like another rivalry sock. Given the likelihood of sockpuppetry, I will not oppose if someone wants to nominate for deletion. Cbl62 (talk) 23:59, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

The editor in question User:Hardenian has now been blocked indefinitely for vandalism. See User talk:Hardenian. Anyone want to volunteer to nominate this article for deletion? Cbl62 (talk) 00:22, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

Virginia fight name before 1923

Seems the Virginia Cavaliers adopted the "Cavaliers" nickname in 1923; see https://virginiasports.com/traditions/. So, the Virginia football articles from 1887 to 1922 need to be renamed. I see a lot of references to the "Orange and Blue" prior to 1923 and couple mentions of the "Tigers" in the 1890s (see https://www.newspapers.com/clip/85294381/richmond-dispatch/, https://www.newspapers.com/clip/85310986/the-times/. You can see at Template:Virginia Cavaliers men's basketball navbox that the men's basketball articles prior to 1923 are named "YYYY University of Virginia men's basketball team" and acknowledge the Cavaliers nickname being initiated in 1923. Template:Virginia Cavaliers baseball navbox carries the Cavaliers nickname back to 1889.

Pinging in MisterCake—who's done lots of work on early Virginia football and all things early Southern football, Puritan Nerd—who's worked on the early Virginia basketball articles, and Billcasey905—who does a lot of work on college baseball. Thoughts about how we should name things? Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 00:12, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

As I'm familiar with Vanderbilt, and the 1919 game was a pretty big deal, I looked through accounts of it. Pretty consistently, it's Virginia or the Virginians. It looks like the basketball article does it right. Though, Orange and Blue would probably work as well, as the colors are typical in use of ancient fight names. In this case there is also the Wahoos. Cake (talk) 19:37, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Pretty open to a consensus. Happy to update baseball pages/navbox to whatever the consensus is. Based on others, I tend to like the basketball approach. Billcasey905 (talk) 19:30, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

AfD: The Dakota Four

I have nominated The Dakota Four for deletion. Please see the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Dakota Four. Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 20:50, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

List criteria discussion

There is a list criteria discussion started at Talk:List of college football coaches who coached games in stadiums named after themselves. Please weigh in.--Paul McDonald (talk) 14:46, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

Infobox college football team

I have noticed that there has been an addition to Template:Infobox college football team where there is a color banner at the top. While I don't see it as problematic, I wondered why it hasn't been added to say the basketball college templates and the others of the sort? Shouldn't these be consistent. Was this just a unilateral addition?-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 15:28, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

DaveTheBrave made the change. I don't believe there was any discussion beforehand. I don't mind this change either, although it is isn't great for teams whose colors haven't yet been added to Module:College color, e.g. Dickinson Red Devils football. But we ought to keep filling in the holes in that module. I'm all for bringing consistency between the college sports here. Jweiss11 (talk) 16:22, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Category tree needed

CFB fellas, I'll admit up front that I'm too lazy to create the category tree for Category:Eastern Football Conference (1965–1974) football standings templates, which I stumbled upon the other day. But wanted to let you know in case anyone wants to take the initiative. Grazie. SportsGuy789 (talk) 14:53, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

SportsGuy789 Thanks for the heads up. I went ahead and cleaned up the category tree there as I had created those standings templates back in January. Jweiss11 (talk) 16:31, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Season Articles Campaign

It's been six years since we launched the Season Articles Campaign. When we launched, only seven programs had full coverage of each of their seasons. We have made huge progress in those six years, making Wikipedia the preeminent source for college football history. Thanks to all who have contributed to the progress, including special thanks to the following editors who have each created more than 100 season articles (apologies to anyone who I've overlooked):

1. User:MisterCake: 1,593
2. User:Patriarca12: 1,081
3. User:Ocfootballknut: 1,032
4. User:Toll Booth Willie: 724
5. User:Bsuorangecrush: 550
6. User:PCN02WPS: 509
7. User:Ccbbws1999: 472
8. User:mark Staffieri: 456
9. User:UW Dawgs: 419
10. User:Ostealthy: 382
11. User:ChuckNoll vs Vince Lombardi: 350
12. User:Jrcla2: 312
13. User:Billcasey905: 295
14. User:Murphanian777: 289
15. User:Pvmoutside: 276
16. User:ZCash1104: 274
17. User:Comedian1018: 248
18. User:Jweiss11: 195
19. User:BeanieFan11: 146
20. User:AllisonFoley: 111
21. User:Strikehold: 111
22. User:UCO2009bluejay: 109

There is still work to be done, and if you are interested in helping, you can do so in a number of ways. One way is to adopt a team and work to improve stubs that lack adequate sourcing, narrative content, or cross-links to opponent season articles. Another is to create articles on Division I teams that still lack full coverage (you can find a list of such teams at Wikipedia:WikiProject College football/Season articles campaign). If you want advice on how to build a good article, feel free to ask here. User:Patriarca12 and User:Jweiss11 are also excellent mentors/models.

