Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Articles for creation/Archive 59

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Archive 59

Source Assessment Tables

This isn't really about AFC, but about a process that AFC reviewers are often involved in, and that is the creation of source assessment tables that are used in AFD. I had created a source assessment table in an AFD, and another editor observed that I had created it by hand, and suggested that I use a template for the purpose. I replied that I only appeared to have created it by hand, because I use the Excel2Wiki tool [1], which converts a spreadsheet to a Wiki table. There are at least two ways to create a cleanly formatted source assessment table. I have been using the Excel conversion tool for years and will continue to do so, and other editors have been using templates for years and will continue to do so. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:14, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads-up, I wasn't aware of this tool.

...and that now makes me wonder how many other great tools there are that I must be missing out on! -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 15:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I did this one recently. I used Template:Source assess table generated using the associated script. However, you have to paste all the URLs from the article into the form that the script displays, or directly into the generated table as I did, which is time-consuming especially if there are a lot of sources. It would be great if someone could produce a v2 of the script that automatically extracts the URLs from the sources and pre-populates the table with metadata from each source and a hyperlink. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 15:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

There's also Template:ORGCRIT assess table for assessing against NCORP. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 15:59, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Generally I think it would be great if we used these more often, particularly on drafts that have been hanging around for weeks or months because they are in the 'too difficult' pile. These often have a lot of sources to assess, and it is inefficient for successive reviewers to go through all the sources when the earlier reviewers could ideally have marked the ones that definitely did not contribute to notability, and then we could build up the table as a team effort / relay, and focus on the sources that are borderline. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 16:05, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, that would be a good idea. Someone could check particular types of source, like ones behind a paywall that they have access to. Others, non-English ones in a language they read. And so on. No one reviewer might want to check all the sources, but between a few of them they could cover the lot. Just (!) need to figure out a way to keep track of the citations so that when they change, the source table updates accordingly. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 16:11, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

@Curb Safe Charmer: I have combining User:Polygnotus/Scripts/SourceTable with the Source assess table on my todolist. Polygnotus (talk) 20:25, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

♥ Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 21:13, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I will note that the Excel to Wiki table is not specifically intended for use by reviewers, because it is meant for construction of tables for use in articles. Its use for assessing notability is a side benefit. For that reason, I have confidence that it has been thoroughly debugged. But any reviewer should be encouraged to use whatever tools they are familiar with. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:21, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Acceptance of Gerard Gertoux

I have an increasing feeling that this draft ought to have not been accepted, and yet I viewed it as having a better than 50% chance of survival. It may be that it is edited drastically by the community. I will not quarrel with AfD. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 16:11, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

No complaints from me, clearly this was thought about and it has multiple eyes on it now. Alpha3031 (t • c) 16:25, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

That was my intention, and I think it will have sufficient attention now. I hadn't realised there were pro and anti Gertoux factions. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 17:19, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

After much investigation and not a little editing of the accepted article I have concluded that my acceptance was in error. I have set out my rationale at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gerard Gertoux and invite opinions to keep or to delete. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 16:38, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Rarely have I seen an AfD so heavily and bizarrely defended by a creating editor! It's very hard to tell what the eventual consensus will be. I don't really care either way, though, 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 11:26, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

N Deleted at AfD. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 12:52, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Phantom!

Please will one of the more Sherlock Holmes folk amongst us find and sort out the phantom draft suggested to be in Category:Pending AfC submissions in userspace by Category:Pending AfC submissions? The latter suggests that one is present. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 18:10, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

I confirm I also see a phantom draft. qcne (talk) 18:20, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

From experience it is likely to be a stray hidden template related to AFC, or an AFC comment. It is unlikely to be particularly obvious. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 19:02, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Was hoping this meant a Phantom of the Opera themed AfC when I saw the section header on my watchlist :P CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 19:04, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Sing, my angel of music... --DoubleGrazing (talk) 19:17, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

I think it is more like Ruddigore 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 19:20, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

I think counting pages in categories is expensive, so the counts aren't always recalculated every time they change. I think they can become inaccurate. I think a WP:NULLEDIT to one of the pages currently in the category might force a recalculation, although I am not 100% sure. –Novem Linguae (talk) 19:29, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

I suspect it to be a real article causing the issue, potentially a user sandbox. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 22:33, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Tried the null edit. No difference, I'm afraid. Nor with a real edit prior to review. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 10:13, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

