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Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates/August 2018

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August 31

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August 31, 2018 (2018-08-31) (Friday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

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(Closed) RD: Amanda Kyle Williams

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Stale. Black Kite (talk) 23:50, 3 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Amanda Kyle Williams (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://www.ajc.com/lifestyles/amanda-kyle-williams-best-selling-crime-writer-dies/cNzrcW3xQWnfluu31CAkYM/
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Fully referenced to reliable secondary sources MurielMary (talk) 10:47, 3 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) RD: Carole Shelley

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Article: Carole Shelley (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/carole-shelley-dead-one-pigeon-sisters-odd-couple-was-79-1139227
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: sourced to secondary sources MurielMary (talk) 21:09, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD:Susan Brown (American actress)

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Article: Susan Brown (American actress) (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://variety.com/2018/tv/news/susan-brown-dead-dies-general-hospital-1202924125/
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Sourced to secondary sources MurielMary (talk) 10:34, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted blurb) RD: Alexander Zakharchenko

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Article: Alexander Zakharchenko (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination
Blurb:  An explosion in Donetsk kills Alexander Zakharchenko, leader of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ An explosion in a café in Donetsk kills Alexander Zakharchenko, leader of the Donetsk People's Republic, (pictured) in an apparent assassination.
Alternative blurb II: ​ The leader of the Donetsk People's Republic, Alexander Zakharchenko (pictured), is assassinated by bomb explosion in a café in Donetsk.
News source(s): The Independent, AP, BBC. Reuters, dpa
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Appears to be well sourced. Added (20:45, 31 August 2018 (UTC)) a blurb for your consideration. Conflicting narratives make the agent of the assassination unclear; also, should the DPR's support from Russia be noted? Hameltion (talk, contribs) 16:03, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support blurb not because of his importance but as an event (fingers are already being pointed to Russia). I think many already are calling this an assassination, and that's clearly news. To that end, I don't know if we have enough to support a separate article on the assignation as there's certainly going to be an investigation of this. --Masem (t) 19:07, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb Very important person in the Ukrainian crisis. --Bruzaholm (talk) 19:15, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment – I'm inclined to say RD only due to Zakharchenko's limited notability in the Eng.-lang. world, but since it's an assassination I won't oppose a blurb if one garners a consensus. (AP, BBC, Reuters, dpa added as sources above.) Sca (talk) 20:30, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment on proposal The proposed blurb is sufficient. In response to "should the DPR's support from Russia be noted?" I don't feel that this would be necessary as the users can read about that in the linked article; as someone who has frequented articles on entities with limited recognition, it seems excessive to describe in detail the belligerents of a territorial dispute if the subject isn't the territory or its dispute (for example, not every Abkhazia article needs to mention how it's recognized by some countries but not most of the UN and was supported by Russia in the war unless the article is about the history of the dispute). In this case, the news story is about how an explosion killed the president of a self-proclaimed republic. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 21:19, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb per above. Very notable death (possible assassination, and head-of-state of an un-recognized state). Davey2116 (talk) 21:47, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
support not because of the main nature of an unrecognized state but because of the potential for an uptick in war where its been somewhat frozen lately. Also don't need self-proclaimed as that should be on the DPR link.Lihaas (talk) 23:14, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose there I go again, "obstructing" the speedy post of a sub par article about a "very important" subject by actually checking the refs in the article. I don't have time to check the whole thing, first paragraph in "political career" was sub-par enough for me. As for "importance" I'm seeing today Syria, Yemen, a stabbing in Amsterdam, but I don't see the assassination of the self-appointed leader of an unrecognized state. I'm clearly outnumbered there, but please, check the refs and don't post a puff piece. Thanks! --LaserLegs (talk) 21:36, 1 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Concerns regarding quality can be addressed (and it appears that they already have been addressed), but I wouldn't agree with the rationale for lack of importance. I found no shortage of mainstream international coverage about this death. Zakharchenko was not self-appointed, and if you're finding no coverage then I'm not sure what sources you're using because we already have quite a few in the sources section of this nomination. I also don't see how it's a "puff piece." With all due respect, the way you worded that leads me to believe that the War in Donbass isn't an event that you personally follow, but that doesn't make it any less important internationally. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 22:35, 1 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I picked one paragraph and poked it full of holes, dunno or care about the rest, don't really care that much about the subject, just trying to keep BLP vios off the main page (WTF does an arrested "freelance journalist" have to do with human rights abuses in general or specifically with Zakharchenko?). $0.02 anyway this'll be posted in no time. --LaserLegs (talk) 23:13, 1 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's reasonable, though my !vote remains support. ITN nominations tend to shine a spotlight on problems that not many would notice had they not been in the news, so it would be beneficial for editors to see what they can do to improve it whether it gets posted or not, but I don't see any major concerns as I go through the article, only minor tweaks that anyone could quickly fix. (by the way, I've removed the part about the freelance journalist, you're right that it didn't relate to Zakharchenko) Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 23:31, 1 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

August 30

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August 30, 2018 (2018-08-30) (Thursday)
Business and economy

Disasters and accidents

Law and crime

Politics and elections

Science and technology

(Posted) RD: Ray (wrestler)

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Article: Ray (wrestler) (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Perhaps it says something about the priorities of Wikipedia editors when we have a 4000+ word article on a female wrestler whilst the article of engineers and scientists lie neglected... I can't say I have read it thoroughly but what I did read was OK and it seems to be thoroughly sourced - Dumelow (talk) 16:45, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Gary Friedrich

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Article: Gary Friedrich (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/gary-friedrich-dead-ghost-rider-creator-was-75-1138694
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Not nearly as significant in the history of comics as Marie Severin I will concede, although for reasons difficult to understand, his Ghost Rider has become a much-loved character. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 07:48, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) RD: Costa-Gavras

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Fake news :P --Tone 14:29, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Costa-Gavras (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Houston Chronicle
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Oscar-winning filmmaker. Two sections still need sources, remainder seems fine Fram (talk) 13:59, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Fram: - apparently his death is fake news? Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 14:05, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, thanks. I hope I can be forgiven for not spotting it as fake news, since it was an Associated Press report which spread the news[1]? But obviously this RD can be closed! Fram (talk) 14:24, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

August 29

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August 29, 2018 (2018-08-29) (Wednesday)
Disasters and accidents

International relations

Law and crime
  • Air Canada reports a data breach in which passport information was accessed. (BBC)

Politics and elections

Sports

(Closed) RD: Paul Taylor

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Stale. Black Kite (talk) 10:51, 3 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Paul Taylor (choreographer) (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): CBS News
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Major figure in American modern dance. Career that spanned more than six decades. CoatCheck (talk) 01:36, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) RD: Marie Severin

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Article: Marie Severin (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Hollywood Reporter
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Narvel Comics artist, co-creator of Spider-Woman. The article has only a few CNs, but unfortunately the bibliography/works are all unsourced. Masem (t) 19:50, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Regarding the bibliography, all the comics work is assigned to specific numbered issues. The inherent citation here is to those issues, which will have credits. --LukeSurl t c 08:42, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Nevermind. This book contains a complete bibliography. --LukeSurl t c 09:13, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) RD: Stan Brock (philanthropist)

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Stale. Black Kite (talk) 10:51, 3 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Stan Brock (philanthropist) (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Stan Brock, global humanitarian and founder of Remote Area Medical, has died
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: British philanthropist and TV personality. Could use infobox and additional sources, but I have optimized the dates as DMY. FoxyGrampa75 (talk) 13:37, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Closed) RD: Paul Spudis

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Stale. Black Kite (talk) 10:51, 3 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Paul Spudis (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Space News
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
 Count Iblis (talk) 10:33, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Withdrawn) Ongoing: 2018 Asian Games

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: 2018 Asian Games (talk · history · tag)
Ongoing item nomination (Post)
Credits:
Nominator's comments: I know it's rather too late, but I do this per this hidden message at Template:In the news: <!--End of blurbs. Please consider moving unresolved stories for which the article is regularly updated to the following "Ongoing" line instead of removing them.-->; and the fact the Asian Games are still ongoing until 2 September. Thank you for understanding☺ Angga1061 18:36, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
The medal table, for starters? —Angga1061 19:00, 29 August 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Angga1061 (talk • contribs)
Ok, the completely unreferenced table of numbers? Not what I'd consider a substantive enough update for an Ongoing item at all, so I oppose. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:02, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

August 28

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August 28, 2018 (2018-08-28) (Tuesday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Arts and culture

Business and economy
  • Irish paper production and packaging firm Smurfit Kappa release a statement explaining that one of its production facilities was seized a week earlier on August 21 by the Venezuelan government and its managers were arrested, with the company accused of not setting their prices at government-approved levels and smuggling. It says that the government have taken over operation of the plant. (BBC)

Disasters and accidents

Health and environment

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

Science and technology

(Closed) RD: Tatyana Kuznetsova

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This nomination is older than all of the current posts listed under RD. I apologize to those who worked to get this article ready for posting. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:54, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Tatyana Kuznetsova (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://vaaju.com/russiaeng/kosmonaut-tatyana-kuznetsova-trained-with-tereshkova-died-society-rbc/
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Fully sourced MurielMary (talk) 11:53, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) RD: David J. Sugarbaker

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Article: David J. Sugarbaker (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: US mesothelioma expert. Article seems to be in decent shape - Dumelow (talk) 09:25, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) Hurricane Maria death toll

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Articles: Hurricane Maria death toll controversy (talk · history · tag) and Hurricane Maria (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ The Government of Puerto Rico officially revises the death toll in the territory from Hurricane Maria in 2017 to 2,975 after nearly a year of controversy and criticisms. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ The Government of Puerto Rico revises the death toll in the territory from Hurricane Maria in 2017 from 64 to 2,975 after nearly a year of controversy and criticisms.
News source(s): BBC, CNN, ABC News,
Credits:

Nominator's comments: This is a unique article in the scope of WP:WPTC and for ITN in regards to natural disasters, but it is a topic that has garnered immense coverage over the last year. It has been long known that the official death toll of 64 from the Puerto Rican Government was incorrect and grossly unrepresentative of the true impact of Hurricane Maria. Finally just three weeks before the one year anniversary, they have officially acknowledged a death toll of 2,975. This makes Maria the second-deadliest tropical cyclone in Puerto Rican history (behind the 1899 San Ciriaco hurricane) and the third-deadliest in United States history, nearly double that of Hurricane Katrina. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 00:57, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose the hurricane (and deaths) happened last year, this is just political bullshit. power~enwiki (π, ν) 02:56, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Updated death toll is the result of an 8-month long study by George Washington University. The primary goal was to properly assess the scale of fatalities and to assist in mitigating future disasters. The study harshly criticizes the government for numerous failures with preparation and recovery. Acknowledgement of the substantially higher death toll is validation for the suffering Puerto Ricans have been through. Deaths are also still believed to be occurring due to lingering effects of the hurricane; the university will be conducting a follow-up study to cover the months beyond February 2018. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 03:01, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • The original number was obviously too low because of political bullshit, this one is probably too high, and if the study is going to continue to evaluate deaths caused by the hurricane more than 6 months after it happened this is a "provisional" result anyhow. Less in-the-news than John McCain's death, California's changes on bail, the Catholic Church sex abuse controversies, or several other stories we haven't posted. power~enwiki (π, ν) 03:11, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
        • Study found the lower death toll was not "political bullshit", it was the result of inadequate training over CDC protocols and communication failures in the wake of the hurricane. Lack of understanding of how to tabulate hurricane-related deaths was the cause, not political suppression. The followup study would be an addendum to this study, but this is considered the most accurate account of the loss of life in Puerto Rico and accepted as accurate. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 03:18, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
          • A death toll doesn't increase from 70 to 3000, 12 months after the fact, without some political bullshit being involved. power~enwiki (π, ν) 03:22, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
            • They've been very clear that the death toll would not be updated until the GWU study was published and they followed through on that. They wanted an in-depth and accurate analysis of what happened rather than bouncing off everything journalists were saying. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 03:25, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
            • Power~enwiki, with all due respect, if this really was a matter of "political bullshit" as you say (which isn't quite accurate, but I'm humoring it), would that not make this story even more consequential? After all, all details of the story would remain the same, but with the additional layer of "political bullshit" making this extraordinarily high death toll into something scandalous. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 17:00, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • comment: without saying its Puerto Rico death toll only is abit misleading, its total is above 3,000 which includes other countries--
      – HonorTheKing (talk) 02:56, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Oppose while this is an interesting change in numbers for the disaster drastically, the problem is that this is still an approximation, according to the CNN source. I think this controversy would be more fitting for DYK rather than ITN. SamaranEmerald (talk) 04:22, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose One-year old event, not really in the news and at the most bottom level in significance level for items considered for ITN. World over, governments are known to massively downplay casualty figures, only to revise them after tensions has been doused. –Ammarpad (talk) 05:01, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Again, the hurricane was a year ago, this event is current and widely ITN now. As an encyclopedia, it would have been inappropriate for us to promote a high death toll prior to it being verified. Now that it has, WP should take note of a storm that killed this many people. ghost 11:15, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. This is in the news in the UK (it's not top story, but so what?) and is a significant update to a significant story, and we have a good quality article about the controversy that is updated with the results of the study and today's other news. Cyclonebiskit explains well why this is not just "political bullshit". Thryduulf (talk) 08:34, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – A good looking, interesting article on a topic that is in the news right now and that may have large repurcusions over time, not to mention the impact that this might have on the families of the over 2,000 people that died. ~Maplestrip/Mable (chat) 08:46, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • The "impact" has been felt by the victims' families since last year, that made this story stale. Or do you mean they were all waiting all this while for official report before they start feeling the "impact" of losing their loved ones? –Ammarpad (talk) 11:58, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I meant the political impact of this specific official death toll change. Surely, this affects the way various US and Puero Rican politicians are viewed? I also assume this impacts future emergency relief situations. ~Maplestrip/Mable (chat) 12:04, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Maplestrip and Ammarpad: the study also included recommendations to the Puerto Rican government on how to alleviate problems highlighted during the disaster—including the disaster protocol being horrendously outdated and only viable up to a Categoty 1 hurricane. Rosselló signed an executive order yesterday to create a committee that will work to implement these recommendations. Emergency management impacts are immediate. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 14:40, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"This should be a DYK" is such a dog whistle. Fact: both ITN and DYK exist to highlight new or updated content. They only differ in that ITN is (duh) in the news while DYK has that "hook" thing. The ONLY reason an ITN nom should be cast down to DYK is if is, in fact, not in the news. ghost 12:56, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose George Washington University, while reliable, is notably tabloid when it comes to meteorology. If this were the National Hurricane Center giving this, I would support this, but this is not the case. Kirliator (talk) 11:35, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Kirliator: The National Hurricane Center does not overrule the Government of Puerto Rico on the number of deaths a system caused. It is the Government of Puerto Rico who has decided to increase the death toll based on a report from the George Washington University which it commissioned.Jason Rees (talk) 11:54, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support This is a significant update to the death toll that you virtually never see in tropical cyclone disasters.Jason Rees (talk) 11:54, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support while the exact death toll may never be known, considering that this study increases the amount by 46x according to the provided sources is not going unnoticed. This maybe the last and closest major update in the death toll we may ever have with this hurricane before research of it abruptly stops. Hornetzilla78 (talk) 12:55, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, this has been picked up by some significant news outlets and the article is well-referenced and surprisingly detailed. -- Tavix (talk) 13:32, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think a better blurb is needed here. As pointed out above, this was not a small correction, this was a double-digit-times increase from what PR had publicly reported after Maria. The fact that this is not a small correction, and thus making Maria one of the deadly Atlantic hurricanes, should be in the blurb, to make this more than just seemingly like someone mis-dotted their 't' and crossed their 'i'. --Masem (t) 13:58, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak support while it is true that the hurricane itself is old news, this death toll update is in the news right now. Lepricavark (talk) 14:47, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support in reading the above arguments, I am finding that while the hurricane was an event from a year ago, the death toll and the disparity between the reality and the original official number is current news. 74.93.182.21 (talk) 15:05, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Two long discussions about the McCain nom have come and gone - this is about a hurricane. --LaserLegs (talk) 01:36, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
  • Comment - John McCain's death was (officially) rejected for a blurb because it was not noteworthy/newsworthy/significant enough. Here we have another American event, and it is posted quickly, despite some opposition. I would guess that, if you polled people from anywhere in the world (including Puerto Ricans) about whether they were aware of John McCain's death and the revision of statistics for Hurricane Maria, an overwhelming majority would have far, far more knowledge of McCain's death. GaryColemanFan (talk) 22:36, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not sure this about "knowledge of McCain's death". Indeed, if "an overwhelming majority" did indeed have "far, far more knowledge" then it's probably better that we focus on providing information about things less known to people who have "far, far less knowledge" about such things. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:39, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    So you're saying you think ITN should focus on news stories with limited coverage? GaryColemanFan (talk) 23:34, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    !vote count was 16 support, 6 oppose. Some opposition didn't respond to counter-points either. Those commenting are not all from the United States. Even though I have some bias here, I'd say it's safe this gained the necessary consensus to post. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 00:50, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Post-posting oppose - barely sees coverage outside of the US, deals with a year-old event, and changing the death toll has no practical impact except for historians. There're more current things to post. Banedon (talk) 08:46, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The death toll might be from a year old event, but it is the revision of the death toll that is the event itself. This doesn't usually happen on such a massive scale(from a relatively average death toll to one of the highest on record for a highly developed country) It certainly has a practical impact for the families of the dead, as well as the millions in Puerto Rico who have a reason to have much less faith in their government. 331dot (talk) 08:55, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Was headline news in the UK when the story broke. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:43, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

August 27

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August 27, 2018 (2018-08-27) (Monday)
International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

(Posted) RD: Rohan Daluwatte

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Article: Rohan Daluwatte (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Former commander of the Sri Lankan army, chief of the defence staff and ambassador to Brazil. I have added a little to the article, it looks reasonable to me - Dumelow (talk) 22:43, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Mirka Mora

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Article: Mirka Mora (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): ABC, The Age, SBS News
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Australian artist. Fuebaey (talk) 13:46, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

August 26

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August 26, 2018 (2018-08-26) (Sunday)
Armed conflicts and attacks
  • War in Afghanistan
    • Afghan authorities say that, in a joint ground and air operation on Saturday night, Afghan and foreign forces killed the head of ISIL/K, along with ten other members of the militant group. (Reuters) (CNN)

Arts and culture

Disasters and accidents

Law and crime

Politics and election

(Posted) RD: Inge Borkh

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Article: Inge Borkh (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): several, died 26 August (I noticed only now, sorry), example in English The great soprano Inge Borkh died in Stuttgart at the age of 97, NZZ and others in German
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: German soprano based in Switzerland, legendary Salome and Elektra in the 1950s, international festivals, recordings - I know that all references are there but not yet matched with the facts. Still licking wounds, I don't want to wait until I am no longer afraid of edit conflicts and then be told "too late". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:24, 28 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) Zimbabwean general election, 2018

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No consensus to post. --Tone 09:31, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Zimbabwean general election, 2018 (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Emmerson Mnangagwa is sworn in and inaugurated as President of Zimbabwe after winning the country's presidential election. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Emmerson Mnangagwa becomes President of Zimbabwe after winning the country's presidential election.
Alternative blurb II: ​ Incumbent Emmerson Mnangagwa is elected President of Zimbabwe after winning the country's presidential election.
News source(s): Reuters via The Guardian
Credits:

Article updated
Nominator's comments: The election was major news when it happened, but the previous ITN/C discussion stalled after waiting for the full results, and was never posted. FallingGravity 06:17, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • We don't usually post inaugurations or swearings-in. They usually get less attention than the election itself. 331dot (talk) 08:21, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Concur with 331dot and suggest this be closed. Being in ITN/R list means that an event is determined as worthy of posting ceteris paribus. So it may, or may not be posted at the time it is due depending on consensus reached. The crux here, is that, it doesn't mean that the event must be posted. –Ammarpad (talk) 08:41, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The user isn't claiming this is ITNR(the election was, but this isn't). 331dot (talk) 09:28, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't claim he said that also. But he is basing this nomination in lieu of the election (which is ITN/R and wasn't posted). –Ammarpad (talk) 18:39, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support This is ITNR. The results were not officially recognized until August 24:
On 10 August, it was announced that Mnangagwa's inauguration, which had been scheduled for 12 August, would be delayed after Chamisa petitioned to challenge the election results in court, with a ruling due by the end of the month.[1] On 24 August 2018, the Supreme Court of Zimbabwe dismissed Chamisa's challenge and officially declared Mnangagwa the winner in a unanimous ruling.[2][3][4][5] The Chief Justice Luke Malaba noted that Chamisa refused both a recount and access to the ballot boxes.[6] Mnangagwa's inauguration and official swearing-in was then held on 26 August.[7][8]
If we don't allow this to be posted, we create a Catch-22 situation. We can't first decline posting because the results are not conclusive and then when they do become conclusive, and the election is renominated, say the election is now stale. I have supplied an altblurb. Forget the actual swear-in and move this nomination to August 24.--- Coffeeandcrumbs 09:52, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Zimbabwe presidential inauguration delayed amid court challenge Sky News, 10 August 2018
  2. ^ "WATCH LIVE - Zimbabwe's top court delivers election ruling". Retrieved 27 August 2018.
  3. ^ "Court rejects Zimbabwe election challenge". 24 August 2018. Retrieved 27 August 2018 – via www.bbc.com.
  4. ^ Press, Farai Mutsaka, The Associated. "Zimbabwe court unanimously upholds president's election win". Retrieved 27 August 2018.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
  5. ^ News, ABC. "Zimbabwe court unanimously upholds president's election win". Retrieved 27 August 2018. {{cite web}}: |last= has generic name (help)
  6. ^ "OVERVIEW: ConCourt declares Mnangagwa as duly elected president of Zimbabwe". News24. Retrieved 27 August 2018.
  7. ^ "President Mnangagwa sworn in". ZBC News Online. Retrieved 27 August 2018.
  8. ^ "Zimbabwe: Emmerson Mnangagwa sworn in as president". The Guardian. Reuters. 26 August 2018. Retrieved 27 August 2018.
Ah, I went back and checked. Right. Stalled nominations are not a reason for re-posting later. --Tone 11:19, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose right now If the article becomes better and a better blurb is supplied (Mnangagwa was already President, he just got re-elected) Kingsif (talk) 12:10, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Actually, the last election was Mugabe's re-election. It's true that Mnangagwa was already President, but he was serving out the remainder of Mugabe's term. This was his first election, but he was also the incumbent. I provided a second alternate blurb which should clarify this. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 14:39, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support on merit and when quality concerns are dealt with. I agree with Coffeeandcrumbs; I disagree with the rationale of opposing because the election was more newsworthy when the election wasn't posted. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 14:37, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Caveated support for posting as a 24 August nom with a blurb which explains why. Right now we'd look daft to post any of the suggestions as, like it or not, all other news outlets have been there, done that, some time ago. We ought to simply justify the late addition with some carefully crafted words along the lines of "following an unsuccessful challenge to the results". The Rambling Man (talk) 21:51, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Elections are often disputed, and if we gave credence to the dispute by holding off on the posting, that would justify posting when the outcome was decided. That did not happen here. This is an everyday occurrence of going stale for want of quality. ghost 13:39, 28 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Ghost, Sherenk1, and Tone.Tlhslobus (talk) 04:31, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Closed) Jacksonville landing shooting

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No consensus to post, and I believe leaving this open will only lead to the discussion degenerating. 331dot (talk) 09:27, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Jacksonville Landing shooting (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ A mass shooting takes place during a gaming tournament in Jacksonville, Florida, killing 2 and injuring 11. (Post)
News source(s): [2] [3]
Credits:

Article updated
Nominator's comments: Major mass shooting. All over the news, well sourced. Kirbanzo (talk) 03:43, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment shootings in the United States almost never get consensus, I don't see how this one will. power~enwiki (π, ν) 03:46, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This should be eligible for WP:DYK if there's a "hook" other than people dying to use. power~enwiki (π, ν) 03:51, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose and suggest rapid close. 100% domestic crime. --Masem (t) 03:49, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • The fact that it's "100% domestic crime" doesn't immediately disqualify it. See the "Please do not..." section above - it says that the fact that it only relates to a single country is not a valid reason for ITN denial. Kirbanzo (talk) 03:50, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Does a mass shooting have to be terrorism-related in order to be ITN-worthy? Common sense (at least to me) says no. This shooting has plenty of news coverage despite happening only yesterday, so even if no terrorist organization had a hand in it, it's still notable to be, at least, considered for ITN. Let me end on this rhetorical question: if Wikipedia existed in 1999 at the time of the Columbine shootings, would you have done the same thing you're doing here, not knowing how influential it would be? Kirbanzo (talk) 04:02, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes it should be more than domestic crime. It's in the news because it is shocking and thus getting coverage, but it isn't anything that can be done until lawmakers step on on gun control. We're also toying on the hypothetic MINIMUMDEATHS here with only 3 (+ shooter) killed. --Masem (t) 04:08, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, we recognize that ITN would be flooded if we covered all domestic crimes of this scale. We did not post the Fredericton shootings with the same death toll a few weeks ago for that reason. This is getting attention only because it happened in a public place, but the rational has already been determine: a guy lost, went home, got a gun, and came back to shoot his competitors. Stupid reason for people to die, not disagreeing it was a tragedy, but it's not likely to have any larger effect on the world being a domestic crime. --Masem (t) 06:02, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support because it's "in the news" and the article is solid. But, the Europeans will lose their shit with this nomination and it will never get posted. – Muboshgu (talk) 04:04, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Just doesn't reach the level of newsworthiness required for ITN. A shooting with only two victims in a country where this happens literally every single day. In fact, this is the third shooting just this month with at least two victims. This isn't even the deadliest; a shooting on 12 August in Clearlake, California resulted in four deaths. AusLondonder (talk) 04:34, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • This got news coverage. The shooting in Clearlake didn't. – Muboshgu (talk) 04:41, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • Comment I've got to agree with Muboshgu: this story is the feature on the BBC, displacing John McCain, Neil Simon, and even a British woman being jailed in Iran on the same day. It's definitely in the news. Kingsif (talk) 05:51, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
        • I am widely speculating here, but the reason it is probably featured is because the media is latching onto this being connected to video games (even though this wasn't a violent video game). Video games still hold that stigma and there have been attempts to sway that language despite evidence disproving that link. Regardless of that speculation, ITN does not consider the relative weight (location or frequency of articles) in determining what is posted, we are not a news ticker. --Masem (t) 06:05, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per my comment above Kingsif (talk) 05:51, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Shootings with only two fatalities are not ITN material. And FTR I am an American and would oppose posting such an event from pretty much anywhere other than maybe the Vatican. The sensational press coverage notwithstanding, this probably occurs daily all over the world. And the long term significance of this event is likely around zero. [Prayers for those affected.] -Ad Orientem (talk) 05:58, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support It's seen widespread coverage, even in international outlets. The article is pretty good. Davey2116 (talk) 06:11, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose a mass killing with just two victims in the United States is an everyday occurrence, literally. This one made the news because no-one knew how many victims there were for some hours, and mis-reports inflated the toll. This should just be a line on the List of mass shootings in the United States (although what's happened to that list?!!) as it is just another trivial crime which will have absolutely no lasting impact and is of extraordinarily limited encyclopedic value. It's hardly a weekend in Chicago is it? The Rambling Man (talk) 08:15, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
A US city once averaged 6.15 murders per day for a whole year, most by gun of course. That's the record I think. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 09:10, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I will once again repeat that all these shootings in the United States are simply a consequence of the extremely loose policies on acquiring guns, and the right news that merits inclusion would be any policy change against the notoriously profit-seeking arms industry that would limit easy access to guns instead of just counting victims of instances that no-one cares to prevent.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 08:42, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Oppose yet another shooting in America, this time with an even lower death toll than the Capital Gazette Shooting or the Santa Fe School Shooting. You people need to get it in your head that shootings in the U.S. are common and often times have death tolls within the single digits. SamaranEmerald (talk) 08:55, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I concur with all of the above opposers, especially power wiki and Kiril. This shooting is tragic, but otherwise short-term and minor despite the Nominator’s comment. Simply put, this nomination is doomed from the beginning. –Kirliator (talk) 09:13, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Unfortunate, yes, but as pointed out above, those happen so often that we could have ITN filled every day with such shootings. I disagree with Ad Orientem's assessment though: This might very well be ITN material if it happened in other (developed) countries because then it would be something that rarely happens. If the shooting had taken place at this year's Gamescom for example, I'd probably have supported posting to ITN because mass shootings are - thankfully - extremely rare in Germany and thus generate far more coverage when one happens. Regards SoWhy 09:20, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Closed) RD: Neil Simon