A word of caution: If you want to create season articles for teams below the Division I level, be aware that most such seasons will not satisfy the requirements of WP:GNG. GNG is satisfied if the season received significant coverage in multiple, independent, reliable sources. If you intend to create articles on lower level teams, be sure to include abundant sources showing that GNG is satisfied. Cbl62 (talk) 18:31, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

@Cbl62: thanks for spearheading these efforts and for acknowledging everyone here, not to mention creating thousands of season articles yourself, as you humbly omitted yourself from the top of list above. It's also worth a shout-out here to TheCatalyst31, who's been doing some nice work of late stubbing out season articles for Northern Illinois and Illinois State, and to Pittalum, who has been greatly expanding the Pittsburgh season articles up through 1930 thus far. With a bit of copy editing and some fleshing out of the lead, many of these Pittsburgh articles could be candidates for GA status. And thanks to everyone else who's pitched in here.

I would tweak Cbl's warning above a bit to say that sub-Division I seasons may well satisfy the requirements of WP:GNG, but that should be clearly demonstrated with abundant third-party sourcing.

Over the last couple years I've been working on fleshing out the standings templates for minor and defunct conferences. The one issue here is that when these templates get transcluded to articles like 1955 college football season en masse, we approach and sometime surpass the limit of "expensive parser function" calls by Template:Cfb link embedded inside many of those standings templates. The 1955 season article is very close to the limit (and has been over it in the recent past) and it's still missing standings templates for several conferences that were active at the time. It would help here if we could get some folks to concentrate on filling gaps in the 1930-ish to 1957-ish era to reduce pressure here. When the season articles get created, a bot updates the Template:Cfb link calls with a direct link to the new article and the "expensive parser function" calls drop. Jweiss11 (talk) 19:51, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

FBS season articles

Hi, I've contributed to the college football project in the past, and I was looking through team season articles for all FBS schools, and I noticed the following were missing/incomplete:

• Kentucky Wildcats (some seasons between 1978-1992 lack game logs)
• Buffalo Bulls (1894-1928, 1977-1992)
• Miami RedHawks (1910-1915)
• Ohio Bobcats (some seasons between 1902 and 1923)
• Northern Illinois Huskies (1899-1921)
• Georgia Southern Eagles (1924-1927)
• Troy Trojans (many seasons between 1909 and 1991)
• Arkansas State Red Wolves (many seasons between 1911 and 1989)
• Louisiana Ragin Cajuns (1908-1919)
• Texas State Bobcats (many seasons between 1922 and 2007)
• Middle Tennessee Blue Raiders (many seasons between 1930 and 1977)
• Western Kentucky Hilltoppers (many seasons between 1913 and 1995)
• North Texas Mean Green (many seasons between 1913 and 1994)
• Hawaii Rainbow Warriors (many seasons between 1909 and 1940)
• Memphis Tigers (1912-1957)
• Liberty Flames (1974-2008)
• New Mexico State Aggies (some seasons between 1910 and 1921)

I think it would be great to try and fill in these seasons, to give the project complete data on all current FBS teams. I plan to help with this when I can. --Hockeyben ^{(talk - contribs)} 00:41, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Excellent! If you need any help, feel free to post here. There are a number of folks here who can help answer any questions. Cbl62 (talk) 01:09, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

As you complete articles, it would be great also if you could remove them from the board at Wikipedia:WikiProject College football/Season articles campaign. Cbl62 (talk) 01:11, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Have knocked out Miami (OH), Georgia Southern, Louisiana, and New Mexico State. Also got single season articles for SMU. Hockeyben knocked out Kentucky. Looks like Patriarca got Memphis. That leaves Tulane, Temple, Delaware (which gets put in the South when independent? huh?) and the rest of the above. Cake (talk) 16:45, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Delaware has never been an FBS team and yes, they go in the South when independent as we are using regions as defined by the Census Bureau (https://www2.census.gov/geo/pdfs/maps-data/maps/reference/us_regdiv.pdf). Jweiss11 (talk) 19:24, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

A strange interpretation of the Mason-Dixon line eh? And it would seem to help navigability if nothing else for Delaware to have single season articles, but not like I'm a Delaware scholar to be dogmatic about it. Cake (talk) 01:38, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