This is a bug that has been around for a while, every now and then a category count goes wrong by 1 (or I've only ever seen if off by one). If you see this database query the count is set against the table not generated on demand. Looking at the code it appears that the category page that the purge calls the category refresh as long as the count is less than 5000. However, doing a purge does not fix the issue, so another bug somewhere. There does appear to be a maintenance function cleanupEmptyCategories.php that would fix. KylieTastic (talk) 13:13, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

ok not a bug in the refresh code but a problem with duff data. A query of category links returns page 78323717 at the moment, but page_id 78323717 is not in the pages table. So the purge/refresh counts the categorylinks which while this phantom record exists will always be +1. We can see the categorylink was updated 2024-11-09 T22:23:45, the page has no revisions in the 78323717 (so deleted), so I looked in archive (which I didn't realise we could see) and the page title was User:SeeznTvUZ/sandbox which was deleted by Rsjaffe 22:23, 9 November 2024. see this quarry for how I found this.

So it's a bug in the way categorylinks are managed, maybe it was a race-condition, but one possible way to fix would be to undelete (assuming it keeps the old page_id) then do a purge or remove the AfC submission and then re-delete. KylieTastic (talk) 14:00, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Would someone with the necessary rights please try this?

@KylieTastic Somehow I knew it would be you who got the drains up on this. Awesome job. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 15:22, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, we had this issue with the copyvios (G12) category for a while, especially since it was deletion-prone. I couldn't for the life of me remember the cause, so thanks to Kylie. I'll take a look and see if I can sort out some un/re/deletions to clear things up. Primefac (talk) 17:03, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Whiiiich is now  Done. Primefac (talk) 17:05, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

"Who ya gonna call? Ghostbusters!!" 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 17:11, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

I got nerd sniped and spent a couple hours on this today. I couldn't reproduce this, but discovered there's an extension called mw:Extension:CategoryTree that is involved, and the code that generates the category counts is in the PHP back end of this extension. @KylieTastic, may want to consider filing a bug report and tagging it CategoryTree. –Novem Linguae (talk) 23:49, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Had to look that one up as it was new to me. Why do you think that is involved as it appears to just be a viewer and has no way to effect the data stored in categorylinks as far as I can see? As the extension page says: "extension provides a dynamic view" like this for the Category:Pending AfC submissions sub cats. KylieTastic (talk) 11:15, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

If that extension is not installed, the category counts don't display. So that extension is involved and I'd recommend tagging it in the Phab ticket. As for where the root cause code is, the buggy SQL code / cache code / algorithm / DeferredUpdate / job could be located in either the extension or MediaWiki core, depending on if the extension calls some code in MediaWiki core or just uses its own code. –Novem Linguae (talk) 13:49, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

ANI thread on AI-generated drafts

• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents § AI-generated articles by Tatar Russian

There are eight articles by the editor that was accepted. They should be re-checked for hoaxes and fake references. They are milhist articles with a lot of Cyrillic sources. Ca ^{talk to me!} 11:35, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikiproject AI cleanup was also notified. Ca ^{talk to me!} 11:37, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Blocked as sock and all articles and drafts deleted. KylieTastic (talk) 15:51, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

"Xxps" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Xxps has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 November 20 § Xxps until a consensus is reached. 65.92.246.77 (talk) 18:31, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Page Mover Moving a Sandbox to Draft Space

I have a question about AFCH reviewers who have the Page Mover privilege. If a reviewer is reviewing a user sandbox that has been tagged as submitted, standard procedure is to move the sandbox into draft space, with the appropriate title. My question is: Should the reviewer suppress redirect creation, or allow redirect creation? I became aware within the past 24 hours that different reviewers who have the page mover privilege have different practices. So, should the reviewer suppress redirect creation if they have the option (which is what Page Mover provides) to suppress redirect creation? Robert McClenon (talk) 04:31, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Notified: Wikipedia talk:Page mover. jlwoodwa (talk) 04:46, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Most commonly the move is within the draft space or from user sandbox/subpage to draft space, so I allow the redir.

I mainly suppress it when moving a draft that is on the actual user page; in that case I untick all the option boxes (redir, talk page, subpages).

I also suppress it when moving from the main space (or any other space from which redirs to drafts aren't allowed), but that's not what you were asking.