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Stale, unimproved. Stephen 23:23, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Neil Simon (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): CNN, NYT
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: American playwright dies at age 91. Article is pretty well-sourced. Davey2116 (talk) 16:42, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Left his field in 2003, riding the momentum of a noted flop, so no longer a transformative figure in it. InedibleHulk (talk) 04:58, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Arguably, once they've been a transformative figure they always remain a transformative figure (But their relative level of that can be surpassed) --Masem (t) 13:55, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Of course, but those arguments are about as solid as living figures never dying, child actors never aging or retired basketball players playing basketball forever. InedibleHulk (talk) 12:51, 28 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Level 5 seems to be the lowest level of vitality, not the highest. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:20, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"Vital articles" are selected by a handful of people in pages which receive fewer views than my user page. Not worth consideration. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:16, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I'll bite...[4] WHAAAA!? Also, blurb talk before refs are fixed is a distraction. ghost 17:24, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. This sudden emergence of "Vital article" claims is troubling and should be dismissed out of hand. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:53, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
So far it seems to have been used as an attempt to boost ITN postings for U.S.-centric subjects. Whether or not this is the actual intent is up for debate.--WaltCip (talk) 11:24, 28 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The level 4 VAs actually represent a pretty good standard for blurb-worthy. The level 5s are laughable. Like, George Carlin (lvl 4) laughable, not Pauly Shore (lvl 5) laughable. ghost 12:11, 28 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I think as a rule of thumb, "vital article rating can be ignored". The Rambling Man (talk) 19:09, 28 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
While I participate in the WP:VA project, my feeling is that living persons are included simply because it's a waste of time to argue against including them. Brittanica made due for centuries without entries on WP:BLPs. And level-5 is a free-for-all; I very much doubt we'd include this guy or that one or Dog the Bounty Hunter as blurbs. power~enwiki (π, ν) 03:20, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. So in summary, ignore all vital article claims. They are useless and have no impact or meaning here. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:17, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Closed) Colombian referendum 2018

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Too early - the referendum is in process. Kingsif (talk) 15:59, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Colombian referendum, 2018 : A seven-part referendum is being held in Colombia on seven proposals aimed at reducing corruption.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Aréat (talk • contribs) 09:32, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Close The election results have not come in. This referendum is occurring on 26 August 2018. Actually, right now as I write this. Please close as too soon. It can be renominated properly tomorrow or whenever results are announced.--- Coffeeandcrumbs 14:07, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • close per above. When the results are known and there is some information in the article about the significance of them, it can be reconsidered. I'd also like there to be more background - are the proposals controversial at all for example. Awkward42 (talk) [the alternate account of Thryduulf (talk)] 15:13, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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August 25

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August 25, 2018 (2018-08-25) (Saturday)
Business and economy

Disasters and accidents

International relations

Politics and elections

Sport

(Closed) RD: Dieter Thomas Heck

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Stale. We only post late if the reports of death are more than a week later, we don't micromanage by a day or two. Stephen 00:43, 28 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Dieter Thomas Heck (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): several, died 23 August, published 25 August, example TAZ
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: German TV presenter who reached millions in 40 years, many awards, - I had no time until just now to update --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:17, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The lists are in the article since 2012, and the same as in German. But I will work on it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:59, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
All awards are now referenced, and all shows. Need sleep. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:37, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) Harbin hotel fire

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Article: 2018 Harbin hotel fire (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ A fire at a hotel in Harbin, China, kills 19 and injures more than 20 others. (Post)
News source(s): The Guardian, NYT, Xinhua
Credits:

 Fuebaey (talk) 14:10, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Lindsay Kemp

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Article: Lindsay Kemp (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): BBC News, The Guardian, The Independent
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: English artist. Fuebaey (talk) 22:07, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted to RD) John McCain

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Re-closing. As pointed out on talk, 65,000 words have been put towards this, there is clearly no lack of input, and we've time across all major English-speaking countries to review. Consensus is not going to develop, and this is quickly heading towards off-topic debate. RD has been posted, no consensus for a blurb. --Masem (t) 16:54, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

 
Article: John McCain (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ American politician John McCain dies at age 81. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ American politician and twice Presidential candidate John McCain (pictured) dies at the age of 81.
Alternative blurb II: ​ United States Senator and twice presidential candidate John McCain (pictured) dies at 81.
Alternative blurb III: ​ United States Senator and former presidential candidate John McCain (pictured) dies at 81.
Alternative blurb IV: ​ United States Senator and 2008 presidential candidate John McCain (pictured) dies at the age of 81.
Alternative blurb V: ​ American statesman John McCain (pictured) dies at the age of 81.
News source(s): NBC, NYT
Credits:

Article updated
Nominator's comments: Famous American political figure, long-time U.S. senator, and 2008 presidential candidate. Davey2116 (talk) 00:23, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Given this was well known that he was close to dying (and that he went off his treatment a few days ago), the article appears to be in good shape save for the citation format tag on the references, which is not a showstopper for posting for me. --Masem (t) 00:27, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Weak support for blurb I've been waffling myself on if this should be a blurb (any other senior-level congressperson or the equivalent would be RD only, and even when the person has something else going for them, specificly John Glenn we'd only post as a RD), but there are at least three things that put this over the edge for me: 1) The article is an FA and was in good quality at nomination time, and ITN is meant to showcase quality content on the main page - this doesn't mean FA is an automatic blurb but it should weigh some; 2) he's known as a POW; and 3) he has done a reasonable amount of accomplishments that represent the highest an individual congressperson can do without being president, he for all purposes does meet "top of their field" when it comes to American policities. This should be seen as the extreme exception and not the rule. --Masem (t) 06:23, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • @Masem: We shouldn't judge McCain on his influence within "American politics", but within politics in general. There are a very large number of individuals who had large domestic influence (larger, within their countries, than McCain had) for whom we've not posted blurbs; Manuel Noriega comes to mind. His impact doesn't have to have been global; but it does have to be comparable to global figures; and McCain's influence simply isn't at that level. Very few politicians who didn't hold nation-wide elected office have anywhere close to the impact of those deaths we usually post (Franklin, Prince, Vajpayee, Hawking, Mandela, Castro...). Vanamonde (talk) 08:26, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Not a big fan of posting RDs as blurbs, but I'll go with this one, plus it's a featured article, which makes a change on quality. Black Kite (talk) 00:29, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb - definitely deserved. Thechased (talk) 00:32, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • RD only, no comment on article quality. -- KTC (talk) 00:33, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, article is an FA, and I think he deserves a blurb. Daniel Case (talk) 00:35, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
My argument for a blurb would be that a) unlike most dead pols that age he was most politically prominent in the last decade of his life, due to his 2008 presidential bid and his recent sorta opposition to Trump and b) his war record. Daniel Case (talk) 00:38, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It's a slow news month; this may be front-page news in the US the entire week, especially as Trump's (lack of) reaction will be covered excessively. If the BBC, the Times of India, the Sydney Morning Herald are also giving it front-page/multi-day treatment, it will need to be a blurb. power~enwiki (π, ν) 00:43, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Certainly warrants an RD and happy to go with a blurb. Classified as a level 5 vital article so blurb is probably warranted although some may dispute this. Former featured article so quality is there. News is already receiving widespread coverage. Sitting US Senator so is newsworthy especially in US. Capitalistroadster (talk) 00:41, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Blurb After Ted Kennedy probably the most consequential modern American political figure who was never elected president. His influence extended far beyond the borders of this country. Article is FA so no quality issues. -Ad Orientem (talk) 00:44, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose blurb As much as I am saddened to hear about his death, and I don't doubt his death will get global coverage (hence the "weak"), he wasn't a head of state and I'm not entirely convinced his career in military or politics had a world-transforming impact. EternalNomad (talk) 00:45, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb per Ad Orientem. Spengouli (talk) 00:46, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb Longstanding political figure, US Presidential candidate, with featured article. Already has obituaries out, despite it being night in half the world. Kingsif (talk) 00:47, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It should be expected that media organisations have obituaries ready to go for famous figures who are over 80 years old, especially if they have cancer, and especially if they choose to stop treatment. They've had the obituaries ready for days, if not weeks and months, and just pressed the publish button when he died. It's not a measure of the newsworthiness of his death. Chrisclear (talk) 01:02, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Even for those published outside the US, they would have written them in recent days/weeks/months. His death was hardly unexpected.Chrisclear (talk) 01:04, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Edit: I'd say the second alt blurb sounds best. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 01:45, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb: His article has FA status and McCain was a major political figure in the United States for decades. While I don't think ITN should turn into RD, there have been a string of rather notable deaths, as seen by Aretha Franklin, Kofi Annan, and PM Vajpayee, and McCain certainly fits the criteria for notability and article quality. He warrants a blurb. --PootisHeavy (talk) 00:50, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb The death appears to be receiving a very large amount of coverage. Hrodvarsson (talk) 00:52, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support both RD and Blurb John McCain's article is both very high in quality (featured) and a level 5 vital article in politicians (not just US politicians), so notability is not in question. McCain was a well-known POW and prominent US politician, having served a long career as a senator in addition to being a presidential candidate. I have no personal leanings on this one as I neither love nor hate McCain, but he's without question notable. I understand that we may need to wait for more coverage to emerge in order to post a blurb, though. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 00:54, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb Although I’m aware that most of us commenting thus far are probably US based so we should wait a few hours to get more opinions. Pawnkingthree (talk) 00:55, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Oppose blurb, support RD. Some perspective is needed here. Although he had a lengthy political career, he was only a member of the house of representatives and senator. If this is posted as a blurb, then in addition to validating concerns about systemic bias, it also creates a poor precedent for the future deaths of many hundreds / thousands of politicians who are never elected as the head of their government or head of state. Chrisclear (talk) 00:57, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "level 5 vital article" means almost nothing here. That said, he was possibly the most prominent living politician in the United States never elected president. (Bernie, Hillary, and Newt Gingrich might have argued at various times) power~enwiki (π, ν) 01:02, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't think any of those figures were as influential, especially in foreign affairs as McCain. Hillary was Secretary of State but I can't think of anything she did of really lasting significance. McCain is probably the man most responsible for normalizing relations with Vietnam. among many other accomplishments. -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:13, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • McCain's is a level 5 vital article BECAUSE of Wikipedia's systemic bias. The number of comments in this thread is further evidence of it, as is the five Edit conflicts I experienced while trying to post this. (Sorry I had to make a post to make that point.) HiLo48 (talk) 01:15, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Our "Vital article" categorization means very very little, particularly with respect to individuals from recent times. There's no systematic criteria at all; for instance, level 5 VAs include John Compton, prime minister of a country of 200,000 (would you support a blurb for his death?) but not Sirimavo Bandaranaike, who despite being the first elected female head of state in the world, isn't a VA at all. Vanamonde (talk) 08:38, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Vital articles" are cherry-picked by very few individuals in a project which gets fewer daily pageviews than my user page. It's completely inappropriate to starting waving "vital article" around as some kind of free pass here. And as Vanamonde notes, it's completely flawed in any case. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:44, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Although I think the blurb could be better. Natureium (talk) 01:09, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb The section of this page detailing how to voice an opinion on ITN says "please do not...oppose an item because the event is only relating to a single country, or failing to relate to one. This applies to a high percentage of the content we post and is unproductive." This is not to say that systemic bias isn't an issue, but this death is very obviously highly notable. We have systemic bias, sure, but that doesn't mean we should hesitate to discuss what is a very salient news item. This is the culmination of weeks of news coverage of a politician so notable that we rated it a level-5 vital article on people and politicians. I don't think this will set a precedent that any member of a legislature will get a blurb, McCain wasn't any member of a legislature and our own vital article rating scheme and the news coverage make that clear. Wugapodes [thɔk] [ˈkan.ˌʧɻɪbz] 01:10, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb and RD his figure as a US Presidential Candidate has some effect worldwide. Abequinn14 (talk) 01:12, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Specifically support blurb IV. Abequinn14 (talk) 03:53, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't understand, how can someone has effect worldwide simply by being a US Presidential Candidate? Outside the US his popularity as a Presidential Candidate is being shadowed by Barack Obama I think. Hddty. (talk) 01:58, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I like the addition of "twice presidential candidate" since it tells readers unfamiliar with McCain why the death is notable, but think "after a battle with brain cancer" is unnecessary since the cause can easily be learned from the article. Omitting would save copy and probably also help drive traffic. Wugapodes [thɔk] [ˈkan.ˌʧɻɪbz] 01:18, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Query Was McCain the Republican presidential candidate in 2008 only? Was his campaign for the Republican nomination in 2000 unsuccessful? If yes, then "twice presidential candidate" seems to be misleading, when compared to Gary Johnson, for example, who was his party's candidate for two presidential elections. Chrisclear (talk) 01:40, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I thought so. If merely attempting to win a party's nomination counts as being a "presidential candidate", then there would probably be a large number of politicians to have made that faux "achievement". Whereas Gary Johnson fits the "twice presidential candidate" description much better. Chrisclear (talk) 01:52, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Very strongly oppose blurb - As a Senator, his death was neither unexpected nor does he rise to the level of standard set by our previous blurbs. WaltCip (talk) 01:29, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb McCain has been serving as a Senator for decades, and has continuously had a profound impact on American politics. His military service and time as a POW has also received intense attention. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 01:37, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose blurb. His Senate career was not unlike many other senators, being a US Senator should not be a ticket to a blurb, it wouldn't be for other legislative bodies. Presidential candidate shouldn't be a ticket to a blurb, either. 331dot (talk) 01:41, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Sen. McCain was a very vocal and inspirational politician whose decades-long career impacted not only upon US politics, but also the Western hemisphere. A well-deserved mention. Thevaluablediamond (talk) 01:42, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment 49 out of the last 50 edits to ITN were this nomination, (and a solid majority of the last 100) and most every time I try to post another edit I'm warned that it's an old revision. I'd say this demonstrably shows that it's of far more interest than any other nomination at the moment. I wouldn't believe that it's genuinely not of enough interest to get a blurb. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 01:52, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Blurb John McCain was definitely a highly influential and well regarded American Politician and war hero, and his death has been very widely reported in the news, it seems fitting that we should follow suit and add to our ITN. His article is also featured status, which makes it even easier to support a blurb. Captain Eek Edits Ho Cap'n! 01:59, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb and RD It's a Lv 5 vital article and a featured article. Slam dunk. pbp 02:01, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Also note that most of the things trending on Twitter for the last couple of hours are McCain-related. pbp 02:32, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • As a citizen of the US, I took the time to explain this to my non-US fellow Wikipedians. Let me rephrase: McCain was not the President. He should not be posted as a blurb, it goes against consensus. Abductive (reasoning) 07:24, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: vote mobs tend to have a stranglehold on WP death blurb nominations and this one is likely going to get posted; what is likely going to be absent is the examination of the actual criteria listed at ITN/DC and potential effects of systemic bias. However, to me this is a case worth considering. McCain almost certainly is of a higher order on the 'blurbworthiness' compared to Franklin, George Michael, Christopher Lee, or Lauren Bacall, all of whom got their own blurbs. He is also perhaps Trump's biggest antagonist inside his own party, and his death has political consequences that is likely to lead to continual coverage. A quick-and-dirty examination of the Daily Yomiuri, El Pais, the French language version of France 24, BBC, O Globo (Brazil), and mainland Chinese newsportal Sina shows this as the top story or the top "international" story. Al Jazeera does not show it (yet), but barring some bizarre circumstance, will soon. When measured on global newsworthiness, his death is certainly receiving more attention than that of Atal Bihari Vajpayee, which we also posted as a blurb. Colipon+(Talk) 02:49, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Your last sentence is particularly interesting. At the heart of it, you have raised the issue of "news as entertainment", particularly in a world where clicks matter more than content. Does ITN consider the importance of the person who has died? Or merely how many clicks a person generates? It's plainly obvious that a US politician with white skin gets more clicks than a dark skinned Indian politician. But unlike McCain, who was only a senator, Vajpayee actually led his country's government. Surely that makes Vajpayee more notable than McCain, regardless of how many clicks McCain generates? Chrisclear (talk) 02:56, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • You have a vivid imagination! I was merely posing the questions - to which I am genuinely interested in an answer: Does ITN consider the importance of the person who has died? Or merely how many clicks a person generates? Chrisclear (talk) 03:03, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Politicians generally are encyclopedic in nature because they make major policy decisions that affect vast swathes of humankind. Vajpayee did so, but his influence was limited to South Asia. If Mohatma Gandhi or Indira Gandhi died today, I have no doubt they would have achieved consensus for a blurb; indeed, Mandela did so as well, justifiably. So race is a non-issue. The newsworthiness of the event has nothing to do with clicks, but more to do with the fact that this man is globally known and globally influential - whereas Vajpeyee, while he did serve political office on a country of one billion, was not.
I did not even support the blurb, by the way; I am just wanting to inject a voice of reason into this discussion.Colipon+(Talk) 03:10, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi Chrisclear. My understanding is that sites that rely on clicks are doing so because clicks correlate or translate to revenue from ad impressions. Wikipedia has no ads, so I'm not sure why any editor would be interested in clicks or page view traffic in this context.

    Who does and does not get an "In the news" blurb on the English Wikipedia and who does and does not get a "Recent deaths" entry on the English Wikipedia are interesting topics to explore, in my opinion. The editorial discussions on this page do, in many ways, entail a level of judging and weighing a person's contributions and impact on society, as well as the person's age and the general expectedness of the death. And the views on this topic can be wide. For example, there have been suggestions in the recent past that former U.S. presidents not get blurbs. I very much doubt we'll ever set that standard. --MZMcBride (talk) 06:58, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support blurb. You might say that he just missed the mark of being a "major transformative world leader" in his "field". He was, after all, never elected President. But he was about as admired a figure as a politician of his rank and party can aspire to in his home country; and let's not forget that he is also a figure of some consequence in the history of Vietnam. As such, his death is being noted as front page news well outside the USA and the English speaking world. Front page news around the world, IOW. Smerdis of Tlön - killing the human spirit since 2003! 03:07, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This is the first possibly-convincing argument I have read over the past three hours. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 03:18, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Being front page news throughout the world should certainly be at least "possibly-convincing." European editors are confirming that from the UK to Czechia to Germany his death is a front page story. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 03:30, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb, weak support RD We do not post mere MPs/senators and he did not win the presidency. Only supporting RD as this will be posted. Also the page has orange tags.Lihaas (talk) 03:20, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
One of the "orange tags" was the Recent Death template, which is not an "issue." This inaccurate listing as an orange tag has been fixed. The other was vague, added mid-discussion, and the rationale for putting it there was never described. It has been removed. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 03:30, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support RD and oppose blurb per above !votes on reasons for supporting RD and opposing blurb. 184.153.25.119 (talk) 03:23, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support RD, oppose blurb John McCain is not at the Mandela/Annan/Aretha Franklin level, and to suggest that he was is regionalism at its finest. For politicians, the Mandela level would be to be a transformative president or a Nobel Peace Prize winner (granted, this is not a hard rule), and despite McCain's fine career, McCain was not that. McCain's influence was primarily felt within the borders of the United States, so he does not merit a blurb. (NorthernFalcon (talk) 03:47, 26 August 2018 (UTC))[reply]
  • What if we listed him as a "celebrated war veteran and Vietnam POW", instead of a politician? Even his military achievements are highly notable. This is ignoring the headline news in just about every country worldwide. His influence may have been technically limited to the US, but his presence was not, both while living and now dead. Kingsif (talk) 04:03, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Too much puffery and I don't think his presidential candidacy was consequential. The appropriate term in this case is statesman in the tradition of Benjamin Franklin, Frederick Douglass, Robert Kennedy, and Ted Kennedy. None of whom held the highest office in the land.--- Coffeeandcrumbs 04:33, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support RD and blurb His influence was primarily felt within the borders of the USA, but the USA is among the most influential and powerful countries in the world. 1779Days (talk) 03:56, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support RD and concerned that whilst there are discussions going on among editors about the relative merits of RD and blurb, neither gets done. There's an obvious consensus in favour of noting John McCain's death and his article somewhere in the 'In the news' section. This should be shown as an RD for now and then 'upgraded' to blurb if there is a consensus on doing so. - BobKilcoyne (talk) 03:59, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Prospectively posted to RD in the mean time without prejudice to a blurb posting; I would like the discussion regarding a blurb to run a little longer than 3ish hours, but the article quality is there for a posting in the section. I am planning to check back here tomorrow to assess the discussion, but any admin who feels otherwise can remove this from RD/bump to blurb, etc. (Frequently life gets in the way and I'm not always available to check back here as frequently as I would like). Best, SpencerT•C 04:03, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Support for "In the News" - One of the most significant political figures in the United States of the past 25 years. KConWiki (talk) 04:06, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb and it's a good thing I didn't write it. It would be too much to mention his status as a Republican who refused to succumb to Trumpism. Connor Behan (talk) 04:07, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Conceding that it is still early in Europe, I think we are getting close to the point where we need to acknowledge that there is a consensus to post this. It would take a fairly dramatic wave of oppose votes without any new supports to tip the scales away from posting. -Ad Orientem (talk) 04:25, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Early in Europe? presuming youre not in e Europe did you not sleep yet? I awoke 2 hours ago.Lihaas (talk) 04:51, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It's really late here and yeah, I do need to go to bed. -Ad Orientem (talk) 05:10, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose blurb domestic news. We barely posted the news about rthe death of a former prime minister of india for 7 years, and now you wanna post the news about a former US senator? What's next? Should we post the news about former US senatorial candidates dying too? This is ridiculous Openlydialectic (talk) 04:49, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I believe alt5 (which I added) correctly conveys his notability as a statesman. I would also be ok with the original blurb. His presidential candidacy was not that notable. His long career as a legislator and shadow diplomat should be our focus. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 04:51, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb per Wugapodes. -A lad insane (Channel 2) 04:57, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Regardless of what of your party, most people respect the contributions he has made to the US. He has been really influential and somewhat progressive (at least in energy) and really wants to see the best for America and the world. --JungleEntity (talk) 05:04, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment In the US - sure. But can at least a SINGLE EDITOR on this page take into consideration the fact that this is NOT AN AMERICAN WIKIPEDIA. The levels of self-glorification here are astonishing. Shame. Openlydialectic (talk) 05:11, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Inclusion of non-American topics does not have to come at a cost of excluding newsworthy American topics. I personally have worked tirelessly to promote several articles about non-american people and events. Enough with these "bias" accusations. Before McCain, ITN had a single American blurb and a single RD. This has been a consistent pattern that has existed for the few months I have been contributing to ITN. There have been several days in which we did not have a single American blurb or RD on ITN. It is not a competition. ITN is well above the norm on inclusion of news from other nations. We currently have 3 Indians on ITN, a story about Asian Games and we're about to post an RD for a Zimbabwean politician. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 05:30, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You can't really count the recent death items as it was decided a while ago that having a decent article was the only criteria needed for posting there. So we essentially have one American and one Indian item in the section where editor opinion on worthiness still plays a role. AIRcorn (talk) 09:11, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Coffeeandcrumbs. Very often, accusations of Americentrism and editor-shaming come from an (ironically) Americentric position that forgets how America is a foreign country to the rest of the world, and American news can be worldwide news. McCain's death is internationally front page news, as evidenced by the news headlines coming from several European countries. It's not just local news if you're a reader from another country. The threshold should be whether or not the news story is relevant across the world, and in this case we have more than enough reason to believe that it is. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 05:45, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose blurb. McCain was well-known, sure, but his international profile is largely the result of his unsuccessful candidacy for the presidency. He didn't hold a cabinet position either; his career has been confined to the national legislature. This is a case where his profile far outstrips his actual influence. We wouldn't even consider a blurb for a person in an analogous position in any other country. The blurb for Atal Bihari Vajpayee, who was de facto head of the most populous democracy for six years, had less support than this one. Systemic bias is real. Oh, and then there's all the "such an inspiring figure" votes, which have nothing at all to with whether this is blurb-worthy. Vanamonde (talk) 05:53, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose blurb sad passing but just a politician who died of natural causes. Not "transformative" by any means. The Rambling Man (talk) 05:59, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb McCain did have a huge impact in American politics, death is making headlines globally, and I'd say he was a top figure in his career profession.--TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 06:16, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose blurb. An inspirational person, and received lots of media attention as a presidential candidate, but he was not that extraordinary when you compare to politicians who recently died worldwide, for example at Deaths in 2018. Mikael Häggström (talk) 06:18, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose blurb I suggest everybody here who support a blurb read the guidelines. Items 1 would suggest RD, item 2 does not apply, which leaves us with item 3: "the death of major transformative world leaders in their field may merit a blurb". McCain is not a "world leader", he's an American politician, not even a head of government. Whether he was transformative in the US (or not) is irrelevant. Isa (talk) 06:36, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose blurb. Very high profile in the US certainly, but not really an international figure. He didn't hold the highest office, wasn't transformative of his field and his achievements were essentially all domestic. We wouldn't blurb Ken Clarke or Neil Kinnock who are approximately seminar figures in UK politics. Awkward42 (talk) [the alternate account of Thryduulf (talk)] 07:04, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose blurb Yes he was a big domestic politician, but didn't hold any major political office nor did he have any major military achievements recognised internationally. It's only news because he was a prominent Republican opponent of President Trump but I wouldn't say that meets the criteria. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 07:07, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Blurb - sad news, and McCain was a highly respected statesman, but he does not merit a blurb. He never held the office of president, and never was head of state. If we post all significant politicians as blurbs, we will never stop. Added to this is the fact that his death was anticipated, and the media knew it was coming from a year out. Sad news, but not a surprise, and not a world-altering figure. Stormy clouds (talk) 07:35, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment on the state of the consensus Wikipedia is not a vote, but the support to oppose ratio is 2:1. (~34 to 17 by my count) Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 07:41, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment on the state of the consensus Wikipedia is not a vote, but for some reason you've counted all votes - whether in support of RD or ITN as votes supporting an ITN mention. Openlydialectic (talk) 07:53, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • And now European editors are having a chance to weigh in, the tide is very much turning towards maintaining the status quo, ie RD. We simply don't blurb every American politician who's had plenty of TV time, what next, Sarah Palin? The Rambling Man (talk) 08:06, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose blurb. This is getting a lot of clicks, but one way we avoid bias is by deferring to more objective measures of a person’s “rank”. McCain was a senator (insufficient) and an unsuccessful presidential candidate (insufficient). Readers interested in his biography can click the RD link and that’s enough. LukeSurl t c 08:12, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb. If Kofi Annan's death warrants enough to deserve a blurb, despite receiving far less media attention in both the United States and the rest of the world, John McCain's death deserves one as well. Just because a number of qualified people have died in a short span does not mean that each cannot have their own blurb. Ac2k (talk) 08:15, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Um, Annan was UN sec-gen and Nobel Prize winner, McCain was American politician and failed presidential candidate. Mitt Romney and Bob Dole next? The Rambling Man (talk) 08:17, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • If Mitt Romney's and Bob Dole's deaths received a significant amount of media attention around the world, their deaths would deserve a blurb as well. McCain and Annan worked in different fields, as such, it is impossible to compare their achievements at this level. Besides, devaluing McCain as solely an "American" or as a "failed presidential candidate" undermines how influential McCain was in American politics, and how influential American politics is on the rest of the world. Even non-executive American politicians like US senators receive far more attention than the heads of state of small and medium-sized countries. Ac2k (talk) 08:50, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • " received a significant amount of media attention around the world, their deaths would deserve a blurb as well." no, that's absolutely incorrect. Attention in the media does not equate to "transformative" in an individual's actions. McCain was a nice guy, a politician and a failed presidential candidate. He was in no way "transformative". The Rambling Man (talk) 09:14, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think part of the reason would be that US politicians are significantly more influential and famous than national politicians of other countries. McCain and some other prominent US senators and executive branch members are probably the only non heads of state that have some recognition worldwide. Ac2k (talk) 09:05, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Indeed. Kim Kardashian likely has better name recognition in the English-speaking world than Shinzo Abe. Name recognition matters not in the slightest; it's influence that counts. Vanamonde (talk) 09:30, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Blurb the usual complaints of "Systemic Bias" are absolute bollocks, fly in the face of "Please do not ... oppose an item because the event is only relating to a single country, or failing to relate to one." and should be rightly ignored as disruptive crap that has no bearing on the nomination. That said, my bar for death blurbs is very high, McCain is not of Mandela/Thatcher notability or influence (neither is any other individual presently in the box) and this is what RD is for. Can we please stop trying to blurb everyone? Please? --LaserLegs (talk) 09:26, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    That's not what the complaints of systemic bias are about, as you would know if you had actually read all of them. It's not "McCain isn't blurb-worthy because he had only domestic influence." It's "McCain isn't blurb-worthy, because his influence was not that large; and if a similar politician from another country had been nominated, they'd have been shot down in flames, as Aircorn noted." That's systemic bias. Vanamonde (talk) 09:30, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • A few quotes from above: "Oppose blurb domestic news", "Oppose blurb" ... his achievements were essentially all domestic.", "All that is just domestic politics, and we routinely do not post stories that relate only to one country's domestic politics.". AKA the usual "Waaaa I don't like America" even one person dragged up the old USAPEDIA trope. Like I said, usual crap. --LaserLegs (talk) 09:35, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support RD/Oppose blurb not a globally transformative world leader (which is the ITN criteria for a blurb). MurielMary (talk) 09:33, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support RD/Oppose blurb not a country/world leader. No real lasting impact internationally when compared against Mandela etc. Arguably the McCain-Feingold is important domestically to the US - but domestic campaign finance reform is not exactly blurb-worthy. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:44, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose blurb. Insufficient international notability. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:08, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Blurb - Sufficient arguments have been provided above. Sherenk1 (talk) 10:13, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose blurb - I don't like to engage in WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, but since we lack proper guidelines, ITN is all about precendent. And given that we failed to post blurb for the death of an eight-year Australian prime minister, I don't think that the a career senator and one-time presidential candidate transcends the world stage in the same way as Vajpayee, Annan or Aretha Franklin.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:54, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • (Closed) Consensus will not develop to post as a blurb. Stephen 11:01, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Boldly re-opening as discussion had only be open for 11 hours, and the state of the consensus is around 35 for support blurb, and around 24 for oppose blurb, which is a narrow consensus. Davey2116 (talk) 16:36, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's not as if I don't already know that. But the arguments being made on both sides aren't noticeably different in strength; if anything, the supports are pointing to the immense (international) coverage of his death and his long career as a legislator, and some of the opposes are only based on "systemic bias", which is invalid because a resolve to post more non-U.S. stories does not mean that U.S. stories should not be posted. Davey2116 (talk) 16:52, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Closed) Catalans Dragons win 2018 Challenge Cup