@MisterCake: Delaware was a slave state.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 01:41, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

That is a good point that does help one's claim to being a Southern state historically - then again, I think Missouri is in its proper place in the midwest on our tables, and historically in the Big 8/12/Missouri Valley, despite now being in the SEC. I would be surprised to see Delaware covered in a Spalding's guide "southern football" section. In fact, DC and Maryland seem to be edge cases. Sometimes are, sometimes aren't. Similarly, it seems, the Confederacy's capital was in Richmond, and the Yanks or Feds had DC and the Navy. Cake (talk) 01:47, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

We've have season articles for Delaware from 1907 onward. I'm not opposed to breaking up the earlier years. Jweiss11 (talk) 02:33, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

@MisterCake: I have been fleshing out the Tulane articles and am through 1974 at this point. Should have them separate and cited over the next few weeks. Patriarca12 (talk)

Very cool. That and the newspapers account being renewed will probably motivate me to finish the 1925, 1929, and 1930 teams. Lester Lautenschlaeger on my all-name team. Cake (talk) 20:14, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Permission

May I have permission to change dates and edit week #’s on the rankings page to mirror that of the AP poll website? For example: they only have one poll for preseason/week 1 whereas the rankings page has 2 separate columns. Week 1 and preseason rankings were the same thing. The headers don’t match either with one another (AP poll website vs college football ranks Wikipedia page). What they refer to as week 4, Wikipedia refers to as week 3. Thanks. GoWarriors151718 (talk) 10:49, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

GoWarriors151718, which article(s) are you referring to? Jweiss11 (talk) 14:28, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

GoWarriors151718, those are templated so they might be a little more difficult to change; plus, we have dates listed to try to alleviate any potential confusion. Jweiss11, I'm fairly certain he's referring to the 2021 NCAA Division I FBS football rankings and other similar FBS/FCS articles, and the fact that AP labels their rankings by the week after they come out (i.e. the AP rankings that come out on the Sunday after week 3 are labelled "week 4" by AP and "week 3" by Wikipedia). PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 14:48, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

The more I look at these rankings tables, the more confusing it seems to be. I would be willing to try to change it so that it is somewhat less ambiguous. I just feel like the tables here should mirror those on the AP Poll website and the coaches polls that are released. Otherwise, I think that there won't be enough versions of the polls to fill out the grid. GoWarriors151718 (talk) 19:24, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

@GoWarriors151718: Is the discrepancy that you are referring to that what 2021 NCAA Division I FBS football rankings labels as "Week 1" for Sept 7 is called "Week 2" by AP and Coaches?—Bagumba (talk) 11:36, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

@Bagumba: Yeah. That is the discrepancy that I am referring to. I think one solution that I can do is that I can go through the Pac-12 teams and make sure that the rankings listed for the preseason and week 1 are the same since there was no poll change between preseason (weeks 0 and 1) and week 2. Or I could try and change the grids on the main college football rankings page to be the same as the AP website. Bottom line is that I am not sure what to do if anything. GoWarriors151718 (talk) 20:46, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

AfD: Tyler Rogers (gridiron football)

Tyler Rogers (gridiron football), a former starting QB at New Mexico State, has been nominated for deletion. Please see the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tyler Rogers (gridiron football). Jweiss11 (talk) 01:06, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Templates for discussion

Two NAIA standings templates have been deletion. Please see the discussions at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2021 October 20. Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 03:19, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

New categories for football players --- discussed?

I just noticed the creation yesterday of Category:Players of American football from Boston, a new sub-category of the long-used Category:Players of American football from Massachusetts. This is something new. If permitted, it will likely be followed for dozens of other cities as well. Has it been discussed? Do folks think it's a good idea? @Grutness: as the creator of the new category. Cbl62 (talk) 07:04, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

• Not discussed, no, but given the number already existing it seems perfectly logical to add more. It's hardly "new" - I'm just following on from the many many longstanding categories already there for sportspeople by specific sport by city, including a couple of dozen for American football (of which some, like Category:Players of American football from Los Angeles, have been around for quite some time). Given that it's done for every sport and every country in the world it seems odd if American football is expected to be a peculiar exception, especially as quite a number of by-city categories for the sport already exist. It's no different from, say Category:Footballers by city or town in England, Category:Basketball players by city or town in the United States, Category:Swimmers by city or town in Canada, or Category:Rugby union players by city or town in New Zealand, and its not as if the players are being removed from the (often huge) by state categories - they're simply being put into subcategories of them. Grutness...wha? 07:09, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