That's what I do. Now someone will hopefully tell us what should be done. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 06:40, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I think a page mover should always default to leaving a redirect. I think a page mover can only suppress the redirect if it qualifies for a CSD. In DoubleGrazing's example above, they correctly mention that you can suppress mainspace to draftspace (during draftification) since that is CSD R2. –Novem Linguae (talk) 07:20, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

When moving a draft from the actual user page to the draft space, if you don't suppress the redir it creates a mess. Anybody trying to then go to the user's user page ends up in the draft. (And the user talk page becomes the draft talk page, if you happen to move that along with the main page, which is what the default setting does.) That's why I only move the actual user page and don't allow the redir, and then manually move any WikiProject tags and other draft talk page content from the user's talk page to the draft talk page which I create. I then post a message on the user talk page telling them where I've moved the draft to, in case they can't otherwise work it out.

I don't know if this strictly complies with the page mover rules, but I'd argue it's what works best in practice, in terms of subsequent operation of the user's resultant user and user talk pages. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 07:39, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't think there is a standardised practice. My reading of policies when I first gotten the pagemover hat before becoming admin: WP:PMRC#9 allows suppression with appropriate CSD rationale. So page movers can suppress by applying CSD G7, author request rationale, since the redirect would have been created under their own usernames if not suppressed, although there is a question of WP:INVOLVED if someone wants to force the issue. Personally, I would suppress redirection if it is moving from the user's sandbox with an message be left on that editor's user talk page directing them to the draft space, because I have been pinged a couple of times before for AfDs for articles that were written over the redirect that were created in that editor's sandbox. – robertsky (talk) 09:46, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Yup, I dislike that if you move a sandbox and leave a redirect then they use the sandbox for the next draft you are now the 'creator'. I stopped moving them years ago for this reason and still don't as a page mover due to what appears to be a grey area in the policy. Personally I think not leaving a redirect from a sandbox to avoid future confusions is best as long as long as you leave a message about the move, but I'll continue to refrain unless there is a consensus that WP:PMRC#9 + G7 is valid reasoning. KylieTastic (talk) 10:04, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

WP:G7 says: For redirects created as a result of a page move, the mover must also have been the only substantive contributor to the pages before the move. So generally they aren't eligible for G7 and probably shouldn't be supressed. C F A 💬 15:28, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

nice catch. – robertsky (talk) 01:29, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

WP:PMRC does not really allow for redirect suppression when moving a sandbox (which is what Robert is asking about), and I don't think I've ever done it. I'm not really bothered by (or care about) whether I "created" a page then expanded and actually written by someone. Exceptions will always exist, but on the whole AFC reviewers should not be suppressing the creation of a redirect when they draftify a sandbox. Primefac (talk) 11:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

You're right, that is the specific question Robert asked. My fault for taking this on a tangent.

Specifically on that, I don't suppress the redir either, when moving from sandbox to draft:, although I do empathise with the point made about becoming the 'creator' of subsequent drafts from the sandbox. It is a bit annoying to receive notifications (AfD, pre-G13) for 'my' drafts which have nothing to do with me, because I (feel I) have to then go and notify the actual author myself. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 11:58, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

My practice is to leave a redirect unless a user: page at top level.

If User:Foo contains an article about Bar, I move User:Foo to Draft:Bar, do not leave a redirect, but am careful to untick SUBPAGES and Talk page.

I then tell User:Foo what I have done 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 15:36, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

@DoubleGrazing, Timtrent, and (from elsewhere) JJPMaster: I don't really see what WP:CSD it would fall under to delete move redirects from a main userpage to draftspace (and thus what basis there would be for redirect suppression per WP:PMRC). Does anyone think the following redirects are eligible for speedy deletion on that basis?

I would think that any concern about people visiting a userpage and being surprised to find they're redirected to a draft could be addressed by changing the resulting redirect to a soft redirect. Leaving no redirect behind makes it harder for logged-out editors to find a moved draft (since they only see the move and deletion logs for a page for 24 hours after the deletion or redirect suppression). SilverLocust 💬 08:34, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

@SilverLocust Thank you for the list. The pure User: page, User:Foo, as opposed to a user sandbox page, User:Foo/anything at all is deletable as an initial improper use of a user page. Customary rational is G6 (error).

Since redirects guide folk from places to paces, it is courteous to tell the editor where their work resides now.

Were this redirect to be left then every time we wish to see User:Foo we would see the work of Foo.