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Opposition apparent. Kingsif (talk) 17:17, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

 
Articles: 2018 Challenge Cup (talk · history · tag) and Catalans Dragons (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ The Catalans Dragons rugby league team (pictured), based in the South of France, win the 2018 Challenge Cup final, becoming the first team not from the North of England to do so. (Post)
News source(s): (BBC)
Credits:

Article updated
Nominator's comments: Winner of a big sporting competition, especially notable since every other winner has come from within 100 miles of each other, and this team is from a whole other country. Kingsif (talk) 21:32, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose on current quality; they're not the "defending champions", and the entire article body are box scores; we've avoided posting major championships (such as Wimbledon) because of that. Regarding notability: I've never heard of this, but it might make the cut, especially in a very slow news week. power~enwiki (π, ν) 21:38, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment It no longer says "defending champions", and it has some detailed sections before the box scores. To answer notability for you: the championship is the competition between over 100 teams to determine the best rugby league team in the entire Northern Hemisphere. Kingsif (talk) 22:18, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would support this on notability - it is a big deal in Rugby League - but the article is in no way ready for the Main Page - there isn't a single piece of prose about the final, let alone many of the rounds before it. So, at the moment, Oppose. Black Kite (talk) 00:27, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose There has to be some limit to the number of rugby events posted. We already have 7 on ITN, and there's been at least 2 additional posted in the last year. There's a general acceptance that we only post the very top end of competition; American Football has been limited to one for this very reason. ghost 11:27, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • @GreatCaesarsGhost: rugby is not one sport, like football is not one sport. Also, American Football is played in one country, not the world, so the analogy is faulty. Rugby league just had the championship of the entire Northern hemisphere, in which a team from a country that has never won before took the trophy. Would you reconsider? Kingsif (talk) 12:27, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • League and union are distinct codes, but we're not talking golf & tennis; they're very similar. Nevertheless, let us concede for the sake of civility that that the support of league surpasses American Football in breath and width, so it gets more events posted. I'm fine with this; but how many more? Rugby and "soccer" seems to always have another (and another) event that is the biggest thing evar, and we post uncritically because those sports are so big. This event in particular seems to overlap heavily with the ITNR Super League; do we need both? Sports with bigger and wider followings should get more events posted, but there must be limits. ghost 13:08, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The top-level professional rugby league club competition in the Northern hemisphere are the Women's Super League (rugby league) and Super League. If this were to be posted that would be a change to WP:ITNR#Rugby league. I do not see "the first team not from the North of England to do so" as an especially exceptional achievement in light of the fact that this is already limited to the Northern Hemisphere and is AFAIK the second-level competition in the Northern Hemisphere. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 14:43, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Though I would disagree — the North of England is an area covering a few hundred miles, with the Northern Hemisphere being literally half the world, and have apparently dominated this competition for its entire history — it's clear that nobody wants to post this, it seems from lack of Wikipedia coverage of Rugby league in general. From reading the articles and searching the web, the Challenge Cup is not "second-level" to the Super League, which is mostly British teams and has only been played for 20 years. The Challenge Cup article itself explains how placement in the Super League affects if teams can enter the Challenge Cup, it seems like they are actually equal level. Perhaps Wikipedia needs more information on Rugby League completely, but that's for someone else. I also don't have the knowledge to expand the page with prose, but I have asked in the WP for Rugby League. Kingsif (talk) 16:09, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

August 24

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August 24, 2018 (2018-08-24) (Friday)
Art and culture

Business and economy

Disasters and accidents
  • A bus plunges off a bridge onto a train track due to a malfunction near Kuopio, Finland, killing four people and injuring 20 others. (Yle News)

International relations

Politics and elections

(Posted) RD: Russ Heath

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Article: Russ Heath (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Hollywood Reporter
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: American comic book artist. Fuebaey (talk) 21:52, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Trudy Stevenson

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Article: Trudy Stevenson (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Zimbabwean politician and ambassador. Article is updated and appears to be suitably sourced - Dumelow (talk) 13:18, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Robin Leach

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Article: Robin Leach (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Hollywood Reporter ProWrestling.com
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Host of Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous StrikerforceTalk 15:24, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) Malcolm Turnbull resigns

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Article: Liberal Party of Australia leadership spills, 2018 (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Australian prime minister Malcolm Turnbull resigns following a leadership challenge. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Scott Morrison (pictured) becomes the new Prime Minister of Australia following Malcolm Turnbull's resignation.
Alternative blurb II: ​ Scott Morrison (pictured) replaces Malcolm Turnbull as Prime Minister of Australia, after a party room vote.
Alternative blurb III: ​ Scott Morrison is set to become Prime Minister of Australia, replacing incumbent Malcolm Turnbull as leader of the Liberal Party of Australia after a party room vote.
News source(s): [8]
Credits:

Nominator's comments: Currently breaking; as he's now leaving the PM position (and the Parliament of Australia entirely) this has become notable enough to be a feasible ITN story. Sourcing is currently weak as I'm not sure this has officially happened yet. power~enwiki (π, ν) 01:51, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment it's currently 11:54AM in Sydney; reliable sources say that he will resign at the meeting starting at 12:00PM. I expect that by 1-2PM the news articles and Wiki article will be updated; it's not ready yet. power~enwiki (π, ν) 01:55, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I've added Altblurb III and my support vote below, but this would have been a much 'cleaner' nomination process if you had just waited another 1 to 2 hours before creating this nomination. Chrisclear (talk) 03:39, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Added alt-blurb with Scott Morrison as new-PM [9] [10]. I'm not 100% sure he is PM yet and not just the presumptive next PM. power~enwiki (π, ν) 02:55, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Presumptive. He needs to be sworn in, which will take a few more hours. -dmmaus (talk) 03:09, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
If he gets sworn in today we should wait; if it's not going to be until September we should go with "presumptive" in the blurb. power~enwiki (π, ν) 03:32, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've added that as ALT2. power~enwiki (π, ν) 03:02, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment This is ITN/R, so the only concern should be article quality, and the leadership challenge article is quite good. That being said, I think the Scott Morrison article should be bolded, and it has several missing refs. In addition, not all of the articles have been updated with the change. Davey2116 (talk) 03:04, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Davey2116 The community has found it better to debate them on their own merits. The head of government is a position of varying degrees, depending on the country. In some, the head of government is a puppet figure or otherwise a figurehead, while in others it is a powerful, independent position. The context of the change also matters; is it just the PM deciding to retire, or were they tossed out? Changes in head of government are often posted as part of a general election. 331dot (talk) 10:40, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

*Comment I added altblurb III. Altblurb I and Altblurb II are incorrect because they mistakenly suggest that Scott Morrison is already Prime Minister, without yet having being sworn in by the Governor General. Chrisclear (talk) 03:30, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment I agree that (my) Alt III is wordy. It could be shortened to be similar to Alt I or Alt II. The important thing that needs to be conveyed in the blurb is that Scott Morrison is not yet Prime Minster, despite having won the vote. (It is nearly certain that he will be Prime Minister within the next 78 hours, following a meeting with the Governor-General). Chrisclear (talk) 03:45, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm happy for a slight rewording of blurb 2 to reflect SM is not PM yet. But I have two problems with blurb 3: (1) no need to mention Liberal Party, and more importantly (2) Morrison did not defeat Turnbull in the spill. That's why I went for the very bland "after a party room vote". Adpete (talk) 04:06, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the feedback, I have updated Altblurb3 to remove the reference to Turnbull's participation in the vote. Chrisclear (talk) 04:26, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support once he is sworn in. ScoMo has said he will visit the Governor-General "later this evening" [11], so we might as well wait until then (and use the time to ensure the articles are updated), and then use the word "replaces" instead of "set to replace/become". And since it's apparently not automatically ITN, for the record I strongly support posting it. I still prefer my AltBlurb II (with first and last items bolded) but I'll let others decide. Adpete (talk) 07:04, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Morrison has now been sworn in - http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-24/live-scott-morrison-replaces-malcolm-turnbull-as-pm-after-spill/10159462 HiLo48 (talk) 09:19, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose/question what's the importance here? For me, a foreign observer, is appears it's just a regular standard change in leadership, and we normally don't post minor regular domestic news that, do we? Otherwise the ITN would be filled ith similar domestic news because party leaderships change almost every day in various countries across the world. Openlydialectic (talk) 07:42, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think you may have answered your own question. It's the removal/resignation of the 29th Prime Minister of Australia and the swearing in of the 30th Prime Minister of Australia. This is major and not "minor domestic" news. Chrisclear (talk) 08:01, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The two are not worthy of comparison. A strike is just a strike. A change of Prime Minister has far-reaching effects relating to the policies of the Australian government. Chrisclear (talk) 08:38, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Italy has a tendency of rapidly changing PMs and yet we always post them. A change of the head of the government is ITNR. In any case, now that Morrison has been sworn in, what article to bold? --Tone 09:33, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Tone A change in head of government is not automatically ITNR; it is only a change in head of state.(which in Australia is Elizabeth II) Changes in head of government are ITNR only when posted as part of a general election. 331dot (talk) 10:24, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The story of how the leadership changed is covered in the article at the top of the nomination - Liberal Party of Australia leadership spills, 2018 - so that's the right one. HiLo48 (talk) 10:17, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. I'm not clear from what I've read on the reason for the leadership dispute. Is there a scandal of some kind, or is it just the party wanting someone else? 331dot (talk) 10:27, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
How long have you got? There is no simple answer. Lots of egos and ideological stuff. Have a look at http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-24/malcolm-turnbull-liberal-party-fear-comes-to-pass/10160764 for some insight. HiLo48 (talk) 10:31, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

August 23

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August 23, 2018 (2018-08-23) (Thursday)
Business and economy

Disasters and accidents

International relations

Law and crime
  • 2018 California wildfires
    • Authorities arrest 32-year old John Colin Eagle Skoda after investigators concluded that a debris fire he started turned into a 60-square-mile blaze that killed one person and destroyed 35 homes. (ABC News)

Politics and elections

(Posted) RD: Krishna Reddy

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Article: Krishna Reddy (artist) (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Indian artist. Article appears in reasonable condition - Dumelow (talk) 11:19, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Kuldip Nayar

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Article: Kuldip Nayar (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Indian journalist, author and former High Commissioner to the UK. Article appears in reasonable condition - Dumelow (talk) 10:51, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) Efforts to impeach Donald Trump

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This is clearly a non starter. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 17:36, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Efforts to impeach Donald Trump (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ President Donald Trump claims efforts to impeach him would harm the US economy. (Post)
News source(s): BBC News, CNN
Credits:
 Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 17:04, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It's a slow news day, and not much is happening nomination wise, so here's another "Trump engages gob before brain" moment for you to ponder over. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 17:04, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It is, because the article has been updated, the blurb is on the front page of two major newspapers, and we might as well look at some new nominations if nothing else is coming forward. I admit I'm sceptical it'll get much support, but if you don't ask, you don't get. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 17:18, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: Newspaper or not, it is just speculation about something that may happen, not something that actually happened. If it is a slow news day, let the current news stay in their place in the main page until we get real news for new blurbs. Cambalachero (talk) 17:21, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose We should never be posting hypotheticals, even if it is a slow news day. --Masem (t) 17:24, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - I earlier closed this as what appeared to be a joke nom. It's since been opened again. Nonetheless, this is pretty low in terms of novelty, let alone notability, even for ITN's favorite orange buffoon.--WaltCip (talk) 17:26, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

August 22

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August 22, 2018 (2018-08-22) (Wednesday)
Business and economy

Disasters and accidents

Law and crime

Politics and elections

Science and technology

(Posted) RD: Ed King

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Article: Ed King (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): BBC News
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

 Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 21:09, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

He counted off Sweet Home Alabama - what more notability do you want? Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 21:09, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

August 21

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August 21, 2018 (2018-08-21) (Tuesday)
Armed conflicts and attacks
  • War in Afghanistan
    • Mortars are fired at the diplomatic quarter of Kabul during a speech by President Ashraf Ghani. After several hours of fighting, including a helicopter attack on a building behind the Id Gah Mosque, police say the attackers are dead and four people are wounded. (BBC)

Disasters and accidents

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

Science and technology

Sports

(Closed) Michael Cohen guilty plea

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Consensus will not develop to post something that may lead to significant presidential impact until something actually happens at that level. Stephen 01:42, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

 
Articles: Michael Cohen (lawyer) (talk · history · tag) and Paul Manafort (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Former lawyer to Donald Trump, Michael Cohen (pictured) pleads guilty to charges of violating campaign finance laws at the direction of the president (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Former lawyer to Donald Trump, Michael Cohen (pictured) pleads guilty to charges of violating campaign finance laws.
Alternative blurb II: ​ Michael Cohen (pictured), former personal attorney of U.S. President Donald Trump, pleads guilty on charges of violating campaign finance laws, while Paul Manafort, former chair of the Trump campaign, is found guilty on charges of bank fraud.
News source(s): [12]
Credits:
 Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:18, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
*Weak oppose on the grounds that if we include this story, we should also consider a mention of the Paul Manafort verdict, as both individuals are a target of the Mueller investigation. As a comment, I have provided an alt blurb that takes out the reference to President Trump, per 331dot's reasoning. StrikerforceTalk 19:47, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
We typically post convictions for this sort of thing, not sentencing. 331dot (talk) 22:09, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
At 37 words, twice as long as most blurbs. Sca (talk) 22:01, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support altblurb 2 per Davey. This is not just another Trump story.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 20:22, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – Per Walt. Too iffy & murky. Sca (talk) 21:09, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Manafort was primarily prosecuted to pressure him to flip. Cohen plead guilty likely after agreeing to flip. The cases themselves are relatively minor and absent a connection to Trump would not be publicized. There might be some step in this to post before an impeachment vote, but this doesn't feel like it to me. 331dot (talk) 22:09, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose the latest in the endless Trump scandal nominations for the same reasons I opposed all of the others. There is a longstanding and very strong consensus at ITN that we do not post domestic domestic political scandals that do not involve the indictment and/or impeachment of the head of state/government. I agree with that consensus. Every country has these kinds of scandals and we don't post them. The United States is not a special case. -Ad Orientem (talk) 22:29, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose If the reasoning is that it's a significant step in a major investigation with possibly head-of-state change result, I think it's a too low of a bar. There are many investigations around the world that can change heads of states, and each can have multiple significant steps. Even the Trump investigation already had a lot of developments that was considered "significant". Posting blurbs for every single one doesn't seem a good use of ITN. HaEr48 (talk) 00:07, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment A little context. --LaserLegs (talk) 23:42, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Ad Orientem. If it leads to something meaningful such as impeachment, sure. But since it has not, no. Hrodvarsson (talk) 00:20, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) RD: Villano III

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Article: Villano III (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): MedioTiempo Sports news
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

  MPJ-DK  19:57, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It appears this has now been addressed as most of the article is referenced. I can still see a few unsourced statements but it’s not far away. Pawnkingthree (talk) 22:37, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Because when you first posted it you linked to Rafael Calventi by mistake. Stephen 06:37, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I did? Well Thank you to whomever fixed that.  MPJ-DK  06:55, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted RD) RD/Blurb: Stefán Karl Stefánsson

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Posted as RD, and will remain so. Stephen 00:12, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Articles: Stefán Karl Stefánsson (talk · history · tag) and LazyTown (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination
Blurb:  Icelandic actor Stefán Karl Stefánsson, known for his role of Robbie Rotten in television drama LazyTown, dies at the age of 43 (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Actor Stefán Karl Stefánsson dies of cancer at the age of 43.
News source(s): Metro
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Best known as Robbie Rotten from Lazy Town. Unfortunately, the -ography section has a number of non-blue works that don't have sources, so its not at quality yet. Masem (t) 19:56, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Neither do I, tbh. Like most people not from the US, I have never even heard about that songstress, and yet for some reason she had a blurb about her death posted to the ITN complete with her picture after only getting 3 supporting votes here. Sad. Openlydialectic (talk) 16:34, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Trying to compare Aretha Franklin#Legacy and honors with an actor that is not relevant even for Europe (outside LazyTown) is sad. © Tbhotch™ (en-2.5). 16:57, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Enough with the generalizing, please. This non-US resident knew pretty well who Aretha Franklin was, even before her death (as did many of my fellow countrypeople). Just because you had not heard of her before does not mean she was not known outside of her country. –FlyingAce✈hello 21:17, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Withdrawn) Missing Iowa college student found dead

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Disappearance of Mollie Tibbetts (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Atlanta Journal-Constitution, Fox News, CBS News
Credits:

Article needs updating
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: University of Iowa college student disappeared while jogging on July 18th. The case drew substantial coverage for some time in the U.S., particularly since an extraordinarily large number of missing persons cases have come from the Interstate 80 corridor and other areas of Iowa since her disappearance. StrikerforceTalk 15:54, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Closed) Discovery of water ice on Moon

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It seems the consensus to post this will not develop. --Tone 09:35, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Lunar water (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Data from Chandrayaan-1 give evidence of exposed water ice at the Moon's polar regions. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Water ice is confirmed at the Moon's poles.
News source(s): BBC, PNAS (peer-reviewed paper)
Credits:

Article updated
 Masem (t) 14:19, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It says nothing about liquid water, now or in the past. This is solid ice in cold traps, never liquid at any stage. Modest Genius talk 15:48, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That doesn't mean the moon at one point had water, as Hornetzilla78 mentions. SamaranEmerald (talk) 16:03, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support alright... this is a discovery. Most of the astronomy related nominations on this board are often times based off speculation violating WP:CRYSTALBALL such as the proposed Alpha Centauri mission in 2069 or a lack of an actual peer-reviewed article, such as the new moons of Jupiter that were discovered awhile back. This nomination however is neither of these two cases, which is why I support this nomination. SamaranEmerald (talk) 15:37, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Changed to Oppose, apparently I jumped to an instant conclusion..., apparently as MG points out, this "discovery" isn't actually a new discovery, the sources note that the actual discovery occurred back in 2009, and that this report is actually only further support for that occurrence. In other words, the blurb is Stale and Misleading. SamaranEmerald (talk) 16:03, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question: Hi, @Modest Genius: Can you please help me understand this comment in the lunar water article? "...mineral-bound water, or hydroxylated mineral surface, must not be confused with water ice." I don't see that "water ice" was reported in 2009 and the press release you cite is talking about "water-rich minerals", but I have only a weak understanding of this topic. [edited] -SusanLesch (talk) 14:49, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I hate to add to a closed discussion, but unfortunately I could not respond to Modest's comment before this was closed, as I believe it mischaracterizes the situation. The 2009 discovered water molecules on the moon, some associated with minerals, so in 2009 we knew there was some water molecules floating around and they were actively tracking them. However, this was not prove of water ice. At that time, they also postulated that these molecules would move towards the poles to become water ice. This report is different significantly and not the same discovery, just led to that by the same instrument/probe. They have discovered strong evidence that there is thick-enough layers of water ice at the poles to absorb infrared in water's signature bands. Now one can argue that the presence of water on the moon was previously affirmed in 2009, and that's valid, but its the fact there's concentrated areas of water ice that is new, and this would be important for anyone attempting to establish a lunar colony there to be able to tap into that water. I don't know if that changes anyone's minds, but I do want to address the difference from 2009. --Masem (t) 18:37, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Masem, MG makes a good case but I'm leaving my support open because this is more than a few molecules. It would help if you or someone could revisit the lunar water article. I went through and removed a ton of repetition but would like to be sure all the M3s are right. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:12, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • comment I Herbert have reopened this following Jayron's earlier SNOW close and Masems comment above. I'm Not opining one way or the other on posting, but seems fair to give the conversation a chance to continue. If it transpires that it's still a clear no then it can be re-snowed.  — Amakuru (talk) 18:55, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – Just water? If they detect coffee on the moon I will consider supporting that. Sca (talk) 20:57, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutral I'd support if the blurb didn't jump the gun. There may have been a find worth posting, but the misleading blurb makes it hard to support the current version. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 21:23, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per Masem. Also if the results weren't novel they wouldn't be published in PNAS. Banedon (talk) 22:12, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: In addition to the initial Chandrayaan-1 finding (Wikipedia:In_the_news/Candidates/September_2009#Water_found_on_moon), there was a second related posting at ITN was made in November 2009: Wikipedia:In_the_news/Candidates/November_2009#Water_found_on_the_Moon. SpencerT•C 01:22, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, it seems like somebody's milking a second publication out of largely the same data, and the media's buying into the hype. Abductive (reasoning) 01:33, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: All we seem to have is a single paper by 2 scientists claiming to have 'definitive' evidence of surface water ice. The BBC indicates caution by putting the claim in quotes in its headline (and beginning the article with 'scientists say'). Our main blurb does not clearly indicate this caution to our readers (the alternative blurb seems so incautious as to be just plain wrong), and seemingly neither does our article (though I found it quite hard to work out exactly what our article is actually saying and whether it was correctly reflecting the sources both in the lead and in the body and I had to go to the 2 sources to work out what was going on, which means we may also have a quality issue). I am also unclear whether or not this paper contradicts earlier different-sounding results reported in the preceding paragraph in the body of our article. And if we put the requisite caution clearly into our main blurb I doubt if the news can seriously be deemed of ITN significance.Tlhslobus (talk) 06:50, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • First, I used "gives evidence" in the blurb to distinguish from "finds". The paper is clear they didn't find water ice, but instead a strong likelihood of water ice by their analysis that little else can account for. Nor does it contradict. As early as 2009 there was discovery of evidence for water molecules across the moon, and with this paper, that those appear to collect at the poles in bodies of water ice. (Also as a peer-reviewed journal, this is not just two random scientists publishing random theories, that's why its peer reviewed). --Masem (t) 17:55, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support We put the Mars-lake discovery on here, so why not this? Ultimograph5 (talk) 15:57, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Obviously notable, still in the news, and look at the terrible selection of ITN stories we've got at the moment - three deaths and a literary award won by someone for the third year in a row for three books in the same series... Black Kite (talk) 17:11, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I agree the current selection is bad; however the only news here is Donald Trump and Mollie Tibbetts. The Liberal Party of Australia leadership spill, 2018 is too parochial. I suppose the 2018 U.S. Prison Strike might be notable, but the article is far too bare-bones to nominate. Hurricane Lane (2018) might need posting soon. power~enwiki (π, ν) 00:41, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

August 20

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August 20, 2018 (2018-08-20) (Monday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Arts and culture