If this is to be adopted what is the parameters for sub dividing them into cities? Are there any guidelines to which cities should be included? Based upon the other sports it seems rather arbitrary. Futhermore, this whole idea seems like WP:OVERCAT WP:NARROWCAT to me.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 17:18, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Narrowcat... and yet some of the categories have several hundred members? I agree some lower limit would be useful for category size (higher than the usual accepted category minimum of five articles), but it's clear than in many cases such a category is distinctly useful, given the often huge Category:Sportspeople from Foo-city and Category:Players of American football from Foo-state categories. And as I said, it seems peculiar that one sport in one country should not have this sort of scheme where all others do. Grutness...wha? 23:25, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

A related basketball CfD was closed as "no consensus" last year.—Bagumba (talk) 17:45, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

And the result has been numerous basketball city categories created since, mostly by Grutness. I think it’s over categorization but if it’s allowed for basketball there certainly is no reason these shouldn’t be used for football - the same logic should apply to both sports Rikster2 (talk) 23:56, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Well, as I pointed out, it's used for all other sports. It's just that for some reason the US - and US specific sports like gridiron and basball - have lagged behind everyone else. And, although many of them havce been created by me, I was just following on a scheme that others started. Grutness...wha? 02:57, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Category:College football winless seasons - deletion discussion

If any interested editors want to weigh in one way or the other, Category:College football winless seasons is up for deletion here. SportsGuy789 (talk) 20:50, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Discussion has been re-listed to gain further consensus - here. SportsGuy789 (talk) 17:31, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

1959 Texas A&I Javelinas football team

Unsure how to handle something. All major sources indicate that the 1959 Texas A&I team had only one loss -- a loss to Stephen F. Austin. However, in checking contemporary newspaper sources, they report that the Javelinas also lost to Howard Payne. See here. I am inclined, based on this, to change the Howard Payne game to a loss and to adjust the team's record to 11-2 instead of 12-1. But I'm concerned I may be missing something. Like maybe the game was later forfeited. Suggestions? Cbl62 (talk) 19:53, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

• @Cbl62: good guess: it was forfeited a few weeks later after Howard Payne determined that they had an ineligible player. Mackensen (talk) 22:03, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Good research. Thanks, Mack! Cbl62 (talk) 22:06, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Little All-America college football teams

I began yesterday building articles on the "Little All-America college football teams" issued each year by the Associated Press recognizing the best small college players. The Little All-America teams have provided early recognition to many of the greats, including Walter Payton, Terry Bradshaw, Shannon Sharpe, Bulldog Turner, Joe Stydahar, and Willie Lanier, among others. Anyone interested in helping with the effort is welcome to do so. Potential tasks include (i) linking to existing bio articles of players receiving the honor, (ii) creating bio articles on Little All-Americans (e.g., Nate Clark) who have received enough WP:SIGCOV to pass WP:GNG, and (ii) creating articles for red-linked years shown in the template below:

Cbl62 (talk) 18:52, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

If accurate, this can help.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 01:27, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

I've been using it as a reference. It's generally accurate, though sometimes the names aren't accurately recorded. Also unclear if it's a reliable source, so we need to support any articles with the contemporaneous AP reports, which are not hard to find (they came out in the first half of December each year). Cbl62 (talk) 02:04, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Denoting NCAA and NAIA national championships in infoboxes

Cbl62 and I have been discussing how to denote NCAA and NAIA national championships in infoboxes for team season articles such as 2019 North Dakota State Bison football team, 2017 Mount Union Purple Raiders football team, 2019 West Florida Argonauts football team, and 1969 Texas A&I Javelinas football team. Should we write "NAIA national champion" or "NAIA champion" and "NCAA Division II national champion" or "NCAA Division II champion"? It's worth considering the proper names of these championships:

• NAIA Football National Championship and NAIA Division II Football National Championship
• NCAA Division I Football Championship, formerly NCAA Division I-AA Football Championship
• NCAA Division II Football Championship
• NCAA Division III Football Championship

Note that the NAIA championships explicitly contain the word "National" whereas the NCAA championships do not, while both acronyms (NAIA and NCAA) implicitly contain "National". When we assemble a phrase like "NAIA national champion" or "NCAA Division II national champion", which are not proper nouns, is the "national" redundant? Jweiss11 (talk) 20:37, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

The issue arose in connection with inclusion of an "NAIA national champion" banner in the infobox for season articles I've been building (37 so far!) for teams that won the NAIA Football National Championship. Jweiss11 seeks to remove "national" so that the banner would simply read "NAIA champion". I believe the infobox banner denoting "NAIA national champion" is more appropriate and accurate for multiple reasons:

First, the NAIA has since 1956 called its football playoffs the NAIA Football National Championship. The winner of those playoffs is by definition the "NAIA national champion".