Your point about logged out editors is interesting. Current custom disregards that issue. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 09:01, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

If by emphasizing initial you mean that those redirects could've been speedied at the time they were moved but not now, note that {{db-error}} (in contrast to WP:R3) doesn't need to be a recent error, just an obvious error. Putting a draft in a location that is not preferred but also not disallowed – see WP:UP#What may I have in my user pages? ("Work in progress or material that you may come back to in future (usually on subpages)") – isn't what I would call an obvious error. SilverLocust 💬 09:18, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

@SilverLocust They shoudl have been deleted as part of the move by an editor wth page mover rights, or nominated for speedy deletion as part of the move by an editor without those rights. Doing it early or later is immaterial, but leaving them lying around serves to confuse. Courtesy dictates we notify the creating editor of the new locatiom 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 10:49, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

I cannot recall now why I underlined 'initial' whcih seems to be a self created nonsense! 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 10:51, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

I can't remember who told me to do what I do (suppress the redir); it probably happened when I first moved a draft from a main user page, after getting page mover rights, and created a mess. I vaguely remember asking (maybe at AN?) for help in sorting it out, and someone said next time just untick all the boxes, which made sense to me, so that's what I've done since. I don't recall anyone taking issue with this before, although I guess it's possible they just didn't come to me with their grievance.

The reason why it made/makes sense to me is, a redir is meant to be helpful in steering the user to where they want (or need, in case that's different) to go. If I want to check out User:Foo, and end up instead in an article created by Foo, I don't think the redir was helpful, because I neither wanted nor needed to see that article. (And if there are further moves, mergers, deletions, etc. involved, I might end up somewhere that has nothing at all to do with Foo.)

As for the scenario whereby someone comes to User:Foo looking for the draft that's no longer there, I assume in the majority of cases that someone is Foo (who else would assume there's a draft at User:Foo?), and they will find a message on their talk page informing them of the draft's new location. They can also still find it in their contributions log. Somehow I don't see this as a major problem?

I'm not at all suggesting that @SilverLocust's interpretation of the policy and guidance isn't correct here, I'm sure it is. I just think better guidance is needed in this area. (Specifically, I think we should say that the main user page should not redirect anywhere, other than to the user's talk page for those who prefer that. Also, that the same page should not to be used for article content development, that should be done on a subpage or in the draft space.) -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 10:19, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

AFCSW bug?

I came across this edit, where the user resubmitted a rejected draft. It doesn't look copy-pasted, the template is filled-in properly and the edit summary looks normal. A bug, maybe? '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk • contribs) 07:43, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

It's not really a bug; the submit wizard doesn't check if a draft has been rejected. They presumably clicked the "Submit for review" button on the {{draft article}} template and submitted it normally. C F A 14:13, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

That makes sense. A check seems like a good idea though. '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk • contribs) 14:17, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

cc SD0001 –Novem Linguae (talk) 11:56, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Rechecking reviews by new reviewer

Hi all, Royiswariii has recently started reviewing AfC drafts and has been making some incorrect declines. I've checked everything from Nov 14-18, and found enough mistakes that I think their whole record so far should be cross-checked by other reviewers. There's only about 80 left, so this shouldn't be too hard for us to get through. Reminder as always to keep things constructive. -- asilvering (talk) 22:42, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Note that they are still on the list at WP:AFCP, so it looks like we're in the "see how bad it is" phase rather than the "they already lost the perm and now we need to cleanup" phase.

Asilvering, want to provide some diffs of problems you've found so far? I see you posted a paragraph on their user talk talking about some of the problems. But they will probably need more detail to properly calibrate, and we'll probably need more detail to properly judge if this is a situation where we should consider more action or if this can be a learning experience for them. –Novem Linguae (talk) 07:27, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

"Learning experience" is my aim here. -- asilvering (talk) 17:02, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Hello, Asilvering! Please note that i am a probability participants here in AfC for 3-6 months and they will check wether will retain me or not. Also, I will defend myself that November 14-18 that "whole record" are all mistakes. I am based on the review guide and if I am mistaken, another reviewer can correct me if I am doing wrong or not, i am open to all feedbacks because I am PROBABILITY participants here. But, I will disagree that all records are wrong because some articles that I declined it's either wrong format of encyclopedic tone, not English written or no citations or failed in WP:GNG. Royiswariii Talk! 09:15, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Just to clarify, formatting issues alone should not be a reason to decline a draft. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 09:24, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

yes, that's my fault and i fix it. Royiswariii Talk! 09:28, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm aware you're on the probationary reviewer list. I didn't say your whole record was mistakes - just that I found enough mistakes in Nov 14-18 that the rest of the record should be checked. We don't want people giving up on their drafts because they received an incorrect decline. Please do keep reviewing, and incorporating any feedback you get as we recheck things. -- asilvering (talk) 17:07, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I've now gone through the rest, nothing left to do here. -- asilvering (talk) 13:22, 21 November 2024 (UTC)