Business and economy

Disasters and accidents

International relations

Law and crime

(Posted) The Stone Sky wins the Hugo Award for Best Novel

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Article: The Stone Sky (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ N. K. Jemisin's (pictured) The Stone Sky wins the Hugo Award for Best Novel. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ N. K. Jemisin (pictured) wins the Hugo Award for Best Novel for a third consecutive time with The Stone Sky.
Credits:

Article updated
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

 Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 23:46, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) Venezuelan bolívar

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No consensus to post. Stephen 00:10, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Articles: Venezuelan bolívar (talk · history · tag) and 2013–present economic crisis in Venezuela (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ To fight hyper-inflation, the Venezuelan government introduces the bolívar soberano, devaluing the bolívar by a factor of 100,000, and raises minimum wages by 3000%. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ To fight hyper-inflation, the Venezuelan government introduces the bolívar soberano, devaluing the bolívar by a factor of 100,000, and raises minimum wages by 3000%.
News source(s): NYtimes, The Guardian
Credits:
Nominator's comments: Its not everyday a government drastically changes the value of its currency. The second article about the crisis is not in great shape so it might not be best to link but provided an alt blurb on this. Masem (t) 18:16, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose the currency crisis in Venezuela has been going on for a long time, I'm not sure this is significant. As a technical concern, the devaluation was only by a factor of 20 [14] (the adjusting of the official exchange rate), the striking of zeros from the currency is something else. The "crypto-currency" angle is getting coverage, but I'm not sure that should be covered here. power~enwiki (π, ν) 19:28, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per above and the fact that even this version of the current ongoing (ongoing ongoing ongoing) "crisis" is almost already stale having been announced five days ago. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:29, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – Per enwiki, TRM. (I wish someone sometime had raised my wages 3,000 percent.) – Sca (talk) 21:56, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose It's not everyday a government drastically changes the value of its currency, but Venezuela does not have an everyday government. It is an interesting story and has received a large amount of coverage though, so it's just a weak oppose from me. Hrodvarsson (talk) 22:39, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. If this were an isolated incident, I'd deem it a good idea to include, but the currency's been failing for a good long while already. Nyttend (talk) 00:09, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • @ZiaLater: as an expert on Venezuela. I'm inclined to Support since it's not every day that a country introduces a new currency. Banedon (talk) 02:38, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Regardless of the crisis, a change of national currency is an event rare enough to justify a blurb. However, the blurb should be fixed: the 3,000% raise in wages sounds incredibly generous if we skip the detail that inflation (basically, the percentage of general price raises, which is usually in a single digit in most countries, and some people in the US is worried because it may get near 3%) by the end of the year is expected to be... 1,000,000%. Yes, that's right, check the link. Yes, the blurb mentions hyperinflation, but such a concept is unheard of by common people in most countries (they only know about it those from countries with grave inflation problems, or those who study economics), and it may be hard to understand that even a 3,000% raise in wages is not enough. And yet, detailing the whole crisis in Venezuela in just a blurb is impossible. Try to reformulate it into a blurb that merely points that there is a new currency, and then we shall see. Cambalachero (talk) 16:41, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Regardless of the crisis, a change of national currency is an event rare enough to justify a blurb. I think the crisis is blurbable, but seems stale. The rarity of reissuing currency is a curiosity, not significant itself. This isn't even the first time Venezuela has done it this century. ghost 17:09, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Another reason for my opposition — the proposal is erroneous. The Sovereign Bolivar article notes that it's reverse: the currency has been revalued 100,000:1, not devalued. Devaluation of 100,000:1 would mean that a kilogramme of pasta with a pre-devaluation price of 695,000 bolivares would have a post-devaluation price of 69,500,000,000 bolivares, not 6.95 bolivares as is apparently the actual situation. Nyttend (talk) 23:04, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reluctant Oppose Venezuela is a political and economic train wreck. But that has been the case for years. Purely on the merits of the story I'd like to support some mention of the catastrophe but as ITN is currently structured, I don't think there is a way. This particular story is stale and I don't think it's a good fit for ongoing. -Ad Orientem (talk) 23:19, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose It only took a day, but the bad reactions to bad economic choices have been shaken out of the news. Kingsif (talk) 03:47, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) RD: Uri Avnery

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Article: Uri Avnery (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The Jerusalem Post
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Article updated and well sourced --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 10:29, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) RD: Jimmy McIlroy

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Stale. Vanamonde (talk) 06:52, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Jimmy McIlroy (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): BBC
Credits:

Article needs updating
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: One of Burnley's legends. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:27, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Done.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 12:35, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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August 19

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August 19, 2018 (2018-08-19) (Sunday)
Disasters and accidents

International relations
Sports

(Closed) Simone Biles sweeps U.S. Championship

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There will be no consensus to post this. --Tone 08:38, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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Article: Simone Biles (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ In women's gymnastics, Simone Biles wins all five titles at U.S. National Championships. (Post)
News source(s): BBC News
Credits:

Article updated
Nominator's comments: Articles looks to be in good shape. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 05:00, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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(Closed) RD: Rafael Calventi

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Stale. Vanamonde (talk) 06:52, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Rafael Calventi (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
  ★ Iñaki ★ (Talk page) ★ 07:52, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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August 18

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August 18, 2018 (2018-08-18) (Saturday)
Arts and culture

Disasters and accidents

Law and crime
  • School violence
    • A school official in Bicol Central Academy, a school in Libmanan, Camarines Sur, Philippines burned students' bags and other personal belongings as a punishment for students who violated the no-bag policy set for the school's event during that time. It was met with huge outrage from the netizens. (Rappler)

Politics and elections

Sports

(Posted) RD: Peter Tapsell

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Article: Peter Tapsell (British politician) (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): BBC, The Guardian, Financial Times
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Member of Parliament for over 50 years. Father of the House from 2010 to 2015. Article needs a little work. Hrodvarsson (talk) 01:01, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oops, meant Posted, which is what I did. Stephen

(Posted) Ongoing: 2018 Kerala floods

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Article: 2018 Kerala floods (talk · history · tag)
Ongoing item nomination (Post)
News source(s): BBC
Credits:

Article updated

Nominator's comments: This is still in BBC top news. Hence should be part of ongoing. Sherenk1 (talk) 10:38, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Readded as blurb) Death of Kofi Annan

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Contentious nom closed. Posted as blurb, rationale at bottom of discussion.--WaltCip (talk) 20:46, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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Article: Kofi Annan (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination
Blurb:  Former UN secretary-general Kofi Annan dies at the age of 80. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Former UN secretary-general Kofi Annan dies at age 80.
Alternative blurb II: ​ Nobel Peace Prize winner and former UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan dies at the age of 80.
News source(s): [15]
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: I haven't touched the article myself; it still has a few unsourced sections but is at about 1 edit per minute right now so those should be fixed soon. I think this is blurb-worthy. power~enwiki (π, ν) 09:48, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • RD only. UN Secretary General is not a particularly important position and Annan was not the world-transformative leader in his field that we typically give a blurb to. 331dot (talk) 09:57, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
We also already have two deaths in the ITN box. 331dot (talk) 09:58, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This is irrelevant. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:22, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Probably, but I think it's something to consider. Readers may wonder what RD is for when most of the ITN box has deaths in it. 331dot (talk) 12:19, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No, we should never change standards just because of what is currently being displayed. Full stop. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:20, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Then we should be prepared for criticism that ITN is turning into RD. That's all I'm saying. 331dot (talk) 14:21, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You've inadvertently disclosed your nationality but I see you have declared it on your user page anyway! Thincat (talk) 10:13, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
What does that have to do with anything? 331dot (talk) 12:19, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • RD only. At least Kofi Annan is a famous person in the world’s political history. Many American or British politicians are nominated and blurbed even though they are not world-transformative as the previous person said. Furthermore, Annan is also a Nobel Peace Prize laureate that should have blurbed this article. If we cannot put the event on “On Going” sections, we can just put this article onto the “Recent Deaths” section.Iagen0509 (talk) 10:10, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • 100% blurb as top man for the UN. However, article is dreadful, so neither RD nor blurb need be discussed right now, just fix the myriad issues. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:12, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support full blurb very notable person, Nobel Prize laureate. No brainer. Article requires some work, of course.- EugεnS¡m¡on 10:25, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I've changed this to RD=Yes, as I don't know why it was No. This doesn't prevent people also asking for a blurb (tho I'm RD Only, see below).Tlhslobus (talk) 10:28, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • RD only - per 331dot. Being top man at the UN ensures you are well known, but usually doesn't make all that much difference in practice to all that many people, due to the limited powers of both the UN and of its boss. And his Nobel Peace Prize seems to be about as meaningless as Obama's (I liked and broadly approved of Annan and Obama, but that's beside the point).Tlhslobus (talk) 10:28, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb - absolutely worthy of a blurb, as the world-famous and significant ruler of a leading global organisation. Absolutely worthy of a blurb, alongside the two already listed. It is not every week that ITN has three death blurbs, but then again, it is not every week that three figures of global renown and importance die. Support blurb pending article improvements. Stormy clouds (talk) 10:38, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The U.N. Secretary General doesn't "rule" the U.N. so much as they oversee it. The real power of the U.N. is in the Security Council. 331dot (talk) 12:23, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb - that there will be three death blurbs on MP does not matter one jot. It's just the way the dice fall. Leader of a global organization for a number of years, highly respected and worthy of a blurb. Mjroots (talk) 10:40, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose at the moment given level of referencing. Would support blurb given he was the first black African Secretary General and I would argue the highest profile Secretary-General this century. Capitalistroadster (talk) 10:48, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • RD only. This is why we have the recent deaths section, so that we'll have space in the blurbs for events that have more impact in the present, instead of deaths of people, regardless of how great things they have done in the past. Mikael Häggström (talk) 11:33, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that's accurate at all. My reading of the RFC is that the chief benefit of the "new" policy is that we would limit ghastly devil's advocacy against the worthiness of the recently deceased (see discussion of the "random" Ms. Franklin). Intentional of not, it also provided less prominent personalities a figurative day in the sun (post their literal last day in the sun). ghost 13:19, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Obama got one primarily because he was not George Bush, not for anything he did.(which he would admit) Getting one doesn't necessarily reflect their influence on the world. 331dot (talk) 12:26, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
If Obama were to die tomorrow he'd get a blurb, not just a RD. --Gerrit CUTEDH 12:53, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
If Obama, Bush Sr, Carter or Clinton were to die tomorrow I'd oppose blurbs. --LaserLegs (talk) 13:23, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Obama??! That's completely bonkers. The Rambling Man (talk)
Aside from being the first black POTUS, he wasn't especially transformative, I don't consider a nobel prize to be "blurb worthy upon death" for anyone. --LaserLegs (talk) 20:50, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's worth just ignoring LL if he's not commenting on the article being discussed. He's welcome to his opinion as long as he doesn't become disruptive when the consensus feels otherwise. power~enwiki (π, ν) 20:53, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Getting one doesn't necessarily reflect their influence on the world. this kind of POV speculation is not a good example to set around here. How many Nobel Peace Prize winners have there ever been? It's not up to us to decide how worthy these individuals were. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:22, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure winning a Nobel Prize should be a ticket to a blurb for a deceased person. 331dot (talk) 14:24, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Me neither. Pawnkingthree (talk) 18:47, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
But that's not quite all he did, now is it? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:28, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
PS: Annan, who lived in Switzerland, is described by the Zürich paper as "the moral conscience of the world." He was also the first black African to be elected secretary-general. Sca (talk) 14:51, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"world-transformative figure." is a subjective and vague label. It can't be objectively defined. –Ammarpad (talk) 14:51, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • As of this writing, the article has had a two-sentence update (and the sentences, one of which is in the lede, are nearly identical) conveying no information beyond what's in the blurb, and is fairly littered with citation-needed tags. It's not postable to the main page in this state no matter how many people vote support. —Cryptic 14:27, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose RD/Blurb on quality, support blurb if updated - As Cryptic just pointed out, we're nowhere close for this being posted even as an RD. I would support a blurb, not so much as the UN SG (not really an elected position as with most other world leaders) but as a Nobel Peace laureate (which *is* a significant honor/importance). --Masem (t) 14:43, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb: Very important and influential person, and literally all over the world. Worthy of blurb. Article seems alright now, perhaps could have a few more references for its length but it's not specifically lacking. Coverage good, too.Kingsif (talk) 15:17, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • RD only An important person who deserves RD nomination. Not sure, if every Secretary General of UN should figure in blurb [per contributions to the mankind].Regards, theTigerKing  16:03, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Vaibhavgupta1989: As long as someone merits an article, they merit posting to RD. Importance is no longer judged for RD nominations. 331dot (talk) 16:39, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose blurb - It's true he received a Nobel Peace Prize, but he simply isn't a transformative world-leader figure a'la Thatcher or Mandela. WaltCip (talk) 16:22, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong support blurb except for article quality; Kofi Annan is a household name. I think the Thatcher/Mandela standard is ludicrously restrictive. As for the concern that there would then be three death-blurbs on the main page, that is irrelevant. We post events as they happen, there is no quota. Davey2116 (talk) 17:11, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It isn't irrelevant when we have a section of the ITN box dedicated to deaths. 331dot (talk) 19:06, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • (P.S.: I know that "if we posted X, then we should post Y" arguments are not generally valid here, but it'd be questionable to post (with all due respect) Aretha Franklin and Atal Bihari Vajpayee and not post Annan, since Annan was at least as prominent (if not more) than they were. Davey2116 (talk) 17:17, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • +1. –Ammarpad (talk) 18:43, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • Disagree that Annan is a "household name". I think if you asked the average person on your average street corner if they knew Kofi Annan died, they would say "Kofi who?" Most people in the world don't know who the UN secretary general is- but they have heard of people like Reagan, Thatcher, Mandela, and Aretha Franklin. 331dot (talk) 19:06, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
        • You know the danger with such hypothetical? I knew who Kofi Annan was even as a child (when he was UN SG). I've never heard of Aretha Franklin until her death being in the news, and even now I had to double check that's who you were talking about. -- KTC (talk) 19:26, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
          • I did say "average", which by its nature would leave out people who may know who he was. We likely have different world perspectives on this, which I respect- but I can only give my opinion based on it. 331dot (talk) 19:35, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
            • Your definition of average is seriously those who don't know who he is? Why aren't I an "average person on average street corner"? Just because I'm involved in Wikipedia doesn't mean I'm magically more knowledgable about any particular subject apart from Wikipedia itself. I don't follow politics apart from what pops up in the news and now social media. I certainly don't follow international politics. I'm not Ghanaian or even African who may be more likely to know of a UN SG from Ghana. Again, the danger with "if you ask the average person on the..." hypothetical is one inevitably answer it with their personal bias, so unless you have actually conducted such a survey and preferably in multiple countries, it's not a very helpful line of argument. -- KTC (talk) 19:53, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Annan's status as a "household name" was greatest during his tenure as general-secretary (1996-2007), when he was often in the news, and a decade later it may have faded somewhat, at least among younger readers. That in no way diminishes his notability, however, and we should have a blurb. Sca (talk) 15:37, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support blurb His death news are all over the world online news. His article is complete enough already, his position in the UN was considered the top in world politics/diplomacy. What else? Everything is there already to show his nobility. If a singer (Aretha Franklin) can be written in the news, then I don't know what to say if a world leader (plus noble price winner) can't be written there. Please don't get priority wrong based on mainstream popularity. Chongkian (talk) 18:02, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose blurb - (Support RD) Notable for sure, but weak legacy as U.N. Secretary-General, who also died many years after retirement. --Bruzaholm (talk) 18:41, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb if article is up to standards. I don't agree with the "not a world-transformative figure" assessment or standard. Annan was UN SecGen for ten years, received a Nobel Peace Prize and was - for me and many my age - the first SecGen we ever knew about. Annan was also Under-SecGen for peacekeeping in a time of huge conflicts like Bosnian War and the Rwandan genocide. Regards SoWhy 18:53, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Well the first one I knew about was Boutros Boutros-Ghali and he didn’t get a blurb. Pawnkingthree (talk) 19:07, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Admin notice: RD posted. Given that there is clear support for at least a RD notice, I've posted that. Discussion about whether to include a blurb can continue. Opinion about this appears split. Sandstein 19:56, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pull @Sandstein:, there are uncited paragraphs in this article. It is not up to main page standards yet. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:02, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, consensus here says otherwise. There's a few people above objecting to the article's quality, but everybody else supports either a blurb or a RD notice. But I won't object to another admin with more ITN experience pulling this if they think it's necessary. I think that would be a disservice to our readers, though. Sandstein 20:10, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • When we have cases of people arguing on blurb vs RD (particularly this noisy), editors tend to forget about checking on sourcing. That still has to be checked even by the posting admin. Don't assuming cases like this where in the blurb vs RD that the RD is automatically find because people support an RD over a blurb. --Masem (t) 20:42, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment the sourcing wouldn't pass muster for a Featured Article, but is good enough for RD. I don't doubt the accuracy of the claim that he received a degree from The George Washington University; and removing it wouldn't hurt the article if there was some reason to doubt it. Others (was he "lauded by Kenyans" for the Kenya National Dialogue and Reconciliation Process?) are editing issues, and many are likely included in other references in the paragraphs (but not in sentence-by-sentence attribution). power~enwiki (π, ν) 20:25, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pull what a complete joke. Something like 37 [citation needed] tags across a BLP and it gets a drive-by posting? This sets an all-time low threshold. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:32, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pulled As noted, the source is still bad (15+ CNs for example). I recommend when people are arguing over RD/blurb that posting admins use more care to arguments related to sourcing/quality before posting the RD, since that gets lost in the noise of the RD/blurb arguing. --Masem (t) 20:36, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • No blurbs for anyone Everyone dies as surely as everyone poops. If you're famous and your article is in decent shape, you get noted in Recent deaths. Implies the exact same thing we'd spell out redundantly, without pushing news that needs extra words out of the limited spotlight. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:52, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Aye, it's the rapid-fire pattern that made me put my tiny little foot down more than any one of its three "deserving" the "honour" or anything like that. They're all important in their own ways, and whether any one of us appreciates any of those ways depends on what we were into growing up where we did. The important thing is they were all around the age people normally are when they die unremarkable deaths.
If an overpass collapses on Missy Elliot or Narendra Modi is blown apart by a flying robot abroad, they'd be as deserving as the other seven hundred or so mentioned beneath today's stars without pictures. Because that sort of death has significant and lasting ramifications people in or about the presently-affected area should know about, far more urgent than the routine remembrance and replacement of a pop singer or prime minister. It's not like we can fit the seven hundred notable deaths individually in the clearly designated section for recent deaths, like we can for these three and the next one, so it makes sense to count them collectively as blurbs. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:52, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Restore to Recent Deaths - there is no mention at present either in blurb or RD's, which is not acceptable - surely his death is noteworthy regardless of the quality of the article about him. - BobKilcoyne (talk) 04:06, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • The article still has a large # of citation needed tags, and I do not agree the "sweeping under the rug" of moving all the honors he got to a separate article per [16]. It cannot go up as RD in this state. --Masem (t) 04:32, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Support Blurb are we kidding here? The article quality and not the noteworthiness of the news is the debate? If it's a problem, fix the article, don't sweep the news under the rug because we're embarassed the house is messy. 2601:200:4001:E52E:9548:E4CF:7DBE:FB15 (talk) 04:26, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Feel free to fix the article, no-one's going to do it for you. The Rambling Man (talk) 05:41, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support RD once outstanding concerns are fixed: Quite found of Annan, but thinking rationally, his legacy concerning the UN isn't really profound, aside from being the first Black African to hold office and his restructure of the bureaucracy. 106.208.143.177 (talk) 08:58, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I did what I could to fix the article. Annan was part of the few people in power with some kind of conscience. He was also chairman of The Elders (organization). Now there are even fewer of them left. Wakari07 (talk) 14:10, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Re-added as RD, blurb discussion can continue I have reviewed the state of the article, and outside a couple placed that I think we'd prefer to see refs (but on blue-linked organizations), it's no longer in bad shape, so I have readded as an RD at minimum. I've already !voted for blurb, so I leave that assessment to a different admin. --Masem (t) 14:17, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reading of consensus This may not be perfect, but I count 15 in favor of blurb and 11 against. Several of the opposes seem to want to ban on RD blurbs, which is a position I advocate, but ITNC is not the place to change policy. Several others have cited the Mandela/Thatcher threshold, which again I must point out is not a standard adapted by consensus. One may interpret "major transformative world leaders" however s/he wishes, but the frequent citation of these precedents has the risk of clouding policy (like the WP:MINIMUDEATHS fiasco). ghost 15:09, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Restating my support for blurb, if only because the leader of the UN and advocate for human rights through some of most polemic conflicts who has won the Nobel Peace Prize is more worthy of a blurb than the leader of a single nation, one of whom has a blur at the moment. You could pull Vajpayee if concerned about too many RDs. Kingsif (talk) 15:41, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment It is not a competition. Probability tells us that there may come a time where all 4/5 items on ITN will be very notable deaths. It happens! It is not something we should concern ourselves with. If we have consensus, just add this too. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 15:57, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong support blurb. A major figure who was literally the world's top diplomat for a decade. Did important work on HIV/AIDS, peacekeeping etc. Important impacts around the world and Nobel prize winner. It's crazy that we gave blurbs to two people who shouldn't have had them, the refused one of the very rare deaths that do merit a blurb. Modest Genius talk 16:20, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    It's good I'm not the only one noticing the intriguing anomaly of current two RD blurbs of people who are deemed "super-notable" and more worthy of blurb than Annan, whose obvious, global-level achievements need no mention here –Ammarpad (talk) 17:22, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment There's a consensus for a blurb. I completely agree with the above sentiments that Annan is equally worthy of a blurb as Franklin and Vajpayee. Davey2116 (talk) 17:33, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    For me, he shouldn't be blurbed because they're blurbed, it should be other way round. Annan, was a global statesman. He deserves it on his own right way better than both current blurbs. –Ammarpad (talk) 17:46, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I don’t see issue with having 3 deaths on ITN, we regularly have 3 sporting events or 3 disasters posted on ITN. yorkshiresky (talk) 17:41, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yorkshiresky We don't have a "Recent Sporting Events" section or a "Recent Disasters" section in the ITN box. We do have a "Recent Deaths" section and many will wonder why we are putting so many deaths in the ITN box when we have "Recent deaths". 331dot (talk) 19:02, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Because they meet our criterion on global influence and their deaths made international headlines. It is a coincidence that their deaths occurred so close together. We should not concern ourselves with some possible backlash.--- Coffeeandcrumbs 19:39, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb - Major world figure for the past 2-3 decades. Kurtis (talk) 18:53, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb Article is good to go and IMO Annan's impact on the UN and as other political figures put it: Annan had a huge impact on the UN's mission for peace. He won a Nobel Prize and his death his making global headlines. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 18:59, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb per all the above discussion. Annan had a lasting and notable influence on this world and its history. He certainly meets the Thatcher standard whatever that subjective criterion means. Growing up I thought of him as President of the Earth. I am a sci-fi buff and when I saw some futuristic President of Earth, he is the one I thought of. I would argue he ushered in the way for Obama. From a cultural standpoint, it was the first time in my lifetime, we saw a black man as one of the leaders of the free world.--- Coffeeandcrumbs 19:39, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Posted as blurb from RD space. Consensus has emerged through the discussion that Annan is notable enough for a blurb given his contributions to the UN, although some arguments about limited notability of his role as Secretary General were considered. Although some felt he did not meet the standard for a blurb posting, not rising to the level of "Mandela" or "Thatcher", the majority did feel that his impact was substantial enough and his recognition high enough for a blurb. Referencing issues appear to have been resolved, and Annan's article has solid depth of coverage of his life and work. Concerns about number of deaths listed as ITN blurbs or comparison of Annan's notability to that of Franklin or Vajpayee, or suggestions that all deaths should be posted to RD, were not considered; concerns related to ITN and RD procedures such as these should be addressed in a wider RFC, rather than an individual nom. Best, SpencerT•C 19:54, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted blurb) 2018 Asian Games

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Article: 2018 Asian Games (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ The Asian Games open in Jakarta and Palembang, Indonesia. (Post)
Credits:

Nominator's comments: The opening ceremony will begin at 12.00 UTC. Hddty. (talk) 00:02, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment Just need several additional sources for "Venues and infrastructures" section and a single source will probably suffice for the "Calendar" section, and then you have my vote.--- Coffeeandcrumbs 00:37, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I am specifically talk about the lack of sources in the tables in the sections I mentioned. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 05:06, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I have added source on venues table and calendar. Hddty. (talk) 11:03, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
We still need a source for the capacity of the stadiums and venues. Also there is a faulty source in "Marketing" section. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 19:28, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support Ready to post, @Spencer:. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 06:29, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there any chance it's marked as Ongoing? --Angga1061 01:25, 18 August 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Angga1061 (talk • contribs)
I don't see why it shouldn't have a blurb first. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 01:55, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

August 17

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August 17, 2018 (2018-08-17) (Friday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Disasters and accidents

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

(Closed) RD: Leonard Boswell

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Stale. Stephen 00:18, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Leonard Boswell (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Des Moines Register
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Needs a few more sources – Muboshgu (talk) 14:10, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Closed) Imran Khan

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Consensus against posting as the election results were posted in July. --Tone 08:40, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

 
Articles: Imran Khan (talk · history · tag) and Prime Minister of Pakistan (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Imran Khan, former cricketer and chairman of Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf, is elected Prime Minister of Pakistan (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Imran Khan is elected Prime Minister of Pakistan
Alternative blurb II: ​ Imran Khan, aged 65, is elected Prime Minister of Pakistan
News source(s): Al Jazeera
Credits:
Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 20:47, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That was different, he is elected prime minister today. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 21:30, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Was there any chance that from the July election that Khan would not have been elected now? We treated the July election as ITNR. --Masem (t) 22:24, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Masem: Yes, there was a great chance that he would not have been elected. His party had a very thin plurality, it went a lot into building a coalition. For example if MQM-P would not have decided to support PTI and few independents would have supported the parties in opposition and opposition have been intact then there was a great chance that Shehbaz Sharif might have won. At the time of July election, it was not clear which way MQM-P would go. Also, after July elections, parties in opposition formed a Grand Alliance, only right before the election of prime minister, one party split up. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 22:41, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Just trying to make sure, this was an unusual case in that there was a good chance that he would not have been elected? (To compare, while the US elects the president in Nov, he's not inaugerated until Jan, and there are things that can happen, like death, that could disrupt that, but nearly no legal process (short of Bush v Gore) that could disrupt that, so we announced the US president in Nov. Obviously if something changed in that rare case, we'd likely post it here. I want to make sure we're talking a similar type of case here, this being a rare alignment of conditions leading to this point. ) --Masem (t) 23:00, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Of course, we could always consider each case on its merits rather than having to Wikilawyer everything into neat shoeboxes. In the case of the recent US election/inauguration, despite not being an American myself I argued strongly that both were necessary for ITN due to the global coverage and the expectation of our readers to find appropriate links on the main page. I know you and I respectfully disagree on that issue Masem, but sometimes there is room for flexibility anyway.  — Amakuru (talk) 23:07, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
If my years growing up in Canada taught me anything about this system, Khan was all but certain to form a government. The Dutch(?) or some Baltic country went like a year and a half without forming a government. This isn't news. Sorry. --LaserLegs (talk) 23:14, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