Second, per the principles underlying WP:COMMONNAME, "NAIA national champion" properly reflects the manner in which the winner of the playoffs have been referenced in contemporary press accounts. E.g., [14], [15], [16], [17], [18], [19], [20], [21], [22], [23], [24], [25], [26], [27], [28], [29]. (These are just a few examples from about 80,000 hits using the term "national champion" to describe the winner of the NAIA football playoffs.)

Third, the "NAIA national champion" notation accurately reflects the reality of the situation. The NAIA playoffs select teams from different regions. There was historically a Western semifinal and an Eastern semifinal. Those two regional champions then met to determine a "national" champion of NAIA football. Omission of "national" would only serve to create ambiguity.

Fourth, the "national champion" notation is supported by consistency across our Wikipedia articles and categories on the topic. E.g., NAIA Football National Championship and Category:NAIA Football National Champions.

These points IMO pretty clearly demonstrate that the "NAIA national champion" is accurate and proper as applied to teams winning the NAIA Football National Championship. Cbl62 (talk) 20:52, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Cbl62 You wrote "NCAA" a couple times above. Did you mean "NAIA" in those instances? Jweiss11 (talk) 21:48, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. I fixed it. Cbl62 (talk) 21:50, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Great topic to bring up. While personally I prefer just NCAA Division III champion or NAIA champion, I think it would be best to include national champion just like we would on FBS' consenus national champion. Not only does it standardize it among all national championships. But Wikipedia is for a general populous base, not just those who have an interest or understanding of college football. When keeping this idea in mind I think it would be best to include national.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 03:19, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

Furthermore there are some people that casually watch college football that might not recognize that NAIA is not a conference but a national governing body. I am not being disingenuous.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 03:23, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

I hadn't even considered UCO's point of view but I think it's a good one - if we want to make things as easy to comprehend for non-CFB fans as possible, then including "national" (even if it's a bit redundant) would be a good think, especially since there are some conference names that also end with "Athletic Association" and the like (CIAA, MIAA in Division II, MIAA in Division III, SAA). To some readers not as familiar with the conference/national champion system, "NCAA" and "NAIA" may not stand out as being different than "MIAA", for example. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 07:13, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Nice story

Every now and then, we come across inspiring college football stories that go beyond wins and losses. One such story is the 1955 Hillsdale Dales football team -- an undefeated team that voted to decline a Tangerine Bowl bid because the bowl organizers insisted that the team's four black players (including national scoring leader Nate Clark) would have to stay home. There's also a decent student documentary on the team that can be viewed here. Cbl62 (talk) 13:22, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Cbl62, nice work on this and thanks for the heads up. Jweiss11 (talk) 17:09, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Early CCNY season articles

Our early articles on the CCNY football team are highly problematic in that, with one exception, they lack any reliable sources:

• 1873 CCNY Lavender football team - this one is the gem of the group as the single referenced game is actually supported by a reliable source -- SR/College Football
• 1875 CCNY Lavender football team - sourced entirely to a blog ("Lucky's Amazing Sports Lists") of dubious reliability
• 1876 CCNY Lavender football team - sourced entirely to the same "Lucky's Amazing Sports Lists"
• 1878 CCNY Lavender football team - sourced to "Lucky's Amazing Sports Lists" and to a New York Herald article that says the boys from CCNY didn't show up for a scheduled game with Stevens, resulting in a "scratch game" being played with some Columbia students. In other words, the cited source seems to show that there was no game with CCNY.
• 1880 CCNY Lavender football team - sourced entirely to "Lucky's Amazing Sports Lists"
• 1881 CCNY Lavender football team - sourced entirely to "Lucky's Amazing Sports Lists"
  

I don't like to see these articles deleted, as teams playing in these earliest years of American football are historically interesting and potentially notable, but I've looked for reliable sources and had no success. Anyone who wants to rescue these articles needs to come up with reliable sources to support them. Without such sourcing, they really have no place on Wikipedia and should be deleted or redirected. @MisterCake: @BeanieFan11: @ChuckNoll vs Vince Lombardi: as the creators of these articles. @力: whose 2017 effort to redirect one or more of these articles was reversed. Cbl62 (talk) 02:55, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

I found some sourcing for the 1878 and 1881 articles. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:22, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

I tried to find results for the 1876 season, which I created. In my search I found one game (Columbia) mentioned in College Football Data Warehouse [30], which I believe is reliable, and one other game in the blog website (that game is not listed in CFB Data Warehouse). My newspapers.com search did not bring up much. BeanieFan11 (talk) 03:35, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

An article for CCNY Beavers football ought to be created. Any seasons not deemed notable enough for their own article could be redirected and detailed there. Patriarca12 (talk · contribs) built out the majority of the season articles from 1922 to 1950, which are well sourced. Oddly, CCNY's final head coach, Irving Mondschein, was not the same person as Irving Mondschein, who was coaching at Lincoln in Pennsylvania at the same time! See 1950 CCNY Beavers football team. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:43, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

I still feel that these are problematic; they are presenting "seasons" using a modern lens that isn't supported by contemporaneous sources. There also just isn't enough coverage for stand-alone per-season articles. However, I have enough other things I would rather care about that I don't intend to say or do anything more than this one comment on this topic. User:力 (powera, π, ν) 16:40, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

User:力 has a point. And the sources being brought forward do not appear to constitute WP:SIGCOV. My suggestion would be to combine these into two decade articles: 1873-1879 (a grand total of 10 games); and 1880-1889 (a grand total of 26 games). Our project has trended away from decade articles, but when the seasons mostly comprise one to three games with a dearth of in-depth coverage, decade articles would be the better approach IMO -- and more defensible from a WP:GNG perspective. Any objection to this from those most active in building the CCNY articles? @Patriarca12: @MisterCake: @BeanieFan11: @ChuckNoll vs Vince Lombardi: Cbl62 (talk) 19:00, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

Black college football national champion season articles

Hola, fellas. I'm well aware you've all got your own priorities as far as season articles needing creation, but I just noticed that there are a number of redlinks on {{Black college football national champion navbox}}. I feel like these are low-hanging fruit re: clearly notable, much needed major season articles. If I can find time to jump in and create an article or two to help the cause, I will. But if there are any CFB editors who are unsure of their next strategic initiative, maybe some of these season articles could be your inspiration? SportsGuy789 (talk) 20:19, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

A worthwhile effort. Cbl62 (talk) 20:38, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

That looks interesting, I'll see what I can do. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 21:50, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

That's a good idea, and I was thinking about working on those once I finish my current project with the Illinois colleges. Our coverage of HBCU football is a little lacking in general; we're also missing articles on a lot of the seasons in this list of HBCU dynasties, along with Florida A&M's 2004 season where they attempted and failed to join Division I-A. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 23:17, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

Coaching years

We have a new trend that may become more common of new head coaches getting hired during the current season, but not becoming the coach of record until the following season. Jim L. Mora, Clay Helton, and Joey McGuire are all examples from this year. My sense is that the infobox should list 2022 as the actual start year, because we generally use the season year and not the calendar year. Right now, Helton says 2022, McGuire says 2021, and a few of us have been reverting on Mora. I believe all three programs have stated that the interim coaches will finish out the season. Curious what others think. Mackensen (talk) 04:55, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

I think "coach of record" is a good way to put it - I'd think that if Mora got officially hired but an interim coach finished the season, we wouldn't list Mora as having started until 2022. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 07:08, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

I agree. We should go by "coach of record". Infoboxes and navboxes should reflect years in which a particular coach was credited with at least one game decision. Jweiss11 (talk) 17:20, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Technically, Mora is an assistant coach for the remainder of 2021, before taking over as head coach.[31]—Bagumba (talk) 10:01, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Old regional athlete trophies or cups

There is the Porter Cup and the Norris Cup. Do we know more about them? Also, do we know of any others like them? Several editors are more experienced with the midwest and the far west than I am. Cake (talk) 18:03, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

• W. J. Voit Memorial Trophy awarded by the Helms Athletic Foundation from 1951 to 1978 to the outstanding college football player on the Pacific Coast. I think there were other such annual trophies issued by Helms. I visited the LA84 Foundation library in Los Angeles a few years ago where some are on display. Cbl62 (talk) 12:29, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Coach navboxes

I was wondering what we should do in the event that a program was suspended for a World War, or COVID in regards to a coach navbox when the same coach preceded and succeeded the missing seasons? I don't think we have been consistent with current programs that have suspended the 2020 season. Should we a) have the coaches' tenure be split like it was in WWII era coaches, ex. Randy Edsall (1999–2010)... Randy Edsall (2017–2019) No Team (2020) Randy Edsall (2021), b) omit the missing seasons ex, Randy Edsall (2017–2021), or c) combine the coaches tenure regardless of years omitted, this could even be for non-consecutive coaching tenures, an example of this is Todd Whitten, the head coach at Tarleton State, where it would say Todd Whitten (1996, 2000–2004, 2016– ).-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 01:48, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Examples of this inconsistency, current Georgia see WWI, current UCONN see Covid era.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 01:53, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