MQM-P and his PTI were bitter rivals before the elections. It was well after a couple of weeks after the election when they decided to vote for him. There was a talk that if they did not support him and if he could not sway independents, he would not win premiership. US case is different, it is almost set in stone on election night who is going to be president come January. That was not the case in Pakistan. This guy had a 22 year old political struggle. There were a lot of players involved which included judiciary, military, and intelligence agencies. There was a thought that Shehbaz Sharif might be more suitable to these powers as Khan might not prove as much subservient as Sharif. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 23:57, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Power~enwiki: There is a difference between his party winning a thin plurality and him being actually elected prime minister. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 00:02, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This is not ITNR. 331dot (talk) 00:58, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
My mistake. I now see the distinction made between head of state and head of government. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 01:07, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
331dot, I know it doesn't much matter in practice in this instance, but you've got two identical votes showing here, which 'looks all wrong', so perhaps you might remove one of them, please.Tlhslobus (talk) 03:49, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. Not sure how I duplicated that. Thank you 331dot (talk) 07:38, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose After election it was quite clear that PTI'll form the next government and Khan'll be its head. I know there was a thin plurality but still 116 seats is much more than PML(N)'s 64. Yeah if PML(N) had formed the government that'd have been surprising and we could've posted it just like how PTI formed government in Punjab despite securing less seats than PMLN. We cann't post a news saying "the leader of a party winning 116 seats (that's 33 more than 2nd party in the list) has been elected PM", as it was most likely, but we could've posted a blurb stating the "2nd most successful party's leader has been elected PM", as it'd have been surprising. Amirk94391 (talk) 02:43, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Amirk94391: And, yet Khan got 176 votes while 172 were required hence my point that if MQM-P's four votes and just a couple of independents were not there for him and if current opposition had a united candidate which they had until two days before premier's election then Khan would not have won. I know it is not surprising but this guy is striving to become prime minister for last 22 years and finally becoming a prime minister in a country where change does not happen too often is incredibly important news. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 02:53, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • @SheriffIsInTown: As per section 91 (4) of PPC (a bit eleborated here) if no one secures 172 votes there should be a round two between top two contestants of first round and the winner of round two'd become PM regardless of weather he/she received 172 votes or not. So even if Khan hadn't secured 172 votes he was still most likely to become PM. Moreover there was never a fight for government formation in centre. What you're saying is that if Khan wasn't supported by allies of PTI and some independents he would never've became PM. Well from my elaboration of Section 91 above it is clear that only PTI candidates alone could have elected Khan as PM in round two as opposition was divided. Amirk94391 (talk) 04:00, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - As per above. Sherenk1 (talk) 05:59, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Closed) RD: David McReynolds

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Stale. Stephen 00:17, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: David McReynolds (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): N.Y. Daily News
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Well known peace activist. Station1 (talk) 17:58, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

August 16

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August 16, 2018 (2018-08-16) (Thursday)
Arts and culture
Business and economy
Disasters and accidents
Law and crime
Politics and elections
Sports

(Posted) RD: Yelena Shushunova

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Article: Yelena Shushunova (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Washington Post
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Olympic gold medalist in one of the main events, early death. Needs more sourcing, but shouldn't be too hard to finish Fram (talk) 09:35, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Michael Persinger

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Article: Michael Persinger (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): CBC
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Article overall well sourced --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 00:37, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted blurb): Aretha Franklin

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closing per law of diminishing returns. Discussion is becoming less useful by the second. --Jayron32 11:53, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

 
Article: Aretha Franklin (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination
Blurb:  Singer-songwriter Aretha Franklin dies from pancreatic cancer aged 76. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Singer-songwriter Aretha Franklin, dubbed "The Queen of Soul", dies from pancreatic cancer aged 76.
Alternative blurb II: ​ American singer and songwriter Aretha Franklin dies aged 76.
News source(s): AP
Credits:

Article needs updating
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: American singer / songerwriter StrikerforceTalk 14:06, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Now Strong support for blurb - whole article is referenced. Also see RIP Aretha Franklin: Five ways the Queen of Soul made history for more convincing arguments about blurb. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 16:06, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As I write, the front page of BBC News has live reactions to Aretha's death left, right and centre. This is not just your typical musician's obituary. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 16:08, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Purely from a factual standpoint, this isn't "an old person dying of natural causes". She had pancreatic cancer. StrikerforceTalk 16:16, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Is cancer not natural? Modest Genius talk 16:48, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, cancer is one of the main ways that old people die and as much as it's tragic, there's nothing unnatural about it.  — Amakuru (talk) 17:37, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
GuzzyG Fischer and Walker were not old people who died of natural causes; their deaths were news themselves. 331dot (talk) 16:12, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
None of those should have had blurbs IMO. Modest Genius talk 16:48, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Good thing the decision-making process here is based on consensus and not on opinion.--WaltCip (talk) 17:04, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"Consensus" is often just an aggregation of opinions though. Particularly so at ITN which lacks almost any policy or guidelines to support our recommendations.  — Amakuru (talk) 17:41, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Top story under Entertainment at Google News. [17] StrikerforceTalk 16:47, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, under the "entertainment" section. --LaserLegs (talk) 17:05, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Top story on BBC News, The Guardian, The Independent. LaserLegs I'm going to wager you a tenner that when I go to the newsagent tomorrow morning, Aretha will be on the front cover of every broadsheet newspaper. (And she's not British). Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 16:54, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
But will she still be there the day after tomorrow? Doubtful. Poor old slow print media. So slow. So old. --LaserLegs (talk) 17:05, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
And it's not often the BBC Radio 4 6 O'clock chimes get ushered in by a little prayer. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:19, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Prediction confirmed! I didn't think all the tabloids would follow suit, but despite The Sun being desperate to stick the knife into Danny Cipriani, every national British newspaper (including the Financial Times and the Daily Star) has got Aretha on the front cover. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 09:17, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Also front page news for Al Jazeera and Times of Israel. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:18, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
She was #9 on the Rolling Stone list of Greatest Singers of All Time and ranked 19th among the Billboard Hot 100 All-Time top artists.
She was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom and was only the second woman to be inducted to the UK Music Hall of Fame in 2005.
--- Coffeeandcrumbs 16:41, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes indeed. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:15, 16 August 2018 (UTC) [reply]
  • Weakest possible oppose to blurb I am not going to stand in the way of a blurb post, but I would like to point out the difference between Franklin and Bowie or Prince is that the latter were still touring and performing and their deaths were sudden, while Franklin was no longer singing, was known to be suffering from cancer, and had been hospitalized earlier in the week, so it was more a matter of when, not if. I fully otherwise see the reasons to post, and given we've been slow on blurbs lately, there's good reasons to use a blurb here. (but keep in mind about the India PM which definitely should get a blurb once to quality). --Masem (t) 17:11, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
(ec with post) Mandela retired 9 to 14 years before his death and his death was expected. Did we not post that? (I haven't cehced the archives)--- Coffeeandcrumbs 17:19, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
We certainly did post and posted Peter O'Toole the same month (aged 81). --- Coffeeandcrumbs 17:28, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure the photo is sufficiently free, it's a Billboard advert photo from 1968 without a copyright notice, making it PD in the US but not elsewhere. You could try File:Aretha Franklin on January 20, 2009.jpg, which is a US government work and is PD, full stop. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 17:47, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
File:Aretha Franklin on January 20, 2009.jpg and File:Arethafranklin.jpg and File:Aretha Franklin.jpg are all free to use, but may not be up to quality standards of the main page; no picture may be better than a bad one. Others all seem to suffer from the copyright issues noted above. --Jayron32 17:54, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think the first of those is too bad; it's a professional shot and wouldn't look out of place on a main news ticker, in my view. The other two, definitely not. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 18:03, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support image File:Aretha Franklin on January 20, 2009.jpg or File:Aretha Franklin 1968.jpg Haxwell (talk) 19:17, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Guys, consensus or not, this was posted before the referencing issue was fixed. In any case, I won't contest it, I will just remove the cause of death, since this is not the main focus here (we'd mention an accident but not an illness). --Tone 17:44, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Alternate blurb? The current is "American singer-songwriter Aretha Franklin (pictured) dies at the age of 76." Would there be any objection to changing it to "American singer Aretha Franklin (pictured) dies at the age of 76"? Two reasons: (1) Although she wrote some songs, her notability comes much more from her singing than her songwriting. (2) The term "singer-songwriter" implies a tradition and a way of working, as our article on the topic indicates, that does not really fit for her. Paul Erik (talk)(contribs) 19:29, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I would object. She has hundreds maybe thousands of credits on Allmusic.com for either composer or composer/lyricist or both or just lyricist. She was a singer-songwriter. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 19:50, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
But her article calls her a "singer and songwriter", which is not quite thing as "singer-songwriter" - that is used for an artist who almost exclusively performs their own material.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 19:59, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Paul Erik and Pawnkingthree. Though mass media does often confuse the two, there is a difference between a singer-songwriter and somebody who writes and sings their own music. Singer-songwriter is a style/approach espoused by figures like James Taylor, Bob Dylan, Tracy Chapman etc Anarcho-authoritarian (talk) 20:09, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
In any case, if the issue you raise is related only specifically to the term "singer-songwriter", I would be ok with "American singer and songwriter Aretha Franklin...". Otherwise, we are perpetuating the same 1960s B.S. to lessen the contributions of the primary artist, especially women artists. She wrote or contributed to the writing of many of her songs. Give her the credit she has earned and has been recognized for. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 20:13, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. Not sure "singer-songwriter" is appropriate. Also unsure about "pianist". But maybe further discussion is better placed at Talk:Aretha Franklin? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:16, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) I hadn't thought about User:Coffeeandcrumbs's point about what we might be perpetuating. So then yes, I think "singer and songwriter" on the main page would be best. Paul Erik (talk)(contribs) 21:02, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
So can we now go for Altblurb II? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:59, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
But per User:Tone's comment above, I would leave out the cause of death. Paul Erik (talk)(contribs) 21:04, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. In no way significant to her notability. But am wondering about "soul singer and songwriter". Martinevans123 (talk) 21:28, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
 
Franklin (1967)
  • PP comment – It would seem more relevant to her career to use the photo from 1967 (right), when her "signature song" (per our article) Respect hit the charts, or the 1968 mug accompanying this nom (above).
    Also, instead of the rather generic "singer-songwriter," how about "soul singer" – ?? – Sca (talk) 21:55, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No objection to "soul singer". Martinevans123 (talk) 22:02, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Please see discussions above regarding images. Neither the one used in the nom, nor the 1967 one you mention here are suitable for posting on the main page because they are tagged as without a copyright notice, making them public domain in the US but not elsewhere. Also, there seems to be consensus above not to remove the term "songwriter" from the blurb due to her large number of composition and songwriting credits. We could perhaps go with "sould singer and songwriter..." though?  — Amakuru (talk) 23:18, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That would be soul singer and songwriter. Sca (talk) 02:02, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • support for blurb. A soul and music icon. I'm glad it was posted quickly.Johnsemlak (talk) 22:57, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose blurb per LaserLegs. A death should make the main pages, not just the entertainment pages, to be a blurb. Banedon (talk) 23:39, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Post-posting support for rd, neutral on blurb. I don't believe that entertainment figures are to be considered as influential worldwide as figures such as Nelson Mandela or Stephen Hawking, but I'm also not certain that they necessarily need to be in order to warrant an ITN blurb. However, I also don't feel that I'm very qualified to speak of how influential she is or is not, so take this with a grain of salt. If possible, I would change the infobox picture to one of the photographs of her in the 1960s as these are more relevant to her career than the one of her at the Obama inauguration, but I understand that copyright may prevent this from being possible. I agree with the decision to exclude the cause of death, as it is her life that made her death notable, not her death itself. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 01:47, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pull/Oppose blurb Where were other admins looking when someone posted this as a blurb? I am pretty sure we have an established tradition of only posting deaths of Mandela-size figures to the ITN, and this person is sure as hell isn't, neither by the importance, nor by the number of views of her page before her death. Very disappointed in a yet another example of heavy American/Western bias on Wikipedia. Sad. Openlydialectic (talk) 02:09, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pull/Oppose blurb I find it extraordinary that a blurb was posted at 17:17 UTC, only 3 hours 11 minutes after the item was nominated, especially when her death was already on the main page under Recent Deaths. It wouldn't hurt to wait a bit longer to allow all Wikipedians a chance to comment on the nomination, particularly those in Oceania/Asia where it was nighttime when it was hastily posted to the mainpage. Chrisclear (talk) 04:43, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Chrisclear Arbitrary minimum discussion times have been suggested before but never gained consensus. We usually get criticism that we are too slow to post things. 331dot (talk) 07:58, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
331dot I didn't explain myself properly the first time. What I meant was that I don't believe there was strong consensus to post this at 17:17 UTC, and the simple way to resolve that would have been to wait a while longer, to allow consensus to form. I can understand posting an article for a truly influential dead person like Nelson Mandela, but for someone like Aretha Franklin whose influence was smaller, and where consensus had not been formed, it would have been better to wait longer than 3 hours and 11 minutes. Chrisclear (talk) 09:51, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. 331dot (talk) 09:55, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No, not really fair enough. It was already main page news across the globe and had a consensus to post a blurb here. No question about that whatsoever. Would it have been better to wait 4 hours? 6 hours? 12 hours? You can't please all the people all the time, but if you want a minimum waiting time then propose it, but this decision was beyond question at the point it was posted, not a problem at all. We've gone beyond the Mandela requirement and have done for some time (since people like Debbie Reynolds have been blurbed). And as yet, I've seen not one single reader question the decision to post a blurb. So it looks like Wikipedia got it 100% right on this occasion. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:40, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You never having heard of her doesn't mean she was not highly influential in her field, which I believe you would discover in doing research about it. Many media outlets would disagree with you, based on the reporting and her Presidential award she received. 331dot (talk) 07:59, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'd never heard of the Ponte Morandi until last week (and I've worked on quite a few highway and bridge articles myself) but I didn't see much call for pulling that.F Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 08:29, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe you work in health insurance? Martinevans123 (talk) 09:20, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Bing! Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 09:30, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The article received a million views in the days leading up to this nomination being posted. It will be interesting to see what the pageviews are for yesterday, when they come in - I wouldn't be surprised if they topped a million on their own. Also, can we leave out the calls of "bias"; remember that the article has, in part, been improved by a shout out on Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Red, whose very raison d'etre is to help counteract bias (in this case, bias against women, and especially black women). Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 08:29, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Aretha Franklin is still on the front page of the BBC and NYTimes websites, a day after her death. These are online news mediums and not the "old slow print" that LaserLegs was bemoaning with Trumpian rancor. This is a death that is making the world slow down and catch its breath. Posting it as a blurb was the correct decision. Not posting as a blurb would have reeked of systemic bias.--WaltCip (talk) 10:53, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "A death should make the main pages" and indeed it has, across the globe! This underpins the posting of a blurb to be exactly the correct decision. And a belated well done to everyone concerned in bringing the article up in quality. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:58, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. The AP source used as the reference above clearly says A professional singer and accomplished pianist. Aretha was the Queen of Soul music, known mostly by her big voice. Out of her 20 number-one R&B songs, she only wrote two ("Call Me" and "Daydreaming"). That's not enough notability to call her a songwriter. I'd say soul singer is a better description. Bluesatellite (talk) 11:49, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted Blurb) Atal Bihari Vajpayee

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Articles: Atal Bihari Vajpayee (talk · history · tag) and Prime Minister of India (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination
Blurb:  Former Prime Minister of India Atal Bihari Vajpayee dies at the age of 93. (Post)
News source(s): BBC
Credits:

Article needs updating
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Former Indian Prime Minister Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 12:35, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Point of order did the RD option exist then? Hard to imagine Ford would qualify under current standards. Do we intend to blurb the death of every head of state and government if the country is big enough? Do we go by population, geography, or GDP? This could get out of hand quickly. ghost 17:47, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose on sourcing. I would say that death of one that served as the effective head of state for the world's second-most populous nation probably should get a blurb. --Masem (t) 15:14, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As your actually supporting to add the nominations to the blurb. You must actually write 'support' rather than 'oppose'. Please correct the mistake at the earliest. Adithya Pergade (talk) 10:09, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  •   Working; I hope to address the referencing issues soon. And for the record, I agree, the subject definitely deserves a blurb. MBlaze Lightning talk 15:33, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb pending referencing issues are resolved. 39.57.133.182 (talk) 05:17, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong support for a blurb once current issues with referncing are resolved. For those who don't know, Prime-Minister of India's the "real" leader of India, and this guy served as one for a total of 7 years. I wouldn't expect problems with getting a blurb once one of the former US presidents die, and India is a country with 5 times as many people as there are in the US, and since it's a democracy, all of the adults there elected him to his post. So he definitively deserves a blurb, more so than the singer whos death is currently featured on the ITN (with a photo too!) Openlydialectic (talk) 05:22, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb/RD I agree with the above statement, as a leader of world's largest democracy that too a developing country with a lot of problems, a person is entrusted great burden perhaps more than any other country and a person must be remembered for the same. I ask the administers to take a decisions taking a clear perspective of his legacy. Adithya Pergade (talk) 06:50, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb/RD basis prominence of the subject. Considered one of the best PMs India ever had. --User:WoodElf 07:26, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose blurb. This PM was not a world transformative leader or tip-top in their field like Margaret Thatcher or Nelson Mandela. I'm not certain every US President would necessarily merit a blurb; we didn't have RD for Gerald Ford or he might have been put there. 331dot (talk) 07:46, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
If your argument is that you're citing an established practice, then I am sorry but we just posted a blurb AND a picture of some random American singer nobody's heard about outside of the US (her article before her death was visited on average 2-3 times less often than the article about the Indian PM), so no, I don't think your argument works. On a side note, didn't we post a blurb about Fords' death? Openlydialectic (talk) 08:03, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
RD did not exist at the time of Ford's death, I believe Ford would not get a blurb today(nor every US President). If you were to research her, you would find that the description "some random American singer" is grossly inadequate. But you are entitled to your opinion. 331dot (talk) 08:09, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"we just posted a blurb AND a picture of some random American singer nobody's heard about outside of the US" - would you like it if I opposed this because of "some random former politician who nobody outside India has ever heard of"? Keep the discussion on sources and page views, please. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 08:34, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I would if you cited your arguments for that statement. I cited mine - the importance of her post and the number of views her article had received. Openlydialectic (talk) 08:46, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
*Point of order A person cannot be judged on how popular they were nor were they internationally honored and were praised in history or civics text books but rather on what work they have done, how did their decisions and doings influence the surroundings and the future and being leaders how did they protect the interests of their citizens. Hence I would ask all the debaters to not make baseless statements just to prove their point. When it comes to the subject we are discussing, our statements must be strictly guided on the legacy of the person in question . If anyone does not approve of Aretha Franklin being on the blurb then they must oppose the posting of the blurb on the place so provided [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:In_the_news/Candidates#(Posted_blurb):_Aretha_Franklin ], This is not a platform for anyone to oppose her being on the blurb. Adithya Pergade (talk) 09:44, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above point of order seems to rather miss the point. Nobody is using this item as a platform to oppose a blurb for Franklin. One or more editors is using her blurb as an argument for Vajpayee to be given a blurb, which seems a perfectly legitimate argument to make (regardless of whether one agrees with it or not, or has no opinion on the matter), even if some of the wording used may understandably be seen by some as somewhat injudicious.Tlhslobus (talk) 04:30, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
He was not head of state, the President of India is head of state. 331dot (talk) 08:31, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Don't fret over semantics: the president of India is a ceremonial post. The Prime Minister of India is the person in charge of the country. Openlydialectic (talk) 08:44, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You may call it "semantics" if you wish but the fact remains that this individual was not head of state, but head of government, two very different things. 331dot (talk) 08:47, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@331dot: Prime Minister is de facto head of state in India While President is de jure like Queen & Prime Minister in Great Britain.-- Godric ki Kothritalk to me 10:06, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This isn t the place to argue that point, and it isn't pertinent to this nomination. I was simply correcting the OP. 331dot (talk) 12:22, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Singers and politicians are two different fields. There is no requirement of international ties to be posted here; if there were, very little would be posted. 331dot (talk) 08:59, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
To be clear, I am amenable to supporting an RD (I have no opinion on blurb), but I'm sure as heck not supporting anything that's covered in {{fact}} tags. Fix that first, and I'll revisit it. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 09:10, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Modest Genius: How can you say that he did not have major worldwide influence? Pokhran-II conducted in his prime ministerial reign after which many countries of world imposed ban on India. Also Kargil War happen in his reign.-- Godric ki Kothritalk to me 10:45, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose At least 19 {{Citations needed}} tags and two whole sections tagged with {{Refimprove section}}. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 10:58, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose on quality. It appears the blurb supporters are focusing on the size of India. That's fine; but lets take that to it's natural conclusion - post all Indian PMs, US Presidents, paramount leaders of China. No big problems there. Next comes Indonesia, Brazil...queue the crickets. Leaders of certain countries (G8 comes to mind) will have a greater potential to impact the world, but these positions should make the holders blurb-worthy per se, as this opens us up to clear bias toward the US, UK and India (i.e. the home countries of the bulk of our editors). ghost 11:21, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • On notability grounds, this should be a blurb, especially considering Franklin's position there. Vajpayee was Prime Minister, for several years, of a country of over a billion people. Note that that was one in every six persons on the planet, not to mention India is a significant global player. A huge deal. ITN on the the English Wikipedia tries to avoid bias towards the English-speaking world, and excluding such a person on notability grounds would be terrible. Posting should still be subject to quality assessment though. --LukeSurl t c 11:58, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I knew that was going to happen. Vajpayee was not a pop singer, Franklin was not a prime minister, there is no comparison there, none, none at all. (I opposed a blurb for Franklin, btw). --LaserLegs (talk) 13:23, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • not Thatcher/Mandela

/Franklin* --Openlydialectic (talk) 14:54, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Meaningless I'm afraid. Didn't Debbie Reynolds and Carrie Fisher already have blurbs? And Prince? And Bowie? And ... and ... and ... ? The Rambling Man (talk) 15:02, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This'll happen every time we burb a death, for the next few weeks there will be "Well we did a blurb for X, therefore we must Y and Z". FWIW I don't think Prince, or Fisher, or Bowie or the fast and furious guy should have had blurbs. --LaserLegs (talk) 15:14, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'll say this once and then hush up - we are all concerned about bias. But has it occurred to you that "that other nomination" is also a stand for systemic bias against women, and particularly against black women? Now, if you can clear down the remaining tags, I think having an RD is reasonable. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 16:25, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Do you think its a coincidence that most of the blurb supporters are members of WP:IND or IPs? Bias is about thinking outside of one's own sphere, wherever that is; not just the U.S. The rules say "major transformative world leaders in their field." Ask yourself: who were the most trasformative living statesmen on August 1st? How about singers? It's not even a conversation. ghost 16:29, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@GreatCaesarsGhost: I am not Indian, and have no bias towards India at all. I didn't even know this guy existed before he died. Openlydialectic (talk) 01:41, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Because he sparked a nuclear arms race in the Indian subcontinent and then made peace talks with Pakistan; so he actually made a lasting impression in his field and the impact of his actions was not limited to his country. Also, is it just me or do musicians (English language ones) have a relatively low bar for getting a blurb? 1.39.159.71 (talk) 16:37, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb except for article quality. The so-called "Thatcher/Mandela standard" is way too restrictive; with regards to some of the discussions above, I think every former U.S. President should qualify for a blurb, and so should this prime minister of India. Davey2116 (talk) 18:46, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment – all the energy spent in debating whether or not to post a blurb would be better used ensuring that the article is up to standards... otherwise, it won't even make it to RD and this will all be moot. –FlyingAce✈hello 20:21, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    @FlyingAce: I was actually going to make the identical comment to this one an hour ago! It's quite comical the way they're arguing over which of the two options to use when we can't use post anyway because of the article quality. I've been trying to fix a few of the refs myself...  — Amakuru (talk) 20:43, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Posted to RD - OK, I've fixed all the remaining citation tags in the article, so seems ready to do now and I've already posted it to RD. As for whether it should be blurbed, I'm a little unsure if there's a consensus yet for that so the debate can continue here now. I'm inclined to support it myself, as he was leader of a major nation for quite some time, but then again I can see the "slippery slope" argument if we are to consider deaths for all possible leaders of all G20 countries as blurbworthy.  — Amakuru (talk) 22:16, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Australian prime ministers typically don't get the blurb treatment. Data on other nations in recent years is quite scant - there haven't been that many deaths of longish-term leaders in recent years. The last Indian was ages ago in 2004, pre-RD days, and it did receive a blurb, but in a template with only three items... one of which was the Queen's Christmas broadcast to the UK. Sounds like a slow news day. IK Gujral only got an RD in 2012, but then again he was PM for less than a year so clearly less notable than Vajpayee.  — Amakuru (talk) 22:30, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
We blurbed a German Chancellor who didn't even get a blurb at the de wiki, to my knowledge no POTUS has died since RD was created (and I'd oppose blurbs for Carter, Bush Sr, Clinton and probably Obama). --LaserLegs (talk) 23:16, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb - I'm leaving for the night now, but on reflection I think I support a blurb for this PM. Although not necessarily a household name in the western world, and perhaps less global reach than Thatcher, Mandela (and Carrier Fisher/Arethra Franklin?) I do think he was a very important figure in the world's second most populous country and from a WP:WORLDWIDE point of view we should respect that. If this later leads to a glut of similar nominations in future, then we can always rethink this benchmark. Wikipedia is a work in progress and nothing is set in stone.  — Amakuru (talk) 23:11, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Final Comment (I promise) these ESL articles get the worst grammar, and that's one of the things that keeps them off the main page. "The UPA Government on 1 July 2013 accepted before Supreme Court that National Democratic Alliance Government led by Vajpayee has developed half the roads in last 32 years in their 5-year term." WTF? --LaserLegs (talk) 23:17, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fix it how? I can't grok the intended meaning of that rubbish enough to fix it. I read articles and check refs before I breathlessly impose my POV of "importance" on the project, if that fails some WP:MINIMUMPARTICIPATION then go ahead and wander on over to WP:AN/I and complain about me, which seems to be in vogue anyway. --LaserLegs (talk) 09:05, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb The funeral possession was attended by the heads and representatives from various countries [commentaries running from elsewhere]. The entire Indian political class and the famous were united to offer their condolences and saying their final goodbyes. Tributes pouring in social media was similar to the ones we had seen when Steve Jobs or Former president of India - APJ Abdul Kalam [infact I had nomiated his passing away as a blurb and could see similar opposition commentary running at that time, but was ultimately posted as a blurb then] passed away. The guidelines are quite clear - The event must be notable which had been in this case. Let's not comment on, if his passing away was as noticeable as of Nelson Mandela or Thatcher. He was quite popular in the subcontinent and has contributed significantly to Indian polity. Not every Indian leader will make it to the blurb [IK Gujral in the past]. If we are looking into posting of RD posting in the blurb, we definitely should not consider the "size and scale of India". Not every leader conducts the nuclear tests every day. His death has been covered widely by the foreign media as well. If the article is fixed, we should consider it for blurb now as many oppositions above were based upon on poor references and citations which looks ok now [Not sure, if they are coming back to change their voting status again].