B Omit missing seasons within one coaching tenure. A navbox is for navigation—it doesn't need to get into technicalities or clutter with footnotes. Details should be available in the related team article or bio.—Bagumba (talk) 02:04, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

@Cbl62:, @Jweiss11:, @Paulmcdonald:.-Thoughts?-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 04:31, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Note that the standard formatting for these navboxes was established in late 2010 when we eliminated redundant succession boxes that included "technicalities" about years in which no team was fielded. The formatting is intended to combine the best elements of those deprecated succession boxes with the preexisting versions of the navboxes all in one efficient place. This standard was then rolled out to many other areas of North American sports. I support maintaining this status quo. Jweiss11 (talk)

I forget the specific names, but there are instances during WWII where (a) coaches went to war for four years, had someone fill in as coach during their military service, and then returned to their position after the war, or (a) programs went dark during the war and then resumed after hiatuses of two to four years. It strikes me as appearing historically accurate in those cases to display a continuous coaching tenure from, say 1937-1948 when it is actually 1937-1941, 1945-1948. Cbl62 (talk) 12:36, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

It looks to me like we "have" a standard, we just need to do the work to meet it. I think Jweiss11 has summed it up nicely.--Paul McDonald (talk) 12:42, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of several of my creations

Hello, I've been recently creating articles for historical NFL draft picks (e.g. Wally Garard, Jack Kraynick) and a few college football players who either easily meet GNG (Frank Gore Jr.) or meet NCOLLATH (Cain Madden, Tiawan Mullen) and Hyperwave11 nominated several of them for speedy deletion under A7, which I think is absolutely ridiculous! Is there a way these tags can be removed before being deleted? BeanieFan11 (talk) 00:19, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

See User_talk:BeanieFan11. As these articles stand, none nominated pass ncollath. Hyperwave11 (talk) 00:22, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Actually, multiple do meet NCOLLATH. BeanieFan11 (talk) 00:23, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

@Hyperwave11: Regardless of whether the athletes in question pass GNG/NCOLLATH or not, none of them qualify for speedy deletion under A7, which is reserved for articles that don't make a credible assertion of notability. All of the articles at least claim that their subject is notable through their football career. If you disagree with those claims, the next step is to take the article to AfD to discuss whether the subject is actually notable. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 00:32, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Understandable. Will do Hyperwave11 (talk) 00:35, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Polls or CFP?

What is the project's consensus on the use of Poll rankings or CFP once the CFP rankings are available? My understanding was that the consensus was to use the CFP Rankings once those are available (alas, the archive is too extensive for me to easily search to verify this). There is a user at the Big Ten's standings table template who continues reverting to the use of the AP Poll: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:2021_Big_Ten_Conference_football_standings If this is the consensus please advise, otherwise I am left wondering what to do to contain this. MrArticleOne (talk) 17:32, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

1955 Hillsdale

On the main page now " ... that the undefeated 1955 Hillsdale Dales football team declined a Tangerine Bowl bid because the bowl insisted that four black players—including national scoring leader Nate Clark—stay home?" Proud of this one. Cbl62 (talk) 01:00, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

University of Oklahoma fight name

Hey, I have long known that Oklahoma hasn't always had Sooners as its fight name. This article claims that OU adopted "Sooners" in 1908. I was wondering if anybody wouldn't mind helping to find when OU used "Rough Riders" and "Boomers" so the 1895-1907 seasons can be properly named? Thanks-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 04:38, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

I ran some quick searches on Newspapers.com (limited to Oklahoma newspapers) and found the following raw hits:

• 1902: "sooners" (3,560), "rough riders" (1,116), "boomers" (586)
• 1903: "sooners" (3,667), "rough riders" (731), "boomers" (726)
• 1904: "sooners" (5,186), "rough riders" (1,243), "boomers" (927)
• 1905: "sooners" (7,025), "rough riders" (2,354), "boomers" (1,471)
• 1906: "sooners" (8,459), "rough riders" (2,696), "boomers" (1,527)
• 1907: "sooners" (8,209), "rough riders" (2,304), "boomers" (1,288)
• 1908: "sooners" (7,350), "boomers" (1,288), "rough riders" (1,094)

After doing the searches, I realized they're not very reliable, as "sooners" was used much more broadly beyond the Oklahoma football program. The same also is true with respect to "rough riders". A more in-depth analysis is needed to figure out which nickname actually predominated. Cbl62 (talk) 06:04, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Rankings on yearly team pages question

If a team is ranked in the AP poll but not the CFP rankings after those come out, do we consider them ranked for the schedule and game summary sections and put their AP ranking or does the CFP ranking take priority and the team is considered unranked?

For example, in 2021 Penn State was ranked #22 or #23 in the AP poll but unranked in the CFP. On the Michigan page, this has been edited multiple times, so looking for clarification. Thanks! SilverPlacebo15 (talk) 06:04, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

My impression is that we use AP until the first CFP rankings come out, and then from there CFP takes precedence. I know CFP is used in game summaries on bowl game pages and the like. So, to answer your question, I believe you'd be correct in saying that a team ranked in the AP but unranked in the CFP would be considered unranked. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 06:15, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

AfD: List of college football coaches who coached games in stadiums named after themselves

List of college football coaches who coached games in stadiums named after themselves has been nominated for deletion. Please see the discussion here. Jweiss11 (talk) 23:40, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Question about the lead of an article

If a player is currently on a roster but has not yet played, shouldn't the lead mention that he is on the team? Because Onel5969 keeps reverting my edits on Myles Adams, claiming "until he plays, he's not on the team". BeanieFan11 (talk) 23:45, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

For him to be considered to have played for a team, he must have actually played for a team. If a player is put on the roster, never plays, and then is dropped from the roster, he was never in the league. Oh, and by the way, he's on the practice squad, not on the roster of the team. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 00:28, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Agreed, that's a player on the practice squad. The player could move up (many do) and the player could be notable already (some are). No opinion from me on that particular case.--Paul McDonald (talk) 15:25, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Dygert / Dygart

@Paulmcdonald: @Jweiss11: George B. Dygart and George Dygert. Same person? Cbl62 (talk) 06:31, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

• Could be, good catch. Let's put that on the list to check.--Paul McDonald (talk) 14:05, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

I've confirmed it's the same guy and that Dygert is the correct spelling. Added some sourcing to the Dygert article. Any objection to a redirect? Cbl62 (talk) 14:47, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

None from me, seems completely non-controversial and in the best interest of Wikipedia.--Paul McDonald (talk) 15:23, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

I redirected George B. Dygart. In a similar situation, it appears that Nate Duffy and Ignatius M. Duffy could be the same person. Jweiss11 (talk) 17:09, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

A number of open AfD for college football head coach

A number of stubby articles for college football head coaches have been nominated for deletion. Please the following discussions:

• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mike Mayerske
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Frank Masters
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bill Latto
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Roman Krawchuck
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Randolph Howard
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/J. E. Bradshaw
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/T. G. Yearwood

Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 16:52, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Three other CFB coach articles that were not mentioned above are also being discussed at AFD, see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Courtland Pollard, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fred Chenoweth, and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Henry Canine. BeanieFan11 (talk) 18:35, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Consensus conversation: College of Charleston versus Charleston

Please see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College Basketball#"College of Charleston" or just "Charleston" and weigh in. As the college football, basketball, and baseball projects should be aligned, it'd be ideal if members from all of them participated. Thank you. SportsGuy789 (talk) 23:55, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

How soon is WP:TOOSOON?

I was under the impression that the project consensus was to wait to create articles for the next year until this season has concluded. That is, 2022 season articles shouldn't be started until the national championship game has ended. Jpp858 has been creating a good number of these 2022 articles - should we be waiting or has this consensus changed? PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 18:50, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Sorry I did not know if a consensus was made about it. I created articles after seeing the Alabama and Florida were created. The articles I’ve created I've included sourcing other the general FBschedules source that is placed on each article. Programs that has not announced I have not created a page for and I agree the articles should not be created until after their program season. I can hold out until after the season is over. --Jpp858 (talk) 19:11, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes, we're supposed to wait until the 2021 season is over on January 10 to begin making 2022 season articles. But I don't have the heart to thwart efforts to get started a little early. Nevertheless, best to hold off and work on the 150+ years of college football that has already happened! Jweiss11 (talk) 00:30, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

RFC that could affect this project

There is a titling RFC at Wikipedia talk:Article titles that will affect many articles at this project. There was discussion of making the RfC handled bit by bit before all projects understood the ramifications with entertainment being singled out next in a deleted draft, and other projects after that. Whether you agree or don't agree please join in the discussion for this massive Wikipedia change. Fyunck(click) (talk) 10:40, 13 December 2021 (UTC)