Regards, theTigerKing  02:16, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support blurb. This assumes that the quality is sufficient; I've not looked at the article, so I'm neutral on that side of things. This person was the head of government of one of the largest and most influential countries in the world; by what kind of standard is he less deserving of a blurb than some singer? If any standards (other than article quality) make him unworthy of a blurb, it's time for a serious revision of the standards. Nyttend (talk) 02:46, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb. While it has been argued that the article deserves a blurb simply by virtue of him having been PM of India, please note he was PM during a particularly significant period in modern Indian history. India carried out nuclear tests under his tenure, declaring nuclear capability, fought a major war with Pakistan, came close to another war which could potentially have been nuclear, had a commercial aircraft hijacked by terrorists. President Clinton's visit was the first state visit to India by a US president in 22 years. All of these can be categorized as major international events. In addition, economic reforms accelerated India's GDP growth, paving the way for greater influence in world affairs. There is sufficient rationale for a blurb here. In addition, most of the citation issues have now been resolved, in case that is the primary concern.  Shobhit102 | talk  03:08, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose blurp Not a quality article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Numancia (talk • contribs) 03:51, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb in principle (I leave article quality for others to judge). At least to me, being PM of India for over 6 years seems an adequate reason for a blurb. Some claim he shouldn't get a blurb because he allegedly is not in the Thatcher/Mandela class. I disagree, even if we have to accept the Thatcher/Mandela standard (and I'm not clear why we should have to, nor am I all that clear that such a standard has any objective meaning). Measured by persons ruled multiplied by years ruled, I have every reason to think that he actually affected the lives of far more people than either Thatcher or Mandela (and that's without even asking what presiding over India becoming a nuclear power has done for or against the security of the entire human race). Tlhslobus (talk) 05:11, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb on significance. I'm still working my way through the article, but the event is significant enough to post a blurb. We've posted, among others, Leonard Cohen and Aretha Franklin in the not-too-recent past. Vajpayee was the effective head of state in the world's most populous democracy. More importantly, unlike I. K. Gujral (mentioned above as the only other Indian Prime Minister to have died in recent years) he was more or less re-elected; which is to say he wasn't a consensus candidate from a minor party in a coalition government, but a leader re-elected more or less in his own right in what was then the largest election in human history (no, I'm not going to provide a source; every Indian general election is the largest in human history, thanks to its large and growing population). What's more, he was a founder member and the first president of the Bharatiya Janata Party, and played a large role in its predecessor the Bharatiya Jana Sangh; the BJP is India's ruling party today. All in all, an influence certainly as large, probably far larger, than that of any musician or film star we have recently posted. Vanamonde (talk) 05:50, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb - As per above. Sherenk1 (talk) 06:01, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb, but change picture Full support blurb as the article is very good and had a huge impact on his nation. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 08:57, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb: 3-time Prime Minister of India, was instrumental in making India a nuclear power and prevented a border skirmish from escalating into a nuclear war. Opened up the Indian market and introduced reforms which industralized India. Dignitaries from many, many nations attended his funeral. The article's quality has also been greatly improved. 117.208.198.223 (talk) 09:05, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Blurb posted.  — Amakuru (talk) 09:56, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Given the contentiousness of this nom, a comment explaining your reading of consensus here would be appropriate and appreciated. ghost 12:45, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly oppose blurb not a world-transforming life or death. May have been highly significant figure in his country but barely known outside of India and certainly not a global figure. RD listing sufficient. MurielMary (talk) 09:08, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
How exactly was his life not influential? The argument that a leader is barely known outside his own country can virtually be applied to everyone, even those termed as "globally influential" (and that isn't even the case here). Presiding over the world's largest democracy for three different terms while it became a nuclear power and preventing a conflict that almost escalated into use of nuclear weapons itself is a huge bequest to protecting the security of the world, and that is just one among his countless contributions. A second offering would be his travel to the war's opponent, which worked wonders in easing tensions present in the subcontinent and extended over the continent. This single action itself saved millions of lives, and the world as we know now may not have existed. The fact that Indians account for one person in groups of six would indeed mark his reach as "global", coupled with the high level of popularity he enjoys in areas of Indian influence: Pakistan, Indonesia, along with parts of the rest of the world. WP:WORLDWIDE asks us to respect that. 2402:8100:390C:3B0C:944E:FD7D:480F:41AD (talk) 11:08, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
There are plenty of national leaders who are also globally known e.g. Angela Merkel, Barack Obama, JFK, Margaret Thatcher. This person was a national leader who was not globally known. Being well known to a lot of people, all of whom reside in one part of the world (i.e. the Indian/Pakistani subcontinent) doesn't meet the requirements for a blurb at ITN. MurielMary (talk) 11:22, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
And where has such a policy been written/implemented? I don't find any corroboration as such. You never heard of him, but that doesn't suggest that he was not highly influential in his field. 2402:8100:390C:3B0C:944E:FD7D:480F:41AD (talk) 11:25, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Here: "the death of major transformative world leaders in their field may merit a blurb" from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:In_the_news#Recent_deaths_section He was not a world leader, he was a national leader. Should be posted at RD only, not blurb. MurielMary (talk) 11:30, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As per the Oxford Dictionary, a world leader is "The leader of a large or powerful country; a person who has global political influence." Vajpayee checks both (global political influence isn't global recognition; a ruler of India has visceral political influence globally), as well as a "major transformative" leader, quoted from the Wikipedia mainspace article. 2402:8100:390C:3B0C:944E:FD7D:480F:41AD (talk) 11:56, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose blurb; the bar keeps getting set lower and lower on "blurb deaths" with both Franklin and Vajpayee being very notable figures dying of natural causes in old age. The result is there is precedent creep, citations of "well X got a blurb so should Y". The blurb is not conveying any more information than the RD apart from age of death and occupation. The standards of what is a blurb and what is an RD is notably arbitrary and entirely lacking in global perspective - seemingly one group of dedicated users who earnestly believe the notability of a subject (Fisher, Franklin, etc.) can simply crowd out any dissenting voices. I will say Annan's death is more widely reported globally than both Franklin and Vajpayee. Africa, Asia, U.S. and Europe all reported Annan on front pages. It would be a stretch to find a Japanese or Taiwanese newspaper reporting on Franklin on its front page. Colipon+(Talk) 18:33, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

August 15

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August 15, 2018 (2018-08-15) (Wednesday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Arts and culture

Business and economy

Disasters and accidents

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

Science and technology

(Posted to RD) RD: Rita Borsellino

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Article: Rita Borsellino (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://www.agi.it/cronaca/rita_borsellino_storia-4272285/news/2018-08-16/
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Fully referenced to secondary sources MurielMary (talk) 12:17, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) August 2018 Kabul suicide bombing

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Stale. Stephen 23:59, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: August 2018 Kabul suicide bombing (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ In Afghanistan, 34 students are killed in in the Shia region of Kabul by a suicide bombing of ISIS (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ A suicide bombing

in Kabul, Afghanistan left 48 people dead and 67 others injured.
News source(s): [18]
Credits:

Article updated
Nominator's comments: High number of casualties (67 people),casualties include 34 students Saff V. (talk) 11:21, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) RD: John Shipley Rowlinson

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Article: John Shipley Rowlinson (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: British chemist with significant contribution to science. HaEr48 (talk) 06:08, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) RD: Ajit Wadekar

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Stale, unimproved. Stephen 23:57, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Ajit Wadekar (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): BBC
Credits:

Article needs updating
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Former India Test and One Day International captain Sherenk1 (talk) 03:59, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Removed) Remove from Ongoing: Carr Fire

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Article: Carr Fire (talk · history · tag)
Ongoing item removal (Post)

The most recent prose update from Carr_Fire#August is from 5 days ago; without continuing substantial updates, this should not remain on ongoing. SpencerT•C 02:17, 15 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

FYI, according to CalFire, the Carr Fire is 65 percent contained but still draws 4,000 firefighters. Sca (talk) 13:27, 15 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

August 14

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August 14, 2018 (2018-08-14) (Tuesday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Disasters and accidents

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

(Closed) RD: Morgana King

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Stale. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:48, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Morgana King (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): LA Times, WA Post (original reporting)
Credits:

Article needs updating
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Longtime jazz singer also known for roles in The Godfather. StrikerforceTalk 16:58, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - She actually passed away in March, but it is only now being confirmed publicly. Forgive me if this nomination is gravely in error, given the circumstances, but I didn't see anything in the RD guidelines that specifically covered a situation like this (unless I just completely missed it). StrikerforceTalk 16:59, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Washington Post was the first to report that she had died in March but no one reported it until this week. Just a death that slipped through the radar, it seems. Using the date it was first reported is an acceptable practice as long as we're clear there was no coverage back when she died (which I cannot find). --Masem (t) 17:21, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    That is exactly what the NYTimes says as well including giving credit to WashPo. --- Coffeeandcrumbs
  • Oppose I can't read the source and the article doesn't cover why we didn't discover her demise until some five months later, but in any case, the article needs works on referencing. I think it's a legit nomination by the way, as long as the death hasn't been reported in the interim. Perhaps RD needs a clearer guideline to cover this scenario. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:10, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) Ponte Morandi collapse

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Articles: Autostrada A10 (Italy) (talk · history · tag) and Ponte Morandi (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ The Ponte Morandi, a major bridge near the northern Italian city of Genoa, has collapsed with 'dozens' of casualties reported. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Morandi bridge, a part of the A10 motorway, and about 100 metres tall, collapses and kills tens of motorists.
Alternative blurb II: ​ A portion of the Ponte Morandi motorway bridge near Genoa, Italy collapses, killing at least 22 people.
News source(s): BBC News
Credits:

Nominator's comments: This is a major collapse. Hektor (talk) 10:54, 14 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) Battle of Ghazni

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Articles: Battle of Ghazni (2018) (talk · history · tag) and Ghazni offensive (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ In Afghanistan, hundreds are killed as the Taliban seize most of the strategic city of Ghazni and the surrounding province. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Afghan and NATO-led forces continue to battle the Taliban in the strategic city of Ghazni.
News source(s): NYTimes, CBS, Reuters, BBC, PBS
Credits:

Nominator's comments: This is a major battle and is being reported as such by all accounts. Ghazni is Afghanistan's sixth largest city and nothing on this scale has taken places since the Battle of Kunduz (2016), two years ago. Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 10:54, 14 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment I have adjusted the blurbs. There may be room for more improvement. IMO, calling the city "historic" was not necessary just in this context. I would also suggest finding more sources beside Long War Journal. The reference section lacks variety. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 11:40, 14 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Death and transfer of territory are routine in warfare. Is the casualty rate here especially high, or are we putting weight on the strategic part? If it's the latter, I think we need to meet a very objective standard in applying that value. It tends to raise more questions than provides answers (strategic to whom or to what goal? According to whom? How many cities are so designated?) ghost 12:22, 14 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've updated the article with the latest information today. Yes, the casualty rate here especially high here. No other battle has reached this level in a long time.Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 08:36, 15 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've now migrated everything worth migrating from Battle of Ghazni (2018) to Ghazni offensive. It should be all set.Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 00:06, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

August 13

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August 13, 2018 (2018-08-13) (Monday)
Armed conflicts and attacks
Business and economy
Disasters and accidents
International relations
Politics and elections

(Closed) RD: Jim Neidhart

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Stale. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:48, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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Article: Jim Neidhart (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
 ghost 18:15, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
comment - Calling it a "horrible article", is a bit of a stretch. The article does need some more sourcing, however. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 07:51, 14 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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(Closed) RD: Somnath Chatterjee

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Stale. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:49, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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Article: Somnath Chatterjee (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Times of India
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Noted Parliamentarian elected Ten times and Former Speaker of Lok Sabha Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 05:58, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Vanamonde The article needs some updates.I have added some references. Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 12:50, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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August 12

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August 12, 2018 (2018-08-12) (Sunday)
Disasters and accidents

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

Science and technology

PGA Championship

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Article: 2018 PGA Championship (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ In golf, Brooks Koepka wins the PGA Championship at Bellerive. (Post)
News source(s): NYT [19]
Credits:

The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

 75.188.224.208 (talk) 22:36, 14 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) RD: Samir Amin

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Stale. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:49, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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Article: Samir Amin (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): [20]
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Reknowned Marxist theorist and economist Soman (talk) 20:22, 12 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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(Posted) Parker Solar Probe

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Article: Parker Solar Probe (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ NASA launches Parker Solar Probe which will study the outer corona of the Sun. (Post)
Credits:

Nominator's comments: Launched today. The article needs some updates, but launching new spaceprobes is ITNR. Tone 08:21, 12 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

To clarify, I was not supporting or opposing, only stating that this is not ITNR. 331dot (talk) 16:41, 12 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support This is well written article already. But I will assist with improvements. The first spacecraft to fly into the low solar corona. Unlike most probes this one is headed straight into the sun. The scientific application for the data collected are innumerable. The article is well sourced and very informative. The probe will not reach the first of its several destinations until the end of September. We should post the launch and post arrival to Venus as well on September 28 (ITNR). --- Coffeeandcrumbs 19:39, 12 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - The article is indeed well-written and sourced, and covers a major scientific first, the extremely close-up observation of our sun. Global significance, and ITN-worthy. Jusdafax (talk) 20:13, 12 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Posted Stephen 02:47, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

August 11

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August 11, 2018 (2018-08-11) (Saturday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Disasters and accidents
  • The death toll from heavy floods that triggered landislides in Kerala, India, which started on 8 July, rises to 37. (India.com)

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

(Posted) RD: V. S. Naipaul

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Article: V. S. Naipaul (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): VS Naipaul Nobel prize-winning British author, dies aged 85
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Nobel Prize winning British novelist of Indian extraction. Article would appear to be reasonably referenced but for the bibliography, which probably could be moved to a separate list. We tend to drop the ball on subjects like him. Smerdis of Tlön - killing the human spirit since 2003! 00:46, 12 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I would say probably not. Blurbs are extremely limited. Was he the greatest author in a major genre, or among the top five living authors last week? ghost 12:48, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) 2018 Kerala floods

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Article: 2018 Kerala floods (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ At least 79 people have died and nearly 85,000 people have been displaced due to heavy rainfall in Kerala, India. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ More than 100 people have died in devastating monsoon floods in India's southern state of Kerala, the worst in almost a century.
News source(s): Zee News
Credits:

Article needs updating

Nominator's comments: Article still developing. All five gates of Idduki dam were opened. Sherenk1 (talk) 15:43, 11 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Heavy rain in Wayanad makes big disasters and Ghat road smashed." The grammar in these ESL languages... --LaserLegs (talk) 20:08, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As good as many DYKs loaded for the main page that I see. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:27, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Govt sources is now 390 -- naveenpf (talk) 20:18, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) 2018 Horizon Air Q400 incident

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Consensus against posting. Mjroots (talk) 16:01, 11 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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Article: 2018 Horizon Air Q400 incident (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ A Bombardier Dash 8 aircraft (pictured) is stolen from Seattle–Tacoma International Airport, United States and crashes, killing the pilot. (Post)
News source(s): (BBC News Online)
Credits:
Nominator's comments: Unusual incident, not the run of the mill plane crash. Mjroots (talk) 06:25, 11 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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RD: Bernard Burke

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Article: Bernard F. Burke (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

(Posted) RD: Takeshi Onaga

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Article: Takeshi Onaga (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): [23] [24]
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

 HaEr48 (talk) 06:23, 11 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

August 10

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August 10, 2018 (2018-08-10) (Friday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

(Posted) 2017–2018 Romanian protests

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Article: 2017–2018 Romanian protests (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ In Bucharest, more than 450 people are injured during several days of protests against the Romanian Government. (Post)
News source(s): Associated Press DW BBC Reuters
Credits:

Nominator's comments: One of the biggest protests after 1989 in Romania, with major implications for the country and for the region. On August 10 2018, between 50,000 and 100,000 people (BBC: 50k+, DW: 50k-80k, NYTimes: 100k+) protested in Bucharest against the government. The protests were much more violent than usual, degenerating into fights with the gendarmes, which intervened heavily using tear gas and a water cannon (DW AP). There were also numerous reports and claims of gendarmes beating up non-violent protesters and journalists (Reuters NYTimes Hotnews.ro AP Reuters NYTimes DW). More than 450 people were injured (DW NYTimes AP). Rotruthseeker (talk) 00:38, 12 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose - article currently has an orange maintenance tag about being updated, which has been there for eleven months. An ongoing listing is predicated on frequent quality updates, which do not appear to be the case here. The article has gone months on end without edits while the protests were concurrent. Moreover, with no end in sight, and uncertainty in what would constitute a complete end to the protests, this may rumble on indefinitely, and as such is ill-suited to ITN in my view. Stormy clouds (talk) 14:27, 11 August 2018 (UTC) - I also oppose a blurb, since the nomination has been retooled. Stormy clouds (talk) 20:16, 11 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - also worth noting that this article was posted in [[Wikipedia:In_the_news/Candidates/February_2017#[Posted]_2017_Romanian_protests|February 2017]] when the protests were at their zenith, and there were 500,000+ protesters. They have receded to anywhere from 30,000 to 110,000 now, and had stalled dramatically until yesterday. Stormy clouds (talk) 14:31, 11 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - dear Stormy clouds, thank you very much for looking into this issue! Regarding the ongoing nature of the protests, there I am also not sure how it should be handled with regards to ITN. Regarding the maintananace tag, we mobilized on /r/romania on reddit and started to update the page with new information about the latest protest. Regarding the number of protestors, some sources say 100,000+ (new york times, deutsche welle) other say 30,000-50,000 (bbc). I've posted a quick timelapse video of the protests below to give an idea of the size of the protests. Again, thank you very much for your time and for looking into this issue! :) Rotruthseeker (talk) 14:53, 11 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - BBC has now updated the numbers to over 50,000 people, with more than 400 injured: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45156598 Rotruthseeker (talk) 15:46, 11 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Please also update the lead section. There is too much focus on 2017. We to add some summary of the activity in 2018. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 20:07, 11 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
on it --- Rotruthseeker (talk) 20:11, 11 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've updated the lead section to include a summary of the activity in 2018 and also of the events leading up to it. --- Rotruthseeker (talk) 21:35, 11 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support No more orange tags in the article, and the August 2018 events are ITN-worthy (six digit participation numbers along with 400+ new injuries is certainly a newsworthy new development in this conflict) Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 21:26, 12 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support per BrendonTheWizard. Banedon (talk) 22:05, 12 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support The news is ITN-worthy and the article also looks good. Amirk94391 (talk) 04:47, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per WP:HEY. I have monitored this article and news for severals days and I believe it is ready to post. I was waitng for significant improvements since the page has been dormant for a while and those improvements have been done by me and others. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 16:56, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose if this is supposed to be ongoing, wrong kind of nom. If it's supposed to be a story, it's stale and really quite inconsequential, let's not kid ourselves, "452 injured" actually meant "70 people" going to hospital. That so6unds like a bad day out at the football, not newsworthy. As noted before, this is something that's already been highlighted last year, and this update is minor. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:48, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Dear @The Rambling Man: thank you very much for taking the time to consider the nomination! It was definitely a very bad day, with a scale of violence that I think was unheard of in Romania since the 1990s Mineriads. I've read numerous reports of journalists, foreign correspondents, passersby, tourists and many others being brutally assaulted. When I get back home later today, I'll also link some videos and update the article (with referenced sources of course) to give perhaps a better idea of what happened. Later edit: And of course, I'll also offer references for the claims made in this comment. --- Rotruthseeker (talk) 19:13, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Here are some examples showing how this protest was remarkably violent in comparison to all previous 2017-2018 Romanian protests:
Several RS and YouTube videos showing the violent nature of the incident
- An Austrian cameraman from the Austrian national public broadcaster ORF was beaten up by gendermes. ORF NYTimes Hotnews.ro
- Israeli tourists were dragged out of a taxi and beaten up by riot police. Washington Post NYTimes Digi24.ro with video of the incident
- Hotnews.ro journalist was beaten up by riot police. Hotnews.ro
Videos:
- gendarme attacking man who is holding his hands up and saying he is going home: Youtube
- protester on the ground being beaten up by gendermes: Youtube
- gendarme beating up protester: Youtube
- 2 gendermes get trapped in the protester crowd - some protesters try to protect them, some try to beat them up: Youtube
Additionally, if you have the time, here is a journalist account that shows how the protests degenerated into violence (with English subtitles available):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OF4fu3BS_Vc
There were also notable foreign reactions to the protest:
- Austrian Chancellor Sebastian Kurz: "We strongly condemn the violent confrontations in #Bukarest, at which numerous protesters and journalists were injured. We expect a full explanation [Aufklärung]. We wish a speedy recovery to the injured #ORF cameraman." (own translation) - Twitter
- Amnesty International called for "prompt, thorough, independent and impartial investigations by civilian authorities into the allegations of unnecessary and excessive use of force by the gendarmerie against participants of a protest in Bucharest on 10 August" Amnesty
- Beate Meinl-Reisinger, the head of the Austrian liberal party NEOS asked Hans van Baalen, the president of ALDE in the European Parliament, to remove the Romanian governing party sharing the same name from the European Parliament ALDE group. - Mediafax.ro
--- Rotruthseeker (talk) 22:23, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Dear Rotruthseeker, I get it, but it's not something I think is worthy of the main page of English language Wikipedia. But I do appreciate your efforts in educating me. All the best. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:29, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
TRM, I do not completely disagree with your opinion but I have to take exception to the characterization "English language Wikipedia". I hope you are not saying this is less news-worthy because English is not the native tongue in Romania or that it is of less interest to the English world. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 22:35, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Dear @The Rambling Man: no worries! I'm just trying to bring here all the necessary relevant information, so that people with way more Wikipedia experience than me (I'm still getting the hang of wikipidia-ing, sorry if I make any mistakes) can make the right decision. Best wishes --- Rotruthseeker (talk) 22:37, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Rotruthseeker no, you've made no mistakes at all, and thank you for your efforts! The Rambling Man (talk) 22:40, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) 2018 Fredericton shootings

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No consensus to post. It seems unlikely that this will change. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:09, 11 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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Article: 2018 Fredericton shootings (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ At least four people are killed in a mass shooting in Fredericton, New Brunswick, Canada. (Post)
News source(s): BBC
Credits:
Nominator's comments: Still at micro-stub stage as this is breaking news, but the infrequency of such attacks makes this newsworthy, and it's certainly getting global coverage already. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:46, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
 • I'm not aware of any rationale for assigning wider significance to this shooting solely because it occurred in Canada. In the first day of its presence on the news cycle, no RS reports raised questions of terrorism or other ideologically driven motives. Sca (talk) 21:33, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not aware of any rationale for assigning wider significance to any loss of life solely because of where it occurred, the age of the victims, the profession of the victims... I wish we'd start considering topics as a whole, instead of relying on WP:BODYCOUNT. --LaserLegs (talk) 00:06, 11 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

⇒ Not gonna fly. Suggest close. Sca (talk) 14:00, 11 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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Ongoing: Turkish currency and debt crisis, 2018

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Article: Turkish currency and debt crisis, 2018 (talk · history · tag)
Ongoing item nomination (Post)
News source(s): CNBC
Credits:

Article updated

Nominator's comments: ongoing currency crisis; significant fall in Lira in the last 24 hours. Article was an ongoing item in June when the crisis was not as severe. Chrisclear (talk) 12:30, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment Part of the reason why an article about the Pound would not be considered is that its value against the Euro has remained little changed over the past 12 months, (not sure where you get the "tumble" idea from?) in the middle of an (approx.) 10% range. Whereas the Lira has declined by more than 10% against the US Dollar and the Euro in the last 24 hours. Chrisclear (talk) 13:28, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Support Article is about as current event which is frequently being updated, no issues with referencing. There's enough prose text to balance the timeline of events; though I would like to see some of the highlights of the timeline also added to the prose sections as well. The existence of a timeline in addition to quality prose is not a game-killer for me, WP:PROSELINE is primarily about using a timeline in lieu of real prose, or more to the point of formatting a timeline to give the illusion that it is real prose. --Jayron32 13:32, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – Currency market machinations are unpredictable. If Turkey were to devalue the lira, it might be worth ITN. Sca (talk) 14:31, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
National policy has an effect on currency value through Monetary policy. They can't peg the lira to something, but they can devalue it by using their national bank to play around with the money supply. All national banks do this all the time. --Jayron32 15:02, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Quantitative easing and quantitative tightening can be used adeptly to manipulate the value of a fiat currency. Alter the supply, shift equilibrium and ergo demand, reduce "worth" in the eyes of currency markets. If there is more money in circulation, there is a detrimental effect on value, and vice versa. Stormy clouds (talk) 21:57, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per IAR: All other arguments aside, this has been on the MP long enough. If your economy is in the toilet in June, it's going to be in the toilet in August. It would be decidedly more newsworthy if it suddenly wasn't. ghost 17:16, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Sca - currencies fluctuate all the time. While severe, the fall in the lira isn't unprecedented or particularly worthy of a listing at ITN. If it goes the way of the pengő, perhaps, but not now. Stormy clouds (talk) 21:57, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose seems to me (according to the source in the nom) the actual news item should be "Trump doubles metal tariffs on Turkey". The Lira crashing is just a consequence of Trump's action. I've now seen more than enough coverage of this to switch to support. It genuinely appears like an ongoing issue, and will be ongoing for a while longer. Banedon (talk) 22:18, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Erdoğan did far more damage to the Lira than Rump. --LaserLegs (talk) 00:21, 11 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The source article was just one of many that exist. And as Laserlegs points out, the Lira had its huge declines mainly for other reasons - the tariff decision just made it worse. Chrisclear (talk) 03:43, 11 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support This may be a case of personally selective input, but I can't seem to escape news of the Turkish lira and was surprised it wasn't already included ITN. This is a current event spanning multiple days with multiple interconnected story angles impacting a major developing economy and with transnational consequences (US steel tariffs, American prisoners, Turkish domestic politics, Turkish-NATO relations, etc.) all of which are, more or less, chronicled in the article. Chetsford (talk) 16:46, 11 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support -I too notice this story continues to crop up in the media, lasting significantly longer in the news cycle than other economic news of this type. The impact is global, and I suggest we give this a run as an ongoing item. Jusdafax (talk) 19:24, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment what is the actual impact of a collapse of Turkish currency that we haven't already seen before? The Rambling Man (talk) 22:41, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Hard to say: They're a NATO country and are absorbing the flood of refugees from the ME trying to get to the EU. Worst case? Another "arab spring" situation maybe, if inflation takes hold and unemployment skyrockets. --LaserLegs (talk) 00:33, 14 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) Dahyan bus bombing

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Articles: Dahyan bus bombing (talk · history · tag) and Saudi Arabian-led intervention in Yemen (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ In the Saudi Arabian-led intervention in Yemen, Saudi Armed forces bomb a school bus in Dahyan killing at least 29 children and injuring at least 30 others. (Post)
News source(s): BBC NYT The Guardian
Credits:

Nominator's comments: Happened just about 10+ hours ago. I've just created the article and any help with it would be appreciated, but I strongly think the event would pass the notability guideline, especially since the death numbers are just preliminary. Per Al Jazeera, local Red Cross chief said at least 50 people died. And the 29 dead are all children under 15 years old. Also, this would make Saudi Arabia one of the few countries in the recent memory to score it into the ITN template 2 times in a row! Openlydialectic (talk) 01:27, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

best to let this go. This tangent has played itself out. --Jayron32 18:20, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Do you just not care about the fact that 29 children were killed?--WaltCip (talk) 12:46, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Not especially, not any more so than people of any age killed for cruel and unnecessary reasons. Posting this blurb to ITN wont' bring them back, nor will it prevent future atrocities. --LaserLegs (talk) 14:17, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Hardly surprising the slaughter of 29 kids is being suppressed by US-led news outlets. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:51, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Not being suppressed at all, just way down the page. It's not a secret that the Saudis are targeting civilians in Yemen or that their arms are supplied by the USA. What is the WP:MINIMUMAGE for mass slaughter significance? --LaserLegs (talk) 14:17, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that's called "suppression", pushing bad news stories about one's militaristic allies to a footnote. Bravo! The Rambling Man (talk) 14:19, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Notably "My experience tells me this isn't important to me" is not the same thing as saying that "this is not shown to be significant by coverage in the news". Personal experience and personal interest are not relevant to these discussions, content of source material is. --Jayron32 13:34, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The section is "In the news", I didn't see it "In the news" is all. I'm one voice, out of many. --LaserLegs (talk) 14:17, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Again, it's not what you see. It's what is. There are three, legitimate, bona fide news sources listed above. Just because you hadn't personally seen those sources doesn't mean they don't exist, and you could remedy the problem of your own lack of knowledge by looking at them. --Jayron32 14:26, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, but there are bona fide news sources about everything - even the electric scooter menace in California. I rely on the aggregators Bing and Google to bubble stories up to the top, instead of applying my own bias. Yes, those aggregators are geo-centric, ok, but we have contributors from everywhere. --LaserLegs (talk) 14:30, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Those aggregators are your bias. They feed you stories they think you are interested in based on various analysis of your online presence. That's why they are worthless for assessing the story. The evidence shows that this is a top news story, and that evidence exists outside your personal experience. Small, human interest stories like California Scooters are not covered as top stories in internationally renowned news sources the way this story is. That you refuse to accept evidence because your pre-conceived notions and individual experience doesn't conform to that evidence is the problem here. Just remember that your attitude and behavior makes your contributions to these discussions irrelevant, and admins will treat them as such. I only am carrying on this discussion as a means to inform you of the proper way to do things. I consider you properly educated in such matters, and you should not thus be surprised when your contributions here are ignored repeatedly; which will continue unless and until you get on board with the way things work. --Jayron32 14:59, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I browse "in private" so that I don't get their recommended content based on my habits. All I did here was point out that the article was thin, and that it didn't bubble up in my news feed. Oh well. --LaserLegs (talk) 15:02, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Probably because half the Western alliance participates in the Saudi invasion of Yemen. Openlydialectic (talk) 13:53, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Nope, no mass conspiracy, it's just another grim footnote in a long running unlawful conflict. --LaserLegs (talk) 14:17, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
For what it's worth, the story was the lead story on the UK BBC website when it happened, and it's still on the front page now, some 36 hours later. Black Kite (talk) 14:40, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak support, post-posting – I was reluctant to support a stub, which should be expanded, but that fact that the victims were kids heightens the significance of this crime, even in Yemen. (Please, no more flag salad! That's padding.) – Sca (talk) 14:43, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • PP Support the investigation into the heinous crime has been "initiated" by Saudi and that's front page news. QED. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:46, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes – a commentator on DW News Thurs. cited apparent "ineptitude" on the part of the Saudi military. Sca (talk) 15:04, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, there's ineptitude, then there's Saudi military ineptitude. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:53, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Say whaat? Sca (talk) 21:38, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've been exposed to some of their "abilities" first hand. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:24, 11 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Post-posting support we posted Saudi Arabia's hissy fit response to a Canadian tweet and IMO the murder of nearly 30 children is far more newsworthy. Lepricavark (talk) 15:33, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Post-posting support I'll be honest, if we posted every time Saudi Arabia bombed a hospital in Yemen, a school for blind students in Yemen, or just somewhere filled with innocent Yemeni civilians, every time the Saudi's ally UAE was found to have raped innocent Yemeni women with bayonets, every time the Saudi-US coalition prevented food and medicine from entering the country using their naval blockade while a million civilians starve during a man-made cholera outbreak, that would be all we post to ITN (not saying they're not worthy though, these kinds of outlandish human rights abuses absolutely are and deserve much more attention and I would not !vote against any of them). This one is particularly notable, because it's getting much more media coverage than the rest of them and it's already proved itself to be front page news. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 18:12, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Post-posting support per above. Tragic story, plenty of coverage. Davey2116 (talk) 20:29, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Post-post comment @Jayron32: or any admin: Can you update the blurb: In the [[Saudi Arabian-led intervention in Yemen]], Saudi armed forces execute '''[[Dahyan air strike|an air strike on a school bus in Dahyan]]''' killing at least 50 people, 29 of which were children.
In the Saudi Arabian-led intervention in Yemen, Saudi armed forces execute an air strike on a school bus in Dahyan killing at least 50 people, 29 of which were children.
The page has moved and I want to make it absolutely clear that is was a (despicable) air strike. We should also reflect the preliminary total number of deaths.--- Coffeeandcrumbs 23:58, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I strongly oppose listing the children separately -- ALL deaths are tragic, be it children, women, the elderly, journalists, or successful middle aged white men on their way to pick up a luxury sedan -- ALL people are equal, and all deaths are tragic. Highlighting the child death toll is tabloidesque, and is something ITN has refrained from doing in the past. --LaserLegs (talk) 00:09, 11 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Valid point. However, the current blurb already highlights the children. Not sure what should be done, but I feel like the total number of deaths needs to be included somehow. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 01:23, 11 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

August 9

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August 9, 2018 (2018-08-09) (Thursday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Arts and culture

Disasters and accidents

Law and crime

Politics and elections

(Posted) RD: Tamara Degtyaryova

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Article: Tamara Degtyaryova (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://regnum.ru/news/cultura/2462329.html
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Fully referenced to secondary sources MurielMary (talk) 10:28, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) Working Definition of Antisemitism

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WP:SNOW. --Jayron32 11:32, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Articles: Working Definition of Antisemitism (talk · history · tag) and Antisemitism in the UK Labour Party (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ A major controversy continues in the UK Labour Party over the Working Definition of Antisemitism (Post)
News source(s): 9 August 2018, A month to save Corbyn’s Labour
Credits:

Both articles updated
Nominator's comments: New article on very high profile situation in UK politics. The dispute, which is focused on a highly encyclopaedic subject - the definition of a single word, apparently risks a major split the UK's opposition party in the middle of the Brexit negotiations. Onceinawhile (talk) 05:20, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

August 8

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August 8, 2018 (2018-08-08) (Wednesday)
Arts and culture

Disasters and accidents

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

(Closed) RD: Katie Cannon

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Stale, no consensus. Stephen 01:36, 15 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Katie Cannon (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://pres-outlook.org/2018/08/professor-katie-cannon-first-black-woman-ordained-in-pcusa-dies-at-68/
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Fully referenced to secondary sources MurielMary (talk) 05:55, 11 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Current gap in coverage between 1974 and 2001; what did the subject do during that time? Additionally, given that she is an ethicist/theologian, I would love there to be a section on her views she put forth, or possibly woven into her biography (e.g. "In 1985, Cannon published X, which argued that Y and Z."). SpencerT•C 19:09, 11 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Closed) RD: Richard Sipe

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Stale, no consensus. Stephen 01:35, 15 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Richard Sipe (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): NYT [26]
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Former Catholic priest who studied sex abuse in the church. ghost 12:09, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) RD: Jarrod Lyle

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Article: Jarrod Lyle (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): [27]
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Australian professional golfer, dies of cancer at 36. Article is in rough shape at the moment, I can fix it in about 12 hours if no one else does. Courcelles (talk) 03:04, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Nicholas Bett

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Article: Nicholas Bett (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): BBC
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Kenya's former 400m hurdles world champion. Referencing issues. Article needs to be expanded. Sherenk1 (talk) 09:25, 8 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support - how much expansion do you think it needs, Sherenk1? It looks fully referenced, covers the main points of his life (i.e. long enough to not call it a stub), and the death is covered. Happy to try and address any concerns with lack of coverage.  — Amakuru (talk) 11:13, 8 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Several statements in "Career" are not supported in the refs, another is broken. Int'l competitions is unreferenced. ghost 12:51, 8 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I've fixed the Tilastopaja link, and improved some others. Also expanded on his 2015 success and put a ref for the results in competitions. Think it's good enough to post now.  — Amakuru (talk) 20:32, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support "Career" section seems to be as well cited as needed and "International Competitions" chart is referenced by this, which is also used as a reference within the prose. StrikerforceTalk 14:18, 8 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The broken link is at Tilastopaja.org which appears to be a partner, so this could probably be cleaned up easily. Given this article is pretty bare bones, what's there needs to be verifiable. ghost 14:35, 8 August 2018 (UTC)\[reply]

August 7

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August 7, 2018 (2018-08-07) (Tuesday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Arts and culture

International relations

Law and crime
  • Crime in Germany
    • A German couple is jailed for twelve years each for selling the woman's son to a Spanish pedophile on the dark web, who repeatedly abused him. The couple themselves previously abused the boy and a three-year-old girl, whom they are ordered to pay €42,500 in compensation. The Spaniard is sentenced to ten years. (BBC)

Politics and elections

Arrest of Juan Requesens

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Article: Arrest of Juan Requesens (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Juan Requesens, Venezuelan opposition legislator, is unconstitutionally arrested in Caracas for allegedly financing a supposed assassination attack on the Venezuelan President. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Venezuelan opposition legislator Juan Requesens is arrested after the Caracas drone attack.
News source(s): (BBC)
Credits:

Nominator's comments: controversial event, illegal arrest and likely torture, made BBC front page Kingsif (talk) 00:54, 12 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) Amado Boudou

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Article: Amado Boudou (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Amado Boudou, former vice president of Argentina, is sentenced to almost six years of prison under corruption charges (Post)
News source(s): BBC, The Voice of America, Reuters
Credits:

Article updated

 Cambalachero (talk) 13:17, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • I think this meets significance , and the narrative is compelling. A few small issues: there are specific but different charges noted in reference to an indictment (passive bribery and influence peddling) and arrest (money laundering and racketeering), but not conviction/sentencing. Further, "Boudou is also being investigated" is cited to a 2014 article; probably needs updated? ghost 14:20, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Those are the same charges. He had been arrested before the trial concluded, because it was feared that he may interfere with the investigation. As for the "also being investigated", those are other cases he is also facing, he has been sentenced in just one. Cambalachero (talk) 18:37, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • Support then. I meant not LITERALLY the same charges, like you arrest someone for killing a guy, then charge them with manslaughter. But I'm more than willing to take your word on it. ghost 23:46, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: Notable individual and is in the news. I remember Lula da Silva being in the news as well, so this is an easy support for me.----ZiaLater (talk) 19:27, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: Good article, valuable news. Here's hoping that Maduro trial goes down as well. Kingsif (talk) 00:58, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak support Article is in decent shape and news of this kind is notable, but this is only a vice-president and not a president as in the comparison to Lula above. There might be a history of ITN blurbs for stories regarding vice-presidents though, so take this as a full support if there is. Hrodvarsson (talk) 01:10, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose He's a former vice-president. If it was Cristina I would have supported this, but now... eh... Openlydialectic (talk) 02:17, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Arvonne Fraser

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Article: Arvonne Fraser (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): http://www.startribune.com/arvonne-fraser-blazed-her-own-trail-as-women-s-rights-advocate/490315871/
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Fully referenced MurielMary (talk) 10:18, 8 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Are you referring to this source? http://www2.mnhs.org/library/findaids/00034.xml Although the papers themselves would be considered a primary source, the material referenced is the biographical notes on the biographical overview, which is not primary but secondary (someone has written those biographical notes based on the primary sources). MurielMary (talk) 20:33, 8 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Please clarify your statements. There are 2 citations to books by Fraser, because they are publication records of the books listed in the "publications by Fraser" section". Not sure what you are referring to @GreatCaesarsGhost:? You can tag any citations which you think don't include the information in the text to also clarify, as I don't see any issues in that area. MurielMary (talk) 10:36, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You're right about the biblio (so it's not 5) but the subject's papers are primary sources. A secondary source must involve "analysis, evaluation, interpretation, or synthesis of the facts," not just collation. ghost 12:11, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Refer to my prior comment above regarding this query - that citation is referring not to the collection of papers, but to the biographical notes written by the library. MurielMary (talk) 12:14, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
In addition, the statements with references to the library site also have additional references to other sources. MurielMary (talk) 12:30, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'll withdraw my opposition. ghost 23:43, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Stan Mikita

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Article: Stan Mikita (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Chicago Blackhawks verified Twitter account ESPN
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Member of National Hockey League Hall of Fame StrikerforceTalk 20:42, 7 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) Tensions between Colombia and Venezuela

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consensus unlikely to develop to post at this time --Jayron32 15:15, 8 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Articles: Colombia-Venezuela relations (talk · history · tag) and Caracas drone explosions (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Tensions between Colombia and Venezuela rise amid an alleged assassination attempt on the Venezuelan President and a new incoming Colombian President. Ambassadors are expected to leave the opposing nation. (Post)
News source(s): The Guardian, Diario las Americas
Credits:
Nominator's comments: Honestly, these countries are one wrong word away from all out war, and there have been multiple notable news stories regarding their relations with the other in the last week. They can’t all be listed, but the main two have been summarised in the proposed blurb. Kingsif (talk) 19:50, 7 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Closed) RD: M. Karunanidhi

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Stale. SpencerT•C 18:52, 12 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: M. Karunanidhi (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The News Minute
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: He served as one of the greatest political leaders in India as he never lost a state election during his career. Abishe (talk) 13:58, 7 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

August 6

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August 6, 2018 (2018-08-06) (Monday)
Disasters and accidents

International relations

Politics and elections

Science and technology

(Closed) RD: Paul Laxalt

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Stale. SpencerT•C 04:02, 11 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Paul Laxalt (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): NYT, WaPo, Reuters
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: American politician (former Nevada governor, U.S. senator, and top aide to Reagan) dies at age 96. Article needs some more sources. Davey2116 (talk) 02:13, 8 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Closed) RD: Joël Robuchon

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Stale. SpencerT•C 04:02, 11 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Joël Robuchon (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): BBC
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Top chef. Article is tragically bad. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:09, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

August 5

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August 5, 2018 (2018-08-05) (Sunday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Disasters and accidents

International relations

Law and crime

Sports

(Posted) Saudi-Canadian diplomatic row

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Article: Canada–Saudi_Arabia_relations#August_2018_diplomatic_dispute (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Saudi Arabia expels Canadian ambassador over criticism of rights activists' arrests. (Post)
News source(s): WSJ WaPo NYT BBC CNN DW AJ
Credits:

Article updated

Nominator's comments: Sufficient update to an existing article and more than adequate media coverage. 39.57.237.162 (talk) 06:05, 7 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support While at the first glance I was going to vote oppose due to the lack of importance - I mean diplomatic dispute is a bad thing, but it may as well just not lead to any concrete events unlike say laying a claim to another country (like Saudis did with Qatar) or invading another coutnry (Yemen). However, I do think it's a verry surprising event - Saudis starting a row with a Western nation - so much so that this surprisingnes can very well make the event notable and important enough to post on the ITN. tldr: I think there's notability for the sheer unexpectedness of the unfolding events. I mean, come on, whats next? Are they going to bomb Greece tomorrow too? Openlydialectic (talk) 10:21, 7 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Why do you consider it "verry surprising"? Saudi Arabia has used "expel the ambassador" as a routine tactic for sending a signal of its displeasure with its allies' actions for literally decades, (including expelling the ambassador of the UK, a country with considerably closer economic and political ties than Canada, to express the government's dislike of a British TV programme), while the presence or absence of an ambassador doesn't mean diplomatic ties have been cut (the US hasn't even had an ambassador to Saudi Arabia since Trump took office). ‑ Iridescent 10:35, 7 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
In all fairness, though your example backs your statement that the practice of expelling ambassadors has occurred for decades, it really was decades ago and, for obvious reasons, we couldn't post stories ITN in 1980. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 17:50, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I would just like to note for the record that Greece has, in fact, not been bombed as of this comment.--WaltCip (talk) 15:54, 8 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Not since 1941, anyway. Sca (talk) 21:48, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Moral support - Good faith nom. Still, it's unlikely that this will be posted to ITN simply because of its sadly tiny scope. In the end, this is just political posturing that will amount to nothing.--WaltCip (talk) 11:27, 7 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment – Seems the target article should be listed as Canada–Saudi Arabia relations. Also, the URL to the 'dispute' section of said article doesn't belong in a blurb. That said, if the two nations were to break diplomatic relations entirely, that would be worth posting. Sca (talk) 15:25, 7 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose. Although an ambassador has been expelled, the countries have not cut off diplomatic relations and the impact seems to be fairly minor. The BBC report makes it clear the ban is on 'new trade', not existing business, and only two international flights have been suspended. Another major concern is that the bolded article now has major WP:UNDUE focus on this particular incident, with barely anything about relations in general or other historical incidents. Modest Genius talk 17:39, 7 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, if they go to war then I might consider a support. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:25, 7 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Might!? Consider!? Is Poe in effect here? Oppose, like the other not-yet-a-war conflict. ghost 16:48, 8 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, Ousting of diplomats, at least to me, doesn't poses enough significance to be posted to ITN. Amirk94391 (talk) 09:16, 8 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support This has already escalated to far more than just expelling diplomats. Saudi Arabia expelled all Canadian diplomats, ordered all Saudi scholarship students in Canada to go to other countries, immediately suspended all flights to and from Canada, suspended their new trade agreement, repatriated all Saudi hospital patients in Canada, in response to Canada requesting that Saudi Arabia free the jailed womens rights activists.source: businessinsider An unusually quickly escalating feud between two major G20 nations with rash methods from the Saudi government; we've posted stories far less consequential. (even the boat race and the snooker championship were considered worthy enough, and in all fairness these stories were relevant to roughly negative six people combined) Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 17:51, 8 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    !!!!!!BOAT RACE KLAXON!!!!!!! In all fairness, it was making some sense until the last sentence spoilt it all. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:09, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Don't be silly; if you disagree with my assessment that the boat race wasn't as consequential or newsworthy as this, that alone doesn't somehow detract from how Saudi Arabia has in fact escalated this to much more than just the expulsion of diplomats. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 17:47, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry, did you just tell me not to be silly? You need to focus on your own thoughts and expressions, not mine. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:22, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Just for the record, most of BrendonTheWizard's post above is completely fabricated. KSA has expelled one Canadian diplomat (not "all Canadian diplomats"—the embassy remains open and all consular services are functioning as normal), suspended new investment (existing investment and trade agreements are continuing unaffected), suggested that Saudi students in Canada may lose government funding (not "ordered all Saudi scholarship students in Canada to go to other countries"), and a single airline has announced that from 13 August it will end direct flights between Riyadh and Toronto (as it's part of SkyTeam, you can still book a Saudia ticket from Riyadh to Toronto just fine; it just means a stopover in Paris, Schipol, JFK or Dulles). ‑ Iridescent 2 21:49, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    If in fact these statements are completely fabricated, you may want to modify the text of Canada-Saudi Arabia relations. Please also note that I did in fact state that they suspended new investment in my original post, so to suggest that was a "complete fabrication" would mean you misread my original post. Consider these excerpts from the Wiki article: "It was announced on 8 August by Saudi Arabia that it would put a halt to its medical programs in Canada and shift all Saudi patients receiving care in Canadian hospitals to hospitals in other countries." ... "It was reported that on 8 August, Saudi Arabia began the process of selling all of its Canadian assets to foreign investors. In August 2018, Saudia also stopped flights to Canada." A direct quote from the article cited states: "Saudi Arabia has restricted travel, medical access, and student scholarships to Canada while using its state-owned media to depict the country as unjust." Even had the entirety of my original post been botched, what actually happened is unchanged and it remains more notable internationally than most of what we've posted lately. And yes, I do think it is a rather silly thing to say that one sentence "spoilt it all" after agreeing that the rest of it "made some sense." Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 22:16, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Not at all. You spoilt what was a reasonable post with some silly trash at the end. If you want to convince people of your position in future, best to avoid repeating such excursions. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:06, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I'd say that no reasonable person would agree that an admittedly reasonable statement is overridden by one parenthetical comment somehow rendering all rationale void, but that's fine if you think that as there's no need to continue this digression from the original discussion any further than we already have. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 18:17, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - As BrendonTheWizard. Sherenk1 (talk) 10:46, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support this is becoming a much bigger story as Saudi Arabia continues its irrational escalation. Lepricavark (talk) 21:11, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - There’s been a surge of developments in the past 48 hours, and the news coverage continues. Not your average diplomatic spat. Jusdafax (talk) 22:09, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Posted Stephen 23:46, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) RD: Tom Heckert Jr.

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Stale. SpencerT•C 04:01, 11 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Tom Heckert Jr. (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Denver Post, USA Today
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: NFL GM and personnel manager for several teams. Article is not quite up to sourcing spec for posting right now. Masem (t) 18:38, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Closed) RD: Charlotte Rae

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Stale. SpencerT•C 04:01, 11 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Charlotte Rae (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Deadline
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: American actress, most notable for her role in The Facts of Life. Unfortunately, like most B-list tv actors, sourcing is woefully poor on this. Masem (t) 03:27, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) RD: Alan Rabinowitz

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Article: Alan Rabinowitz (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Panthera Conjour
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Notable environmentalist in the field of wildlife conservation. Established many of the world's first wildlife reserves, discovered new species and subspecies, and pioneered of the concept of Paseo del Jaguar (genetic jaguar corridor). AlexR 9:26, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

(Posted) August 2018 Lombok earthquake

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Article: August 2018 Lombok earthquake (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ A 6.9 magnitude earthquake strikes Lombok, Indonesia, killing at least 19 32 82 people. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ A 6.9 magnitude earthquake strikes Lombok, Indonesia, killing at least 98 people after its 6.4 magnitude foreshock killed at least 20 a week prior.
News source(s): The Straits Times; Reuters; BBC
Credits:

Article updated

Nominator's comments: Worse than the previous one; a tsunami warning was issued. Angga1061 17:17, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

  • Suggestion: Is it possible if we merge the article above with 2018 Lombok earthquake? –Angga1061 17:25, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
I just found out–– Can we merge them with July 2018 Lombok earthquake? –Angga1061 17:33, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
A scan of the articles on this quake all suggest it is a related quake from last weeks (then they were already warning of powerful aftershocks). These should be treated as one "quake" system so the articles should be merged, and the blurb updated. --Masem (t) 18:06, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose posting as a separate story. The two should be merged into one article (2018 Lombok earthquakes?). An updated blurb should be sufficient. Mjroots (talk)
  • Comment the Indonesian Geophysics body described it as the "main shock of the series" so it's probably a good idea to merge. However, I've no idea how this would work. In addition, the two topics are sufficiently distant from each other in coverage that a double-link entry might work better. Juxlos (talk) 23:10, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Alt blurb – we don't need two of pretty much the same story.  Nixinova  T  C  01:13, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support alternative blurb. Also the word "at least" should be added before "20". Hddty. (talk) 01:23, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. We use the magnitude from USGC? The Indonesian authorities (BMKG) claim that the magnitude is 7.0. Hddty. (talk) 01:29, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I actually wrote 7.0 in the blurb, but then another editor edited it. –Angga1061 04:27, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
Note that in July earthquake both USCG and BMKG reported the same number. Hddty. (talk) 06:52, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Add BMKG to the July earthquake article and I am 100% behind you. I have no reason to believe one is more reliable than the other.--- Coffeeandcrumbs 09:15, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Does it really matter? Besides the BMKG seems to be reporting in Richter instead of Mw  which would explain the difference. Juxlos (talk) 09:45, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, BMKG uses the Richter scale. –Angga1061 10:00, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
If we are listing these in the same sentence/blurb, it only matters that we use the same scale in reporting the number. The blurb as written seems fine to me.--- Coffeeandcrumbs 10:10, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Ok then. I just can't distinguish the scales. Hddty. (talk) 11:34, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Barry Chuckle

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Article: Chuckle Brothers (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): BBC
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: One half of one of a very popular British children's entertainment duo. The article is well sourced and balanced  The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 08:17, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

August 4

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August 4, 2018 (2018-08-04) (Saturday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Disasters and accidents

Health and environment

International relations

Politics and elections

Sports
  • Oakland Raiders cornerback Daryl Worley is sentenced to three days in jail and two years of probation in June after pleading guilty to firearms and resisting arrest charges stemming from an incident in April. (NFL) (ABC News)

(Closed) Alleged attempted assassination of Nicolás Maduro

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No consensus to post. Stephen 22:54, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

 
Articles: Alleged attempted assassination of Nicolás Maduro (talk · history · tag) and Crisis in Venezuela (2012-present) (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ An apparent assassination attempt is staged on Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro (pictured) during a speech in Caracas; Maduro blames the attack on neighbouring Colombia, as well as anti-Venezuela forces in Florida. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ There is an apparent assassination attempt on Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro (pictured), which he blames on politicians and Venezuelan emigrants in Colombia and Florida.
Alternative blurb II: ​ Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro survives an assassination attempt in Caracas.
Alternative blurb III: ​ Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro (pictured) survives an apparent assassination attempt in Caracas. The attack is claimed by extremist group Soldados de Franelas.
Alternative blurb IV: ​ Eight people are injured in explosions in Caracas, Venezuela during a speech given by Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro (pictured).
News source(s): BBC, The Guardian
Credits:

Article updated
Nominator's comments: (later added comment) Apparent attempted assassination of world leader, during turbulent times in his nation and following recent reelection; the leader making unfounded claims of his attackers also makes it a highly notable event in international and political climates and the Latin American relations. Kingsif (talk) 11:42, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
If it's a staged attempt. the article should reflect as much. --LaserLegs (talk) 12:45, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, but change blurb in light of the circumstances and neutrality. I suggest that the blurb explains the explosion during the speech and that there are, if I'm not mistaken, at least seven wounded. --Jamez42 (talk) 13:38, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – The murky origin of this incident, and the fact that Maduro was not injured and there were no casualties, make it unsuitable for ITN at this time. Sca (talk) 14:10, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
PS: The AP notes, "As is often the case in Venezuela, accounts of exactly what happened remained murky." Sca (talk) 21:06, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Notable story, I'm seeing lots of coverage of this. The articles are pretty good. Davey2116 (talk) 17:11, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The story is based on unverified claimed by the Maduro government which is not a reliable source, quite the opposite. The BBC story linked in the nomination says that according to the firefighters at the scene, it was actually a gas tank explosion in a nearby apartment building. Was there really an assassination attempt? What, if anything, actually happened? At the moment it is very unclear, and there is no reliable information. Nsk92 (talk) 17:18, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per WP:V. Nsk92 is right. The Maduro government is claiming it was an assassination attempt, but firefighters said it was a gas explosion. Wikipedia is WP:NOT the propaganda outlet of dictators or strongmen. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:22, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fascinating, taking a look at WP:NOT it says "An article can report objectively about such things, as long as an attempt is made to describe the topic from a neutral point of view.". You might want to have a gander at WP:NPOV and WP:VT - as of this morning WP:RS was calling it an assassination attempt, like it or not, the item is "in the news". I'll tell you what WP:ITN is WP:NOT, a WP:SOAPBOX for you to complain about the Venezuelan president. --LaserLegs (talk) 17:49, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Even if this was a real assassination attempt, it didn't get close to succeeding. Reliable sources are now questioning whether it was a genuine attempt, staged by the government, or even an unrelated gas explosion. We should avoid posting on ITN on both grounds. If he had been injured I might have supported. Modest Genius talk 17:30, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose. I would tend to agree that there is too much uncertainty around this, and I don't think that's likely to change soon. 331dot (talk) 18:39, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose If this were 100% confirmed as an assassination attempt against a sitting world leader, that's post-worthy. But the dubious claim this is one, and that he wasn't injured, leaves this as a non-story. --Masem (t) 19:49, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Blurb 4 proposed to focus more on the explosion. Should replace the image with one of the street? Kingsif (talk) 20:29, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support so what if it's uncertain? Post now and update the blurb as things become clearer. If this winds up not being an assassination attempt, that's still okay, since 1) it'll still have been covered in news and 2) investigators will have spent time to reach that conclusion. Banedon (talk) 22:55, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Bandeon: You really don't see a problem with publishing a blurb that (a) may not be true, and (b) if false, can only be called propaganda from a dictator? – Muboshgu (talk) 23:01, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Muboshgu: See blurb 4, nothing in this version is untrue or debatable. An explosion happened, Maduro said it was assassination, seven soldiers were injured. Kingsif (talk) 23:23, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Blurb 4 is clearly the only one of the above that could be postable. – Muboshgu (talk) 14:41, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Muboshgu: If the US had invaded Iraq today as opposed to in 2003, would you support a blurb? Look at the parallels: they go to war over alleged WMDs which "may not be true", and if false, can only be called propaganda. The action taken is the most important aspect here. Not posting because the alleged intended victim is a dictator is also borderline editorializing and / or RGW. Banedon (talk) 03:29, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Bandeon: Nice strawman argument. Nobody is questioning that the U.S. has invaded Iraq. This explosion leaves lots of unanswered questions. – Muboshgu (talk) 14:40, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak weak support Ugh. There is a laundry list of "alleged" assassination attempts against Maduro, but this one is different since it was quite the spectacle. However, I do not support any blurb suggesting it was an assassination attempt and suggest the blurb "Drones detonate during an open-air speech by Venezuelan president Nicolás Maduro" (or something similar). If the blurb incorporates the assassination wording, then my support is withdrawn.----ZiaLater (talk) 04:06, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Oppose: I do not see this article or its phrasing being saved any time soon while this is still news.----ZiaLater (talk) 15:15, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: I think a slight understanding of the context (Venezuelan politics) would evoke reasonable suspicion. I would only support after more details emerge on whether or not this was an genuine attempt. Alex Shih (talk) 07:25, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Absolute weakest of supports - If we're going to post this, at the very least we need to use alt blurb V, which removes any pretenses of potential propaganda.--WaltCip (talk) 10:43, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Can't link an article with a "factual accuracy disputed" tag to the Main Page.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:37, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t know why the tag is there, since factual accuracy isn’t disputed, it’s probably because news is still appearing. It’s redundant with the current event tag, but since there hasn’t been discussion it hasn’t been removed. Unless it’s a tag that doesn’t need discussion to remove... after a check, it just requires citations - will remove the unnecessary tag. Kingsif (talk) 13:41, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I'm not comfortable taking the word of a man like Maduro. There is too great a possibility that this was a staged event, and I think we should err on the side of not giving them the attention they were seeking if this was indeed staged. Lepricavark (talk) 14:35, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Nsk92 and Muboshgu. The source for almost all of what is being reported comes back to a dictatorial government that is clearly not a reliable source for the time of day much less these kinds of claims. The unhappy truth is that we don't know what happened, and it could stay that way for a while. If/when that changes, I may be open to reconsidering this nomination. But right now, in the absence of a clear picture of what exactly went down, I think we need to err on the side of restraint and caution. Especially given that the claims be trumpeted (pun intended) by El Jefe may be used as a pretext for arresting political opponents. -Ad Orientem (talk) 15:28, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • (edit conflict)Oppose: Routine government propaganda, zero casualty, sketchy details. –Ammarpad (talk) 15:50, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Re-opened Just today, reliable sources are STILL calling it an assassination attempt [28] [29] [30] and the only source I see calling it a "pretext" is John Bolton who lost all his credibility searching Iraq for "nookular bombs". The story didn't go away, and if we're going to accept the twitter reports of street protestors in Bangladesh as accurate, we're going to have to accept the Venezuelan governments - as reported by WP:RS - whether you like that government or not. --LaserLegs (talk) 22:41, 7 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Please close. Article has not changed significantly and neither has the suspicion surrounding the whole incident.----ZiaLater (talk) 04:46, 8 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I have to disagree with closing. The Bolivarian Intelligence Service is currently carrying out raids in Caracas, congressman Juan Requesen was detained along with his sister, the president of the student center of the Central University of Venezuela, and Julio Borges' parliamentary immunity was removed, accuding him of being related with the incident. This is still ongoing, if it is to be closed it should be due to lack of consensus. --Jamez42 (talk) 12:51, 8 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: This is not the first time that the Maduro regime tries this stunt. Cambalachero (talk) 19:08, 8 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Needs attention The article is now titled "Caracas drone explosions" and indicates "Video footage shows two drones: amateur video of one drone exploding, the video showing few people in the area, and another video recorded by Telemundo cameraman Cesar Saavedra of a drone hitting the Don Eduardo apartment building." so we can ignore all the "Oppose - Maduro is a liar, it was a gas leak" above and re-evaluate consensus. --LaserLegs (talk) 00:48, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I'm re-iterating my support in light of this new information. Davey2116 (talk) 01:29, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: Still have to oppose on this one. I have a feeling that there is a push to name this an "assassination attempt" when it is still debated.----ZiaLater (talk) 18:07, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Pinging previously invovled users: @Sca: @Nsk92: @Muboshgu: @Modest Genius: @331dot: @Masem: @Banedon: @Alex Shih: @WaltCip: @Pawnkingthree: @Lepricavark: @Ad Orientem: @Ammarpad:----ZiaLater (talk) 18:18, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) 2018 Ju-Air Junkers Ju 52 crash

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Article: 2018 Ju-Air Junkers Ju 52 crash (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ All 20 people on board are killed when a Junkers Ju 52 aircraft (pictured) crashes in Switzerland. (Post)
News source(s): Aviation Herald
Credits:

Article updated

Nominator's comments: At time of posting, 20 deaths not confirmed, but highly likely. Crash of historic WWII airliner. Mjroots (talk) 06:40, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

PS: it's on German Wiki's ITN, piped to a 400-word article. – Sca (talk) 14:18, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Then wouldn't it be great if you, as a German speaker, could translate some of it which isn't already covered in the English article, and include it? The Rambling Man (talk) 14:25, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Also, it looks like there's an image of the crash site which could be added. Looks good to me, but could use more eyes on it. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:27, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Added a few bits from German WP; others have updated as well. The hot weather (less dense air) seems to have been a factor. Article now 300 words. Sca (talk) 15:18, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Built in 1939 – by which time it had already been made obsolete by the DC-3. Sca (talk) 00:54, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Are we really saying that an aircraft crashing with 20 deaths is under the bar for notability? Mjroots (talk) 05:01, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I see no harm in posting but this seems to have little consequence on the world stage. However unfortunate the number of deaths may be, when viewed in light of the other items nominated on this page (especially the one right below this), this story pales in comparison. IMNHO. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 07:31, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The event in the story nominated below this one had twenty fewer deaths, i.e. zero. Mjroots (talk) 07:53, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
So what? What is more news worthy: an old plane crashes or a national government is actively suppressing news (including beatings of Associated Press reporters) about a legitimate protest that could erupt into national civil action? --- Coffeeandcrumbs 08:34, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Some perspective. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 08:40, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It depends on your perspective. That's why we follow consensus. If people want to add a "must have a consequence on the world stage" criterion, that's a separate discussions. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:41, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No need for a change in policy. I see no harm in posting which is why I have abstained from !voting. I just don't like indignation when people don't jump at the opportunity to post a story about something that is of little consequence.--- Coffeeandcrumbs 08:55, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
In your perspective, of course. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:56, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Like I like to say, in my not humble opinion.--- Coffeeandcrumbs 09:08, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I'm saying 20 people dying in a private plane crash is under the bar for notability there are no WP:MINIMUMDEATHS, WP:AIRCRASH applies here this was not a commercial flight and there will be no changes to the type, no air worthiness directive, because it's 80 years old. The blurb needs to mention the age of the aircraft, that's the only thing notable here. Five people died when a private plan crashed in a mall parking lot in California yesterday should I create a barely-stub article and nominate it so you can all shoot it down as not enough deaths? Come on. --LaserLegs (talk) 08:50, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see an WP:AFD tag on the article, so it's just fine. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:54, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
WP:AIRCRASH does not apply to stand-alone articles. Mjroots (talk) 13:44, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
In journalism, reader interest is a composite of many factors, not just significance or consequences. One of them is oddity, unusualness, rarity, etc. When was the last time you heard of an 80-year-old, 'historic' plane dropping out the sky "like a stone" and killing 20 people? Sca (talk) 14:51, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
PS: Note that about 50,000 readers viewed the Junkers Ju 52 page on Aug. 5. Sca (talk) 15:04, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) 2018 Bangladesh road safety protests

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Article: 2018 Bangladesh road safety protests (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Over 100 people are injured in road safety protests in Bangladesh. (Post)
News source(s): BBC
Credits:

Nominator's comments: Violent and widespread protests; over 100 students reportedly injured and mobile internet shut down (in a country of population 160 million+). Article is well-sourced. EternalNomad (talk) 21:04, 4 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support came here to post this. Very major news, from the videos I've seen the fatalities are at least in dozens if not hundreds protesters. Though the article is in significant need of attention right now. It's fine and doesn't have any of the regular problems so it can be posted right now, but with more info coming in the upcoming hours it would be great if some of us could focus our attention on it. Openlydialectic (talk) 21:28, 4 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Please use {{Dubious}} or {{More citations needed}} or similar and I will gladly check for you. But neutrality does not mean fair and balanced. The article including the statement you quoted is sourced from legitimate and reliable media sources. I have toned it down by removing language like "peaceful" but the facts are verifiable.--- Coffeeandcrumbs 20:55, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. WP:NPOV ...a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias" I think is the definition of "fair and balanced". There was a collective losing of the minds over the Venezuela thing, but this article reads like a pro-protester propaganda piece. I think any time a WP:RS is simply reporting something from "social media", I'm going to tag it dubious - I mean, if that's ok we may as well just use twitter is a WP:RS. --LaserLegs (talk) 21:47, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes but don't forget the end of the policy sentence you quote: "...all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." What you percieved as editorial bias is not bias at all. It is a fair reflection of the source material. There is no pro-protester propaganda by editors. There is a pro-protester stance in the reliable sources in light of a clear crackdown by the government as pointed out by Amnesty International and PEN International.--- Coffeeandcrumbs 23:57, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

August 3

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August 3, 2018 (2018-08-03) (Friday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Disasters and accidents

Health and environment

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

Science and technology

(Posted) RD: Ingrid Espelid Hovig

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Article: Ingrid Espelid Hovig (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://www.nrk.no/norge/ingrid-espelid-hovig-er-dod-1.14151500
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Fully referenced. MurielMary (talk) 07:08, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

August 2

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August 2, 2018 (2018-08-02) (Thursday)
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Arts and culture

Business and economy

Disasters and accidents

International Relations

Politics and elections

Science and technology

(Closed) Apple is worth over $1 trillion

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No consensus to post. SpencerT•C 03:27, 4 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Apple Inc. (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Apple Inc. becomes the first public company to be worth US$1 trillion. (Post)
Alternative blurb II: ​ Apple Inc. becomes the second publicly listed company to be worth US$1 trillion.
News source(s): (BBC) (Marketwatch)
Credits:
Nominator's comments: Milestone.  Nixinova  T  C  20:03, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose It's an arbitrary number and it was only above $1T for a few hours (since its value is highly dependent on the stock market). --Masem (t) 20:04, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Masem. -Ad Orientem (talk) 20:09, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment no less arbitrary than goals kicked or centuries batted, it's just another record, and my goodness is it ever "in the news". One liner update is no good, and that article is a wall of text, with 500+ refs there is no way I'm going to actually read that mess and check any questionable content. This is, however, "in the news" - no doubt about that. --LaserLegs (talk) 20:29, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - the claim that it's the first to hit $1 trillion is also not certain. PetroChina achieved a similar valuation in the midst of a bubble in 2007.[31]  — Amakuru (talk) 20:54, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – It's a number. It doesn't change anything. Sca (talk) 21:00, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support even if it's arbitrary, $1T is a nice round number that is a natural threshold. PetroChina doesn't count since it's majority government-held. That it is temporary should not matter, since it's still a record. In the same way if someone runs the 100m in 9.50s, it's a "temporary record" since tomorrow he might not be able to run at that same speed again, but it's still a record. Banedon (talk) 23:49, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Sure it's arbitrary, but the Facebook record below wasn't arbitrary and we didn't post that. In my view, both are notable records. Davey2116 (talk) 00:27, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The high market capitalization is no more remarkable than $999 billion or $1.001 trillion, it's just a round number. Furthermore, it's the second time a company has "achieved" this milestone, after Petrochina "achieved" a market cap of $1 trillion in 2007. I don't see how Petrochina's partial government ownership invalidates this. Whatever excuses people come up with, Apple will always be the second public company to "achieve" a one trillion dollar market cap. Chrisclear (talk) 01:01, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Petrochina's main asset is oil, which is strictly speaking owned by the country and not Petrochina. So Petrochina being worth $1T is misleading. Here's an analogy: suppose we wind back the clock to 1800. You are the government of China, and you've just discovered this asset called "oil" that's very valuable. The oil is owned by your country because it's located within your borders, the same way Mt. Everest is "owned" by Nepal. You form a new state-run company to sell that oil. Your country owns 100% of that company's shares. You decide to sell 1% of those shares to the public. How valuable is your company? To say that Petrochina really is worth $1T is like saying that China as a country is worth $1T - not sensible. Banedon (talk) 04:33, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As I said above, people can come up with all the excuses they like, the fact remains that Petrochina was the first publicly-listed company to "achieve" this pointless "milestone". Chrisclear (talk) 04:41, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Someday, someone will say Microsoft is the first trillion-dollar company because its peak inflation-adjusted market capitalization in 1999 was 27.27 trillion Taiwanese dollars, and everyone else who denies this is coming up with "excuses". Banedon (talk) 04:49, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
With near certainty, you are now being deliberately obtuse. First of all, as you are aware, the "milestone" we are discussing is US Dollars, not Taiwanese dollars. Second, the "milestone" we are discussing is market capitalization not adjusted for inflation. Third, even if Microsoft's 1999 market capitalization is revised upward to account for inflation, in 1999 it was not close to a trillion 2018 US Dollars. Chrisclear (talk) 05:51, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Closed) Catholic Church and capital punishment

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No consensus to post. Stephen 23:17, 8 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Catholic Church and capital punishment (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Pope Francis and the Catechism of the Catholic Church declare that the death penalty is inadmissible in all cases, and that the Catholic Church would push for the practice being abolished worldwide. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Pope Francis changes the Catholic teaching on capital punishment, declaring it inadmissible in any circumstances and calling for its abolition.
News source(s): NY Times, Al Jazeera, BBC, The Atlantic, NPR, Guardian.
Credits:
Nominator's comments: Major doctrinal clarification in the Roman Catholic church. IcierJacks (talk) 19:37, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support the alt blurb per nom comment. Article is in decent shape. StrikerforceTalk 19:42, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Just a statement, but no actual plan to be implemented or the like. --Masem (t) 19:46, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • How would a religious organization implement a ban on the death penalty? By that logic, Vatican II was not notable. IcierJacks (talk) 21:07, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • If the Pope announced they were going to organize numerous meetings with the leaders of countries that include a large number of Catholic followers to try to convince them to change the country's stance on capital punishment, that might be something. All this is is saying that from yesterday on, the Catholic Church will teach capital punishment is not approved by the church, which is far less of a proactive action. --Masem (t) 13:54, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - I don't think that a doctrinal clarification by the Pope is particularly of lasting impact, or worthy of an ITN listing, especially in this case. Perhaps it is my ignorance as an atheist, but I didn't think that capital punishment respected the sanctity of life in the eyes of the church. Unless legislation changes in a major fashion due to this declaration (say, for instance, the death penalty is abolished in the US), I view this as nothing more than a religious figure reaffirming something their congregation likely already knew. It is also of no discernible impact for those people who don't believe in the Immaculate conception - as such, I don't see this as a suitable blurb for ITN. Stormy clouds (talk) 19:48, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
So religious news is excommunicated from ITN? And for the record, until today, the Catholic Church did not consider the death penalty as contrary to the moral law. -Ad Orientem (talk) 20:00, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Of course not - we'd obviously post things like a new Pope - but a declaration of a body without any legislative authority is basically a non-story, nothing immediate will come from it. (its like when the Doomsday clock is updated, same type of thing). --Masem (t) 20:04, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Ad Orientem: - ^ I agree with what Masem has said here, for the record. In relation to the church's position on the death penalty, while not explicit, it could be very reasonably inferred from actions, doctrine, and scripture that they weren't fans - today just affirms it, and I don't see the impact this haves beyond the pulpit. While undoubtedly considerable, it doesn't reach a threshold of importance for me. Stormy clouds (talk) 21:50, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This will not ban the death penalty in the US. For one Protestants outnumber Catholics by about 2:1. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 20:28, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Sagittarian Milky Way: - that is my point (tangentially). Minimal lasting impact. Just used the US as an example. Apologies for confusion caused. Stormy clouds (talk) 21:50, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support alt blurb. This is huge news and represents the final shift, that has been coming by inches since the 1960's, in Roman Catholic teaching on the subject. It places the world's largest Christian church (over 1 billion) officially in opposition to the death penalty. Article appears to be in decent shape. Side note- I prefer the alt blurb as the original is a bit unweildy and longer than it needs to be. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:57, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support alt blurb per Ad Orientem.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 20:01, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I doubt that this is really going to have a big impact. People with sincerely-held opinions on the matter are unlikely to change their mind because of this. Lepricavark (talk) 20:03, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose the entire "Aquinas" section has a single ref, and it's in friggin' Latin. "Roman Catechism" has a single ref and it's broken. We can do better. It pains me, but this is in the news, so I'd support if the article were improved. --LaserLegs (talk) 20:51, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Stormy Clouds and Lepricavark, notable but this is nonetheless the Catholic Church annoucing it’s opposition to Capital Punishment. In addition, it is the governments of the world’s nations that control the position of the death penalty, not the church, in other words the influence will almost certainly be minimal at most with no major impact. SamaranEmerald (talk) 20:55, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, may bear fruit, may not. Still a major doctrinal change in a religious branch with 1.299 billion members. Perhaps a defining moment in the papacy of Pope Francis. Also the promise of a push for global abolition. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:15, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose the Catholic Church does not control whether the death penalty should be administered across the world. Will likely have no significant impact on the fate of capital punishment, and become forgotten by the public eye within days. Kirliator (talk) 21:22, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's a religious topic, not a governmental or civil one. Regardless, this will still have a major influence. IcierJacks (talk) 21:26, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • Being notable does not automatically make an event automatically ITN worthy, several users have noted in the past that even the most arcane, barely notable news items have been posted onto ITN in the past; likewise there have been ones that recieve widespread coverage, yet do not get posted amidst a number of arguments. Kirliator (talk) 21:37, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per Martinevans123. It's "just" the action of a single religious leader in one of the world's many religions, but there are 1.3 billion Catholics in the world. Banedon (talk) 23:51, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I think this is very notable, and the article is pretty good. Davey2116 (talk) 00:25, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I take it this means we're not burning any more heretics at the stake. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:41, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support on significance. This has been all over the news I've read today, and I read a variety of sources. It's impact is yet to be determined, but the potential is huge, the decision is significant in and of itself as a doctrinal change for a huge religious group, and there's no way we'd be in a position to support this at a point when the impact is measurable. Vanamonde (talk) 04:50, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I rarely support posting a statement from a public figure but I think an exception can be made here because Pope Francis has huge political and religious influence globally and the statement is an extremely significant and unprecedented point of view. EternalNomad (talk) 05:08, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose a statement from a religious leader with no power to influence capital punishment. This will not make any noticeable difference to the number of people executed worldwide - which is dominated by China, Iran, Saudi Arabia and North Korea, countries which are not going to be swayed by a Catholic pronouncement. Modest Genius talk 10:24, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose according to the death penalty article, more the 60% of the world’s population lives in nations that still use the death penalty, many of which are NOT Christian majority nations (e.g. China, Saudi Arabia, and North Korea), so the influence on abotion of the cruel but otherwise legal policy will likely have next to no impact in the world. Python Dan (talk) 10:40, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • So could you tell us what percentage of the earth's population live in countries which ARE Christian and which DO use the death penalty? Just wondering, not that it really influnces what is "in the news". Martinevans123 (talk) 10:50, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Countries that are predominately Catholic and enforce the death penalty make up 0.295% of the world population. If you expand this to countries that are predominately Christian (Catholic + Protestant), then it will be 4.682% of the world's population, with the majority of this figure coming from the United States alone (4.29% of the world's population). Databased (talk) 11:38, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Anyone else think he was targeting this at the 80 million Catholics that are enabling the so-called "Philippine Drug War?" ghost 11:22, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That would explain all those white vans making late-night deliveries to the Vatican? But seriously, that topic does seem to be on Francis' agenda. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:20, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Correct, a lot of people seem to think I'm trying to say it is notable because it would change governmental laws. I said it is notable because of social and theological reasons. IcierJacks (talk) 21:15, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I agree with those above that this is not of sufficient importance to post, as it is highly unlikely to change the perspectives of those who actually control whether the death penalty is used. Arguments to the contrary are not convincing per WP:CRYSTAL. Gluons12 ☢|☕ 19:45, 3 August 2018 (UTC).[reply]
  • A possible change in governmental policy isn't the reason this is notable. It's notable from a theological perspective. A change in the Catholic catechism is extraordinary rare, even more so on a notable topic such as this. IcierJacks (talk) 21:11, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • If any change in the theological perspective of any large religious denomination is now notable, ITN will soon be packed with such nominations. The opinions of non-state actors on the death penalty are not notable because they are theological in nature. Even if it was the abolition of the death penalty in a large country that regularly uses it, I would still question its notability, as such changes have happened in many times in history. Gluons12 ☢|☕ 16:59, 4 August 2018 (UTC).[reply]
  • Non-state actors? Does that include ISIS? Or the Taliban? What if they came out with a statement tomorrow that capital punishment was wrong in all circumstances? I think that might just make the news. And you see the Catholic Church as just another "large religious denomination"? No distinctions to be made there all? Or how many "large" ones are there? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:28, 4 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@IcierJacks: - given your capacity as the nominator, your support is already assumed. Please retitle the above to Comment or Support as nom to distinguish it from a !vote, or weave it into your nominator's comments. Thanks, Stormy clouds (talk) 21:44, 3 August 2018 (UTC).[reply]
  • Neutral, but Oppose wikilinks to POV articles on Quality grounds, unless and until the POV is properly fixed. For instance, the main proposed blurb currently has this wikilink: abolished worldwide. That tells us "Currently, the large majority of countries have either abolished or discontinued the practice." This is arguably technically correct, but it is deeply misleading - it gives our readers the impression that capital punishment is some kind of minority aberration. Our readers could be forgiven for failing to understand that, for instance, as of 2017, 7 of the world's 8 most populous countries are retentionist, including the world's 3 largest alleged 'democracies' (India, USA, Indonesia), and those 7 already represent a majority (51.5%) of the World's population between them (and there are another 51 retentionist countries still to be added, including other populous countries such as Japan, Ethiopia, Egypt, Vietnam, etc, see List of countries by population (United Nations)). I did my bit to try to partly fix a similar problem at Capital_punishment#Capital_punishment_by_country by adding India to the list of notable exceptions. But I suspect that a serious attempt by me to fix it properly would involve quite a lot of work and would likely be defeated by those who presumably created the problem in the first place, so I almost certainly won't be attempting to do so myself (per WP:NOTCOMPULSORY and WP:BNO).Tlhslobus (talk) 03:18, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

August 1

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August 1, 2018 (2018-08-01) (Wednesday)
Arts and culture

Disasters and accidents

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

Science and technology
  • Researchers from Australia report the success of a plan to use mosquitoes infected with Wolbachia bacteria to prevent the spread of dengue fever in an Australian town, stating that they intend to bring the program to other locales. (BBC)
  • Reddit reports a data breach consisting of emails and usernames. The site states that the perpetrators had access to information on accounts which were subscribed to their newsletter between the 3rd and 17th of June, as well as those created between 2005 and 2007. (NBC)

(Posted) RD: Mary Carlisle

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Article: Mary Carlisle (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The Los Angeles Times
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Article updated and well sourced --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 22:24, 1 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Re-posted) Fields medal

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Article: Fields Medal (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ In mathematics, the Fields Medal is awarded to Caucher Birkar, Alessio Figalli, Peter Scholze and Akshay Venkatesh (Post)
News source(s): Guardian
Credits:

The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

Nominator's comments: This is the biggest prize in maths and on ITNR, but it's not obvious how we construct a blurb for four separate winners who are recognised for unrelated work. I was pleasantly surprised to find all four winners' articles are in decent shape, but none has more than a one sentence update. In 2014 we ended up using Fields medal as the bold link, after some debate, so I guess we should do the same again. Modest Genius talk 15:01, 1 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently no-one is looking at this nomination as it's so far down the page; marked (needs attention). Modest Genius talk 16:11, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've been peeking in a few times a day, but my prior position stands. We've omitted countless RDs of major celebrities because their lengthy articles were not up to snuff. There's nothing wrong with just not posting this. As an aside: where does it say unbolded links do not carry quality requirements? I'd be open to delinking the lesser articles. ghost 11:21, 7 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:In_the_news#Updated_content states that the quality requirements apply to the bold-linked article (only); ITN has always applied it that way. I don't see any quality concerns with Akshay Venkatesh, so this can be posted with just that as the bold link if required. Modest Genius talk 11:28, 7 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Modest Genius, it's nice to see that someone has noticed the work done on that article (for example, by JennyOz and myself). There are certainly more things that could be done but it is well past the start class it is rated and certainly main page ready, IMO. A blurb on just Venkatesh could say something about his work, too. EdChem (talk) 12:35, 7 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'll buy that - Support with the bold for Scholze and Venkatesh only. ghost 15:08, 7 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Thanks for your work in improving those two. -- Tavix (talk) 03:18, 8 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Zimbabwean general election, 2018

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Article: Zimbabwean general election, 2018 (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Emmerson Mnangagwa's ZANU-PF wins in the Zimbabwe general election. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ ZANU–PF wins a majority of seats in the Zimbabwean general election, with party leader Emmerson Mnangagwa remaining President of Zimbabwe
News source(s): BBC, Guardian, AP
Credits:

Article needs updating
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

 Sherenk1 (talk) 09:10, 1 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Juxlos It is unnecessary to say "support per ITNR" as ITNR means the merits are not in dispute. 331dot (talk) 09:45, 1 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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